British Rail team brief meeting. Sample containing about 15872 words speech recorded in business context

10 speakers recorded by respondent number C115

PS1V2 Ag4 m (Dennis, age 55, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V3 Ag4 m (Terry, age 45, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V4 Ag4 m (Roger, age 50, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V5 Ag4 m (Trevor, age 48, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V6 Ag4 m (Jim, age 52, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V7 Ag4 m (Hugh, age 54, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V8 Ag4 m (Dave, age 50, british rail employee) unspecified
PS1V9 Ag4 m (Norman, age 55, british rail employee) unspecified
FULPSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
FULPSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 087903 recorded on 1993-04-30. LocationNorth Yorkshire: York ( meeting room ) Activity: British Rail Team Brief Meeting formal meeting

Undivided text

Dennis (PS1V2) [1] function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2] That's, yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [3] Replaces urgent work.
Dennis (PS1V2) [4] Yeah.
[5] That's er procedure D two stop three.
Roger (PS1V4) [6] And that's the simplification is it?
Trevor (PS1V5) [7] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [8] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [9] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [10] Two two [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [11] It is.
Dennis (PS1V2) [12] It's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er Trevor's empire.
Trevor (PS1V5) [13] Thus making it even cheaper.
Jim (PS1V6) [14] For to a smaller an empire.
Terry (PS1V3) [15] I should use that word, that was used very loosely that word [...] cheap.
Trevor (PS1V5) [16] What?
[17] Cheap? [laugh]
Hugh (PS1V7) [18] I mean [...] I'm briefed
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [19] on that. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [20] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [21] Okay.
Hugh (PS1V7) [22] So the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [23] D two [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [24] And to let the client know where the job lies within our organization.
Hugh (PS1V7) [25] Good.
Trevor (PS1V5) [26] Given a point of [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [27] [...] Straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, I've got it.
[28] My project coordinator is Mr X, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away.
[29] ... There are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but I haven't, I don't pretend, intend briefing those because I think most people can read.
Hugh (PS1V7) [30] Right.
[31] So they should be aware there, there are some.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [32] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [33] Right?
Dennis (PS1V2) [34] Er J two stop zero.
[35] Trainees training report file.
Hugh (PS1V7) [36] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [37] Erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file.
[38] So they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like.
[39] Their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera.
[40] And that's J two stop zero.
[41] ... E five stop one.
[42] Contract documents and specifications for works and bridges.
[43] E five stop one.
Trevor (PS1V5) [44] Sorry.
[45] There is an X on it. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [46] Works bridges and Q and Q S.
[47] Erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages.
[48] The project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be.
[49] And there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section.
Trevor (PS1V5) [50] [...] P on it either.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [51] Mhm.
Terry (PS1V3) [52] Eh?
Trevor (PS1V5) [53] [...] [...] yours
Dennis (PS1V2) [54] Erm
Trevor (PS1V5) [55] got P on.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [56] No. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [57] Con H five stop two.
[58] Contract variation orders.
[59] Erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value.
[60] Er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client.
[61] ... There are
Hugh (PS1V7) [62] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [63] arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it.
[64] Erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession.
Jim (PS1V6) [65] Can I, can I raise a small point on that?
[66] That is
Hugh (PS1V7) [67] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [68] a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer?
[69] And I've told them what a B E S one is and they said, why?
[70] Why are works ones different then?
[71] Why couldn't
Hugh (PS1V7) [72] They aren't.
Jim (PS1V6) [73] M S ones be project engineers?
[74] In works?
[75] And yet in B E S they're only twos and threes?
Terry (PS1V3) [76] Could be anybody.
Dennis (PS1V2) [77] Well.
[78] Project engineers are
Hugh (PS1V7) [79] You've lost me.
Dennis (PS1V2) [80] T T O and S T O level.
Trevor (PS1V5) [81] Surely not. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [82] But you would erm you would allow an S T O, to sign a V O of any value?
Hugh (PS1V7) [83] The only people who sign
Dennis (PS1V2) [84] Point, good point.
Hugh (PS1V7) [85] V Os are those who are delegated within the contract to do
Terry (PS1V3) [86] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [87] so.
Dennis (PS1V2) [88] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [89] That's what it says though don't it?
Hugh (PS1V7) [90] [...] .
[91] And that's what it says.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [92] The value of [...] authority from the client.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [93] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [94] So it will be in your letter of delegation
Roger (PS1V4) [95] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [96] which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [97] Mhm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [98] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [99] to discharge
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [100] Mhm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [101] that duty.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [102] Mhm.
Jim (PS1V6) [103] Then there's, I, I, I'm the only person.
[104] quite a long time now I [...] begin to understand there are M S twos and threes are project engineers, and I
Hugh (PS1V7) [105] Not necessarily.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [106] No.
Trevor (PS1V5) [107] Er
Hugh (PS1V7) [108] They can be.
Trevor (PS1V5) [109] That was certainly my understanding and certainly
Terry (PS1V3) [110] No. [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [111] if that is not the case then I'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because
Terry (PS1V3) [112] No.
[113] It's terminology isn't it?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh] [...] [laugh]
Trevor (PS1V5) [114] No.
[115] Because, because the consultation
Roger (PS1V4) [116] We've
Trevor (PS1V5) [117] documents clearly set out to the staff, what I thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [118] Right.
Trevor (PS1V5) [119] that section engineers at M S four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the
Terry (PS1V3) [120] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [121] work, negotiated the er
Hugh (PS1V7) [122] The fee
Trevor (PS1V5) [123] the fees
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [124] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [125] and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer.
[126] And the project engineers were M S twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and M S threes on larger jobs.
[127] And they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at
Hugh (PS1V7) [128] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [129] M S one and P N T created [...] .
Terry (PS1V3) [130] Yeah.
[131] But why can't the engineer at M S one level be project engineer
Jim (PS1V6) [132] Because his responsibilities are different.
Terry (PS1V3) [133] in, in terms of
Trevor (PS1V5) [134] Well.
[135] That's fine
Terry (PS1V3) [136] [...] your using a name.
Jim (PS1V6) [137] Oh no.
[138] He's responsible.
Trevor (PS1V5) [139] No.
[140] Because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [141] Project team [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [142] Yeah.
[143] But it's, it's not defined as er an M S two or an M S three.
[144] I mean take the example that Hugh is always using, is that if I wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we
Trevor (PS1V5) [145] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [146] don't need an M S two.
Trevor (PS1V5) [147] If that's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [148] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [149] the case then can I suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be M S twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero
Jim (PS1V6) [150] Oh no.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [151] they can't be beneath
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [152] Very, making it very rigid.
Dennis (PS1V2) [153] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [154] You see what our policy is M S two except b except by exception.
[155] For instance erm we would give certainly the better M S ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about.
Trevor (PS1V5) [156] Project engineer.
Hugh (PS1V7) [157] Project engineer.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [158] That's right.
Roger (PS1V4) [159] What happens if everybody wants to
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [160] panel view this
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Trevor (PS1V5) [161] [laugh] Now I would imagine if we had suggested
Dennis (PS1V2) [162] In broad terms
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [163] I would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco
Hugh (PS1V7) [164] Could be done at M S one
Trevor (PS1V5) [165] At M M S one and S T O
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [166] Thank you.
Hugh (PS1V7) [167] We wouldn't have, we
Trevor (PS1V5) [168] levels the then
Hugh (PS1V7) [169] wouldn't have no M S threes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [170] then none of our M S threes
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [171] would have come back at M S three.
Jim (PS1V6) [172] What concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er S T Os and M S ones at design engineering level do not have to go through.
[173] They do have a much greater responsibility.
[174] And particularly I mean just signing the V Os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me.
Jim (PS1V6) [175] You know.
[176] If you have an S T O, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money.
Terry (PS1V3) [177] [...] .
[178] It doesn't seem right does it?
Jim (PS1V6) [179] I it seems, well
Dennis (PS1V2) [180] No.
[181] But the point t that Hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job.
Roger (PS1V4) [182] Yeah.
[183] Well I can think of one M S one in our er office who I'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance.
[184] Because he, he just has [laughing] you know [] [laugh] a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [185] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [186] so this means you daren't give him anything now.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [187] Well in that case I wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but I would keep him in the [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [188] T as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan.
[189] That, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer.
[190] These are your duties.
Dennis (PS1V2) [191] You are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [192] He couldn't live, live by it.
[193] You know it d the first thought [...] bloody hell. [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [194] If you don't want to use it don't use it.
Roger (PS1V4) [195] [...] S T O with unlimited signing power.
Terry (PS1V3) [196] There's an anom anomaly here.
[197] But if you don't want to use it don't [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [198] And anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got
Terry (PS1V3) [199] Oh yeah.
[200] Oh yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [201] auth authority from the project manager. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [202] But there may be, there may be
Hugh (PS1V7) [203] I think we're discussing two issues here.
[204] Can we, can we bottom the V O
Terry (PS1V3) [205] Yeah. [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [206] one as a start [...] .
[207] I don't see there's a problem with the V O one, because
Terry (PS1V3) [208] It's [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [209] nobody nobody can issue V Os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me.
[210] I rely on you gentlemen
Dennis (PS1V2) [211] And, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money.
Terry (PS1V3) [212] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [213] Correct.
Trevor (PS1V5) [214] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [215] I rely on you gentlemen to make sure
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [216] Too right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [217] that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties.
Trevor (PS1V5) [218] Yeah. ...
Hugh (PS1V7) [219] An and I must admit that I wouldn't, I would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than M S one level.
[220] Because I just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [221] Tt.
[222] Well.
[223] There are some jobs that, that we get involved with [...] are very very small [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [224] We've had John on [cough]
Dennis (PS1V2) [225] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [226] John 's been on jobs and he's er
Dennis (PS1V2) [227] Well.
[228] He's been as the R E, which is reasonable to be fair.
Terry (PS1V3) [229] Yeah.
[230] So's Steve
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [231] We
Terry (PS1V3) [232] as R E.
Dennis (PS1V2) [233] We
Hugh (PS1V7) [234] Delegated to issue site instructions?
Dennis (PS1V2) [235] Yes.
Hugh (PS1V7) [236] But not V Os?
Dennis (PS1V2) [237] Not V Os.
Terry (PS1V3) [238] Well.
Hugh (PS1V7) [239] No.
[240] Th the, the letter of delegation
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [241] Pardon?
Hugh (PS1V7) [242] is very specific because
Dennis (PS1V2) [243] Yes.
Hugh (PS1V7) [244] the contractor is very specific.
Terry (PS1V3) [245] Yes.
[246] But we need
Hugh (PS1V7) [247] The contract sorry is very specific.
Terry (PS1V3) [248] [...] I'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between
Hugh (PS1V7) [249] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [250] site instructions and V Os.
Roger (PS1V4) [251] No.
Hugh (PS1V7) [252] No.
Dennis (PS1V2) [253] Well.
[254] No.
[255] No.
[256] We're not.
Hugh (PS1V7) [257] No.
[258] We're not.
[259] Site
Dennis (PS1V2) [260] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [261] instruction does not involve any er any a a an
Terry (PS1V3) [262] Financial [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [263] any financial commitment.
Dennis (PS1V2) [264] And it doesn't change the contract. ...
Hugh (PS1V7) [265] So I mean
Terry (PS1V3) [266] B t t
Hugh (PS1V7) [267] The reason why, no, the reason why these, these
Roger (PS1V4) [268] [...] but they do.
Hugh (PS1V7) [269] procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation
Dennis (PS1V2) [270] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [271] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [272] and I wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure.
[273] So I think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [274] Mm. [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [275] Where, where we're not okay is in the point that Jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer?
Terry (PS1V3) [276] So junior junior R Es then will not issue V Os.
Hugh (PS1V7) [277] Unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and I rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue
Terry (PS1V3) [278] What if they're,wh what if they're below M S two level?
Dennis (PS1V2) [279] No no.
[280] No R E will issue a V O. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [281] They might do if they're M S two I mean [...] the project engineer [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [282] If it's the project engineer.
[283] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [284] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [285] Fine.
Jim (PS1V6) [286] [...] specifications here Trevor?
Trevor (PS1V5) [287] With regards to?
Jim (PS1V6) [288] On one two or
Hugh (PS1V7) [289] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [290] three? [...] does it use the word th the term
Hugh (PS1V7) [291] No.
Jim (PS1V6) [292] project engineer?
Trevor (PS1V5) [293] Definitely
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [294] not in the erm er in the M S ones.
