Animal rights: television discussion. Sample containing about 4880 words speech recorded in leisure context

11 speakers recorded by respondent number C73

FLHPS000 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS001 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS002 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS003 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS004 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS005 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS006 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS007 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPS008 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
FLHPSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
FLHPSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 082801 recorded on unknown date. LocationLothian: Edinburgh ( Studio ) Activity: Television Discussion

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [1] Four legs good!
[2] Two legs bad!
[3] Unless you're a chicken, or to put it boldly, animals have rights too!
[4] But exactly what rights do they have?
[5] And does supporting animal rights justify violence? [introduction music]
(FLHPS000) [6] The animal rights lobby is a forceful one ... by various means, some legal, some not, some specific, some violent.
[7] Campaigners seek to convince the unconverted that animals deserve a better deal!
[8] Which animals?
[9] And what's the better deal?
[10] Let's find out.
[11] And let's start with a basic question, here in this nation of animal lovers, do you think animals deserve a better deal?
[12] Some animals?
[13] All animals?
[14] Any animals?
[15] Do they deserve a better deal?
[16] Button one for yes, and button two for no.
[17] This is a descriptive vote because this hundred er ... women are not a representative cross section of the whole of Scotland ... they're invited to come from various places ... and ninety six of them think that animals deserve a better deal.
[18] When you said yes to that which animals did you mean?
[19] And what were you talking about?
[20] Yes?
(FLHPS001) [21] I think, a lot of people ... see the stray dogs problem as a big problem, certainly if people have decided to ... partake of pets, they have a responsibility to look after them and not throw them out on the streets.
(FLHPS000) [22] Okay so
(FLHPS001) [23] And I think problems like that ... are due to human irresponsibility!
[24] So those animals do have a raw deal!
(FLHPS000) [25] Okay, that's one area.
[26] Who else said yes, and why?
[27] Up, yes?
(FLHPS002) [28] I think animals that are used for human entertainment definitely deserve a better deal, for example, large wi wild animals that are used in circuses, we haven't got the right, as people, to say that they're here for our entertainment.
(FLHPS000) [29] What would that better deal be in that case?
(FLHPS002) [30] The better deal would be, not being transported up and down the country, and not being made to perform tricks that are ... un ... unnatural to their own ... behaviour patterns.
(FLHPS000) [31] Aha.
[32] Aha.
[33] Any other views?
[34] Yes?
(FLHPS003) [35] I think that er ... concern should also spread to animals that are hunted pleasure as well, i.e. the stags, deer, foxes, hares, I mean, there's there's quite a considerable list that's all done for entertainment.
(FLHPS000) [36] Mhm.
[37] Now the better deal there presumably would involve
(FLHPS003) [38] Not chasing them at all!
(FLHPS000) [39] [laughing] not hunting them at all?
(FLHPS003) [40] No!
[41] I mean
(FLHPS000) [42] Okay.
(FLHPS003) [43] let them live their lives in peace without the harassment of chasing them with dogs and ... supporters and what have you!
(FLHPS000) [44] Okay.
[45] Any others ... that, yes?
(FLHPS004) [46] I don't think animals should be ta , used to be tested for cosmetics
(FLHPS000) [47] Mhm.
(FLHPS004) [48] perfumes or ... detergents
(FLHPS000) [49] Mhm.
(FLHPS004) [50] different things like that.
(FLHPS000) [51] What about medical research?
(FLHPS004) [52] Well, there again, yes, with reservations ... because if it comes to the fact that if it's going to save human lives, yes.
(FLHPS005) [53] Yes, and you get all the animals who are experimented on and you sa ... there's not a week that comes out and you don't an ... a report saying, oh well this this, this causes cancer in rats or ... and you, imagine the amount, the huge amounts of ... the sub , whatever substance it is that had been given to rats to cause the cancer, and there's no ... knowing that the amount that's gonna be given to rats ... causing cancer, will give cancer to humans!
[54] I mean,i it's just absolutely ridiculous!
