| PS22A | X | f | (Joyce, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS22B | X | m | (No name, age unknown, retired) unspecified |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[1] You were saying that th the, the trainers pay for all these horse walks and maintain them? |
| (PS22B) |
[2] Your |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[3] Erm ... What do they |
| (PS22B) |
[4] heath fees, there's heath fees, and there's all, all you have to pay for the heath fees and all, you know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[5] Hmm |
| (PS22B) |
[6] Oh, yes. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[7] Was that for training? |
| (PS22B) |
[8] Yeah. [9] Training was very very dear today, I dunno what it is now ... it was very very dear ... to train 'em. [10] To own an animal you wanna be a millionaire you see. [11] Well, you want a lot of money, don't ya? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[12] To do it well. |
| (PS22B) |
[13] Well, you know what it is buying one yourself. [14] You gotta feed it properly [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[15] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[16] Cost you a fortune, wouldn't it? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[17] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[18] Th th then, there the field, if you got a field to turn it out in, provide hay ever day, buy tons of hay for it, that's alright. [19] You don't want it to have a lot of corn. [20] You only want [...] corn when you're working them. [21] When you're hunting them and doing things like that. [22] But hay [...] suits any animal. [23] But you [...] that you can. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[24] Mm. [25] Going back to the war time, the Second World War, you said that racing wasn't considered to be an agricultural industry. [26] Breeding of horses was, |
| (PS22B) |
[27] Yeah |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[28] but not racing. [29] So what, how did the racing industry get on during the war. [30] How did they manage? |
| (PS22B) |
[31] Well, they had to, they only raced at Newmarket. [32] All through the war, they raced at Newmarket see fetched it all to one meeting, so that they didn't have to travel about. [33] See, the animal didn't have to travel about so and most of the trainers come here, you see. [34] Oh it was very good in the war time, cos there was only [...] just I can't tell you now. [35] I could tell you offhand, if I'd known how, where the race was or [...] there's not many places. [36] [...] but all, all my races was run at Newmarket. [37] Some was run somewhere else, but I couldn't tell you where now, not offhand. [38] But all the races was run at Newmarket or Newmarket Heath. [39] All everything. [40] That were all, all cos of the war, see? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[41] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[42] And, all run here, everything was run here, and animals, animals that won here, well er well I think they put them down as better animals than animals that raced before the war, you know, cos they had to do such a lot in a short time. [43] You see, because all the Air Force had all the heath, they didn't have a lot of heath to train horses on, you know, then. [44] You only had little bits, they claimed [...] Waterhall for, for farming. [45] We had to had to plough that up, and put and put er feed in it. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[46] Where was this? |
| (PS22B) |
[47] Oh what we call Waterhall. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[48] Waterhall? |
| (PS22B) |
[49] Yeah, where you come down that hill from the boy's grave. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[50] Yes. |
| (PS22B) |
[51] Well, on your right that's all, that's all Waterhall down there. [52] That's all training round in there. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[53] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[54] See? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[55] That's on the, mm, that's on the Kentford Road from Bury coming in, isn't it? |
| (PS22B) |
[56] Yes yeah. [57] Then when you get down into Well Bottom. [58] You see a house on your left, don't you, pass the house on your left, well all on the right is a what they call the Limekilns. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[59] Yes. |
| (PS22B) |
[60] See? [...] there the Limekilns are on [...] Well Bottom to the top of the Down. [61] Till you get traffic lights. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[62] Yes. |
| (PS22B) |
[63] All laid out special, you know for training. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[64] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[65] Galloping ground. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[66] During the war you had to grow food on it, you said. |
| (PS22B) |
[67] What? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[68] During the war you had to grow food on it, you said to me. |
| (PS22B) |
[69] Food. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[70] You had to grow food ... |
| (PS22B) |
[71] Yes. ... |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[72] during the war, |
