| PS1NE | X | m | (Hugh, age unknown, moderator) unspecified |
| PS1NF | X | m | (Mr Boyd, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS1NG | X | m | (Mr Torrence, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS1NH | X | m | (Mr Forrester, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS1NJ | X | m | (Mr McGilvery, age unknown) unspecified |
| F86PS000 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| F86PS001 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| F86PS002 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| F86PS003 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| F86PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| F86PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[1] not in any way in competition with ni with er apostle's creed or anything else. [2] It's a quite different er er er er animal. [3] It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm ... er er er is erm ... out of a different background and that er ... compiled in a different context altogether, it's polemic law so often, this is doxological. [4] These are, we are saying here things that we rejoice to say and which we give glory to God. [5] It just has that particular slant, that particular emphasis. [6] So I would prefer to let you be the judge of it as it stands today. [7] Any discussion, if we enter into any discussion, we start tinkering with it and er we don't know where we'd end. [8] I leave it as it stands. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[9] May I ask the clerk to kindly read the addendum since we don't have it in print. ... |
| (F86PS001) |
[10] It is in the erm ... statement of faith to substitute for the phrase by his death on the cross ... the words he died on the cross for the sins of the world. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[11] Those who vote for that addendum would you please stand. [12] Those who vote for. [13] ... Would you please sit. [14] Thank you. [15] Those who vote against would you please stand. [16] ... I declare it has been carried against. [17] ... Any other contributions on deliverance number four? [...] ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[18] Ian number three two six. [19] A, a, a brief amendment Moderator er ... to the deliverance, not to the text of the statement. [20] I have sympathy for the view of the convenor that it has been er revised er enough. [21] Er it reads er to add to, an addendum to section four ... further instruct the panel when addressing concern for a modern confession of faith, to give consideration to the difficulties involved in common confession of faith ... today. [22] Er I think the panel have er ... admirably completed a difficult task in drawing together the, the statement of faith they have presented. [23] Er I'm impressed that they are willing to er potentially consider a, a further difficult task in drawing up a confession of faith. [24] Er ... perhaps we have not, up until this point, considered just how difficult that task is. [25] I think there are aspects of the world in which we live and, and er, in which the church lives which make common confession of faith particularly difficult er today. [26] We tend to conceive er generally of faith very much in personal terms, we see it as personal faith. [27] Er we think of the mission of the church very largely in terms of personal evangelism. [28] Er I think in an age of such individualism er the whole natu nature and possibility of common confession of faith becomes difficult er and I'd simply ask that, if it's going to go ahead and consider possibly a confession of faith, that the panel er might give consideration to the difficulties gen gen generally involved in er the, the question of common confession of faith today. [29] I move the amendment. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[30] He now informs me that he's willing to accept that addendum. [31] Is it the will of the assembly to accept that addendum? [32] ... Thank you. [33] D Dr ... |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[34] Number sixty, G F . [35] Moderator this is a, a new ... er for a new five. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[36] [...] haven't approved of number four yet. |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[37] Oh I'm sorry |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[38] We've still to, we've still to come to |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[39] I'm sorry |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[40] the gap between four and five. [41] ... Thank you. [42] ... Any more addendums and ... Are you making an amendment or an addendum? |
| Mr Forrester (PS1NH) |
[43] I just want to make a very brief comment first of all. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[44] Yes certainly. [45] Thank you. |
| Mr Forrester (PS1NH) |
[46] Number eleven, the name is Margaret . [47] I should like to congratulate the panel on doctrine on the very difficult job they did in handling all these responses from kirk session. [48] Our kirk session was one which objected very strenuously to the use seven times of the male ... pronoun in the section on the holy spirit. [49] ... I think what they have done reads beautifully as English ... is very profound theologically ... and it uses language that is not gender specific. [50] I congratulate them on that and hope that in the future they will carry on that practice. [51] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[52] Now I'm going to come now, I think, it will be the mind of the assembly to take the vote on, for deliverance number four and Mr 's counter motion. [53] And as I've indicated, I'm now going to ask the convenor to sum up. [54] ... You have the right of reply to Mr 's counter motion. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[55] Well Mr took a terrific swipe at us and I think I couldn't possibly enter into [laugh] the detail of controversy involved there. [56] I th stick to my former line I think that ... we've all had a look at this, er we, I believe it's a useful, serviceable instrument and I rest my case. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[57] Thank you. [58] ... Now could we just hear Mr 's counter motion again please Mr . [59] Then I'll call a vote for the deliverance or against the counter motion. ... |
| Mr McGilvery (PS1NJ) |
[60] Moderator the counter motion is in section four as it stands to stop ... in the second line after the word commentary. [61] Delete all the words after commentary. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[62] Thank you. [63] ... Now we have the deliverance number four before us in print as the motion. [64] ... Could I ask those who wish to vote for the motion, deliverance number four as in print on page one eight five, to stand please. [65] ... Thank you. [66] Those wishing to vote now for the counter motion in the name of Mr to please stand. [67] Thank you. [68] I declare that the motion has been carried, that is the deliverance as in print, number four on page one eight five. [69] Now we've quite a ... we, we have first of all, in the light green papers ... notice of motion from Mr Ainsley of moving a new five. [70] I've also heard Dr wishing to move a new five, Dr I think yours will be five B, and I call first of all on Mr . |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[71] Moderator [...] |
| (F86PS003) |
[72] Mr six four eight. [73] This brilliant piece of oratory which I have in my hand here, in addition to many other valuable insights, contains three alternative definitions of faith, two gentle digs at Professor , and one definitive statement of when the third millennium begins. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS003) |