(FLHPS006) [55] I'm a trustee for the beauty without cruelty charity
(FLHPS000) [56] Aha.
(FLHPS006) [57] and we would like to see an end to all experiments on animals, for cosmetics, toiletry, household product ... purposes.
(FLHPS000) [58] Hasn't that campaign been going for
(FLHPS006) [59] Oh many, many years!
(FLHPS000) [60] a long time?
(FLHPS006) [61] Yes!
[62] And we're making progress now.
(FLHPS000) [63] How?
(FLHPS006) [64] There are already many alternatives to the research carried out on animals which has been going on for a long time.
[65] Erm ... for example, you can grow human skin in a, in a cell culture and use that as a, as a testing er, medium
(FLHPS000) [66] Mhm.
(FLHPS006) [67] instead of a live animal.
[68] We can ... it can use erm ... a si similar substance for eye tests ... erm, to test ... to replace the Jeyes eye test
(FLHPS000) [69] Mhm.
(FLHPS006) [70] which again has been used for a long time on animals.
[71] These tests are very misleading.
[72] They don't protect bu su er, er the public, they protect the people who are actually manufacturing the products.
(FLHPS000) [73] Now ... do you think that the campaign th the th , the campaigns against the use in cosmetic testing had anything to do with the changes that were brought in, or do you think advances and responsible er ... science would have, would have made those changes anyway?
(FLHPS006) [74] I think inevitably,th the changes would have come because the, the alternatives are better.
(FLHPS000) [75] Yep.
(FLHPS006) [76] They are less misleading.
[77] Ah, but I think the campaign, the public campaign and the pressure that's been put on companies have definitely made quite a, quite a difference.
(FLHPS000) [78] Yes?
(FLHPS007) [79] While I agree that there is absolutely no justification for testing for cosmetic purposes at all!
[80] Absolutely
(FLHPS000) [81] Yes.
(FLHPS007) [82] none!
[83] I think we would have advanced to the stage we are at had we not used animals in the earlier stages for medical research.
[84] We're advancing all the time and I think there may came a time we won't use animals at all for medical research, but at, up till now we needed to use animals for medical research.
(FLHPS008) [85] I think you've got to be realistic about this whole issue, that ... er, obviously seeing the poor furry little bunny suffering for cosmetics!
(FLHPS000) [86] Mhm.
(FLHPS008) [87] Yes!
[88] I agree, that is wrong!
[89] But, if a test on a chimpanzee would save my child's life I'm afraid I'd go for the test on the chimpanzee.
(FLHPS000) [90] Okay.
[91] Yes?
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [92] Erm I ... I think that one of the erm, drawbacks in using animals for any kind of testing is that it sort of precludes in some way using alternatives.
[93] And I think that, you know people who, they may be trained when they're a ... studying to
(FLHPS000) [94] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [95] use animals, and then go onto to work using animals, and erm ... you know, if maybe alternative techniques were introduced at an earlier stage, maybe in their training, they'd be more likely to them on board.
[96] But, it's almost like it's ... the established pattern to use animals to test
(FLHPS000) [97] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [98] all sorts of things, and it's gonna take quite a big shifty to get out of that.
(FLHPS000) [99] Mhm.
[100] Yes?
(FLHPS000) [101] I agree with what that lady's just said.
[102] What I find horrible is that ... there are so many organisations or ... or places all over Great Britain, they're all doing the same sort of tests!
[103] Can't we ... collate our knowledge so that not so many tests are having to be done on all these animals?
(FLHPS000) [104] Yes?
(FLHPS001) [105] Yes.
[106] Erm, being with the S S P C A, I have seen a lot of very sad pictures of animals, but one of the saddest photographs I saw, quite recently was ... two monkeys, well they're primates, we are
(FLHPS000) [107] Yep.
(FLHPS001) [108] part of that family too, and they were in a lab awaiting experimentation and they were ... in cages side by side and they'd stretched their arms out and were holding hands, almost as though, to give each other comfort.