| (PS22B) |
[73] Yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[74] you had to grow food on those ... areas, |
| (PS22B) |
[75] Yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[76] where you said. [77] You weren't allowed to use them. |
| (PS22B) |
[78] Oh no ... you weren't allowed er [...] only the Limekilns we was allowed to use. [79] Oh yes [...] they'd be erm, tt agriculture. [80] They'd ere pinch 'em, you see. [81] They'd have to give so much away. [82] Same as the south fields they pinched all a lot of that. [83] We had to grow potatoes and saffron everything, you know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[84] And these were usually on the training grounds |
| (PS22B) |
[85] Otherwise they'd have built on it or summat like that you see. [86] That's why we have to do it. [87] But it's all, all back again in its own place now. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[88] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[89] See, but th th the south fields, what was, was a good training ground for all of us. [90] Two mile round, there was er the Air Force was on it, you see, the Ninety Ninth Squadron was, was down here see, all, all the war, all them, all that ground was under, under, all undermined with big petrol tanks. [91] Oh yes, all down there that's where they bombed when the war was on and when they killed the people in the town. [92] ... Oh yes. [93] Th this was a great place, this was, very, very, very dangerous. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[94] Was there a lot of people killed with the bomb? |
| (PS22B) |
[95] One, two, four I, four I think ... four I think was killed tt |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[96] Whereabouts did it fall? |
| (PS22B) |
[97] Outside the picture place. [98] Outside the er Odeon what you'd call it, [...] you know where outside there it fell. [99] Killed the girl in the Post Office, I know. [100] Post Office is this side of the road in them days. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[101] What, on the opposite of what it is now? |
| (PS22B) |
[102] [...] two, two and three in the town were killed. [103] Market day it was, you know, oh yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[104] It was during the day? |
| (PS22B) |
[105] Yeah, I was down the paddocks, I was, I was. [106] I was down the paddock. [107] Before, I couldn't get down the High Street for bricks and [...] houses, but [laughing] they're not there now. [108] I couldn't get out quick enough [] . [109] I didn't know where it was. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[110] How did the war affect yo your training of the horses? |
| (PS22B) |
[111] Oh, it didn't interfere didn't interfere with th didn't interfere, the only thing about it, you had to do everything in daylight, there were no lights allowed at nights, you know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[112] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[113] You didn't have none of this. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[114] No electric lights. [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[115] You had to do everything in daylight. [116] You know very, that was, that was about the hardest part about it, cos no sooner you were done, you had to start again you understand? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[117] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[118] Cos you had to get, do it with lights, and every window was blacked over, oh terrible. [119] Terrible to work in it. [120] But er, we, we got through it all, didn't we? [121] We got through it. [122] But that's, that's what happened. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[123] Did the horses do as well? |
| (PS22B) |
[124] Yeah, oh yeah. [125] They didn't worry about them, they ... carried on just the same. [126] [...] you done everything exactly the same, only you didn't have the ... time to do it in. [127] You [...] woke up about an hour, you know the nights are shorter [...] . [128] Well, you see ... you finish in the morning about half past, half past twelve we used to, cos no sooner you get your dinner and had a drink, you had to be back again two o'clock or half past two to start on 'em again, you see, |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[129] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[130] which, so that you got the stables shut up before it got dark at four o'clock, ain't it [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[131] Mm in the winter time mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[132] see, for the lights ... so you weren't allowed to put the lights on you see for the bombers. [133] Show the Germans coming over, you know [...] see 'em now you didn't have no street lights, did you. [134] You didn't have no street lights. [135] No. [136] All treated all the same, you see. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[137] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[138] Ah ah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[139] Did racing continue the same during the war? |
| (PS22B) |