[295] I it involves
Hugh (PS1V7) [296] Does in the two and threes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [297] about erm
Terry (PS1V3) [298] Does in the two and threes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [299] Does in the two and threes.
[300] Yes.
Terry (PS1V3) [301] Cos [...] senior in a lot
Trevor (PS1V5) [302] I mean th that's the title.
[303] Senior project engineer and project engineer.
[304] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [305] Cos that's, that's where my understanding was.
Terry (PS1V3) [306] Oh.
[307] So it's a different issue now.
[308] That's the second issue that you've brought up.
Hugh (PS1V7) [309] It is.
[310] Well.
[311] I wanted to bottom that one because I think it's a fairly easy one to do.
[312] Then, then go on to Jim's point of, come on lads.
[313] What do you mean
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [314] by a project engineer?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [315] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [316] So that's okay.
Hugh (PS1V7) [317] And that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [318] debate
Jim (PS1V6) [319] Yeah.
[320] We'll start that with questioning
Hugh (PS1V7) [321] Jim's point.
Jim (PS1V6) [322] my office.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [323] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [324] Mm.
[325] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [326] There isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are?
Dennis (PS1V2) [327] Yeah.
[328] The first book on the left there Dave by the big fat volume that's called
Dave (PS1V8) [laugh] [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [329] To, to the left of your, your omnibus.
[330] That's it.
[331] ... Ta.
Hugh (PS1V7) [332] Where?
[333] Wha what do we want a project engineer to do?
Jim (PS1V6) [334] I want him to do an M S two or three [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [335] What do we want him to do?
[336] Come on.
Roger (PS1V4) [337] [...] .
[338] Manage that project.
Trevor (PS1V5) [339] Through from conception to completion.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [340] Un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role
Hugh (PS1V7) [341] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [342] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [343] [...] talk to you about you know ne next week
Hugh (PS1V7) [344] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [345] because it's all rolled into the same thing.
Hugh (PS1V7) [346] Right.
Jim (PS1V6) [347] I say it's [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [348] Shall we leave it till then?
Jim (PS1V6) [349] responsibility.
Hugh (PS1V7) [350] Right.
[351] Let, let us leave it till then because I mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures.
Trevor (PS1V5) [352] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [353] But you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end.
[354] ... I can s I can see
Dennis (PS1V2) [355] The role o of
Hugh (PS1V7) [356] I can see what you're driving at.
Dennis (PS1V2) [357] the role of a project engineer is defined in Q S P six.
[358] Which Roger hasn't seen yet [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [359] Yeah [...] the role [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [360] but he but it is the day to day d detailed development
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [361] of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit.
[362] Undertake the requirements of the project quality plan.
[363] Undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual.
[364] In a broad sense. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [365] Mhm. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [366] Which seems alright.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [367] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [368] L let us then debate, I mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece
Jim (PS1V6) [369] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [370] where I presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it.
[371] And that guy may be an M S one.
Jim (PS1V6) [372] The problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the M S ones, M S twos.
Hugh (PS1V7) [373] Right.
[374] We will
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [375] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [376] Okay.
[377] Let's debate that then when we get together.
[378] Thanks for raising it Jim.
[379] Fair point.
Jim (PS1V6) [380] Have you read what [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [381] It's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer.
Jim (PS1V6) [382] Project engineer.
Trevor (PS1V5) [383] The only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular
Hugh (PS1V7) [384] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [385] project.
Hugh (PS1V7) [386] I think we're meeting early next week isn
Jim (PS1V6) [387] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [388] Tuesday isn't it?
Jim (PS1V6) [389] Tuesday [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [390] So we'll bottom that Tuesday.
Trevor (PS1V5) [391] Okay.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dave (PS1V8) [392] Could I briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, I think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, I haven't a clue.
[393] What do you think?
[394] Cos that's exactly what's gonna happen.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dave (PS1V8) [395] Because I've seen
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [396] Oh dear.
Dave (PS1V8) [397] that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they [blowing nose] ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [398] You may be l well be right there.
Roger (PS1V4) [399] Maybe [...] to tell them what liquidated damages [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [400] They need leading by the hand gentlemen.
Terry (PS1V3) [401] Can't we just put a clause [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [402] We need, we need, no.
[403] They don't.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Trevor (PS1V5) [404] Organize everyone by us.
Terry (PS1V3) [laughing] [...] []
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Hugh (PS1V7) [405] Perhaps we should set the course up.
Roger (PS1V4) [406] Course up and [...] .
[407] Eh? [laugh]
Hugh (PS1V7) [408] Absolutely I like that.
[409] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...] [laugh]
Dave (PS1V8) [410] No.
[411] It's very frustrating because I've never never known a client who knew what his losses were.
Hugh (PS1V7) [412] We'll run a course for project managers.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [413] As Hugh, Hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients.
Dave (PS1V8) [414] Well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [415] No.
[416] No.
[417] No.
[418] What we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract
Terry (PS1V3) [419] This is what [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [420] this is what you have to do.
[421] You have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [422] losses
Trevor (PS1V5) [423] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [424] so can we talk about what your losses are?
[425] We w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [426] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [427] disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [428] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [429] and I think we have er a a part to play in that.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [430] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [431] What about my extra costs?
Hugh (PS1V7) [432] And your extra supervision costs.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [433] No.
[434] I was thinking about the client's extra costs.
Hugh (PS1V7) [435] Oh.
Terry (PS1V3) [436] Then the [...] gain
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [437] actually.
[438] [...] overrun by three weeks
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [439] the fact that we've still got our supervision [...] [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [440] Yeah.
[441] But, but we put that in.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [442] Yeah.
[443] But during [...]
Dave (PS1V8) [444] Not only that
Hugh (PS1V7) [445] Yeah.
[446] But we, we should be prompting them.
Dave (PS1V8) [447] [...] course that we know about it.
Trevor (PS1V5) [448] Well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named [...] and he's paying interest
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [449] on that ten million pounds.
Hugh (PS1V7) [450] Extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on.
Terry (PS1V3) [451] [...] be discussed.
Hugh (PS1V7) [452] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [453] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [454] So what
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [455] Good.
Hugh (PS1V7) [456] it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them.
Dennis (PS1V2) [457] That's right.
[458] A and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised.
Terry (PS1V3) [459] Does it have a box for us to put our costs in?
Dennis (PS1V2) [460] Oh yeah.
[461] It starts off with that.
Terry (PS1V3) [462] Thank god for that [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...] [...]
Dave (PS1V8) [463] Th they're, they're, they're not our costs Terry.
[464] They're his costs.
Hugh (PS1V7) [465] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [466] Mm.
Dave (PS1V8) [467] I mean we charge him.
Hugh (PS1V7) [468] Correct.
Dave (PS1V8) [469] He's the one that [...] [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [470] No.
[471] But [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [472] Correct.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [473] Why?
Dave (PS1V8) [474] And we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever.
Dennis (PS1V2) [475] I mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [476] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [477] problems.
Hugh (PS1V7) [478] Mm.
Dave (PS1V8) [479] We have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [480] Right.
Dave (PS1V8) [481] It's easier for
Dennis (PS1V2) [482] Well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it.
Hugh (PS1V7) [483] That's right.
[484] We're now proceeding
Terry (PS1V3) [485] Brendan and Joyce did a twenty five page memo.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [486] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [487] What on liquidated damages?
Hugh (PS1V7) [488] Next.
Terry (PS1V3) [...] [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [489] Shut up [...] .
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [490] S safe, okay.
[491] Procedure K zero stop one, safety related admin.
[492] I'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures.
[493] Management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters.
Hugh (PS1V7) [494] Yes.
Terry (PS1V3) [495] Good.
Jim (PS1V6) [496] Excellent
Terry (PS1V3) [497] Go back to the clerical section
Hugh (PS1V7) [498] You, you'll, you were instrumental about
Dennis (PS1V2) [499] I've been fighting this b
Hugh (PS1V7) [500] that my friend.
Dennis (PS1V2) [501] I've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there.
Terry (PS1V3) [502] Mm.
[503] Good.
Hugh (PS1V7) [504] Good.
[505] Next.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [506] It was [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [507] Erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus K nineteen stop one.
Hugh (PS1V7) [508] The safety one. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [509] Er it talks about erm
Trevor (PS1V5) [510] Safety admin one.
Dennis (PS1V2) [511] Safety admin one.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [512] The functions clerical section, section maintaining registers.
[513] Business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection.
[514] Business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections.
[515] And there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you.
Hugh (PS1V7) [516] Good.
Jim (PS1V6) [517] And I've been ordered to [...] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [518] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [519] Mhm.
Jim (PS1V6) [520] By plant well will be by plant [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [521] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [522] Erm M for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors.
[523] Erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from Dave 's section.
[524] Erm and will
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [525] Eh?
Hugh (PS1V7) [526] Nominated. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [527] to do all the post-contract measure work.
Hugh (PS1V7) [528] Nominated. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [...] [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [529] Come on.
[530] Let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up Den.
Dennis (PS1V2) [531] I'm not.
Trevor (PS1V5) [532] I can't believe Dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [533] [laughing] That's, that isn't []
Hugh (PS1V7) [534] Yes.
[535] Go on.
Dennis (PS1V2) [536] [...] I've been told to change these procedures to.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Trevor (PS1V5) [537] [...] just taken the knife out of your back.
Hugh (PS1V7) [538] Right. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [539] The project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally.
[540] However when specifically requested by the project Q S, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information.
[541] A project Q S is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment.
Terry (PS1V3) [542] So what's the change?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [543] Because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [544] be doing the [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [545] And normally normally they will do that and in, in the future
Trevor (PS1V5) [546] Well [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [547] Yes it will.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [548] [...] they can say, yeah,th the project Q S is just gonna say, measure me all [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [549] That's right.
Terry (PS1V3) [550] I haven't time to go and do that.
Hugh (PS1V7) [551] What I'm looking for, this is part of
Dennis (PS1V2) [552] [...] I know
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [553] Sorry.
Hugh (PS1V7) [554] this is part of the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [555] the spirit.
[556] The reason this came about Dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes.
[557] And the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist.
[558] And in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the R E or the assistant R E to measure, and provide the measure to the Q Ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate.
[559] ... And I don't see anything contentious about that.
Trevor (PS1V5) [560] Can I take it that if
Terry (PS1V3) [561] [...] I don't, I don't like how it is worded then, because I don't think you said that.
[562] Sorry to [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [563] No.
[564] It, it was worded that way because there are
Terry (PS1V3) [565] It says [reading] the project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements [] .
[566] That's what it says.
Dennis (PS1V2) [567] Yes.
[568] He is responsible for that.
Hugh (PS1V7) [569] He is.
[570] And he may delegate that
Dennis (PS1V2) [571] He may delegate to [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [572] I agree with you [...] but
Hugh (PS1V7) [573] and in many cases will delegate that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [574] He is also responsible for the valuation
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [575] He has raised it with the contractor.
Terry (PS1V3) [576] It doesn't say that here. [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [577] It does.
Dave (PS1V8) [578] But there's no [...] .
[579] The letter of delegation normally says that
Terry (PS1V3) [580] It says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally
Dave (PS1V8) [581] The letter of delegation has always said that Q S will measure
Hugh (PS1V7) [582] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [583] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [584] Measure [...] the works
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [585] [...] re [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [586] In, in, in, in the past
Jim (PS1V6) [587] words.
Dennis (PS1V2) [588] the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations.
Dave (PS1V8) [589] Well I don't think
Dennis (PS1V2) [590] Now
Dave (PS1V8) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [591] what Hughie's saying is that that will be done
Hugh (PS1V7) [592] Th that responsibility
Dennis (PS1V2) [593] mutually [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dave (PS1V8) [594] valuations because we've got this [...] [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [595] Mm.
[596] Perhaps you do.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [597] which, which ...
Dave (PS1V8) [598] Personally I don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement.
[599] I think, I think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [600] The offices.
Dave (PS1V8) [601] [laugh] [...] because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole.
[602] It's all part of the measuring anyway.
Trevor (PS1V5) [603] You're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they
Hugh (PS1V7) [604] In accordance with the [...] and the er the [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [605] what do you call it?
Dave (PS1V8) [606] Yeah well.
Hugh (PS1V7) [607] The
Dave (PS1V8) [608] Preamble.
Hugh (PS1V7) [609] preamble.
Trevor (PS1V5) [610] Can I take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the
Hugh (PS1V7) [611] Who does what.
[612] Yes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [613] Who does what because
Hugh (PS1V7) [614] Yes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [615] I don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later
Hugh (PS1V7) [616] Hear hear.