(FLHPS000) [109] Mhm.
(FLHPS001) [110] Monkeys feel pain.
[111] They feel happiness, sadness ... and they also have a sense of humour.
(FLHPS002) [112] Under the nineteen eighty six act
(FLHPS000) [113] Mm.
(FLHPS002) [114] they have stated that all use of animals must be justified and it very carefully policed by the Home Office, as well as locally.
[115] I mean, it's it's ... vets etcetera
(FLHPS000) [116] Yeah.
[117] Yep.
(FLHPS002) [118] are always present in research establishments to ensure ... the well being of the animals, and very often there is actually no pain ... involved in the research.
(FLHPS000) [119] How, how do you know that?
(FLHPS002) [120] [laugh] Well I was told by somebody who's involved in animal
(FLHPS000) [121] Right.
(FLHPS002) [122] research!
(FLHPS000) [123] Right.
(FLHPS002) [124] But er, frequently the animals are used ... for the research and there's no pain involved at that time and they are killed humanly before the research actually takes place.
(FLHPS000) [125] But do we find it acceptable that animals should be used, however painless the event.
(FLHPS002) [126] Well I would rather use an animal any time that my own child!
(FLHPS000) [127] Up there.
(FLHPS003) [128] Er, Switzerland is one country that has banned the use of animals for research, and I think we ought to be going along these lines ... that, if animals have rights we ought not to be using them for experimentation.
(FLHPS000) [129] Mhm.
(FLHPS003) [130] And if we were to ban the the process,th erm ... we would devise other means for research, would, we would find alternatives.
(FLHPS000) [131] There.
(FLHPS004) [132] Th there'll, there'll quickly move it somewhere where we can do it.
[133] It's quite
(FLHPS000) [laugh]
(FLHPS004) [134] alright, they move it out of Switzerland ... but if we can't have it here we'll have it in Pakistan or somewhere ... where they want the money!
[135] So it won't make any difference ... in that
(FLHPS000) [136] Yes?
(FLHPS004) [137] respect.
(FLHPS005) [138] I do not think that research has gone as fast as it should!
(FLHPS000) [139] Mhm.
(FLHPS005) [140] And it's going to be a long time before it's going to be possible, so therefore we still have to use animals, I ... see no way round it.
(FLHPS000) [141] Mhm.
(FLHPS005) [142] And I know that they're using cultures and things but ... I still think that we are ... a long way from not using animals.
(FLHPS000) [143] Up there.
(FLHPS006) [144] Erm ... can I, can I move this conversation on to the
(FLHPS000) [145] Yes.
(FLHPS006) [146] th th the, the veterinary side?
(FLHPS000) [147] Mhm.
(FLHPS006) [148] Erm, we've we've covered the fact that animal models don't always reflect the human situation, but if we're going to understand control and eradicate disease in animals, this sort of work must go on.
(FLHPS007) [149] Could I go back to something the lady here
(FLHPS000) [150] Yes.
(FLHPS007) [151] said about the Animal Procedures Act of nineteen eighty six, erm, I know she's been told about the animals are killed painlessly and that they suffer very little pain, where there's any pain at all, but in fact this act erm which is governed by a committee ... only erm ... issues guidelines as to what might happen.
[152] No matter how serious an infringement there might be of that act ... they are not subject to any sort of criminal offence.
(FLHPS000) [153] Sh shall we try and see what the er, what the general feeling on this is?
[154] Do you think that er ... the use of animals in research is ever justified?
[155] Er, button one for yes, and button two for no.
[156] Research there being either on behalf of animals themselves, or on behalf of er, of humans.
[157] Is research on er, the use of animals in research ever justified?
[158] And this particular hundred are creeping in with their votes but have decided, seventy fo seventy seven of them say yes, all be it th th th , by far the majority, and twenty three say no.
[159] Could anyone say what the consequences would be if they weren't available for use in er ... in the development of human ... er ... medicines and treatment?