[140] Racing? [141] Oh yeah, we raced just the same even though we had to do it early, so that some of them leave, and we started at sometimes half past eleven. [142] Finished at half past two, you see, [...] you know, shortened it up like that. [143] Oh yes, they, they got, they got through everything alright pretty good. [144] They're very good, very good indeed. [145] Marvellous how it was run to tell you the truth. [146] Oh, yes those horses come in horse boxes them days bit of luck instead of trains. [147] They got them here, you see for the races. [148] They used to come a day or two beforehand, you see, so they could be settled down and then race. [149] Oh yes, everything was, it was very well run, it was manoeuvred very very cutely it was. [150] Very, very cutely. [151] But, of course you didn't, you didn't have the time to do a lot in ... the muddy light beat you. [152] But you see you had to do as good as the same amount now, you know. [153] You only got the same amount of money ... [laughing] end of the week. [154] You didn't get no more [] . [155] No it wasn't easy. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[156] Talking of rac the racing itself. [157] Have the racecourses always been as they are today? [158] Or, or were they different in your childhood? |
| (PS22B) |
[159] No, always the same. [160] Just the same as they are today. [161] You know there were no difference in them only ... er as they go along now they're putting plastic rails up instead of being wooden, you see 'em there. [162] See so many accidents happen, you see they're putting plastic up now. [163] Then when we're bump against it would just bends over, you see. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[164] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[165] Oh yeah, that's the only difference [...] they be doing every racecourse like that. [166] And you'll find in time th the racecourse'll be made of this here special stuff what they're galloping on. [167] On the heath a special stuff they gallop on, you know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[168] Oh, the all-weather ... |
| (PS22B) |
[169] Yeah, the all-weather |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[170] gallops? |
| (PS22B) |
[171] yeah,wh what we call the all-weather gallop. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[172] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[173] Well, some of the racecourse gonna be made like that and it cost a fortune, mind ya. [174] I suppose Newmarket will be first one to make two,th they've got two courses here as it is you see. [175] They'll do one, experience on it you see. [176] See how it goes and make it all, all the one meeting that have July course, like we was all through the winter. [177] All through the war, with July course you know you see. [178] You didn't have no racing on the first course. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[179] Which is the first course? |
| (PS22B) |
[180] [...] the first one. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[181] Mm |
| (PS22B) |
[182] As you go er the bottom one. [183] [cough] Then there's one half way up up the Cambridge Road ain't there? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[184] What one's that? |
| (PS22B) |
[185] July Course they call i they call that. [186] See, there's two racecourses in Newmarket. |
| Joyce (PS22A) | [...] |
| (PS22B) |
[187] There's none in Newmarket, really. [188] There's a ... there's erm ... let me see one, two, three, there used to be one, two, four meetings in Burrough Wood and two in Stetchworth. [189] See, the July Course comes under Stetchworth |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[190] Yes |
| (PS22B) |
[191] see, and n the first course comes under Burrou Burrou Burrough Wood you call it. [192] See. [193] That's how they're so rich. [194] There's footmark, footpaths all over the heath you know, where people can walk, and they keep sticking sticks in the heath now, but they knock 'em down. [195] They can't stop 'em. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[196] They stick ... |
| (PS22B) |
[197] Well bits of sticks in |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[198] sticks in? |
| (PS22B) |
[199] you know, so they don't make paths for horses who jump over. [200] See, you can't stop the people walking on cos th th th it's a law, you see. [201] There's a byelaw all paths you see. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[202] So who puts the sticks in the ground? |
| (PS22B) |
[203] The heath men. [204] They do. [205] You know, trying stop you from walking on the |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[206] Ah |
| (PS22B) |
[207] walking in the path. [208] But you pull them out chuck 'em aside you see people do. [209] Th they don't take no notice of it. [210] See there was a case a little while ago weren't there, about farmer ploughed up a p footpath [...] you used to get on a stile to walk across the field. [211] Then you used to get some they're all byelaws, weren't there. [212] Ah, in the end they fined him a lot of money, and they had him ... can't stop the public, you can't do that you can't. [213] No |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[214] So people walk over the racecourse, do they? |
| (PS22B) |