Trevor (PS1V5) [617] on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him.
[618] Because that causes all sorts of problems on the [...] report and, and bad blood all round.
Hugh (PS1V7) [619] Course it did
Trevor (PS1V5) [620] It's not what team work's
Hugh (PS1V7) [621] I mean I, no.
[622] I would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [623] Er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [624] Co in accordance
Dennis (PS1V2) [625] er check list.
Hugh (PS1V7) [626] Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [627] Good.
Jim (PS1V6) [628] Could I could I, could I ask that B E S be taken off the distribution codes.
[629] We do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us.
Trevor (PS1V5) [630] So you want that
Hugh (PS1V7) [631] The answer to that is
Trevor (PS1V5) [632] rewriting then?
Hugh (PS1V7) [633] No.
[634] ... Because I think that there should be no reason why the Q S shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else Jim.
[635] Unless there's
Jim (PS1V6) [636] But he's, but he's not geared up to do it.
Terry (PS1V3) [637] But you've got erm a [...] Q S then.
Hugh (PS1V7) [638] We have. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Jim (PS1V6) [639] [laughing] I'm not too sure that means [...] [] . [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Terry (PS1V3) [640] Well I think, I think [...] bloody robots
Jim (PS1V6) [641] [...] we all were. [laugh]
Terry (PS1V3) [642] in there like.
Hugh (PS1V7) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Terry (PS1V3) [643] [...] electrical [...] away isn't it?
Hugh (PS1V7) [644] [...] Mis yeah.
[645] Mister Metal. [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [646] That's wound the buggers up.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [647] Metal Mickey.
[648] [...] really
Hugh (PS1V7) [649] Metal Mickey.
[650] Well that's [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [651] really a bright spark.
[652] You know. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [653] [...] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [654] What I'm
Hugh (PS1V7) [655] But erm
Jim (PS1V6) [656] what I suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [whispering] [...] []
Hugh (PS1V7) [657] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [658] That is not what we do now.
[659] That is actually saying to the Q S, you've now got authority to come in to B E S and effectively do what you do on the civil side.
[660] And what I'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Jim (PS1V6) [661] And that certainly hasn't
Hugh (PS1V7) [662] Jim?
Jim (PS1V6) [663] been debated.
Hugh (PS1V7) [664] On, on, in many cases
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [665] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [666] Go on.
[667] I mean if I took your line, your, your logic and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when B E S came into, to our organization.
[668] And one of the most significant changes I wanted to make, and I think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our Q Ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work
Jim (PS1V6) [669] Indeed.
Hugh (PS1V7) [670] for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control.
Jim (PS1V6) [671] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [672] It puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on.
[673] ... Now I, I think perhaps you're worrying unduly, Jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now.
[674] The they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct.
Jim (PS1V6) [675] Yes.
Hugh (PS1V7) [676] For them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure.
[677] ... Haven't they?
Jim (PS1V6) [678] Well they don't.
[679] That's just it.
[680] ... If we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that.
[681] That's what I'm saying.
[682] That is supposed to say what we do and what I'm saying is
Hugh (PS1V7) [683] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [684] we don't do that.
[685] I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm saying we don't do it.
Hugh (PS1V7) [686] Well I'll leave that for you to manage.
Jim (PS1V6) [687] And, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do.
Hugh (PS1V7) [688] I, I agree with you.
Jim (PS1V6) [689] They should say what we do do.
Hugh (PS1V7) [690] Or [...] . [laugh]
Trevor (PS1V5) [691] Or what we ought to do.
Hugh (PS1V7) [692] Yes.
Jim (PS1V6) [693] Oh no.
[694] No.
[695] No.
Trevor (PS1V5) [696] Ah!
Hugh (PS1V7) [697] If if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different
Dennis (PS1V2) [698] Well it, I mean if we go down that
Hugh (PS1V7) [699] a different ball game.
Dennis (PS1V2) [700] path er Jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures.
Jim (PS1V6) [701] Yes. [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [702] Because we all do things slightly different at present.
Jim (PS1V6) [703] If that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened.
[704] There is nothing wrong
Hugh (PS1V7) [705] You have a dif
Jim (PS1V6) [706] with that.
[707] But, but, but
Hugh (PS1V7) [708] you have a different quality system for different offices.
Dennis (PS1V2) [709] But Hughie is
Jim (PS1V6) [710] Well you, you have to do in some cases [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [711] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [712] But Hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure.
[713] And as I understood you
Hugh (PS1V7) [714] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [715] again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the B E S office.
Hugh (PS1V7) [716] We well I do, unless that doesn't make sense.
[717] Now I can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if Jim came to me and said, look Hugh, that's bloody silly.
[718] I mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those
Jim (PS1V6) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [719] objectives.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [720] But D Dave, Dave, Dave could not handle, in B E S, what he handles on the civil side.
Dennis (PS1V2) [721] In what respect?
Jim (PS1V6) [722] H he is not staffed up to do what [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [723] [...] could quite easily ask you to do all the erm
Trevor (PS1V5) [724] Running around
Dennis (PS1V2) [725] the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself.
[726] And that is w well within what this procedure says.
Trevor (PS1V5) [727] I mean he does the invoices now doesn't he?
Hugh (PS1V7) [728] Well I understood so.
Trevor (PS1V5) [729] Or the, the certification to the client.
Jim (PS1V6) [730] Yes he does he does the certificate.
[731] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [732] So really all it, all the, this would
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [733] involve them
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [734] doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with.
Jim (PS1V6) [735] Well it doesn't say that though.
Hugh (PS1V7) [736] Yes.
[737] It
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [738] Sorry.
[739] It's
Hugh (PS1V7) [740] Let's
Jim (PS1V6) [741] What I'm, what I'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality. ...
Hugh (PS1V7) [742] Hey Jim
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [743] You will [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [744] the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [745] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [746] try and achieve that objective.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [747] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [748] Not t to drop it straight on them but to say.
[749] look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it.
Jim (PS1V6) [750] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [751] I mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the Q S would need to go and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [752] Right.
Trevor (PS1V5) [753] get involved in the measures on some of your work. ...
Jim (PS1V6) [754] Well he doesn't.
[755] That's what I'm saying.
Trevor (PS1V5) [756] He hasn't done yet.
Jim (PS1V6) [757] You can't have that, he doesn't.
[758] Have a word with Dave and ask him himself
Hugh (PS1V7) [759] Dave Dave was a party to this s
Dennis (PS1V2) [760] D Dave, Dave wrote this [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [761] procedure.
Dennis (PS1V2) [762] did the change.
Jim (PS1V6) [763] Well you may be certain he didn't consult with me.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [764] Yeah. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [765] And that's the point I'm making.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [766] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [767] These procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the [...] Dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for B E S, and then, and then I'm told, oh, that's what we do for B E S, I tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff.
Hugh (PS1V7) [768] Hey Jim why?
[769] Why [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [770] [...] back on him?
Hugh (PS1V7) [771] Jim.
Jim (PS1V6) [772] Cos I haven't had an opportunity to do it to [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [773] Why should B E S be a different, a different situation from bridges or works?
Jim (PS1V6) [774] Well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point.
[775] It hasn't actually happened.
Terry (PS1V3) [776] Yes.
[777] You're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what Jim's saying.
[778] You're implementing a procedure
Hugh (PS1V7) [779] Within B E S.
Terry (PS1V3) [780] which says you're gonna do this
Hugh (PS1V7) [781] Right?
Terry (PS1V3) [782] Sorry.
[783] Sorry.
[784] No.
[785] It doesn't say that.
[786] This procedure should say you do this.
[787] That's what we're doing at the moment.
Hugh (PS1V7) [788] Right.
Terry (PS1V3) [789] [...] he's quite right in saying [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [790] [...] book is an instruction.
Terry (PS1V3) [791] Yeah.
[792] And Jim's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [793] quite right in saying, it does not happen.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [794] But it's not the first time that a procedure's
Hugh (PS1V7) [795] Finished.
Roger (PS1V4) [796] come out early.
Terry (PS1V3) [797] So you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information
Dennis (PS1V2) [798] [...] but can be briefed [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [799] We are introducing a procedure.
Terry (PS1V3) [800] Yes.
Jim (PS1V6) [801] And in order to c come in and say
Terry (PS1V3) [802] [...] like that?
[803] No.
Jim (PS1V6) [804] why don't you do this?
[805] And I could say well I, I've never done this.
[806] I can't do this, and Q S is not geared up to do it.
Terry (PS1V3) [807] What [...] [...] ?
Jim (PS1V6) [808] And straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work.
Roger (PS1V4) [809] Yeah.
[810] But it's
Hugh (PS1V7) [811] Right.
[812] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [813] come out, it's come out early.
[814] Damn it all.
[815] We had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [816] We've gotta keep repeating that.
Roger (PS1V4) [817] Er
Terry (PS1V3) [818] [...] does it?
Roger (PS1V4) [819] put that into the bridge office in [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [820] Mhm.
Roger (PS1V4) [821] intended [...] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [822] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [823] The thing with this [...] , the thing that puzzles me a bit er
Terry (PS1V3) [824] Just because you booked that [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [825] on this, and I'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as I understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization ... er in other words there's a draft procedure produced.
[826] That is sent round to people who will have been involved.
[827] They have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments
Trevor (PS1V5) [828] Taking account of some of the comments.
[829] It can never take account of all the comments.
Hugh (PS1V7) [830] Of course it can't.
[831] It will always be compromise.
[832] But by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then ...
Terry (PS1V3) [833] We don't see
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [834] [...] .
[835] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [836] all the drafts [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [837] No.
[838] Wh what wh where
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [839] [...] going on.
Trevor (PS1V5) [840] that falls down Hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment.
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [841] They never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but I've [...] those because, because I thought somebody else's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [842] comments were more
Jim (PS1V6) [843] [...] a lot more slice [...] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [844] No.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [845] No.
Dennis (PS1V2) [846] Not not, not
Jim (PS1V6) [847] It's just a modification from
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [848] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [849] [...] the slices
Dennis (PS1V2) [850] L lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where
Hugh (PS1V7) [851] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [852] it is a er er a specific
Trevor (PS1V5) [853] Direct.
Dennis (PS1V2) [854] request or a direct request that something is changed, then it
Hugh (PS1V7) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [855] is given to in this particular case the Dave s of the world or other function heads and told
Hugh (PS1V7) [856] I would still like to issue
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [857] that.
[858] Er a and I think we issue it and then t in Jim's situation, erm I think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization.
[859] Or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look.
Trevor (PS1V5) [860] Well surely it, it just means that in in Jim's organization
Hugh (PS1V7) [861] I, I don't see the problem.
Trevor (PS1V5) [862] that when specifically requested w will apply in
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [863] in ninety nine percent of the cases. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [864] That will be reflected in the quality plan anyway.
[865] So
Trevor (PS1V5) [866] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [867] where's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [868] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [869] the problem?
Hugh (PS1V7) [870] Mm.
[871] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [872] I, I don't see a problem [...] .
Trevor (PS1V5) [873] but when your project
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [874] coordinators talk to
Hugh (PS1V7) [875] In concept there should not be a problem
Trevor (PS1V5) [876] the erm
Terry (PS1V3) [877] You might not have a problem
Trevor (PS1V5) [878] Q S
Terry (PS1V3) [879] in four weeks time. [...] [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [880] [...] with Dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow
Dennis (PS1V2) [881] Well as I understand it, this is what's happening at
Hugh (PS1V7) [882] Well I still don't
Dennis (PS1V2) [883] present.
Hugh (PS1V7) [884] I don't, I still don't
Trevor (PS1V5) [885] No.
[886] But
Hugh (PS1V7) [887] accept that.
Trevor (PS1V5) [888] at present effectively that
Dennis (PS1V2) [889] He agrees valuations.
Hugh (PS1V7) [890] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [891] Mhm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [892] And he can delegate the site measurement to your staff.
Hugh (PS1V7) [893] And in most cases will do.
Roger (PS1V4) [894] As long as it's a [...] you do your [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [895] And he processes the paper.
Trevor (PS1V5) [896] And once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation [...] .
Terry (PS1V3) [897] [...] anything to your section at the moment does he?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [898] No.
Terry (PS1V3) [899] It's the other way round.
Trevor (PS1V5) [900] Yes.
[901] Yeah that's true.
Jim (PS1V6) [902] For long enough I've said budget engineers run the job.
Terry (PS1V3) [903] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [904] Where I mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the Q S.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [905] Naturally. ...