(FLHPS008) [160] Well I wouldn't be here because a horse was used for a toxin to provide the anti-toxin for diphtheria ... whe , in my days when I was younger there was no toxins as such, vaccination as such and so therefore the horses ... were used ... for research ... to provide the anti-toxins.
(FLHPS000) [161] So do you think people who would like to ban the use of animals in research are in, are in cloud cuckoo land do you?
(FLHPS008) [162] Yes?
(FLHPS000) [163] Would any of you twenty three like to defend your position?
[164] Yes?
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [165] Erm, I'm just not sure why any ... any person would think that they have more right to life than animals do.
[166] I mean what ... what gives you more right to life than an animal does?
(FLHPS000) [167] Anyone wa
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [168] Just because we have, a so called civilized nation that we live in ... that destroys the world, that destroys animals ... that destroys the environment we're living in!
[169] You know, where's our right to life come from?
(FLHPS000) [170] I think you can far too sentimental about it!
[171] Erm ... humans are more important than animals, you you cannot gi equate an animal life with human life.
[172] We are the intelligent order.
[173] Being intelligent, we hope we won't be cruel to animals, but you can't say that we are, animals are just as important as humans.
(FLHPS000) [174] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [175] Wha , why do you think we are more intelligent than animals?
(FLHPS000) [176] Well, for a start
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [177] You know , because we can have television
(FLHPS000) [178] we could
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [179] studios?
(FLHPS000) [180] No!
[181] We can reason with each other, animals don't reason with
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [182] But
(FLHPS000) [183] other.
[184] We have conversations, animals don't have conversations!
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [185] We are, we are living in a world , we are living in a world where constantly there's violence, does that happen in the animal world!
(FLHPS000) [186] Yes of course it does!
(FLHPS001) [187] Of course it does!
(FLHPS000) [188] Of course it does!
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [189] To the same extent?
(FLHPS001) [190] They're horrible!
(FLHPS000) [191] Animals are terribly cruel to each other!
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [192] N no well
(FLHPS000) [193] Yes?
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [194] I can't accept that!
(FLHPS002) [195] Surely if intelligence is the answer, you know, what about mentally handicapped children?
[196] They're, they're not intelligent, does that mean they're just the same as animals?
[197] If intelligence is the criteria, then an awful lot of us in this room would be used as test animals!
(FLHPS000) [198] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
(FLHPS003) [199] We have a choice if we want to be involved in research
(FLHPS000) [200] Mhm.
(FLHPS003) [201] whereas animals don't!
[202] They have no
(FLHPS000) [203] Mhm.
(FLHPS003) [204] choice, they have no say.
(FLHPS000) [205] Mhm.
[206] There, yes?
(FLHPS004) [207] How do you know that erm ... animals don't reason?
[208] Like, how do you know what goes on, like with, dolphins, with whales, with all sorts of species of animals, like we don't know, well we're so dense we can only see things like this!
[209] We don't know what goes on there, we've got no right to interfere with their lives!
(FLHPS000) [210] Yes?
(FLHPS005) [211] I think, I think we're overlooking one erm
(FLHPS000) [212] Mhm.
(FLHPS005) [213] great power that the individual has, instead of being ing , indignant ... about erm, our views on animals in research, we could quite simply exercise our power, not to buy the products, to ask questions of our
(FLHPS000) [214] Mm mm.
(FLHPS005) [215] of our doctors what kind of drug it is?
[216] What research goes behind it?
[217] Do to exercise our individual intelligence to examine the facts on no , on the basis of our own conscience, individually to make a decision, and we can all do that!
[218] We can buy a different type of product.
[219] And there are many
(FLHPS000) [220] Mhm.
(FLHPS005) [221] companies now ... erm which quite obviously assert that fact, on the doorways of chemists for instance, they do not test on animals.
(FLHPS000) [222] So you're saying the consumer pressure could could change things?
(FLHPS005) [223] Mhm.
[224] It it it's every effective measure
(FLHPS000) [225] Mm.