[215] Ah yeah, you can't stop people, [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[216] The July Course? |
| (PS22B) |
[217] The July Course, you see. [218] That was attached to for the July Course [...] the Jockey Club runs a long way right near round on to the Swaffham Road, yeah see runs right up, right up to the Swaffham Road, you see. [219] And all in there, there's Edginton House. [220] You could go to all ... where the King, King Teddy owns you know. [221] Edginton House. [222] MacDonald's bought it or somebody after MacDonald's. [223] That one's got, bought now. [224] It's all different now, and years ago was King and on the side of the roads was special gallops for the marsh trained for King, King Teddy. [225] There was always |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[226] King Edward |
| (PS22B) |
[227] special ground for 'em, you know, everything. [228] Oh, you could see [...] Newmarket [...] once they're stabled from Edginton House. [229] From Edginton House to Lordship. [230] They were all studs, big studs, with Edginton House was in, belonged to royalty. [231] See there's down on the ground now cos somebody called Mr bought it now, I think. [232] I, I can't tell you much about it. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[233] What royalty did it belong to? |
| (PS22B) |
[234] What? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[235] Which royalty did it belong to? |
| (PS22B) |
[236] King, King,K King Edward the Seventh. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[237] Edward the Seventh? |
| (PS22B) |
[238] Yeah, the seven, and em er diamond jubilee or summat like that. [239] Oh yes. [240] Ther was er er [...] private trainer to the King. [241] Dick was. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[242] And they had part of the July Course? |
| (PS22B) |
[243] [...] . [244] If you were going to [...] you were going to [...] or Cheltenham [...] Cheltenham. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[245] Norfolk way. |
| (PS22B) |
[246] Er er what you go into Sandringham, tt on that back road from where you live, on that back road, going the back road. [247] You'll see t the [...] big w on the stone [...] what they call Sandringham Stud. [248] Blooming great fine statue of p [...] and then you went down to the road where the Wolferton. [249] That's another stud of his all along the estate. [250] T beautiful place all rhododendron, you know, big bush rhododendrons. [251] All you see over there, you never saw only them with, only them golden pheasants, that's all I saw. |
| Joyce (PS22A) | [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[252] You seen them, have ya? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[253] Yeah. |
| (PS22B) |
[254] Beautiful, ain't they? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[255] Mm. [256] Lovely. |
| (PS22B) |
[257] Yeah beautiful, I would like to get one of them. [258] There was hundreds when we used to go there, yeah, never see oth never see any other colour. [259] That's all I saw. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[260] Just the golden. [261] Did the studs round Newmarket used to keep ... erm |
| (PS22B) |
[262] What? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[263] did the studs round Newmarket used to keep fancy birds? |
| (PS22B) |
[264] Always. [265] All studs did didn't they? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[266] Don't know. [267] Do they used |
| (PS22B) | [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[268] to keep decorative things about? |
| (PS22B) |
[269] Ooh, yes. [270] Plenty ... there's s s stud what the [...] just bought. [271] Making a fortune ain't he? [272] He went into [...] ooh, Down Hall, ooh beautiful place. [273] Then the other one just bought er all this Wooddidden and er Dersley. [274] The other one just bought that, and somebody else has just bought Manor, Manor Stud and Banston, Benton Manor. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[275] Were all these studs about before the First Wor before the Second World War? |
| (PS22B) |
[276] Yeah and the First World War. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[277] So they've been here a long long while. |
| (PS22B) |
[278] Yeah, they've been here years. [279] Been here years. [280] All jockey big-heads on the Jockey Club, you know first started them off like, you know? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[281] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[282] Benson along the Ashley Road. [283] Dougie the bookmaker used to own that. [284] That belongs to a man called now ... he owned ... he owned North ... now what does he own now? [285] He owns Indian [...] I believe that'd r runs tomorrow. [286] , he he owns them big stud, Beech House Stud, that's a all along Ashley reach right down here to your, to, to Upend, you know land [...] . [287] That was a Stetchworth, Lord Elliesmere, phworgh, horse studs. [288] All wealthy people. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[289] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[290] [...] that's what I said. [291] houses in them days, if you worked on a p work on a place, you had to live on a place, you see, if you got the sack you had to get out of 'em. [292] Nowhere for you to go, was there? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[293] Is it |