Jim (PS1V6) [906] And many of my staff in s in not just [...] but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, I'm telling you you'll do this.
[907] Now it's how you read that into that procedure.
[908] That's the problem with it.
[909] There's no problem I
Hugh (PS1V7) [910] I understand that.
Jim (PS1V6) [911] mean that, you know, why?
[912] Why should the Q S estimate all our work?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [913] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [914] The there is no real good reason
Hugh (PS1V7) [915] Why he shouldn't.
Jim (PS1V6) [916] why he shouldn't other than the fact that [...] keeping
Hugh (PS1V7) [917] In fact there's a [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [918] up to date.
Hugh (PS1V7) [919] There's a very good reason why he
Terry (PS1V3) [920] Could he do that?
Hugh (PS1V7) [921] should.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [922] Perhaps.
Terry (PS1V3) [923] Is he doing that now?
Jim (PS1V6) [924] No.
[925] No.
[926] No.
Hugh (PS1V7) [927] Not yet.
[928] No.
[929] But he does, he does
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [930] all yours.
Terry (PS1V3) [931] I thought we had a
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [932] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [933] procedure that said they did it.
Jim (PS1V6) [934] Aha.
Hugh (PS1V7) [935] We do.
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [936] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [937] B E S?
Jim (PS1V6) [938] Well [...] you told me
Terry (PS1V3) [939] I mean come on it's the same ball game.
Hugh (PS1V7) [940] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [941] I mean I [...] [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [942] It is the same ball game and, and as far as I, as far as I'm concerned it makes more sense
Terry (PS1V3) [943] So why aren't the Q S
Hugh (PS1V7) [944] for
Terry (PS1V3) [945] [...] B E S work now?
Trevor (PS1V5) [946] And P Way work?
Terry (PS1V3) [947] And P Way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [948] We are doing.
Dave (PS1V8) [949] I'm afraid I'm not helped much
Hugh (PS1V7) [950] We are doing.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [951] I'm, I'm gonna call a halt to this here because without David here who
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [952] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [953] knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices.
[954] ... I think.
[955] So what I'm, what I propose, is that this goes out because I don't think it changes anything significantly.
[956] Erm Jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then I think you need to talk to David and I. ...
Jim (PS1V6) [957] Yeah.
[958] Well I've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to Dave about it.
[959] And he knows this can't be worked.
[960] That's why
Hugh (PS1V7) [961] Well I
Jim (PS1V6) [962] I'm rather surprised that it's, we're
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [963] Will it work?
Jim (PS1V6) [964] still perpetuating this
Hugh (PS1V7) [965] Well alright then.
[966] The other option
Jim (PS1V6) [967] a and, and, and the S on the M as it were.
Hugh (PS1V7) [968] Yes.
[969] Right.
[970] The oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [...] [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [971] because it was supposed to be briefed last
Hugh (PS1V7) [972] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [973] month.
Hugh (PS1V7) [974] Well in that, in that case
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [975] when
Jim (PS1V6) [976] I've seen, I've seen all this
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [977] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [978] in that case when
Roger (PS1V4) [...] [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [979] It is ours.
Terry (PS1V3) [980] Well we can't [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [981] We've got a
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [982] Right.
[983] In that case Jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with Dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned.
Roger (PS1V4) [984] But surely [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [985] we can still issue it, we can still brief
Hugh (PS1V7) [986] This issue
Roger (PS1V4) [987] that issue?
Hugh (PS1V7) [988] Of course you can.
Trevor (PS1V5) [989] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [990] Well.
[991] It is
Trevor (PS1V5) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [992] [...] work
Trevor (PS1V5) [993] It's been issued Roger.
Dennis (PS1V2) [994] I think, I, I personally, I think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work.
Trevor (PS1V5) [995] Ca can't you just, can't Jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the Q S has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification
Hugh (PS1V7) [996] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [997] based on that?
Hugh (PS1V7) [998] Yeah.
[999] The
Dennis (PS1V2) [1000] I
Hugh (PS1V7) [1001] only re yes by all means
Dennis (PS1V2) [1002] [...] our project quality plan check list reflects that.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1003] [...] . ...
Terry (PS1V3) [1004] Naturally your
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1005] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [1006] your way out is to get
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1007] D Dave to write a letter, saying for all projects I wish him to do
Trevor (PS1V5) [1008] Y no.
[1009] No.
[1010] No.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1011] Terry, Terry there's no point.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1012] All all that, all that
Hugh (PS1V7) [1013] That is stupid.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1014] All that Jim's trying to do
Hugh (PS1V7) [1015] [...] the reason why
Dennis (PS1V2) [1016] Is to change [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1017] I, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.
Terry (PS1V3) [1018] No.
[1019] No.
[1020] I know but
Hugh (PS1V7) [1021] It, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1022] the procedures in a different way.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1023] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1024] The procedures
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1025] were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the Q Ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent.
[1026] Now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure.
[1027] But at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct.
[1028] These guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view I want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct.
[1029] That is how we came to the conclusion that they should be
Jim (PS1V6) [1030] [...] I, I, I ... I certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all.
[1031] But we don't even measure yet [...] .
[1032] I, I've yet, I've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work.
[1033] It's a very difficult job to measure is M and E.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1034] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1035] Well a lot of them are just
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1036] [...] because
Hugh (PS1V7) [1037] lump sums aren't they?
Jim (PS1V6) [1038] Well I mean a lot of it can't be measured you know?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1039] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1040] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [1041] Hundreds of miles of, of cables
Terry (PS1V3) [1042] Cables
Jim (PS1V6) [1043] on a site
Terry (PS1V3) [1044] Trunking
Jim (PS1V6) [1045] for example.
Terry (PS1V3) [1046] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [1047] You know we we are not geared
Terry (PS1V3) [1048] S s [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [1049] up to measure yet properly.
[1050] And we need to be.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1051] Right.
Jim (PS1V6) [1052] So I'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying.
[1053] A and all I'm saying is that and I rest my case
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1054] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [1055] is that
Hugh (PS1V7) [1056] If we came to be audited
Jim (PS1V6) [1057] procedures should be [...] what is happening, not what our aspirations are.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1058] No.
[1059] I'm sorry.
Jim (PS1V6) [1060] Particularly when they're long way [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1061] No.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1062] But, but when you're measuring something
Dennis (PS1V2) [1063] I don't want [...] otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures [...] .
Jim (PS1V6) [1064] But also [...] is it necessary.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1065] Jim
Jim (PS1V6) [1066] So we can make [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1067] let's issue that.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1068] Because
Hugh (PS1V7) [1069] You, David and I need to sort out what we need to do to implement it
Jim (PS1V6) [1070] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1071] and we will then implement it.
[1072] For you.
Jim (PS1V6) [1073] We've also gotta recognize clearly Dennis that civils and M and E cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering [...] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [1074] I'm s not suggesting they could.
Jim (PS1V6) [1075] And some management procedures cannot work very well in M and E as they can in civils.
[1076] Not because
Hugh (PS1V7) [1077] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [1078] you know we don't want to [...] in, in, in the civils team or what have you.
[1079] Indeed it works very well.
[1080] But in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on M and E
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1081] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [1082] engineering.
[1083] They've got totally different algorithms.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1084] Well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them.
[1085] I mean but if
Jim (PS1V6) [1086] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1087] if we are gonna have
Jim (PS1V6) [1088] It is a problem.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1089] procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then I think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it.
Jim (PS1V6) [1090] No.
[1091] I totally agree with you.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1092] It's gotta be married together.
Jim (PS1V6) [1093] Totally agree with you. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [1094] [...] cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure.
[1095] It just cannot work every time. ...
Hugh (PS1V7) [1096] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1097] The on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way
Dennis (PS1V2) [1098] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1099] that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated.
Jim (PS1V6) [1100] Th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they?
Hugh (PS1V7) [1101] Yes.
Jim (PS1V6) [1102] The best practice in, sometimes in M and E is, is quite different from the best practice in the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1103] Mm.
Jim (PS1V6) [1104] civils.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1105] Right.
[1106] Le okay.
[1107] We can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home.
[1108] I believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to Roger and Terry
Dennis (PS1V2) [1109] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1110] and Dennis and Alan.
[1111] Er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you David and I need to address that
Jim (PS1V6) [1112] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1113] erm and find a solution.
[1114] If when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure.
Jim (PS1V6) [1115] [whispering] I agree with you [] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1116] Mm?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1117] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1118] Okay? ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [1119] Er D two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts.
[1120] Erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards.
[1121] Er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like.
[1122] So it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1123] What, what was the reference of the urgent work one?
[1124] I, I've got that down as D two point three
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1125] Was it three point two?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1126] Mm.
Norman (PS1V9) [1127] I've got that down as tw D D two point three as well.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1128] Yeah. ...
Norman (PS1V9) [1129] Very good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1130] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1131] Mm.
Norman (PS1V9) [1132] I wouldn't have spotted that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1133] Aren't you observant.
[1134] You're absolutely bloody right aren't you?
Hugh (PS1V7) [1135] Got two D two point threes?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1136] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1137] Yeah.
[1138] But we seem to have, right, I'll, I'll take that point back.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1139] Okay.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1140] I'm sorry I shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1141] report Dennis.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1142] If you if you would please Trevor.
[1143] Yes.
[1144] That's the system.
Terry (PS1V3) [1145] Mm.
[1146] You fell for that Trevor.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1147] I'm sorry I haven't got one with me.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1148] Right. ...
Trevor (PS1V5) [1149] Right.
[1150] Well
Hugh (PS1V7) [1151] And
Trevor (PS1V5) [1152] I'll just plug that up that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1153] We'll expect one from
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1154] you then?
[1155] I'll tell Trudy's [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1156] So it's not D is it D two point three or not?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1157] I'll, I'll have to check with her another time.
Terry (PS1V3) [1158] Right.
[1159] Okay.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1160] Yes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1161] Apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1162] you see?
[1163] So I said, should I fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1164] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1165] We'll get there.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1166] Erm
Trevor (PS1V5) [1167] He said I could leave it with him and he'd sort it out.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1168] there have er
Terry (PS1V3) [1169] [...] [laughing] first mistake [] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [1170] there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but Hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1171] Correct.
[1172] And I've rai I raised it this morning.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1173] Right.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1174] And erm in the context of Regional Railways
Dennis (PS1V2) [1175] Fine.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1176] wanting them from us.
Terry (PS1V3) [1177] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1178] But I must say that we're using these client reports and [...] managers within each section
Hugh (PS1V7) [1179] I know you are.
[1180] [...] the only one who is.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1181] are finding them extremely useful
Hugh (PS1V7) [1182] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1183] in keeping an idea of where the jobs are,
Hugh (PS1V7) [1184] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1185] and the comments I'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1186] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1187] They do find them extremely helpful.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1188] Have you run off
Roger (PS1V4) [1189] C
Trevor (PS1V5) [1190] any interim report from t the computer yet?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1191] No cos I wasn't too sure if it was available [...] you telling me it is available.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1192] A as I said this morning t to the management team it is available.
[1193] The only problem is as a one-off exercise on
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1194] er existing jobs.
[1195] We will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit.
[1196] Including
Dennis (PS1V2) [1197] Right.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1198] all the variations and what not.
[1199] And that's something that Mike and Ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit.
[1200] Erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client [...] .
[1201] But it, it, it's ready
Dennis (PS1V2) [1202] When, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available? ...
Trevor (PS1V5) [1203] The Q S [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1204] the physical works [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1205] The physical works.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1206] Yeah.
[1207] We're gonna start specifying that now and Brian will, will er
Dennis (PS1V2) [1208] Right.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1209] will start to, to, to work that up.
[1210] But of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1211] Right.
[1212] So that's gonna incorporate the Q S cost report as well as the physical works is it?
Trevor (PS1V5) [1213] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1214] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1215] Yes.
[1216] A and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm
Dennis (PS1V2) [1217] Right.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1218] thing to specify.
[1219] As it's a p it's a pound to a penny
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1220] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1221] that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system
Dennis (PS1V2) [1222] Fine.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1223] because it will be very complex.
[1224] If you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and
Hugh (PS1V7) [1225] Make it simple.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1226] print it all back again.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1227] M see if we can make it
Trevor (PS1V5) [1228] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1229] fairly simple.
[1230] Could I just say at this point, this, this is one area where I would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1231] Keep it simple and build up on it
Hugh (PS1V7) [1232] Beca
Trevor (PS1V5) [1233] if we need to rather
Hugh (PS1V7) [1234] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1235] than go the other way.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1236] Mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment.