[74] However I am not so enamoured of the sound of my own voice that, bearing in mind what er Dr has said about the amount of business, I would insist on inflicting it upon it if someone would be prepared to second it and the convenor and the assembly be prepared to accept it. [75] Accordingly I formally move it, but if the a that acceptance is not forthcoming, then I would have to deliver my speech. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[76] Mr I really should say Ainsley, it's just like being back [laughing] in Trinity College [] with you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[77] Could I have a comment from the convenor. [78] ... Simply to indicate ... what your mind is. [79] Not just [...] |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[80] I think we'd be er prepared to accept this at, what's asked for is a feasibility study, no more than that in the first instance and I think we'd be prepared to accept. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[81] Is it the mind of the assembly that we accept this? [82] Thank you Mr for arranging your argument that way. [83] Dr |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[84] Dr you've a new number five. ... |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[85] Sixty, |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[86] So you've a new number six now |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[87] This ... very brief motion I've discussed with the convenor who will accept it and also ... with the general secretary of worl of the board of the world mission who ... was ready also to co-operate with it. [88] The ... my ... proposal is simply this ... consider the feasibility of a theological examination of anti-semitism. [89] ... Just like that, without any, any restriction. [90] Now I do this sir, because last week ... in the council of Christian and Jews in Edinburgh we had one of the profoundest meetings I've been at, in which very distinguished people, Jews ... and er ... er Christians ... were concerned with the fact that anti-semitism, at the very bottom, is ... anti-God, it opposed to revelation. [91] And behind all ... the ethnic and ... sociological and other religious elements, there is something very deep, and this struck a deep chord with me. [92] When I was a student in Germany ... and encountering fierce anti-semitism ... and a fierce anti-Jewish relations ... I, I soon realised that at the back of this was a direct attack upon the concrete revelation of God in history through Israel and the church, which called in question German nationalism, German blood and soil. [93] Now I believe that the time has come for us to think again about the theological side, the theological ... er and I make this proposal ... consider the feasibility of a theological examination ... anti- semitism ... and the convenor is ready to accept it ... Thank you sir. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[94] Thank you. [95] Dr do you accept? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[96] Yes, may I just say a word here [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[97] Yes you may. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[98] Moderator we, we do accept this but maybe I could er say just a word to the assembly about the workload as it were of this panel on doctrine. [99] If you look at er ... the erm ... the er ... papers, what's the book called, the order of proceedings, you'll discover that we are quite a small body of four ... a convenor, vice convenor ... four ministers ... four elders ... four others ... and one representative from each of the four faculties erm of divinity.. from those members of the faculty who are members of the Church of Scotland. [100] Now that number is small and decreasing it seems to me. [101] Er furthermore er so the number upon whom we can draw is, is really minimal, and we do depend heavily on the help of the professional theologians, though we're all theologians you know I, I subscribe to the idea that we're all theologians, I won't listen to these people who say I'm no theologian. [102] We're all theologians, but we do obviously depend heavily on the help of the professionals. [103] Er that help is, there are fewer to draw from,i it's also far more difficult for them to spare the time, the pressures on the academics are considerable nowadays. [104] So ... er as I say we do accept this but we have to er be careful just how much we undertake, and mercifully on this case there is no time limit,a and also I think we have the assurance from the board of world mission and unity, that they and any others who are, have something to offer, will help us. [105] So [...] on that understanding I accept. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[106] Is it the will of the general assembly so to accept ... and approve? [107] ... Do you wish to speak against? ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[108] I wish to suggest an addendum. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[109] To Dr ... 's ... [...] thank you. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[110] four four two. [111] Moderator I declare my interest as a member of the panel on doctrine ... but I wanted to enquire whether Professor would be willing to include ... not only the problem of anti-semitism ... but what seems to me to be the opposite problem which also exists today, which is the problem of Zionism. [112] And I wonder if we do not need to enquire into the theological basis of both. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[113] Dr , would you include that within your statement? |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[114] No ... this would, this would be mixing up two very different things. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[115] [...] that's right. |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[116] Like oil and water. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[117] S so [...] |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[118] [...] has to be done, I wouldn't agree with it. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[119] I'm just asking ... Professor for my own clarification at this stage, and it is that he does not agree to accept Mr 's addendum. [120] And so ... therefore I have to ask now ... is there anybody willing to second Mr 's addendum? [121] It is being seconded. [122] Any discussion? [123] ... Then we have a vote as to whether to accept or not to accept Mr 's addendum. [124] Could I ask the clerk to read it please ... or to recall ... oh sorry, the convenor, yes indeed. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[125] I tend, Moderator, to Professor 's view that this complicates the issue and we'd be better to deal with anti-semitism by itself first of all. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[126] Shall we, shall we still, we ... w w we still have the, the, the issue of voting now for or against Mr 's addendum. [127] And I wonder if one of the clerks could just put it before us please. ... |
| (F86PS001) |