| (PS22B) |
[294] Today they can't do it. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[295] Mm. [296] If you'd got the sack |
| (PS22B) |
[297] What? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[298] [shouting] if you got the sack [] |
| (PS22B) |
[299] Yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[300] would you have found it difficult to have got work at another stables? |
| (PS22B) |
[301] Oh, no. [302] You wouldn't find it difficult. [303] You wouldn't find it difficult. [304] Very seldom you heard of 'em getting the sack. [305] Very seldom. [306] Same as stud grooms, you never heard much stud grooms getting the sack. [307] Or head man. [308] See, you th you, you got so controlled, you knew the runs of the horses, you knew the ways of your horses, you knew the ways of your guvnor and, you change, you got to start a role all over again. [309] You see what I mean it. [310] That's why they don't sack people like that. [311] You keep er and blacksmiths, that's why they own their own blacksmiths. [312] Well, you see, if you keep changing the blacksmiths about and they're altering horses feet all the time, putting plates on, putting shoes on, you see ... it's a game of its own. [313] It's one, one consistent game of its own. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[314] So, a blacksmith, then will |
| (PS22B) |
[315] Ah, they they all had their own blacksmith. [316] You got one |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[317] You got one |
| (PS22B) |
[318] one blacksmith does that yard, they l or two, two do the yards now, cos there's a lot of [...] . [319] Then two do them between them. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[320] And the blacksmith, is he an independent person? |
| (PS22B) |
[321] Oh ... yes. [322] The guvnor is. [323] Well he can't interfere with him. [324] All you do is you put on the list all will want shoeing. [325] Or come and send for him,h he what has to be in the yard, the blacksmith has to look thirty to forty horses [...] their blacksmith has to look round every one of them. [326] He has about sixty here. [327] Every one of those horses he has to look round for fo all four feet up. [328] That's two up, that's two up at er two or three up at , or [...] . |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[329] Are they employed by ? |
| (PS22B) |
[330] Yes. [331] [...] That was [...] on the place. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[332] Oh, I see, he had his actual own |
| (PS22B) |
[333] Oh, yes |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[334] blacksmiths? |
| (PS22B) |
[335] Oh, yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[336] Because there are also some independent blacksmiths |
| (PS22B) |
[337] Oh er , oh yeah, got his place, well his men go round, he had got two or three men in every yard he has,. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[338] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[339] He's just died, he has er he was head man of the lot of 'em. [340] The head blacksmith, of the lot. [341] He was Jockey Club man in charge of them all, oh yes. [342] You couldn't come and, you come bouncing in here and say you were a blacksmith. [343] You couldn't get started. [344] Oh, no. [345] So strict. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[346] So you have to be ... |
| (PS22B) |
[347] You had to be certified and serve your apprenticeship. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[348] And accepted by the Jockey Club. |
| (PS22B) |
[349] With everything, yeah,fo for a blacksmith today. [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[350] What about in days gone by? |
| (PS22B) |
[351] What? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[352] What about in days gone by? |
| (PS22B) |
[353] Days gone by? [354] Well, you had to send miles for them, didn't you er er blacksmith. [355] Blacksmiths were the thing on the side of the road, didn't he do all the wheeling, mend your wheels, and all horse, all iron wheels, and things like that, won't years ago, and you had to send for him to come and do 'em,w well, he had men that he'd, that he'd taught like boys, apprentices. [356] He, they used to go out and do all the outside work for him. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[357] All the horses? |
| (PS22B) |
[358] Yeah. [359] Oh yeah. [360] Blacksmiths started on the side of the road, that's how blacksmiths started. [361] Who's gonna do all th them years ago, was all horse and carts, |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[362] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[363] who was gonna ... axles and the bicycles and everything like that. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[364] But in Newmarket with the racing stables. |
| (PS22B) |
[365] Oh, there was always blacksmiths here. [366] Always blacksmiths. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[367] Did they have their own blacksmiths then, or would there be like in the town that went round [...] ? |
| (PS22B) |