[1237] And w we we're putting together what we think the client wants.
[1238] What I'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really I don't want all that information or I want this information.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1239] Or [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1240] And I would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and
Dennis (PS1V2) [1241] Mm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1242] we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1243] Yeah.
Norman (PS1V9) [1244] Is there anything within these
Hugh (PS1V7) [1245] It is the first step.
Norman (PS1V9) [1246] for the prediction of fees?
[1247] I mean we've just
Trevor (PS1V5) [1248] Yes.
Norman (PS1V9) [1249] got something back from Intercity ... on the P S work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1250] Nine months.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1251] [...] the football [...] ?
Norman (PS1V9) [1252] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1253] Yeah.
[1254] Well
Hugh (PS1V7) [1255] Regional railways have asked for that as well.
Norman (PS1V9) [1256] Have they?
Trevor (PS1V5) [1257] Yes.
[1258] Erm that that
Norman (PS1V9) [1259] Well Dennis er Roger's been doing for it for Leeds North West haven't you?
Trevor (PS1V5) [1260] He has.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1261] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1262] But he's been doing it manually haven't you Rog?
Terry (PS1V3) [1263] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1264] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1265] Be be because I don't think you can trust the forecast reports from DOPACS.
[1266] I think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y
Jim (PS1V6) [1267] It's too fragile isn't it?
Trevor (PS1V5) [1268] It's far too fragile.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1269] Mm.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1270] It it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er I don't think that's
Jim (PS1V6) [1271] [...] computer system's tying your hands behind your back.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1272] Yes.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1273] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [1274] Yes.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1275] So, so really
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1276] we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to
Hugh (PS1V7) [1277] Well if, if you remember we, we agreed with Keith he would have a think [...] that and a talk to
Trevor (PS1V5) [1278] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1279] Roy er Roy
Trevor (PS1V5) [1280] You'd remind him about it Hugh.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1281] Yeah.
[1282] But what I'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough?
[1283] Mm.
[1284] This is what you want.
[1285] If we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1286] Mhm.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1287] If we do this it will be a lot more meaningful.
[1288] Is that acceptable?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1289] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1290] One point
Hugh (PS1V7) [1291] Fine.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1292] that occurred to me where we could
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1293] perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing.
[1294] Cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1295] Mm.
[1296] Don't like the sound of that.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1297] Er
Jim (PS1V6) [1298] [...] the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1299] No.
[1300] Cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's [...]
Jim (PS1V6) [1301] It's it's a very minor part of the operation.
Terry (PS1V3) [1302] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1303] I think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1304] very very small fees attached to them.
Terry (PS1V3) [1305] Yeah.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1306] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1307] [...] which [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1308] It's, it's hardly worth doing. [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1309] at the present time we're saying to [...] on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1310] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1311] And i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore
Hugh (PS1V7) [1312] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1313] he can almost do that sum himself.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1314] Yes.
[1315] I agree.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1316] Er er I think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1317] The trouble is Dennis a lot of our
Dennis (PS1V2) [1318] [...] little jobs.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1319] a lot of our clients
Hugh (PS1V7) [1320] But on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1321] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Trevor (PS1V5) [1322] But a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there.
[1323] Anything.
[1324] And th they, they've got this sort of
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1325] But this is where we need to talk to the client
Trevor (PS1V5) [1326] Yes.
[1327] Of course they are.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1328] isn't it?
Jim (PS1V6) [1329] J j just agree with client he might, might be [...] prepared to accept on a quarterly basis
Hugh (PS1V7) [1330] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [1331] you know?
[1332] I mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month.
[1333] One could argue
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1334] Yeah.
Jim (PS1V6) [1335] if we're not careful we'll be causing him work.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1336] Oh.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1337] know what they want half of them anyway when they're [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1338] Ah.
[1339] Let us halt it there.
Trevor (PS1V5) [1340] [...] the customers.
[1341] Yeah.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1342] As er I said before.
[1343] Let us sit down, Trev, and see what is sensible
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1344] for us to provide them with.
[1345] Go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you.
[1346] It will be meaningful.
[1347] Is that good enough?
[1348] And the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous.
[1349] Because what they're getting now is nothing.
Roger (PS1V4) [1350] Mm.
[1351] Well [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1352] And I'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else.
Roger (PS1V4) [1353] You see even from Leeds North West [...] the outside party job and the P T pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing.
[1354] But what we do is we estimate three months
Trevor (PS1V5) [1355] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1356] and divide by three.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1357] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1358] Then you get an average,
Hugh (PS1V7) [1359] Not bad.
Roger (PS1V4) [1360] you know, and that's, that's the way [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1361] What's that mean?
Roger (PS1V4) [1362] Mm?
Hugh (PS1V7) [1363] No.
[1364] I think's it's quite generous
Trevor (PS1V5) [1365] Don't be mean [...] .
Hugh (PS1V7) [1366] actually.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1367] Next one Den.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1368] Well.
[1369] There aren't any more.
[1370] Ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which I haven't briefed.
[1371] Some of them are fairly minor and it's [...] to read them.
[1372] Others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing,
Hugh (PS1V7) [1373] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1374] are currently being revised yet again.
[1375] So I'll pick them up at the next brief.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1376] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1377] I think an hour of this is about enough isn't it?
Hugh (PS1V7) [1378] Den that was great.
[1379] I mean I know there's been a lot of debate and I know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Hugh (PS1V7) [1380] but ... the fact that there's been so much debate
Dennis (PS1V2) [1381] If, if, if you say, Mary had a little lamb
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1382] Mary had a [...] [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1383] it will go down in the Oxford Dictionary or something.
[1384] Right.
[1385] ... We've got that out the way.
[1386] Accidents on site.
[1387] Bridge office report.
[1388] Fifteen four ninety three.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1389] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1390] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1391] You've got it?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1392] Yeah.
[1393] We should all have received a report from Roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites.
[1394] One, both were dumpers I think weren't they? ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1395] I haven't seen that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1396] Haven't you?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1397] Team brief items here we are.
[1398] There we are.
Roger (PS1V4) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1399] Haven't you?
[1400] Tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1401] They were sent down on time I think weren't they?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1402] You did.
[1403] It was a very good report.
Roger (PS1V4) [1404] Oh.
[1405] Well.
[1406] Just cos they came down doesn't make the [...] bit of [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1407] Here we are.
[1408] It was dated the fifteenth of April nineteen ninety three.
[1409] Erm and erm one was at Norfolk Park viaduct.
[1410] A mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1411] We briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember.
Roger (PS1V4) [1412] He had his head jammed or something
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1413] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1414] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1415] I it shot up in the air [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1416] Yeah.
[1417] You mentioned
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1418] The man basket
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1419] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1420] shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder.
[1421] The helmet saved his life.
[1422] So.
[1423] I think that's worth briefing.
[1424] Erm
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1425] Briefed it last time.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1426] Yeah.
[1427] Right?
Terry (PS1V3) [1428] Okay.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1429] We don't need to do it this time.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1430] We didn't have the facts you see last time.
[1431] Written down.
[1432] It was al it was all [...] facts [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1433] verbally.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1434] Yeah.
[1435] Next one is erm on Bridge three O six eight A, Reford.
[1436] A dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier ... and [...] that's some p part of the temporary works.
[1437] Striking
Terry (PS1V3) [1438] Jumbo scaffolding.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1439] strike, that's right, Jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg.
[1440] Okay?
[1441] The other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one I hasten to add
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1442] collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [1443] And I'm
Terry (PS1V3) [1444] Why?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1445] not sure
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1446] Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1447] I will say that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1448] It, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1449] Was it [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1450] Doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1451] Was it the same dumper?
[1452] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1453] No.
[1454] It isn't.
Roger (PS1V4) [1455] [...] what are the recommendations?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1456] What are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight?
[1457] Recommended course of action and stuff like that.
[1458] We're not [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1459] That's a good question Terry. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [1460] Were these dumper drivers certificated?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1461] Why it happened?
[1462] I mean
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1463] I've [...] [...] of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible.
Terry (PS1V3) [1464] Oh.
[1465] It's nowt to do with us then isn't it?
Roger (PS1V4) [1466] Well.
[1467] I'm I mean
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1468] I'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1469] No.
[1470] It's s
Roger (PS1V4) [1471] in telling us [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1472] I don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1473] Because I'm supposed to report all accidents
Dennis (PS1V2) [1474] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1475] to here.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1476] Yes.
[1477] He is.
[1478] It's it's my
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1479] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1480] fault.
[1481] I should
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1482] Because
Dennis (PS1V2) [1483] not have put them on here without considering
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1484] what you said there Mr .
Roger (PS1V4) [1485] Yes.
[1486] Thank you.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1487] Erm quite a valid point.
[1488] The, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er
Terry (PS1V3) [1489] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1490] Well.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1491] the use of dumpers on er [...] sites.
Roger (PS1V4) [1492] I think we should.
[1493] There are two points that I, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it.
[1494] One would be
Dennis (PS1V2) [1495] Crippled him.
Roger (PS1V4) [1496] were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had
Terry (PS1V3) [1497] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1498] they been serviced properly?
[1499] Which is something which happens which is done through R Es.
[1500] And the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have?
Terry (PS1V3) [1501] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1502] Even if it was only a car driver's license.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1503] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1504] And did we er
Terry (PS1V3) [1505] A a and
Dennis (PS1V2) [1506] subject them to a drugs and alcohol test
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1507] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1508] afterwards.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1509] Oh ho
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1510] A and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan?
Roger (PS1V4) [1511] Or was he driving it backwards? [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1512] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [1513] or whatever.
Terry (PS1V3) [1514] Yeah.
[1515] I've seen dumpers driven over
Roger (PS1V4) [1516] Upside-down maybe.
Terry (PS1V3) [1517] two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1518] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1519] Good.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1520] Thank you for those all the same Roger despite what was said.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1521] D do you want a little one from me then?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1522] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [1523] That that near miss thing at erm Dewsbury.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1524] Oh.
[1525] Yes.
[1526] Please. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [1527] This is where there wasn't an accident, thank God, but we did find
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1528] out er we had nobody on site at the time.
[1529] Work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a Saturday night to carry out some pointing
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1530] Ha we've had this one.
Roger (PS1V4) [1531] only
Dennis (PS1V2) [1532] We haven't briefed it.
Roger (PS1V4) [1533] We haven't briefed it.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1534] Did we not brief it last month?
Roger (PS1V4) [1535] No.
[1536] We haven't briefed [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1537] No.
[1538] We discussed it.
[1539] We did it at the safety meeting.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1540] One which
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1541] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1542] Erm work was organized during to [...] Saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks.
[1543] And for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the Saturday afternoon and decided to do it then.
[1544] And he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1545] staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot. [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1546] His staff?
Roger (PS1V4) [1547] [...] his staff.
[1548] Yeah.
[1549] There was nobody else's staff around at the time.
[1550] ... It's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1551] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1552] although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards.
[1553] And didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses.
[1554] He said that it had been done wrong.
[1555] He's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this I think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Roger (PS1V4) [1556] and didn't stop it. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1557] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1558] And so condoned what was going on.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1559] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1560] And it's the major contractor.
[1561] Er may as well tell you i it's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1562] So possession had already been arranged?
Roger (PS1V4) [1563] For the night.
Terry (PS1V3) [1564] The April the ninth.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1565] For the night.
[1566] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1567] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1568] But they did it.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1569] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1570] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1571] That's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it.
[1572] ... So.
[1573] [...] we've actually found it.
[1574] ... Could have been an inquiry into a death.
[1575] Quite easily.
[1576] Er yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1577] Thank you for that Terry
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1578] It was at Dewsbury?
Roger (PS1V4) [1579] Dewsbury station.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1580] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1581] I think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1582] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1583] removed them from our approved list for a, a period.
[1584] Erm to show how serious we consider
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1585] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1586] And the subbie by the way who did the work
Dennis (PS1V2) [1587] the incident to be.
Roger (PS1V4) [1588] we're banning him for further [...] and I'm gonna [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1589] Whatever.
Roger (PS1V4) [1590] saying, ban him for life.
[1591] [...] again.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1592] Yeah.
[1593] Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1594] [...] .
[1595] What was his name? ...
Roger (PS1V4) [1596] I'll let you know.
[1597] In fact I'll let you have a copy of what I've got this
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1598] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1599] P Pa Pete I think.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1600] That's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger.
Roger (PS1V4) [1601] Pete .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1602] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1603] [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1604] Cos he might [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1605] Ah.
[1606] But Pete might just come out in his wife's name next week
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1607] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [1608] and start trading.