(FLHPS005) [226] of stopping erm, a certain product ... it simply will go out of production.
(FLHPS006) [227] I would disagree that er, humans aren't used in experiments because I think that we're all being used at various
(FLHPS000) [laugh]
(FLHPS006) [228] points in our lives, for experiments, medical or otherwise.
(FLHPS000) [229] Mhm.
(FLHPS006) [230] And erm ... a , a lot of the medicines that are passed ... er have been passed to a certain degree and then th th the ... we become the the animal.
(FLHPS000) [231] Are you speaking as a, as an experienced guinea pig yourself?
(FLHPS006) [232] Well I'm a diabetic ... erm
(FLHPS000) [233] Yes.
(FLHPS006) [234] so to a certain extent th the human that was introduced in the last few
(FLHPS000) [235] Mhm.
(FLHPS006) [236] years has has ... is an experiment.
(FLHPS000) [237] How do you feel about that?
(FLHPS006) [238] I, don't mind being used as a guinea pig because I feel that it'll help people in the future.
(FLHPS000) [239] Up there.
(FLHPS007) [240] I believe that we have been given the right to have dominion over animals.
[241] The point I would like to put over is, I've listened to one or two erm, radio programmes, and television programmes about this and I personally would like to have more evidence of what actually happens to the animals.
[242] I don't think us ... er er ... public people really realize what is going on and I think then they would maybe stand up and be
(FLHPS000) [243] Mm.
(FLHPS007) [244] and be counted, but I think we've tended to stand back and just say ... well we know it's going on but what is actually being ... done to these
(FLHPS000) [245] Mhm.
(FLHPS007) [246] animals?
(FLHPS000) [247] Yes?
(FLHPS008) [248] Yes, we ... that lady over said there were guidelines, there were people that go in and inspect, but there are not enough, it is a known fact, that there are not enough people to go and inspect all the establishments where animal ... erm, experimentations are taking place ... and, I love animals, and alright, yes,yo you can do ex , some experiments on animals but let's not be cruel!
[249] That lady up there said that we have experiments, I'm sure, human [laughing] experiments [] , you know, experiments, sorry, on human people
(FLHPS000) [250] Mm.
(FLHPS008) [251] but, on human beings, but we're not put through the state that animals are!
[252] We
(FLHPS000) [253] Mm.
(FLHPS008) [254] don't have great lumps made to grown on us, we don't go through she , severe pain.
[255] And, which company was it that says, to ... do something about pain ... you first have to create it.
(FLHPS000) [256] Mm.
(FLHPS008) [257] Ah, I mean that's terrible!
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [258] I was responsible for researching into the, so called cruelty free products for beauty without cruelty, and it was a real can of worms!
[259] I was
(FLHPS000) [260] Yep!
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [261] I was sorry I got involved in it at one point!
[262] Erm ... cosmetic companies are very devious!
[263] It's what they don't tell you that's important.
[264] Erm, there is a big problem at the moment with cosmetic labelling, for example, erm just exactly what does cruelty free mean?
[265] What does against animal testing mean?
[266] These are the kind of things that are actually on cosmetic products.
(FLHPS000) [267] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [268] It could mean, erm, against animal testing but I go along with it anyway.
[269] It could mean erm ... cruelty free, er erm who de defines in that case, what cruelty is?
[270] Er, not, not tested on animals might mean, by me ... by but by someone else!
(FLHPS000) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [271] And it all sells products!
[272] And, beauty without cruelty has been involved recently in having er, trying to put forward an E C ... erm, directive on th ... er, the labelling of cosmetics, but it's very, very difficult!
[273] And, mainly because of those kind of problems.
(FLHPS000) [274] Yeah.
[275] Yep.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [276] What do you mean by ... erm, not tested on animals?
[277] The finished product?
[278] The ingredient?
[279] Ingredients are tested for other reasons too ... not necessarily just for the cosmetic and toiletry trade.