[368] No, no, they didn't have. [369] They used to have ... some had their own blacksmiths. [370] The Honourable George like Lord Derby, he had their own, always did. [371] They've shops up there now, all got blacksmiths shop, you see. [372] Every stable. [373] We had [...] , you see, everything, everything, tooling for the plates, everything you wanna make. [374] Your irons used to come longer than this ... irons, where you measure horses feet and you know, measure 'em up. [375] You know they measure across from heel to toe |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[376] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[377] then across from there to there. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[378] From side to side. |
| (PS22B) |
[379] Always do on a bed of wheat straw, so you nip it off from where the [...] you see, and you know your measurement. [380] Yeah. [381] Oh yeah ... asking a man on this television the other night,th the heath man. [382] I don't know if you seen it or not. [383] , his name is. [384] Now how can you tell the one horse from another? [385] Well ... he said it would be by the markings. [386] Yes, but he wouldn't get the markings unless he be through me. [387] Or somebody in the yard he was paying. [388] And you had to get, get a bit of paper and you drew a straight line, straight line, see like that, and if he had two white legs you put a cross, two white ... see, if he had a long one, he had put a big cross, if he had a long, two long white leg, if he had me behind you put a cross. [389] If he had a white face, you put a mark down that way ... see. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[390] So it's like marking the points out on a horse, with crosses? |
| (PS22B) |
[391] Yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[392] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[393] I'll show you before you go, give you a bit of paper |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[394] Yeah. |
| (PS22B) |
[395] wh where we used to mark 'em. [396] And when they say what we call 'em touts they were called then you know. [397] Touts. [398] On the heath. [399] [...] Some people chase them away, wouldn't let you see horses work and all that, you know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[400] Oh, these were people trying to find out what horses might win a ra |
| (PS22B) |
[401] Yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[402] yeah, be fit enough to win a race? |
| (PS22B) |
[403] Race, yeah. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[404] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[405] Very strict years ago, very strict. [406] They used to get up trees with glasses and look [...] with everything they |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[407] Would they? [408] [laughing] Like spies [] . |
| (PS22B) |
[409] Oh, very strict years ago. [410] They wouldn't let you th see anything. [411] Oh no ... er er that's the secret of er [...] that was. [412] Oh yeah, oh,h have a good look. [413] Foggy mornings, you used to gallop them in the fog, the best, gallop horses in the fog. [414] See [...] say you don't gonna gallop five fur you didn't gallop five furlongs, well, they might think you're gonna finish five, you only galloped 'em four. [415] See pulled up. [416] You done 'em all like that. [417] ... Ah. [418] ... Get up early in the mornings,gallo take 'em out and gallop 'em, take 'em back in. [419] Shut the gates. [420] Some of the men didn't know they'd been out exercising. |
| Joyce (PS22A) | [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[421] Ah, I'm telling you the truth. [422] That's where I served my time they didn't ... phew ... [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[423] These, these touts. [424] What were they looking for? |
| (PS22B) |
[425] Why, the books, report in the papers. [426] They all had a paper the Evening News, the Standard, the Star, the Sporting Life ah all the papers wanted to know about the horses. [427] So the tr the owners who owned them them days you could read about them, but they don't do it today, cos the trainers ring them up and tell them how they're going, don't they? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[428] So when you put these markings ... on your piece of paper |
| (PS22B) |
[429] Yeah. [430] They paid you for it, they had to pay, to pay [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[431] Who paid you for doing that? |
| (PS22B) |
[432] [...] wanted them on the heath. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[433] What the heath men or the touts? |
| (PS22B) |
[434] Touts. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[435] Ow! [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[436] Touts. [437] Of course,yo you don't go tell him, it don't come on there does it. [438] Cos you can live down there [...] you know you're doing this you see. [439] But that's how they used to know. [440] Oh yeah. [441] Al any mark or a white spot on them ... all tricks of the trade. [442] If the lads had any brains th the touts used to say yearlings, they, in the yard got any, yes, get the markings for us, you see. [443] They used take them and give them a drink. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[444] Really? |
| (PS22B) |