[1609] You've got no idea.
Roger (PS1V4) [1610] This subcontractor has worked for for a number of years.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1611] So.
[1612] It's not a fly by night firm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1613] No.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1614] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1615] Cos they'd be in [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1616] Well.
[1617] He'd just
Dennis (PS1V2) [1618] Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1619] Job done.
Roger (PS1V4) [1620] [...] go to the wedding but [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1621] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [1622] That's what's probable. ... [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1623] Oh my God
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1624] Alright.
[1625] Okay let's have a look.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1626] Right?
[1627] Next one.
[1628] I'm gonna go into the erm the Irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning.
[1629] Which Norm [...] that.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1630] Yeah.
[1631] I know about that.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1632] Okay.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1633] Right. ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [1634] Potential work.
[1635] Erm Chris 's visit on the eleventh of June, I think we briefed last time?
Terry (PS1V3) [1636] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1637] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1638] Er I think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er I, I think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on Chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry.
[1639] And the more people that know what good work we do the better.
[1640] ... Provision of photographic services.
[1641] ... Over to you my friend.
Terry (PS1V3) [1642] Oh.
[1643] Provision of photographic services?
[1644] Right.
[1645] Erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by Intercity East Coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal B R er service.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1646] Now.
[1647] Surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a DOPACS number?
[1648] Yeah.
[1649] Surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs.
Roger (PS1V4) [1650] Is this the external
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1651] Yes.
Roger (PS1V4) [1652] request request for external
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1653] Mm?
Roger (PS1V4) [1654] services?
Terry (PS1V3) [1655] Well.
[1656] B b w w why?
[1657] Why can't you just use a task request form that says.
[1658] Please p
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1659] Well.
[1660] I mean [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1661] please provide
Dennis (PS1V2) [1662] Prints off the following negative numbers
Terry (PS1V3) [1663] four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so. [snaps fingers]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1664] Splendid.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1665] Are you gonna write [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1666] And put the DOPACS number on.
[1667] You're gonna on something.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1668] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1669] Copy it to Andrew and then Andrew knows when the I B I S invoice comes forward that it's something to be
Dennis (PS1V2) [1670] Then he'll sign it off.
Terry (PS1V3) [1671] paid for.
[1672] Because we've got thousands of I B I S invoices that come to us that are not for us.
[1673] And, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1674] up
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1675] Okay.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1676] Good.
[1677] Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1678] You're pointing
Terry (PS1V3) [1679] a and it's come from Peter
Roger (PS1V4) [1680] Oh.
[1681] Will you stop being [...] .
[1682] You've got to do something wrong [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1683] It's come from Peter
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1684] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [1685] they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1686] Mm. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...] [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1687] Right.
[1688] That's it.
[1689] I have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector.
[1690] What a shame.
Terry (PS1V3) [1691] We have.
[1692] It's in the Permanent Way office's secure room.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1693] No.
[1694] I mean in here.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1695] You [...] .
[1696] But you never told me to bring it down.
Terry (PS1V3) [1697] No.
[1698] But we could send for it.
[1699] If
Dennis (PS1V2) [1700] Oh.
[1701] No.
[1702] No.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1703] No.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1704] Let's not bother.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1705] Alright.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1706] I'll, I'll quickly run through.
[1707] What it is it's the Intercity core brief
Terry (PS1V3) [1708] Oh!
Dennis (PS1V2) [1709] That's why I
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1710] I've seen it.
[1711] We've had it, a copy of it [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1712] Have you got a copy of this?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1713] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1714] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1715] Good.
[1716] Good, good, good, good, good.
Hugh (PS1V7) [1717] Have we?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1718] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1719] What's it about?
[1720] Does it tell us who's gonna own this
Dennis (PS1V2) [1721] It gives us feedback
Terry (PS1V3) [1722] this line?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1723] on the core nine brief
Terry (PS1V3) [1724] Aargh.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1725] It gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared
Terry (PS1V3) [1726] Anything?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1727] in Railnews.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1728] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1729] And it gives us a er tt details of the current Intercity marketing strategy which [...] is again
Terry (PS1V3) [1730] Not interested in that either.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1731] Yeah.
[1732] We, we have [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1733] Good.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1734] That's right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Roger (PS1V4) [1735] [laughing] And get a green ticket [] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1736] So.
[1737] They're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1738] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1739] Burn more fuel and just travel on a train.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1740] Extra [...] fuel
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1741] Environmental [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1742] Yeah.
[1743] It is.
[1744] Next time any other business
Dennis (PS1V2) [1745] Right.
[1746] So.
[1747] Hello Den.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1748] I've I've just come back on that D two stop three.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1749] No.
[1750] Sorry.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1751] Yes.
Terry (PS1V3) [1752] Please do Den.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1753] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1754] The, the D two stop three the work of an
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1755] Ah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1756] urgent nature
Terry (PS1V3) [1757] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1758] erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed.
[1759] But it was quite a significant change that we were [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1760] Oh.
[1761] So we d we
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1762] D seven was er er work on emergent nature
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1763] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1764] Indeed.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1765] No.
[1766] It's been put through as the procedures.
Terry (PS1V3) [1767] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1768] Cos people [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1769] D seven was the acknowledgement
Terry (PS1V3) [1770] So.
[1771] So that was to say that we'd w
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1772] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1773] withdrawn D two point three.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1774] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1775] And now you've reused it somewhere else?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1776] And erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn
Terry (PS1V3) [1777] Withdrawn
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1778] this particular D two stroke three.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1779] So if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one D two stroke
Terry (PS1V3) [1780] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1781] three [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1782] Rather than two D one, right.
Terry (PS1V3) [1783] A a a and the, and the, and the D seven bit is, is in a different section?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1784] Is covered by part D two stroke one.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1785] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1786] Thank you Dennis.
[1787] You're a
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1788] good lad.
[1789] Right.
[1790] Could I just quickly look through here?
[1791] I, I did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that I should have picked out.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1792] There there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1793] by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization.
Terry (PS1V3) [1794] Is it?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1795] It's section one point five.
[1796] If you view files three to five.
[1797] The main message I would give is that
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1798] the Board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals. ...
Roger (PS1V4) [1799] Yeah.
[1800] The [...] scheme
Dennis (PS1V2) [1801] The Board's
Roger (PS1V4) [1802] did that didn't it?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1803] Yeah.
[1804] [reading] the Board considers the B R employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry
Roger (PS1V4) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1805] scheme [] .
Roger (PS1V4) [1806] We've seen all that.
Terry (PS1V3) [1807] But that, that's only a suggestion.
[1808] It's not been [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1809] Yes. [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1810] Yeah.
[1811] I mean wasn't this, wasn't this
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1812] Well.
[1813] They're not
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1814] one of these things where they
Dennis (PS1V2) [1815] Let's, let's pick out something positive.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1816] they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before? ...
Terry (PS1V3) [1817] Pardon?
Roger (PS1V4) [1818] That sounds a wonderful idea when does it
Terry (PS1V3) [1819] Who's what's her name?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1820] [...] .
Dennis (PS1V2) [1821] Pass.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1822] What do you call the secretary of state?
[1823] Freeman.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1824] McGregor?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1825] Oh.
[1826] Freeman.
[1827] Roger Freeman Secretary for
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1828] [...] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1829] No.
[1830] McGregor's Secretary of State.
[1831] Roger Freeman's Transport [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1832] Well.
[1833] Transport Minister then.
[1834] I, I
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1835] thought that the Board had complained and put forward some suggestions.
[1836] It said in the
Dennis (PS1V2) [1837] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1838] T S S A circular
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1839] Whereby
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [sneeze]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1840] Freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1841] It wasn't very helpful.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...] [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1842] And that was in your T S S A circular
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1843] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1844] about
Dennis (PS1V2) [1845] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1846] a fortnight
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1847] ago.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1848] I sus well, I, I found that quite interesting the bit on pensions.
[1849] Th
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1850] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1851] th the bit that I found most interesting was at least the Board are trying to look after our interests in that respect.
[1852] Er and I think it's, watch that space.
[1853] Isn't it?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1854] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1855] Does that seem reasonable? ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1856] Without wading through it all and things are moving on
Terry (PS1V3) [1857] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1858] fairly quickly. ...
Terry (PS1V3) [1859] There's
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1860] still nothing black and white.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1861] No.
Roger (PS1V4) [1862] Gripping stuff isn't it this?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1863] Yeah.
[1864] Right.
[1865] ... N Nothing more there?
[1866] If anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so.
Terry (PS1V3) [1867] Ken would like to read it.
Roger (PS1V4) [1868] Ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1869] Norman has a copy.
Roger (PS1V4) [1870] That's fine.
[1871] Well Nor Norman can brief them.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1872] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1873] If he thinks so.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1874] If you think so.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1875] May I?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1876] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1877] Erm and that's it.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1878] Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1879] Thank you very much.
Roger (PS1V4) [1880] No rule review?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1881] Rule review.
Terry (PS1V3) [1882] Have we finished
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1883] Rule review and team brief.
Terry (PS1V3) [1884] Shall I get?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1885] We've finished the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1886] [...] [...] rule review today at four.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1887] Can I, can I just ask one thing if we've finished
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1888] I'm [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1889] and any other business?
Dennis (PS1V2) [1890] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1891] Plan printing.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1892] We're again
Dennis (PS1V2) [1893] Plan printing
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1894] We're having problems with getting the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1895] drawings back from plan plinters
Terry (PS1V3) [1896] I'm astounded.
[1897] Are we
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1898] I think we, we complained to you and you complained
Terry (PS1V3) [1899] Er I
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1900] Did I, I, I, I've I've had
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1901] and
Terry (PS1V3) [1902] a letter back this week from him.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1903] Forty eight hour turnaround?
Terry (PS1V3) [1904] s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our
Dennis (PS1V2) [1905] Complimentary letters would you believe?
Terry (PS1V3) [1906] staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1907] Well.
[1908] It isn't.
[1909] I mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days.
[1910] And we're not getting them back, short
Terry (PS1V3) [1911] Anybody else?
[1912] Had those problems?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1913] It was just brought to my attention just before I came down.
Terry (PS1V3) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1914] When we want urgent work done we've really got to turn the screws tight.
Terry (PS1V3) [1915] It's hard work is it?
Roger (PS1V4) [1916] Yes.
[1917] It is.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1918] Yes.
[1919] It is.
Roger (PS1V4) [1920] There's no official mechanism to do it.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1921] Yeah.
[1922] It's er
Roger (PS1V4) [1923] You go down there on your hands and knees and you report it's not meet and then you [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1924] Yeah.
[1925] Is it?
[1926] I, I'm only
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1927] The er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1928] It's not a quality service Trevor.
Terry (PS1V3) [1929] It, he has erm diluted the erm quality of service a d erm the performance specification he, he undertook to provide me with
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1930] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [1931] over the phone, because he said he was gonna be a two hour urgent work
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1932] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [1933] a and er by telephone arrangement if you want it quicker than that.
[1934] And now it's suddenly two days
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1935] [...] yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [1936] but urgent by special arrangements.
Roger (PS1V4) [1937] That's that's, you, you don't have to
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1938] Do you work [...] [...] his own printer?
Terry (PS1V3) [1939] Er that doesn't surprise me.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1940] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1941] Well.
[1942] I mean [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1943] [...] Yeah.
[1944] But he's only buying his own
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1945] Ye
Terry (PS1V3) [1946] printer so that when he's hived off he's got some [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1947] Well.
[1948] We might wish to consider using him if you've got problems with
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1949] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1950] Plan Printing.
[1951] Let Offices Services Manager know that.
Terry (PS1V3) [1952] No.
[1953] Because we're paying
Roger (PS1V4) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1954] for the staff down there and the paper
Roger (PS1V4) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1955] and
Dennis (PS1V2) [1956] Well.
[1957] What the hell are we supposed to do?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1958] Well.
[1959] As ask him for a refund on that much we haven't received from
Dennis (PS1V2) [1960] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1961] them.
Terry (PS1V3) [1962] What I was gonna suggest, what I was gonna suggest was that anything that we
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [1963] didn't get
Dennis (PS1V2) [1964] I mean if we're not getting the service why
Terry (PS1V3) [1965] Anything that we didn't get to a timescale
Dennis (PS1V2) [1966] Don't we refuse to [...] ?
Terry (PS1V3) [1967] we should just go out to Prontaprint and invoice him for
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1968] B b
Terry (PS1V3) [1969] the
Roger (PS1V4) [1970] But what?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1971] A lot, plenty of firms out there'll do it you know.