(FLHPS000) [280] I think that one of the outstanding erm ... criticisms that I would make ... of the whole programme, in research with animals, is the fact that only two licences have been revoked I think you said
(FLHPS000) [281] Mhm.
(FLHPS000) [282] on ... now, I think it's a bit like factory inspectors, and I talk from experience on this, er ... th o i me , everything gets cleaned up before the inspectors
(FLHPS000) [283] Mhm.
(FLHPS000) [284] arrive!
[285] If you report something you always get the same reply, nothing wrong when we went round!
(FLHPS000) [286] Mm.
[287] I'd like to move with th er, I I think tha wi given wi , though we haven't got all that much time, can we move onto another area that was brought up at the beginning of the programme which was erm ... the use of animals in recreation and er ... Lisa particularly mentioned hunting, now, she thinks hunting should be banned, do you?
[288] Do you think hunting animals should be banned?
[289] Various animals that ... hunted in this country, foxes, in some places deer, hares are coursed er in some places.
[290] Well well!
[291] There's an interesting result!
[292] Seventy nine of you think yes, hunting should be banned.
[293] For the minority, twenty one say, no.
[294] Would any of those twenty one feel brave enough to say why they said no?
[295] Yes?
(FLHPS001) [296] Well I I so , should er ... be unhappy to see the, the the red-coated huntsmen ... a an abolished scenario.
[297] But, erm ... I think they could instead have ... an electric fox, if there's such a thing?
[298] Or, a drag ... and there's no need to interfere with the fox at all.
(FLHPS000) [299] Okay.
[300] Yes?
(FLHPS002) [301] They say that hunting's for er ... er human pleasure, er, I mean personally I've only been to one hunt, and I don't see what all the ... the, the, the, the trouble's about because the huntsman is only a spectator, it's the hounds that are hunting the fox and it is to keep the foxes down.
[302] What's better than [...] , gassing, shooting, poisoning?
(FLHPS000) [303] Mm.
(FLHPS002) [304] What's more humane?
(FLHPS000) [305] So you think hunting's fair enough?
(FLHPS002) [306] From my point of view, yeah.
(FLHPS000) [307] Yes?
[308] Beside you.
(FLHPS003) [309] Yes, I I would have to, I'd have to disagree with er, my colleague here.
[310] Erm, I, it's not the ... shooting is, most certainly, as long as it's with a ... a qualified marksman
(FLHPS000) [311] Mm.
(FLHPS003) [312] it's most
(FLHPS002) [313] Mhm.
(FLHPS003) [314] definitely less cruel than hunting ... because the animal is chased and er, what it's heart is doing while it's being chased and it's, really is ... the idea's quite horrendous to me!
[315] And actually, hunting doesn't kill all that many foxes, a a hunt probably erm, kills one an, at a meet ... if they're lucky.
(FLHPS000) [316] But hunting does maintain jobs, and countryside people often say.
[317] Would anyone like
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [318] Mm.
(FLHPS000) [319] to talk to, to to that?
[320] Yes?
(FLHPS004) [321] Well coming from a rural community
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [...]
(FLHPS004) [322] erm ... hunting and shooting and fishing are very important to the
(FLHPS000) [323] Yeah.
(FLHPS004) [324] economy of the community ... and to have suburbia creeping in and trying to dictate to what has been [laughing] the foundation of the [] of their economy, for many, many years is ... almost ridiculous!
(FLHPS000) [325] Mhm.
[326] Down there.
(FLHPS005) [327] I think the idea of taking a fox and having it ripped apart legitimized by our society is a bad message to pass onto our children!
[328] When children nowadays are becoming more responsible to our society, and they see us as one world ... we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our world, and that includes the animals in it.
(FLHPS000) [329] The seventy nine of you who voted for banning hunting,a are you all townees, do you not understand th the fabric of er, of the country?
[330] Do you have an alternative to offer that would er, that would sustain that fabric?
[331] Yes?