[445] But then, most of them relied on the head men, we used to tell them you see, to keep their mouth shut. [446] So that when we galloped them they didn't know, see, mm, years ago they were very particular an another man didn't li , say I had horses and you had horses, I wouldn't like my horses galloping with yours. [447] See my meaning? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[448] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[449] And th I, I wouldn't want yours galloping with mine. [450] You understand? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[451] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[452] So you had to be pally so that your owners help one another. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[453] Yes. |
| (PS22B) |
[454] Get my meaning? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[455] So |
| (PS22B) |
[456] Oh yeah, they don't stand for that today, you know. [457] Galloping one owner's horse with another. [458] Oh no. [459] Phew, you'd be surprised. [460] Oh it ain't all, ain't all cushy, it's, it's a bit secret on some things, you know. [461] Owners don't know everything. [462] If they see their horses done [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) | [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[463] You shoot me when you have a read of that. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[464] [laughing] No [] |
| (PS22B) |
[465] Giving secrets away. [466] Oh yeah, very, very, very ... phew oh yeah, they didn't like it. [467] They used to ring one another up [...] owners and they know one another in the yard. [468] Oh definitely, they don't mind helping one another. [469] See? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[470] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[471] That's why Lord [...] wouldn't have to give all that money. [472] What was it, ninety, ninety odd, ninety five thousand pound. [473] [...] won last week at somewhere didn wasn't last week to lead Slip Anchor. [474] To lead him work, instead of borrowing other people's in the yard. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[475] To lead him? |
| (PS22B) |
[476] To lead the horse. [477] Yes, you have to have a lead horse in work. [478] In front of your good ones. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[479] What so you can pace, be paced by it you mean? |
| (PS22B) |
[480] Yeah |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[481] He's doing this horse now, Reckless Boy, he's leading him now. [482] Oh yeah. [483] That's why we Slip Anchor won so far he wasn't from here to [...] cross the road. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[484] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[485] See, cos he had this lead horse [...] you horses jumped off. [486] Made off couldn't catch him. [487] That's what this one'll do. [488] You see. [489] See him far up ahead. [490] They'll be coming down here saying thank you, [...] what's the date today. [491] Oh first of May tomorrow, yeah, no, Friday |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[492] Friday |
| (PS22B) |
[493] about the twenty ninth today. [494] Well, you can always say I missed tomorrow's till the end of April. [495] They tell me he'll win the Derby. [496] Yeah. [497] Going well he is, I tell you. [sigh] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[498] Is he? |
| (PS22B) |
[499] I think th I think the Frenchman will win the one thousand tomorrow and er, will ride the winner of the two thousand, Different to Me, or something, it's called. [500] I don't think 'll stay, myself. [501] [...] Different people, different opinions, that's my opinion. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[502] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[503] That's all I know. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[504] So what would race days be like in |
| (PS22B) |
[505] Race days? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[506] years ago? |
| (PS22B) |
[507] Oh, they stayed just the same as they are today,yo you carried on just the same, only the difference in them now, race days years ago, the heath was shut at half past nine. [508] You couldn't go on the heath and train horses up after half past nine. [509] You understand, not this side. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[510] Mm. |
| (PS22B) |
[511] Race people, race days you see, people come to their races and put their tents and things up. [512] And you all had to go over that side. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[513] Over the Bury side. |
| (PS22B) |
[514] Over Bury side, where you come down that hill. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[515] Yeah |
| (PS22B) |
[516] They always worked over that [...] and around there. [517] The other places look across the heath as you come up the, the road anywhere, but not on this side. [518] Half past nine they finish. [519] Same as the Limekilns, they are today. [520] There's a certain gallop on the Limekiln shut at half past nine. [521] If it's not shut at half past nine, it don't open till half past nine. [522] You understand? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[523] Mhm. |
| (PS22B) |