[1972] We don't, we don't [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1973] What happened whilst you were on holiday after that first [...] few days off, the guy rang me up and said, hey some of your staff have been down er say saying we've got an urgent service that you can have in two hours.
Terry (PS1V3) [1974] That's right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [1975] And he said , Who told you that?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1976] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [1977] And I said, well, why we've just [...] agreed that with Jilly .
[1978] And he said
Terry (PS1V3) [1979] Certainly did.
Roger (PS1V4) [1980] he said, I'll fucking see about that.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [laugh]
Terry (PS1V3) [1981] [...] bet that's not in the Oxford Dictionary.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh] [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1982] L
Dennis (PS1V2) [1983] Ca can I
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1984] suggest
Roger (PS1V4) [1985] Can I rewind?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1986] that, that er that you respond to that letter from him Trevor and say
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Dennis (PS1V2) [1987] that the information that we have from our staff does not correspond
Terry (PS1V3) [1988] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [1989] with what he's put in there.
Terry (PS1V3) [1990] We w
Dennis (PS1V2) [1991] And that we now propose
Terry (PS1V3) [1992] We need a two hour se
Dennis (PS1V2) [1993] We need a two hour service.
[1994] If he can't provide it, then we intend to obtain prints from er an external source and get the invoices sent to him.
Terry (PS1V3) [1995] There's no point in telling him that, because he'll just refuse to pay them.
[1996] We will just, let's, let's threaten him that, that might be a course of action that we're gonna have to re we will have, we will have
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1997] [...] gonna upset the [...] staff [...] .
Terry (PS1V3) [1998] to er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [1999] We'll obtain prices from outside for the work.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2000] And don't accept the bill for two staff.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2001] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2002] Splendid.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2003] Well.
[2004] We can always stop
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2005] paying for the bloody machine that er
Dennis (PS1V2) [2006] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2007] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [2008] I mean we're paying
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2009] I mean
Terry (PS1V3) [2010] forty five percent
Dennis (PS1V2) [2011] There's no way we'll sit back and let him continue in this way.
[2012] So we've got to tell him what the options are.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2013] Somebody has suggested that we train some of our staff up to use their machine.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2014] And I think it came out of the print room.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2015] What a good idea.
Terry (PS1V3) [2016] No.
[2017] It's not a good idea.
[2018] There are all sorts of health and safety implications to messing about with erm erm
Dennis (PS1V2) [2019] Oh.
[2020] Well.
[2021] We'll get a core erm what do you call it?
[2022] Er assessment?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2023] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2024] And make sure that we provide our staff with the appropriate
Roger (PS1V4) [2025] Fresh air, fans
Terry (PS1V3) [2026] protection.
Roger (PS1V4) [2027] breathing masks.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2028] I don't see that as an [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2029] W w w what if [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2030] He's won then hasn't he?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2031] Yeah.
[2032] if he gets rid of his staff
Terry (PS1V3) [2033] He's got rid of two of his he's got rid of two of his staff and we've had to go in and fill that breach.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2034] Trevor, if we're in business on our own and we want prints
Roger (PS1V4) [2035] If we're in business in our own
Dennis (PS1V2) [2036] and we want prints we would decide on what the most economic way of getting them is.
Terry (PS1V3) [2037] We would. [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2038] Well.
[2039] Let us now start investigating that.
Roger (PS1V4) [2040] At the moment I'm happy with the service down there by the way.
[2041] There's only Alan so far says he's got a problem.
[2042] Anybody else got a problem?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2043] W w w we want to try and [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [2044] I think before we take any urgent action we ought to Alan ought to monitor the situation.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2045] Oh.
[2046] Well.
[2047] This is what we've been doing.
[2048] I mean wh what I've
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2049] After the last time we got a problem,
Roger (PS1V4) [2050] Cos we don't normally act.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2051] we, we've, we've had prints down in there excess of three days.
[2052] Now all I'm saying is that he undertook to give us those in forty eight hours.
Dennis (PS1V2) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2053] But all I'm asking is if there is an urgent work system, and if that urgent work system is being abused whereby everybody is putting down
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2054] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2055] urgent work,
Dennis (PS1V2) [2056] They shouldn't be doing.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2057] which is pushing back his normal service
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2058] Mm.
[2059] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2060] surely the urgent work procedure's gotta be pr reviewed as well.
Roger (PS1V4) [2061] It needs controlling.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2062] And it needs controlling.
[2063] Which either means that somebody at my level or an M S three level or somebody, has gotta sign for the urgent work.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2064] Yeah.
[2065] Where I'm [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2066] Because all it means is that anybody's signing it urgent
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2067] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2068] work , do me one now.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2069] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2070] Right.
Terry (PS1V3) [2071] I'll
Dennis (PS1V2) [2072] It needs sorting out.
Terry (PS1V3) [2073] I'll talk to [...] .
[2074] It it's very
Dennis (PS1V2) [2075] But where I'm puzzled a little bit by Terry, is about five minutes ago Terry said, people have got to go and beg and
Roger (PS1V4) [2076] They have a [...] urgent work
Dennis (PS1V2) [2077] get on their knees
Roger (PS1V4) [2078] scenario.
[2079] Yes.
Terry (PS1V3) [2080] Yes.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2081] And then he said he was satisfied with the service.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2082] The normal work.
Roger (PS1V4) [2083] The normal work service.
[2084] Yes. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2085] It's the ur er Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2086] Right.
Roger (PS1V4) [2087] It's the urgent ones
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2088] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [2089] that cause the problem.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2090] But i it depends Terry with everybody's going down on the urgent work ones which is putting the normal service
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2091] back isn't it?
Roger (PS1V4) [2092] Well.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2093] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [2094] I haven't suffered on the normal service so far.
[2095] The [...] service is always difficult, like Roger said.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2096] Mm.
Roger (PS1V4) [2097] Or somebody said.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2098] Can we put a handle on this?
[2099] Can we
Terry (PS1V3) [2100] Erm I'm in correspondence with him.
[2101] I'm, I'm talking to him about the planned s filing system as well, which is
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2102] Well.
[2103] That's more than some people
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2104] What, what filing system?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2105] would print
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2106] That is
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2107] of course.
Terry (PS1V3) [2108] But, but that is a function of this York Accommodation
Dennis (PS1V2) [2109] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [2110] Consortium which is
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2111] I mean [...] standard drawings out of there.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2112] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2113] What is the York Accommodation
Dennis (PS1V2) [2114] So in terms of action
Terry (PS1V3) [2115] Oh it's some, some
Roger (PS1V4) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2116] some high whizzing w one top guy from each erm business, get together and talk about Hudson House West Office's erm main H Q.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2117] Who represents us?
Terry (PS1V3) [2118] Some guy from er ... S and T I think
Dennis (PS1V2) [2119] No hoping they represent us.
Terry (PS1V3) [2120] cos they're part of the business unit.
[2121] ... So I said I didn't want to deal through somebody who wasn't really gonna be fighting in our corner, and I'd rather put a paper to their committee an and tell them where the problems were, and ask how they were gonna get round them.
[2122] They've got problems with erm staffing because they got rid of all their staff
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2123] Well.
[2124] Yeah. [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2125] But now now they've realized that they need more than one receptionist to cover the early hours and later hours.
[2126] But what they were thinking of doing is taking on another person who could file plans away in the plan room once the, once sort of the midmorning rush of visitors had been cleared in, in Hudson House reception.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2127] But that sounds about as positive as his suggestion that he would train up
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Terry (PS1V3) [2128] er the reprographic staff to cover peaks in er sorry the troughs in, in the staffing in the plan printing.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2129] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [2130] I it sounds very well in principle, but in practice I haven't, doubt very much whether or not we will avoid having a, a dint in, in the service that we need.
[2131] But the plan, the ownership of the plan print room, and the way that the plans are not stored safely and they're not treated like proper documents, just amazes me when you compare it with some of the plan rooms in, in
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2132] Astounding [...] .
Terry (PS1V3) [2133] B R.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2134] What you want to do is ring up the Sunday Times and get a reporter round and he'll get a scandal story and they'll do something
Terry (PS1V3) [2135] Yes.
[2136] All we could suggest
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [laughing] [...] [] [laugh]
Terry (PS1V3) [2137] all we could suggest that they did w w
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2138] [...] sabotage in certain cases.
[2139] Well
Terry (PS1V3) [2140] was
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2141] not sabotage but [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2142] tootle in and find the security fencing drawings an and the underground ducts at the York Signal Box in the plan room and wouldn't they have a
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2143] a little wow?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2144] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2145] Right.
[2146] What is our proposed action?
Terry (PS1V3) [2147] It will all be in there.
[2148] ... Well.
[2149] I will, I am writing to
Dennis (PS1V2) [2150] To say that
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2151] Y A C
Dennis (PS1V2) [2152] we we're still having some problems?
Terry (PS1V3) [2153] an a and saying that we are
Dennis (PS1V2) [2154] Good.
Terry (PS1V3) [2155] far from happy with the plan print room with the er er o o o and suggest that the businesses ought to be concerned about the way that their records are stored in their plan room.
[2156] And that er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2157] I would erm suggest that they go at Swindon to see how it's done.
Terry (PS1V3) [2158] Well.
[2159] I would suggest that we use this as a lead in to say, Isn't it time you paid to microfilm all the old drawings?
[2160] Can we be of any assistance?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2161] The
Dennis (PS1V2) [2162] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2163] Well.
[2164] Another, this is, two things they've got [...] enabled Swindon to get where they were.
[2165] One was a sort of leak to the Sunday Times [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2166] But we're not gonna go down that path.
[2167] Right.
[2168] Next?
Roger (PS1V4) [2169] Yeah but I imagine.
[2170] Not Sunday Times.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2171] Can't I finish?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2172] Well.
[2173] Go on.
[2174] Ye yeah.
[2175] Go on.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2176] And the second w was the criticism they got at Glenrig.
[2177] They got you know quite a bit of stick for not being able to produce drawings that they said they had.
[2178] You know, they said they'd got drawings and then, well, where are they?
[2179] They couldn't produce them.
[2180] And they got some stick for that.
[2181] But those two things together were what enabled them to get their plan room into what it is now.
[2182] An absolute work of art.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2183] Good.
Terry (PS1V3) [2184] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2185] Right.
[2186] What we've gotta decide is what we want for the, the C E D G I thing.
Terry (PS1V3) [2187] Well.
[2188] I mean I was meaning I [...] want to, to get your standard drawings out of there.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2189] Jim knows what he wants and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2190] gonna take our standard drawings out
Dennis (PS1V2) [2191] [...] what he wants to do.
[2192] I'm fully supportive of the P Way office getting the standard drawings there.
[2193] Er and I think Roger what you and Terry have to decide is what you want of your parts of the organization.
[2194] And then we can organize
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2195] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2196] ourselves.
Roger (PS1V4) [2197] The problem is a lot of the drawings down there are [...] historical drawings
Dennis (PS1V2) [2198] Yeah.
[2199] Which we don't need.
Roger (PS1V4) [2200] Which are storing information which we don't need now but it
Dennis (PS1V2) [2201] That's s
Roger (PS1V4) [2202] would grate to
Terry (PS1V3) [2203] Well.
[2204] D d it, it
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2205] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [2206] It's the cost effect of not having that information, that's going be a cost on the client if he comes and wants to
Dennis (PS1V2) [2207] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2208] do something to those
Roger (PS1V4) [2209] Yeah.
[2210] But it would be anyway.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2211] Of course he will.
[2212] It's not a cost effect on us.
Roger (PS1V4) [2213] Well.
[2214] We shouldn't be picking up the tab.
Terry (PS1V3) [2215] No.
[2216] No.
[2217] No.
[2218] I, far from it but I think here we should be encouraging him or, or highlighting the, the problem that he's got that he ought to be looking at.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2219] What what we should be doing is make s making sure that we have er the negatives of all those drawings that we've produced over the last ten or fifteen years, that we may need to use again.
Roger (PS1V4) [2220] Mm.
[2221] But ye but yeah.
[2222] That does need staff to search through them
Dennis (PS1V2) [2223] It does.
[2224] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2225] It also needs somewhere to store them.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2226] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2227] Yeah.
[2228] Well.
[2229] We've got that now.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2230] But you've got a plan room down there.
[2231] Which until recently functioned quite well.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2232] Yeah but it doesn't any longer and I can't er quite honestly in, in the climate that's er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2233] Rail Track.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2234] Th th that is that is e existing
Terry (PS1V3) [2235] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2236] now.