(FLHPS006) [332] I live in the country, I live in the heart of the country right next to a sheep farm, and there's no co , no message at all from the farmer that ... foxes are a pest ... it's a misnomer put about by the hunt.
[333] Fox hunting was started, two hundred, three hundred years ago by the aristocracy because there wasn't enough deer, because the fo the forests were getting obliterated by the same pi , the same people, it was started as an entertainment, it's an entertainment now!
[334] And now the hunt are turning round and they're lying about what they're doing, they're saying it's pest control, they're saying, we do it, it's quick, it's a sharp nip in the back of the neck.
[335] It's not!
[336] The hunt encourages foxes into their land ... they actually build artificial earths, we saw one of Saturday when we were out protesting, the ar , they encourage foxes onto the land so they can hunt them.
[337] A hunt is no good without foxes.
[338] They don't want foxes
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [339] Alright.
(FLHPS006) [340] to be depleted at any way, they encourage them!
(FLHPS000) [341] So you actually go out and do something about
(FLHPS006) [342] Yes.
(FLHPS000) [343] your your your er ... your feelings?
[344] Wha what do you do as a protester?
(FLHPS006) [345] We actually, I'm actually er, in the Scottish Action Against Blood Sports
(FLHPS000) [346] Aha.
(FLHPS006) [347] and we do many things, we write to MP's, we write to councils trying to get them banned off the land, and we've been very successful.
[348] We've actually helped stop the ... oldest hunt in Scotland, in Li Lithgo in Stirlingshire, which ended last year.
[349] We were very successful then and we've now ... progressed.
[350] We go out every single Saturday, weekdays if we can, and we try and stop the ... stop the fo , hounds killing the foxes
(FLHPS000) [351] So
(FLHPS006) [352] peacefully.
(FLHPS000) [353] so so you're proud of having stopped the oldest hunt in, in Scotland?
(FLHPS006) [354] Very!
(FLHPS000) [355] Right.
(FLHPS007) [356] I'd like to disagree with that.
(FLHPS000) [357] Ah.
(FLHPS007) [358] I'm an ex-master's wife from Lithgo in Stirlingshire hunt, and we had to stop because erm ... the country was disappearing underneath us.
[359] We had a new
(FLHPS000) [360] Mm.
(FLHPS007) [361] town built in our country with two motorways, and the towns have all expanded to great extent and that was why we had to give up, it was nothing to do with our friends the ... saboteurs.
(FLHPS000) [362] It was creeping suburbia then, it wasn't
(FLHPS007) [363] Creeping suburbia.
(FLHPS000) [364] So wha
(FLHPS007) [365] Yes.
(FLHPS000) [366] what do you do now with the, what do the old ... the old hunt's people do?
(FLHPS007) [367] Well we've, we just have to er, grin and bear it.
[368] There is nowhere else to go for us.
(FLHPS000) [369] Yes.
(FLHPS008) [370] I would like to ask the saboteurs how they can justify ... the fact that they ill-treat hounds and horses?
[371] Now I
(FLHPS006) [...]
(FLHPS008) [372] personally have had a horse actually had things thrown at it by saboteurs!
[373] I feel this is cruelty to horses.
(FLHPS000) [374] Yes.
(FLHPS006) [375] That's, that's just absolutely rubbish!
[376] I mean we don't
(FLHPS000) [377] Well you
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
(FLHPS000) [378] can't, you can't
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh] [laugh]
(FLHPS000) [379] like er, you can't say that she might have something thrown at her horse cos maybe you weren't there and maybe
(FLHPS006) [380] Generally speaking
(FLHPS000) [381] Mm.
(FLHPS006) [382] erm, I mean ... people who spend their entire Saturday doing something that they, I mean, I don't enjoy going out every Saturday!
[383] I mean, I'd like to do the things that, my hobbies, but I go out there because I care and I see that I feel that it's necessary to, to actually stop these people tormenting an animal for fun ... and if I'm that concerned about animals, I'm not gonna stoop to ... to hurt a horse, or ... or the hounds!