[128] The ... this amendment Moderator is simply to add to what we've already agreed ... the er feasibility of a theological examination, not only on anti-semitism but also Zionism. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[129] Those voting for Mr 's addendum on Zionism would you please stand. [130] ... Thank you. [131] Those voting against. [132] ... It is carried against, and so I come back to the new ... erm ... section being proposed by Professor on anti-semitism and concurred by the convenor, Dr , and put it to the assembly. [133] Is that approved by the assembly that that is then given to the panel as a new responsibility? [134] ... Now we come in the er blue papers page sixty five to the notice of two new sections six and seven in the name of ... Mr , and I'd ask Mr to speak to these please. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[135] David one six three. [136] Moderator ... I'm going to ask the general assembly to turn their mind to quite a different subject now. [137] We've had baptism, we've had statement of faith, we've had anti-semitism ... we're going to think now about intercommunion ... all under the umbrella of the panel of doctrine. [138] Moderator I refer commissions t commissioners to appendix two on page one hundred and ninety one of the blue book. [139] There we read in line seven of the desirability of retaining a bilateral contact between our two churches on matters of doctrine ... a desire express, I'm glad to note, by our Roman Catholic friends and that's good. [140] Then in the last two lines of the appendix I read ... the panel on doctrine seeks permission for the joint commission to meet twice yearly ... as necessary ... to study documents of doctrinal interest. [141] I don't think that's quite so good and why ... because of its evident ab absence of the note of urgency and its lack of specifics. [142] Moderator ... all the main line churches have recognized a divine call to unity throughout this century. [143] But the century is fast running out. [144] While there are glimmers of light ... the establishment of ACT two years ago ... increasing ecumenical activities at grass roots level, some referred to by Bishop this morning ... I believe that the times require a note of urgency in our response to God's call. [145] And God's world in its great need requires a visible sign that we are all truly united and no longer divided in our allegiance to Christ as lord. [146] ... Growing together is a step by step process. [147] I say real progress has been made ... but today I am asking you to think about the next step ... a step that I am sure we all feel is at the heart of the matter ... a transforming step ... perhaps the critical step that will guarantee ultimate success in fulfilling god's loving will for his church. [148] The next breakthrough to my mind ... centres around the lord's table. [149] Our Roman Catholic friends already recognize our common baptism into Christ. [150] They recognize also that we are together the body of Christ in the world, I hear them saying so now. [151] So it would seem logical that the invitation to the lord's table should be reciprocal, and why is it not? [152] An Archbishop in the hierarchy has said to me recently ... oh I feel the pain but Rome does not permit it. [153] You've all heard that and I've heard it for about thirty years now. [154] Now that reason without large expansion cannot satisfy fellow Christians. [155] And is that really the case? [156] Vatican two, in the decree on ecumenism number eight, certainly says that sharing in the sacrament should not be indiscriminate. [157] I quote further ... it should only be used to signify the unity of the church ... and it should provide a sharing in the means of grace. [158] The gaining of a needed grace sometimes commends it. [159] Now all that from Vatican two and its decree. [160] Now with that statement as guide, discretion is left to the local bishop. [161] It is happening now not just occasionally but increasingly on the continent, but not yet here in Scotland. [162] There is also the oft repeated argument that we should not sit down together at the table until after unity is accomplished. [163] But I repeat ... if we are united in a common baptism ... united together as the body of Christ in the world ... the primary union in Christ is acknowledged. [164] Unity of organization which by its nature will be a very longterm matter ... and unity in doctrines not of the substance of the faith, and we all know of significant divisions there, do not affect the central doctrine. [165] And here I come to the crux of what I want to say. [166] ... What really matters is whether or not we all believe certain essentials about the sacraments. [167] That the Lord Jesus is always the host at his table ... present in our midst as we do as he commanded. [168] That in and under the bread and wine, as Calvin put it, set apart from common use to this holy use to represent his body and blood, he feeds us with his very life ... I in you and you in me, I the vine and you the branches. [169] No chemical change takes place in the bread and the wine, nor in ourselves. [170] Now that is accepted by all and I've discussed it recently I say with one of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. [171] ... Transubstantiation ... now listen carefully ... I have discovered this in conversation to be a matter of semantics ... of words. [172] I've said to my brother Roman Catholic ... if what you are saying is that the substance of the godhead is in a mystery transferred into our substance ... that is to say that we are recipitents ... recipients in the sacrament of the divine life ... then we go out in faith together believing the same essential. [173] If that is so, and it does seem to be so, is it not time that we rejoice together while we are being nourished together at his table. [174] I am asking today that our commissioners ask the Scottish bishops, in accordance with the permission granted in Vatican two's decree, to allow an open table on ecumenical occasions. [175] Now note I'm not asking at this point in time for a general opening. [176] Our own reform in the matter needs ... clearer definition and our people need a lot of teaching and the panel could help us there. [177] My fi five minutes are now just about up so I finish moderator [bell ring] by affirming that [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[178] I'm allowed one more minute after the bell. [179] I finish Moderator affirming that if we are in communion with Jesus Christ ... we are necessarily in communion with one other. [180] All other doctrines are very secondary to that, and the question is ... are we to express that reality ... or must we continue to obscure it. [181] ... We must express it for the world to see and to believe. [182] I plead with our commissioners and their counterparts in the Roman Catholic side to concentrate on this issue and not to dally ... for this I believe is the golden key to that greater, completer, richer and more effective church that is surely coming under God. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[183] Is this seconded? [184] ... Thank you. [185] Could I ask the convenor just to make a statement. [186] It's not, it's not his summing up, it's just a point of clarification to indicate whether he may or may not accept this. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[187] Moderator I think I'm wholly in sympathy with this. [188] One thing er pu puzzles me a little and gives me a little difficulty, that is ... erm the addendum refers to an invitation to all baptised members. [189] I imagine communicant members would make this a little easier. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[190] Mr any comment? |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[191] I'd be happy about that. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[192] You'll be happy with that, thank you. [193] And so we |
| (F86PS000) |
[194] Moderator |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[195] Yes? |
| (F86PS000) | [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[196] Of course you can, you're a delegate and entitled to speak Bishop at any time. ... |
| (F86PS000) |