[2237] Hopefully Rail Track will take it on board.
[2238] I mean that's the way it should go Rog.
Roger (PS1V4) [2239] Well.
[2240] Infrastructure's theirs isn't it?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2241] Erm but I think we have a duty to our organization to determine what we want to do.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2242] [...] management buy-out, do you regret not having [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2243] Certainly.
[2244] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2245] So.
[2246] We really
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2247] [...] short-sighted to see [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2248] But they wouldn't allow us to have
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2249] belong to them. [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2250] Yes.
[2251] They are.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2252] Well.
[2253] They ma they maybe do belong to them but bloody hell they [...] the information on it.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2254] Mm.
Terry (PS1V3) [2255] Yes.
[2256] I think that
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2257] Right.
Roger (PS1V4) [2258] We'd have copyright on them wouldn't we
Terry (PS1V3) [2259] We
Dennis (PS1V2) [2260] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2261] we should encourage them to microfilm them and then we should then encourage them to give us a a, a
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2262] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2263] What?
Terry (PS1V3) [2264] set of
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2265] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2266] Do you know that Trainload Freight went through
Dennis (PS1V2) [2267] I in the absence
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2268] that print room and removing drawings of their depots
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2269] Is it?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2270] We've got [...] is it worth considering [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2271] And there's not a blind thing you can do to stop them taking
Dennis (PS1V2) [2272] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2273] To them on their own terms?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2274] them out of there now.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2275] I, I
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2276] well.
[2277] I wou I would pre
Terry (PS1V3) [2278] Of course they are.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2279] [...] to the er the [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2280] But you're losing
Roger (PS1V4) [2281] Who's got copyright? [...] ?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2282] a valuable s
Dennis (PS1V2) [2283] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2284] source of information for any future projects.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2285] My, my honest [...] is we should get, we
Terry (PS1V3) [2286] The British Railways Board has copyright.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2287] should get the photo the er microfilming facility.
[2288] [...] Jim's gonna do this and I, I think Jim's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2289] Jim's
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2290] exercise will be a good [...] for us.
[2291] And if we find it's a, it's, it's er an effective system I think we should then do it for bridges
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2292] Mm.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2293] and works [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2294] Although the cost
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2295] And P Way.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2296] It was fairly it was fairly cheap when I looked into it
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2297] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2298] with P B D.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2299] Forty five, forty five pence?
Roger (PS1V4) [2300] About five years ago.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2301] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2302] I mean it, it's [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2303] Not only that it's they come and collect them take them away
Dennis (PS1V2) [2304] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2305] and bring them back isn't it?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2306] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2307] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2308] All-in price?
[2309] What a hundred and sixty quid for five hundred drawings?
Terry (PS1V3) [2310] Is that for
Dennis (PS1V2) [2311] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2312] A one or A nought or
Dennis (PS1V2) [2313] [...] .
[2314] So.
[2315] I mean
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2316] regardless of what they want to do, the rest of the organization, I think that we as an organization should do something like that.
[2317] With a view to er recording all the drawings that we've produced over the last fifteen years.
Terry (PS1V3) [2318] It would take quite a, an exercise to actually find them and
Roger (PS1V4) [2319] Well.
[2320] That's the w
Dennis (PS1V2) [2321] Yeah.
Roger (PS1V4) [2322] would be.
[2323] Not the microfilming I think that's a good idea.
[2324] It's, it's finding out which ones are really any good.
Terry (PS1V3) [2325] Because they're not stored in, in
Roger (PS1V4) [2326] Yes. [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2327] a drawing number sequence.
[2328] So.
[2329] I
Roger (PS1V4) [2330] No.
Terry (PS1V3) [2331] suppose we could find them easy enough if they were.
[2332] They're actually stored in bloody line reference and
Dennis (PS1V2) [2333] Are they really?
Terry (PS1V3) [2334] bridge number and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2335] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2336] What are?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2337] I thought the bridge ones were in
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Terry (PS1V3) [2338] No they're rolled up in
Dennis (PS1V2) [2339] The Y V er
Terry (PS1V3) [2340] pigeonholes and things.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2341] All we'd of done was taken [...] pigeonholes and go to them and say don't want
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2342] that.
[2343] Don't want that.
[2344] Want that.
[2345] Want that.
[2346] Want that.
[2347] Record the number.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2348] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2349] Bundle them up [...] them off send them off and the rest [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2350] I mean a lot a lot of the plans in the plan rooms
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2351] were actually rationalized by
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2352] Joe and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2353] Joe and er
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2354] Joe and
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2355] Bernard
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2356] Fortunate them.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2357] About three or four
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2358] years ago.
[2359] So.
[2360] Most of the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2361] rubbish should have gone and it was only the
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2362] Do you honestly think that they did all?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2363] No. [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2364] They did they did an awful lot of it.
[2365] Yes.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2366] I thought they just pratted about
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2367] And scratched the surface.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2368] No.
[2369] They, they, they
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2370] they made a considerable impact certainly on the earlier years' ones.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...] [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2371] But there's bags of drawings over [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2372] Yes.
[2373] Fine.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2374] [...] Petree.
[2375] And some bridge drawings among them.
[2376] And nobody quite knows what's there.
[2377] They never got to sorting those out.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2378] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2379] Who's Petree?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2380] The [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2381] Yeah.
[2382] But they're ancient
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2383] ones.
[2384] As far as I'm concerned they belong to er Rail Track or, or the businesses.
[2385] What I'm concerned about is those drawings that we've produced with our resources over the last fifteen years.
Terry (PS1V3) [2386] What since n say beginning of Selby?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2387] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2388] Go back to there.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2389] Yeah.
[2390] About nineteen eighty.
Terry (PS1V3) [2391] Cos before before that Rog the, the codes were changed anyway weren't they?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2392] Yeah.
[2393] About nineteen eighty.
Terry (PS1V3) [2394] If we went back to nineteen seventy eight, we'd pick up all the Selby drawings wouldn't we?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2395] Yes.
Terry (PS1V3) [2396] And
Dennis (PS1V2) [2397] And all your s current standards.
Terry (PS1V3) [2398] a and, yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2399] I, I would have thought that would be good enough for us. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2400] Well.
[2401] S .
[2402] Well.
[2403] Shall we, what, what are we talking then?
[2404] Are we talking about microfilming them or duplicate negativing them? ...
Dennis (PS1V2) [2405] I would microfilm them.
[2406] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2407] [...] it might turn out to be cheaper [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2408] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2409] [...] number of drawings we're dealing with.
[2410] But we could get somebody who knows something about to come and advise.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2411] Mm.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2412] Certainly sounds as if P Way wouldn't want anything
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2413] Get, why not get
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2414] before about after nineteen seventy.
[2415] Or before nineteen seventy.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2416] [...] the plan room [...] to come and advise? ...
Terry (PS1V3) [2417] On microfilming or on, or on w
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2418] [...] well.
[2419] On, on microfilming, versus duplicate negatives, versus what else they've got.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2420] [...] but I've been down there?
[2421] We'd need a report order.
Terry (PS1V3) [2422] Yeah.
[2423] If Jim's gonna, if Jim's gonna micro
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2424] [...] all the information on it [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2425] If Jim's gonna microfilm his stuff, then I think we should microfilm the civils drawings produced since
Dennis (PS1V2) [2426] Nineteen seventy eight.
Terry (PS1V3) [2427] s b since since
Dennis (PS1V2) [2428] Well.
[2429] Nineteen eighty.
Terry (PS1V3) [2430] Well.
[2431] I think we should make sure we sweep up the Selby drawings because they do include some fairly good stuff.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2432] [...] more costly [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2433] I, I realize that.
[2434] So.
[2435] Another case of finding the bloody things.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2436] We'd want to go back a bit before that.
[2437] It's basically since you've got onto your er your vertical S and C, which goes back to about nineteen seventy.
Terry (PS1V3) [2438] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2439] And may just [...]
Terry (PS1V3) [2440] Not that long [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2441] [...] make the decision here because I think
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2442] I think actually somebody needs to sit down and think
Roger (PS1V4) [2443] Yeah.
[2444] There's [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2445] think
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2446] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2447] what, what they do want.
Roger (PS1V4) [2448] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2449] Because it may be that you th you, you look back and say, Christ, we've been using those standards since nineteen seventy.
Roger (PS1V4) [2450] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2451] So it may be that your standard drawings, you say, oh, goodness me.
[2452] Let's just have the standard drawings
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2453] Yeah.
[2454] No.
[2455] We, we normally use those
Dennis (PS1V2) [2456] and be unaware you may not be interested in them.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2457] [...] for er for scheming and any alterations.
[2458] As a as a
Dennis (PS1V2) [2459] Right.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2460] as a quick means of doing [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2461] A anyway we can [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2462] The action is each function head
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2463] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2464] is really needs to think about how far back w we should go
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2465] Yeah.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2466] er with a view to us erm considering
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2467] Oops
Dennis (PS1V2) [2468] whether we should erm microfilm drawings for each function.
Terry (PS1V3) [2469] Cos we've got
Dennis (PS1V2) [2470] And I think we should erm
Terry (PS1V3) [2471] we've got records of all the drawings haven't we Rog?
[2472] That you know our drawing number books once when it's been issued.
[2473] Presumably Terry's got the same.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2474] Yeah.
[2475] We have upstairs.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2476] Yeah.
[2477] So we can quickly
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2478] scan what we need and then budget for
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2479] microfilming them, oh within the next two years.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2480] How much do we p pay incidentally for the print room facility?
Terry (PS1V3) [2481] For the print room?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2482] Er the plan room.
[2483] Sorry.
Terry (PS1V3) [2484] Nothing.
[2485] Because it's not our plan room.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2486] No.
[2487] But we
Terry (PS1V3) [2488] They're not our drawings.
[2489] So.
[2490] They, they belong to the client.
[2491] The person who owns the asset.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2492] Well.
[2493] Somebody must be footing the bill.
Terry (PS1V3) [2494] Yes.
[2495] E E E East Coast Regional Railways and presumably Freight at one time.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2496] So.
[2497] We don't contribute to it?
Terry (PS1V3) [2498] No.
[2499] ... It's a bloody massive er [...] that I would
Dennis (PS1V2) [2500] Right.
[2501] ... Good.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2502] Any other business?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2503] No.
Roger (PS1V4) [2504] Finished?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2505] Good.
[2506] Thank you.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2507] Rule review.
Terry (PS1V3) [2508] I'm not doing that
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2509] Ah.
[2510] Please can we leave it.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2511] No.
[2512] I mean
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2513] I can't get my team brief done before everybody goes home now then.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2514] What?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2515] Right.
[2516] Right.
[2517] [...] I'll be brief
Dennis (PS1V2) [2518] A a to be fair Steve Steve has been on standby hasn't he?
[2519] To rule review us
Terry (PS1V3) [2520] Yes.
[2521] You're lucky to get Steve I mean
Dennis (PS1V2) [2522] Yeah.
Terry (PS1V3) [2523] he's only here one day a week.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2524] Er eh?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2525] Well it means I won't be able
Dennis (PS1V2) [2526] What time's your t what time's your team brief?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2527] When?
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2528] Half past three.
[2529] Four o'clock it maybe could be.
[2530] But people go home early on Friday.
Roger (PS1V4) [2531] Friday they do. ...
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2532] Why can't it wait?
Dennis (PS1V2) [2533] There's no reason why it shouldn't.
[2534] Am I out does everybody else want to wait?
Roger (PS1V4) [2535] Yeah.
[2536] I could wait.
[2537] It's been a long day.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2538] It's not a subject that fascinates me.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2539] Right.
Roger (PS1V4) [2540] It's been a long day.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2541] Right.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2542] We'll do it next week some time.
[2543] Alright Trev?
Terry (PS1V3) [2544] No problem for me boss.
[2545] I was rule reviewed by John .
Dennis (PS1V2) [2546] Oh.
[2547] You can do us.
Terry (PS1V3) [2548] Oh.
[2549] No.
[2550] I [...] talking back myself.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2551] Would you, would you apologize to Steve on our behalf?
Terry (PS1V3) [2552] I will.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Roger (PS1V4) [2553] He followed me over the [...] .
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2554] Has Steve gotta do all staff?
Terry (PS1V3) [2555] No.
Dennis (PS1V2) [2556] No.
[2557] He was gonna do us and then we [...] we, we
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2558] Cascade it down.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2559] Cascade it down.
Unknown speaker (FULPSUNK) [2560] [...] I thought we'd agreed that it would be much better if we [...]
Dennis (PS1V2) [2561] Right.
[2562] Thank you gentl