[384] I mean I ride myself, I have dogs myself, I mean, it's just another excuse from the hunting fraternity, turn it round, blame the cruelty on the saboteurs when really ... there wouldn't be any saboteurs if there weren't people to kill foxes purely for fun!
(FLHPS000) [385] Do you want to come back on that?
(FLHPS008) [386] Yes.
[387] Erm we ha , we have had horses and hounds and damaged but apart from that I would ask the speaker ... who i , what
(FLHPS000) [388] Mm.
(FLHPS008) [389] or who is the fox's predator?
[390] After all, the mouse has a cat, so what is the fox's predator?
(FLHPS006) [391] Do you know much about fox ecology?
(FLHPS008) [392] Yes.
(FLHPS000) [393] [laughing] Mm mm [] .
(FLHPS006) [394] Have you ever, ever looked into
(FLHPS008) [395] I'm willing, I'm willing to listen to you!
(FLHPS006) [396] well the , I think these people who concern themselves very much about dictating the do's and don't of fox hunting, if they were to spend a little more time about looking into the research of, how foxes actually live.
[397] Three hundred thousand foxes are killed annually in this country, either through hunting, which only attributes to a small two point percent, shooting, gassing, snaring, all of which happen during the hunting season as well.
[398] So I mean, these foxes are still widespread and abundant, they can sustain seventy percent losses, so what human intervention are you doing?
[399] I mean ... [laughing] ha [] ... how can you say that killing fifteen thousand foxes a year is helping to control foxes?
(FLHPS000) [400] Up there.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [401] I hunt regularly
(FLHPS000) [402] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [403] because I breed racehorses, I also am a farmer ... so I wear two hats, but I've actually seen foxes sit down we move the ... hounds move in,si sit down and scratch in the middle of a field, and then they think ah!
[404] Right we're off!
[405] But, in fact from a farmer's point of view they are a su a nuisance, we have a man who co , who supposedly raises pheasants, he traps them, he also trapped my dog and this is him ... ah, justified, his justification was ... there were too many foxes.
[406] Erm.
[407] and so therefore, we don't particularly pretend that they are
(FLHPS000) [408] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [409] that hunting justifies the ... the end of killing foxes ... but it does preserve country life.
(FLHPS000) [410] We're going to have to close, alas, because it's been very interesting, and er er er a very diverse, ninety six people think animals should have a better deal, seventy seven think that the use of animals in research is justified at ti , from time to time, and well over seventy
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [411] Except [...] .
(FLHPS000) [412] think that hunting should be banned.
[413] And, my final question to you, just out of curiosity is, are you ve , a vegetarian?
[414] Button one for yes, button two for no.
[415] I could of said do you eat animals, but I decided that would be insensitive, to those of you who
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
(FLHPS000) [416] are vegetarians.
[417] So, in this, very animal loving assembly, I think er, you would agree ... er, only twenty one are vegetarians and seventy nine people love animals but they also enjoy ... chewing on them from time to time.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
(FLHPS000) [418] Wo would er any of you animal eaters like to say something about that position?
[419] Yes?
(FLHPS001) [420] Yes, I would
(FLHPS000) [421] As, as an S S P C A representative.
(FLHPS001) [422] and and also as a farmer, if I
(FLHPS000) [423] Mhm.
(FLHPS001) [424] might say, I'm a beef farmer, erm I enjoy my, my beef very much, my philosophy is ... that erm, if we're going to use animals we're going to eat the , their time here should be as humane, they should have as humane treatment as possible, and they should be free from fear, hunger and pain, and when the time comes for them to go they should know ... as little about it as possible.
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [425] Yes, but they never do!
(FLHPS000) [426] You might say that about the human animal really, mightn't you?
Unknown speaker (FLHPSUNK) [laugh]
(FLHPS001) [427] Yes
(FLHPS000) [428] Thank you all very much for a civilized and interesting discussion.
[429] Thank you for joining us.
[430] Goodbye. [closing music]