[197] one two eight nine I think. [198] Er |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS000) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[199] Twelve eighty nine sounds more historical. |
| (F86PS000) |
[200] Twelve eighty nine. [201] I'm sure there's some awful battle where we got ... er knocked about but still |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] ... |
| (F86PS000) |
[202] I hope that's not a ... presage of what's gonna happen now. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS000) |
[203] [laugh] I'm rather unprepared for this one admittedly, but it seemed to me that if you're quoting a member of the absent hierarchy, you might as well hear er from, from a present member. [204] Erm ... certainly I will carry back to my fellow bishops ... what is expressed here, concern about the ... question of sacramental intercommunion. [205] I would like to say one or two things which might help in understanding. [206] One is that it isn't all just a question of the Scottish hierarchy being thralled to Rome in such a way that it cannot do what it wants. [207] Nor is it a question of our seeking a dispensation from the holy see ... to accede to some request locally. [208] The question that we are looking at is a question, not simply of discipline, but a matter that depends on our understanding, not just of the eucharist, but of the nature of the church. [209] And so we're talking not just about sacramental communion, but ecclesial communion. [210] And these are matters that we are, and will be for the future ... the immediate future and perhaps for the more distant future ... thoroughly engaged upon ... because there are very deep questions here ... and the sacramental one hinges upon the ecclesial one. [211] Now as regards the actual ... well perhaps I should add to that, that there are two principles if you like in the theological field which govern the practice of the church. [212] One is the principle that given ecclesial communion, that ecclesial communion is represented, is signified, is sacramentalized, is celebrated ... in, at the lord's table. [213] ... Now that is not to deny that it is in effect surely of bringing Christians together, but there are certain questions. [214] At what point do you, in all honesty and sincerity ... er ... celebrate a sacrament which is a sacrament of giving unity as well as bringing unity forward. [215] The other principle is the principle of particular need. [216] In other words, sacramenta procta hominas the sacraments are for the good of men and woman, of course the hominas in Latin includes both, it's inclusive language for the sake of er well of certain persons who will be picking me up |
| Hugh (PS1NE) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS000) |
[217] [laugh] And that is why there are occasions, particularly on the continent, when Christians from other denominations are positively welcomed at the table. [218] Because the local church recognizes in the person of its priest or bishop ... their need for the sacrament, and the unavailability of the sacrament within their own communion. [219] And those two principles are the governing principles at present in the practice of the Catholic Church with regard to admission to the sacrament. [220] Let me finish in a very positive note in saying that I'm as concerned as the speaker to which I reply that that day will be reached and reached soon, please God, when we can sit down together and share fully in the sacrament of the lord's supper. [221] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[222] Any other ... any other discussion? [223] [...] ... Mr ... |
| (F86PS001) |
[224] Moderator, thirteen forty two and convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. [225] To remind the assembly that this is a matter which was raised I think by Mr a couple of years ago and when a very similar motion was accepted by the Board er asking us to raise this matter with the ... the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Scotland, which we did ... er we know that there has been attention paid to this by the, the hierarchy. [226] ... About six months ago, our deputy general secretary wrote to Monseigneur , the general secretary of the bishops conference, and er ... told him that we hoped progress was being made, referred in particular to the degree of consensus that had been ... a arrived at in the baptism eucharist and ministry document and er also to the difference that had been made by the coming into being of ACTS and its commission on unity faith and order ... and we had a reply to that er a letter from Monseigneur assuring as that the hierarchy were taking this seriously, that they were discussing it er [clears throat] amongst themselves in Scotland and were also in discussion with Rome on the subject as well. [227] Er and as would have been noted in the ... in our report to this general assembly on page four hundred and nine, we say at the end of er the paragraph in the middle of the ... the page in which we are referring to ACTS and its commissions, in this connection it should be noted that the church's approach to the Roman Catholic bishops conference of Scotland on the question of intercommunion is under discussion in that conference and in the ACTS commission on unity faith and order. [228] So although there is not as yet any definitive question, any definitive answer to this same question which was raised by Mr a couple of years ago, it is under consideration and we would hope that the sort of answer which he is hoping for might be forthcoming from that source. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[229] If the convenor is willing to accept this and I'm aware of the time, if anybody wishes to strongly speak to a new point or a new angle on this matter, I'd really prefer to call on the convenor to sum up. [230] Would that be the will of the assembly? [231] Thank you. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[232] Moderator it's a great joy to hear Bishop speaking in this particular context on this subject. [233] He and I enjoy very happy ecumenical relations and personal friendship and we've argued this out in our respective cathedrals before now. [234] Erm I, he has these two principles and we respect them. [235] I think there are other two principles though which I hope you would feel we er should respect. [236] One is that erm in this matter, especially the matter sacramental, we are always anticipating ... when every time we celebrate the lord's supper we anticipate ... the marriage feast of the lamb. [237] We don't wait till the kingdom comes before we celebrate, we celebrate now in joyful anticipation. [238] Our lord taught us to pray er er give us this day our daily bread but we all know when we've read our commentaries that the word epusios means of tomorrow, give us today the bread of tomorrow. [239] And therefore I think this principle of anticipation i is also an equally valid er er principle that we, we should er er look forward in faith to the day when we celebrate, and on occasions we should be able to anticipate that unity. [240] Furthermore, we believe that the very celebrating of the sacrament does bring us more speedily on the way to that longed for unity. [241] I think it's quite proper for us to be importunate and hammer on the door and say it again as, as the deliverance would have us say, and I'm sure our Roman friends will understand our importunity. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[242] Now to the assembly these new sections six and seven, is it the mind of the assembly to accept these? [243] Thank you. [244] Is it the mind of the assembly to accept the deliverance as amended as a whole now? [245] Thank you. [246] Dr before we pass to other business, I would like to thank you very much indeed for all the work that the very small size panel on doctrine has carried out for the good of the assembly and the work of the church. [247] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[248] A call for the report on the Board of Social R Responsibility. ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[249] Moderator four hundred and seventy five. [250] ... Moderator I reported to the general assembly last year that the Board of Social Responsibility had planned a deficit on its operation of thirty eight eventide homes ... amounting to a little over two million pounds. [251] At that time I explained that although the Board's weekly rate on these homes was low, due to our policy of not charging any element for capital in the rate we calculate, the Department of Social Security made available to elderly people in residential care in the community an allowance in that year of forty pounds and in this present year of fifty five pounds per week ... below the cost of such care in any of our homes where the cost is already artificially depressed. [252] The Board's policy of completely absorbing all capital costs and charging nothing for income on capital amounts on average to a subsidy of ninety six pounds per resident per week. [253] And the Board thinks there's a reasonable subsidy to offer to its elderly residents. [254] It is with considerable regret that I now have to tell the general assembly that although other parts of the Board's work, and the Board's investicl invested capital have performed well from a financial point of view, the anticipated deficit on thirty eight eventide homes has been sustained. [255] Representations have been made and are being made to her majesty's government. [256] We see this underfunding of eventide care as limiting the choice available to people who have come to that point in their lives when they're making decisions about the sort of care that they will next require. [257] It is our hope that the Department of Social Security will move in keeping with the findings of the all party parliamentary select committee on social security to correct this underfunding before the responsibility for meeting the cost of residential care in the community is transferred from the D S S to local authorities a year from now. [258] In the meantime, the Board is looking for ways to fund the deficit should it continue, but has decided not to charge the deficit as an additional burden upon those residents who are able to pay their own way from their own resources, and not to move from its established principle of offering care to those most in need towards a degenerate policy of offering care only to those who are most able to pay. [259] Needless to say, needless to say this deficit has not involved any additional call whatsoever upon the mission and aid fund of the church ... from which the Board receives an annual contribution of around four hundred thousand pounds towards its overall budget of twenty million pounds. [260] Moderator that works out at a contribution of seventy five pence per minute towards the actual cost of our operation of forty pounds and twenty three pence per minute. [261] The Board has met the deficit entirely from its own resources and has had to budget, as I've said, a continuing deficit into the current financial year. [262] All other parts of the Board's work have been budgeted within acceptable limits. [263] And I should say to the general assembly that the Board's four homes for people with senile dementia are differently funded and any deficits there are made up by grants from health boards and social work departments which are prohibited from making up the deficit in eventide care. [264] During nineteen ninety one the Board has been delighted to open new areas of work in Inverness where our first designated place and associated hostel was opened on a most happened happy day by Sir Russell . [265] In Elderslie near Paisley ... where Lady the wife of last year's Lord High Commissioner opened our fourth senile dementia unit. [266] In Haddington in, in East Lothian where Tyne Park House now offers a mental health service within that county. [267] But while new projects were opening, the Board was forced to depart from its Shetland Islands project which had been undertaken at the invitation of the Shetland Islands Council and the Island Council Charitable Trust. [268] This work was undertaken on the assurance from the Council and Charitable Trust that those bodies would resp would, would respect the Board's employment policy. [269] In the event, although both ... Charitable Trust and Council had given assent to the first advert on the policy agreed, they baulked at the second wave of recruiting, and sought to change the basis of our agreement. [270] Even going to the length of alleging in the public press that it was the Board which was in breach of its contract. [271] As we indicate to the general assembly in the printed report, the Board could have insisted on its rights under contract made with those bodies and the Board was confident that it would have won any action in the courts. [272] But to pursue this matter would have delayed for some years the opening of much needed services. [273] It is nonetheless a matter of deep regret that the Board has had to depart from this project ... and that the first of these care centres on Whalsay, which would have been opened in November nineteen ninety one had the agreement been left unaltered, was still not open at the beginning of this month. [274] Nonetheless, we take some satisfaction from the knowledge that the involvement of the Board did break the logjam at the earlier stage of this project, and we're able to report that the Shetland Island Council Charitable Trust has recognized the work of the ... done by the Board in its final settlement of its account with us. [275] Last year the general assembly decided nem con without demur ... on the advice of the assembly council that the Board of Social Responsibility should move away from the church's office in George Street. [276] And we now report that the arrangements towards this move are well on track for execution this year, some time ahead of the timescale that we indicated last year. [277] This will liberate much needed space in one two one, and enable the Board to bring together its central administration in one place for the first time ever. [278] In this time of new opportunity, as the Board is making arrangements to move to its new home and looking to developments in every area of service, we've also recognized that opportunities abound for local parish initiatives to attract funding from a variety of places. [279] For this reason, the Board has sought to liaise with such local initiatives and to ensure that wherever possible, the expertise and experience of the Board will be made available to them. [280] One area in which local initiatives within the church have proved invaluable has been in the delivery of service to people with H I V or AIDS and to their families, and to their loved ones. [281] Last year the general assembly gave to the Board of Social Responsibility a task of coordinating the work of the church in this field and we are proud now to be able to report to the general assembly that the work done by the assembly's various Boards and by numerous local initiatives make the Church of Scotland the nation's leading provider of services to the victims of H I V and to their families ... delivering both the most extensive and the most comprehensive service to these people within Scotland. [282] ... Although the church has traditionally been