[524] [...] it don't open till all the [...] people have used the short gallops. [525] See cos you have to cross over 'em. [526] You have to start at the top of the town that way, and go down over down and come round like that, finish off start down Norwich Road and come up Bury Road. [527] So that's how far round it was. [528] I suppose [...] a mile and three quarters, I think. [529] And one red house to the top of the [...] lights, traffic lights. [530] From one side of the road up the other. [531] That's how it used to be years ago. [532] Of course I co couldn't tell you now the different ways, they do what they like now. [533] That's all I can hear about [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) | [...] |
| (PS22B) |
[534] [...] allowed to gallop his horses across the heath, er and all this rot. [535] Terrible. [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[536] [...] did erm on race days, how did they organize the races? [537] When you were a young lad. |
| (PS22B) |
[538] Organize ... well, they organize theirselves. [539] The jockeys |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[540] That's me, it's all right, it's my microphone. |
| (PS22B) |
[541] that's erm, erm nothing to do with us, the Jockey Club do all that. [542] Th they organized all the races. [543] All we got to do is enter, enter the horses in you get a paper called the Calendar. [544] When you have that calendar sent you, it's a lot of money now. [545] It used to be three and sixpence I think, it is about five pounds now. [546] Well, you look through it, and every race meeting that's on there, probably five or six weeks. [547] And you look through every horse [...] wherever you want to put your horse in them races are in that Calendar and you pick your race out, put your horse in, pay your forfeit. [548] Then you have to pay another forfeit if you leave him in. [549] Understand? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[550] Pay another forfeit if you leave him? |
| (PS22B) |
[551] Forfeit. [552] You pay a forfeit to put him in that race. [553] See, if you want him to stop in it, you gotta keep paying the forfeit all the time th them weeks that go by. [554] Same as years ago. [555] I don't know, I don't think, think it's altered now, years ago you had to enter your y Derby horse. [556] You had to enter them as foals, and then when you entered them it cost you fifty pounds to enter them, and it cost you fifty pounds for every quarter of that lifetime of that foal. [557] So you run in the Derby. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[558] Why did you have to enter them as foals? |
| (PS22B) |
[559] Oh, I don't know, that was their idea, years ago. [560] But I think it's changed |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[561] Just [...] |
| (PS22B) |
[562] but I think it's changing now, I don't know. [563] I, I, I been out it a long while now. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[564] Did, did the racecourse used to be busy? |
| (PS22B) |
[565] What? [566] Busy, you couldn't get through the streets for charabancs and charabancs in them days. [567] Cabs and all all lined up outside the White Hart Jockey Club Rooms. [568] All lined up the street. [569] Cabs, you used to jump in and drive them up the road cos there were no motor cars. [570] Oh no ... there weren't motor cars out for years, called them charabancs, charabancs you know. [571] You used to meet in the Avenue, meet in the High Street. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[572] What taxis? |
| (PS22B) |
[573] Meet at the station. [574] Used to be specials from the station. [575] [...] at station charabancs. [576] Ooh ... all sorts, heath carts, donkey carts everything. [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[577] So there was quite a bit of business in Newmarket for anyone who |
| (PS22B) |
[578] Oh the pictures, it's a pity I haven't got some. [579] I ain't got some of the old pictures for ya. [580] But it was a, a very good, very good in the old days. [581] They sold horses outside the Jockey Club room years ago. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[582] Sold them? |
| (PS22B) |
[583] Sold them, yeah. [584] A man used to stand on,no not them gates was there years ago there was a wall there. [585] See be on a block, standing on the block. [586] You used to run your horses up and down outside there and they used to sell them. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[587] What, racehorses? |
| (PS22B) |
[588] Yeah, anything, and anything. [589] You sell ... everything. [590] Anything. [591] They sell anything. [592] Up and down that's what they used to do. [...] |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[593] When was this? [laugh] |
| (PS22B) |
[594] Oh, this is the old fashion, years ago. [595] There's photographs of some people, I wish I could get them 'em. [596] Marvellous. [597] The things that used to go on in Newmarket. [598] Ah, God yes. |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[599] Was that this century? |
| (PS22B) |
[600] Ah? |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[601] This century? |
| (PS22B) |
[602] Oh, yes. [603] Ah, yes, of course it was. [604] Yes |
| Joyce (PS22A) |
[605] What before the ... |