reluctant to expose those to whom it delivers this service to public attention, the general assembly ought to know of the scale of the kirk's response. [283] And I pay tribute now to all those parish and local church initiatives, to all the work done by the major Boards of the church and of course, to those who deliver the service ... on behalf and in the name of the Board of Social Responsibility. [284] ... In the field of addiction to alcohol and other drugs, the Board has been glad to see the wholly responsible position taken by the National Union of Students in its response to the pressures on young people to drink. [285] The Board has been delighted to congratulate her majesty's government er in its insistence that factors such as public order should be taken into account in the fixing of a Europe wide alcohol pricing policy. [286] And in response to the growing number of women presenting with problems associated with alcohol dependence, the Board in its report this year makes some moderate and practical proposals about the way in which alcohol might responsibly be marketed. [287] It is ... in its work on health and healing, the Board of Social Responsibility has for some years now been concerned with the provision of training conferences for ministers and others involved in this aspect of the church's commission. [288] When this particular work was added to the Board's remit, it was our intention to offer the church advice under our social interest section and important reports were prepared and submitted to the general assembly and accepted. [289] But the Board now asks the general assembly to look again at this part of our remit and to form a judgment about where this work should be most effectively done in future. [290] We ask the general assembly to remit to the assembly council to give attention to the placing of health and healing within the overall work of the church and to report to next year's general assembly on where they think this remit should most effectively be discharged. [291] In nineteen ninety ... the general assembly instructed the panel on doctrine to consider anew the question of the Christian doctrine of marriage, and to undertake this work in consultation amongst others with the Board of Social Responsibility. [292] This consultation has been effected through the Board's own study group on family matters, whose work the Board reports to this general assembly. [293] The Board is happy to commend this work to the church and directs the church's attention to the contemporary statement of the Christian ideal of the family contained within that report. [294] In making these statements the church is not standing aloof from the unconverted ... instructing them on how they ought to live their lives ... rather the church is speaking to itself, holding before all its members the id the ideal of what we believe God has taught in his word about the way in which people ought to live. [295] In that sense, our failure to measure up to that ideal can be seen, can be measured, can be understood, and the strength of the holy spirit can be sought as we all strive in his power not to fail in future. [296] And in saying this sort of thing to its own members, the church also invites the rest of the community to find for itself, people within the community to find for themselves, the positive benefits of living in obedience to the word of God. [297] In addition to this major report on the Christian family, which is the Board's contribution to the twin track work with the panel on doctrine, the Board also offers an interim report on young people in the media, and its final report presaged at last year's general assembly on ritual abuse. [298] Moderator in commending these reports to the general assembly and in particular, in presenting its work on ritual abuse, the Board is conscious of its deep indebtedness to those who have looked on its behalf at the mixture of evidence and conjecture on this most disturbing area of modern human depravity. [299] ... Moderator it's hard within the space of these few minutes to give a sense of the breadth of the Board's work. [300] And in focusing on some problem areas it's possible to fail to give an impression of the enormous privilege it is to serve the church and her lord in social responsibility. [301] But I would not be true to myself if I did not record my own thanks to all who serve on the Board ... for their hard and devoted work ... and at this time, to take a moment to thank the retiring vice convenor Bill for his work, his prayers, his support, his wisdom and his fellowship over the many years that he and I have served together. [302] Moderator I submit the report and I move the deliverance. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[303] Is it seconded? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[304] Seconded. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[305] Questions to the convenor? [306] Yes? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [...] ... |
| Mr Torrence (PS1NG) |
[307] nine hundred and forty. [308] My question concerns the Shetland Island project and the question is this ... how much has the withdrawal of the Board of Social Responsibility from the Shetland Islands project got to do with the Board's policy on ... social responsibility appointed staff being sympathetic to the Christian faith, and how much has it got to do with the fact that the Shetland Islands Council no longer need the Board of Social Responsibility to be able to spend charitable trust money, in other words oil money, without jeopardizing community charge support grant? [309] I was six and a half years the, the minister of Whalsay and Skerries where the first ... er ... centre h ha has been built and there was rejoicing in that community that the ... that social responsibility had been invited by the council to join in this work. [310] And er at that time when it was being mooted the, the council could not spend this charitable trust money without putting into jeopardy vast sums of money from revenue grant |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[311] [...] speaker that you've put your questions ... and I think they're sufficiently clear for the convenor to reply. ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[312] Yes Moderator Mr is known to the Board and his support was greatly appreciated erm when these projects were being mooted. [313] Erm I don't know the answer to his question but I think he's put his finger upon a point. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[314] Further questions? [315] Thank you. |
| Mr Forrester (PS1NH) |
[316] seven three two. [317] I have a brief question and one comment. [318] I look with pleasure to see that the asse |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[319] Please may I ask you sir to ... limit yourself to your question. |
| Mr Forrester (PS1NH) |
[320] Yes well ... the, the question is that I notice in the assets that investments at cost were twenty five million, the present market value is twenty eight million, indeed since that's been written it may even be more ... and when I looked down to the other side of the accounts, I noticed interest on capital of twelve hundred and four pounds ... and I wonder where the interest from the twenty eight million has gone to. [321] Erm I s suspect that it's er the one million two hundred and forty two thousand transfer from general operating reserve ... is that figure ... but may I make one comment [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[322] [...] your question ... only |
| Mr Forrester (PS1NH) |
[323] That's the question [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[324] [...] ... Convenor will reply. |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[325] Yes Moderator the commissioner is mistaken, the investments at cost were seventeen million nine hundred and ninety seven pounds two hundred and ten. [326] Erm the market value he's right to say is now twenty eight million two hundred and twenty four pounds er two hundred and twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty four pounds erm and that's what's happened to the interest. [327] It's, it's, it's marched with the capital and that's why erm the capital value of our investments is so much higher than the cost. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[328] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[329] [...] one comment [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[330] No questions only at the moment. [331] There are a great many deliverances in due course to consider. ... |
| (F86PS002) |
[332] Five four eight . [333] Er Moderator you'll probably not let me speak either |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[334] but this is a quite serious problem and er I don't, I don't apologise for it because ... this is what's known as a donor card. [335] Now this assembly ... can I get a couple of minutes please? |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[336] Can you put your question. |
| (F86PS002) |
[337] Yeah I, but I mean I've ... but I've got to give you a small ... area of background. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[338] Well it's a very important subject. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[339] Let er me hear the question and I shall know if a background is required. |
| (F86PS002) |
[340] You won't understand the question without a |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[341] Moderator Mod Moderator [...] |
| (F86PS002) |
[342] a wee |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[343] Moderator questions are asked for clarification of points in the report at this stage, they're not asked, it's not general questions that we're into. |
| (F86PS002) |
[344] I, I mean I can understand all this but I'm, I'm just asking |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[345] I'm, I'm asking, I've been here since Saturday |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[346] now I've sat here |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] [applause] |
| (F86PS002) |
[347] I've sat here patiently, and I've lifti I've listened to all the briefly's ... and I think I'm due a brief word to the assembly |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[348] on this particular item which to me is very important. [349] There are people on waiting lists, and I just want the chance to say something on this subject which will take two minutes. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[350] You you're chance will come in due course sir when we're making comments but at the moment it's just [...] |
| (F86PS002) |
[351] But I'm [...] just now Moderator. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[352] I mean |
| (F86PS002) |
[353] If I don't g [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[354] I |
| (F86PS002) |
[355] I just |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[356] I think having ... I think having waited so patiently for so long that you can wait a little lo further. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[357] I must as ask |
| (F86PS002) |
[358] What |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[359] you to ... retain your seat meantime sir. |
| (F86PS002) |
[360] Could, could you give me a shout when I'm due? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] [applause] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[361] I [laugh] I er |
| (F86PS002) |
[362] This is really this is really just in case I fall asleep. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[363] I couldn't possibly forget you. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (F86PS002) |
[364] Thank you. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[365] Further questions. [366] Yes [...] |
| Mr McGilvery (PS1NJ) |
[367] three one four. [368] I'd ... I'd like to know the, the, the Board's |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Mr McGilvery (PS1NJ) |
[369] [laugh] I'd like to know the Board's position on fostering. [370] I ask this question purely and simply because of all the children's homes that are being closed, and these children need a caring and a happy home life ... and could the Board encourage church members to become foster parents? |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[371] An answer will come, yes? ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[372] Yes Moderator. [373] Erm it's now some years since the Board departed from most of its work with erm in children's homes, I think we have only one children's home now operating in Stonehaven. [374] Erm at that time erm we did erm report at some length on the question of fostering and exactly what the commissioner's asked for was the burden of the advice that we gave. ... |
| (F86PS003) |
[375] Moderator |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[376] Yes? |
| (F86PS003) |
[377] Er eighty seven. [378] Er this is a, this is a question concerning something which is not mentioned here, which I think should have been. [379] Erm ... the complete absence of any emphasis ... er in the deliverances on erm ... child abuse ... er child sexual abuse ... which is a most horrible sin. [380] This was er reported on ... a couple of years ago but we've heard nothing since, is there any action? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) | [...] |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[381] The convenor will answer, yes? |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[382] Yes moderator, erm last year, two year's ago the general assembly a very major report from the Board of Social Responsibility on the question of child abuse. [383] Erm we have produced a study pack which has been extremely well used within the church erm and is still being extremely well used. [384] It also contained erm guidelines erm er from Lord the then procurator now Lord Penrose erm on the way in which ministers ought to respond in cases of child abuse. [385] Erm having produced that report and having erm er done the follow up on it, it doesn't seem to me that it would be reasonable for the general assembly to expect that the Board would come back year after year with repetitions of what we've already said, and that's why the commissioner notices that erm we don't report this year on child abuse. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[386] Thank you. [387] Someone here I think? [388] Yes please ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[389] twelve thirty three, and if you look you'll see I'm from Orkney. [390] I, I'm a general practitioner and I would like to back up initially what the convenor has said about the study pack that has come on child abuse but I have a question. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[391] Could you put the question first please. |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[392] The question is why is there no mention in the paper on ritual abuse ... er of the use of general practitioners to assist ministers in areas of difficulty? ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[393] Thank you. ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[394] Yes Moderator I'm grateful to the commissioner for the, for the question. [395] Erm again this is something on which we've already advised ministers and in the context of the, the report on ritual abuse, specifically refers to the as,a as, as the context in which it's offered, to the c erm report on, on child abuse. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[396] Any further ... questions? [397] ... Yes? [398] Please ... Er I'll call you next, yes? |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[399] one O six O. [400] Moderator could the convenor tell us why the Board wishes to be discharged its remit on health and healing when it's been so successful in bringing this to the notice of the whole church? ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[401] [...] grateful to Mr for his very erm generous en endorsement of the work that the Board has done on health and healing. [402] As I said in pre presenting the Board's report, when this matter was first given to us, we were invited to advise the general assembly on matters relating to health and healing, and that we did. [403] At that time the general assembly didn't remove the remit from us and so we were emboldened by being allowed to continue erm to run some training conferences for ministers and others in the church who were involved in sharing this ministry of healing within the nation. [404] However th th the fit of that training work for ministers and others within the church has sat less and less easily with the Board's commission to advise the church, and that's our social interests commission, to advise the church erm on matters of social, ethical or moral importance within its remit. [405] And so because of that sense of ill ease of fit, we decided that perhaps it would be appropriate for the assembly council to look at where this work ought to most comfortably go. [406] If the assembly council decides to report to next year's general assembly that the Board of Social Responsibility is the best of all possible places for this work in training and advising ministers and others on health and healing, then we'll happily accept that. [407] ... But I don't think that will be the finding of the assembly council. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[408] Thank you. [409] Yes? [410] Please |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[411] [...] er eleven ninety. [412] Could I ... ask a couple of questions about the section on family matters Moderator? [413] Erm ... I'd like to thank the er ... the Board for this er helpful part of the report. [414] First of all I'm looking at page three hundred and fifty in the blue book. [415] ... At the end of paragraph four three two. [416] ... Er where the report has been pointing out the cost, not just in financial terms, but in terms of, of hurt and unhappiness of a home breaking up, a family breaking up. [417] I'd like to ask the convenor erm how would he have ... er replied to a young woman who came to me fairly recently whose husband had just left home by mutual ... agreement, and for the sake of their children ... and er she said to me after he had gone er that the home was a much happier place now that there was, they had been freed from the tension that they had been going through in a very difficult time. [418] The children are no longer worried about dad coming home drunk or arguments between er husband and wife. [419] Erm I appreciate the point that the Board's making about ... the hurt caused by broken families but how pastorally would one respond to this case? |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[420] Thank you. [421] ... Yes [...] reply. ... |
| Unknown speaker (F86PSUNK) |
[422] Moderator nine eight O, the convenor of the ... study group on family matters. [423] Erm ... naturally that is a problem that er exists and er people presumably divorce because of the pressures and problems that are there. [424] If I could lead you from that paragraph on page three fifty over to page three six four ... page three six four, one two three, four paragraphs from the top ... it's ab it's the second of two paragraphs that begins the Board affirms the church's th that Christ teaches that marriage is special and divorce is not the way he would wish for his people and then this sentence ... no-one would wish to condens condemn someone to stay in a marriage which is beyond redeeming. [425] We are not trying to say that divorce is never the answer. [426] What we are trying to argue for is ... to try to prevent the cost, the pain, the hurt that is experienced after a divorce by alerting people to the fact that a divorce won't solve all their problems, it will transfer one set of problems for another ... and our great concern in this report is to go back one step, not just to speak to people who are experiencing hurt, but in the hope that we can say something before it reaches the stage that it had reached when they came to you. [427] Thank you. ... |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[428] [...] on the se separate part of the report please Moderator. [429] Erm ... looking now at page three hundred and fifty seven ... er paragraph seven three two ... oh seven three one and seven three two, page three hundred and fifty seven ... where the report makes the point that er ... when ... legal proceedings are entered into they tend to create further barriers and make it m less and less likely that th there can be conciliation between estranged partners ... erm and paragraph seven three two points out a growing need fo or speaks of a growing need for conciliation. [430] Erm ... what place ... erm ... does the convenor see being made in the legal processes to make available to estranged couples the opportunity for erm ... voluntary conciliation between the parties? [431] Erm i is there opportunity in our legal system at the moment or are there movements that way? |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[432] Moderator I think er Mr wants us to go back to the words reconciliation. [433] Conciliation is used in this technical sense when the couple have reached the stage where they've agreed there is no possibility of reconciliation and they are now seeking to make arrangements, for example, about er the children and about money. [434] Er and so you you're question is a good one, what about reconciliation? [435] And our great concern is that people in Scotland should know that the possibility of reconciliation exists. [436] They don't about that when they're in the middle of a dramatic crisis and they've fallen out and perhaps the only thing they know about is ... how to go about getting a divorce and you see a lawyer and so on. [437] Well we want to say there is hope. [438] As Christians we've discovered about reconciliation in our own lives and we know the need of it in lots of areas in human relationships. [439] Erm in terms of er forcing people to have it, well you can't ... er somebody has to want to, to look at the possibility ... so that we would er er let people be aware there are, there are secular organizations like er ... er in England it's Re er er it's Relate, er marriage guidance, Scotland, still called that in Scotland. [440] The there are parish ministers who are willing to listen and long before it reaches the stage of lawyers and divorce. [441] Does that answer the question? [442] ... Thank you. |
| Hugh (PS1NE) |
[443] Thank you very much. [444] Yes? ... |
| (F86PS001) |
[445] Eric one one O two. [446] I would like to ask the convenor, with relation to one three on page three hundred and forty ... concerning the Christian ideal of marriage ... why not mention is menti is made there of the importance of the family worshipping and praying together. ... |
| Mr Boyd (PS1NF) |
[447] Erm if I knew the pages in the report as well as I ... try to know my bible I could point you to another place Moderator where er |