| PS3EE | Ag2 | m | (nicky campbell, age 30+, tv presenter) unspecified |
| PS3EF | Ag4 | m | (john taylor, age 50+, member of parliament (ulster unionist) for strangford) unspecified |
| PS3EG | Ag3 | f | (clare short, age 40+, member of parliament (labour)) unspecified |
| PS3EH | Ag5 | m | (tim pat, age 60+, historian, ira expert) unspecified |
| PS3EJ | Ag3 | m | (martin dillon, age 40+, author, Author of The Dirty War, about the Irish conflict) unspecified |
| PS3EK | Ag4 | m | (sir william ross, age 50+, member of parliament for east londonderry) unspecified |
| PS3EL | Ag4 | m | (Ray, age 50+, ex-soldier) unspecified |
| PS3EM | Ag4 | m | (Michael, age 50+, lieutenant-colonel, counter-terrorism expert) unspecified |
| PS3EN | Ag3 | f | (Mary, age 40+, Representing the Troops Out movement) unspecified |
| HV2PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| HV2PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[1] [music] Welcome back. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [clapping] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[2] The body count in that most British of places a fish shop, was nine dead. [3] By tonight the terrorists' toll was seventeen, but the city was over the water, Belfast, and even the politicians were running out of words to express their horror. [4] Today the British and Irish Prime Ministers debated whether to talk to the terrorists. [5] Should we, or should they just be rounded up and locked up? [6] John Taylor, Ulster Unionist MP for Strangford. [7] In nineteen seventy two the I R A attempted to assassinate you and you were a very very lucky man,yo your body was was absolutely riddled with bullets. [8] Erm th thank god you're here today. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[9] Yeah. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[10] Er what's the atmosphere like in Belfast, what's it been like this week? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[11] Well the atmosphere is very bad indeed in Belfast because er we had this before of course twenty years ago we had various bad situations but it hasn't been so bad in recent years, but this last fortnight, er we've had U V F killings, then we had this terrible bomb by the I R A killing the protestants in the Shankhill Road. [12] The U V F which is now a much larger terrorist organization has responded by killing catholics and there's tremendous fear now in both communities, there used to be just fear in the protestant communities, they were being attacked by the I R A, but now as the Cardinal has said there's very big fear in the catholic community as well. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[13] There's re the tension really has |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[14] There's what I have called a parity of fear, |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[15] Yeah. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[16] in both communities now and this is creating tension. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[17] So what's the way ahead with dealing with the terrorists? [18] Now. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[19] Well er y it's you cannot solve it by a security policy alone. [20] Yo first of all you must distinguish Northern Ireland from other ar territories in the world where there has been terrorism. [21] Like in South Africa or like in Cyprus or Kenya. [22] In those areas, the people didn't have votes. [23] Palestine they didn't have votes. [24] P L O. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[25] We'll come to this but briefly t |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[26] In Northern Ireland, we have democracy and |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[27] Yeah |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[28] ninety per cent of the people vote against the terrorists, |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[29] Sure |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[30] they don't want anything to do with it . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[31] So what's the way ahead against the terrorists? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[32] The way ahead is to intern the terrorists from |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[33] Wi |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[34] both communities |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[35] without trial? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[36] Oh yes, without trial, from both communities and secondly alongside it and in parallel introduce a new political initiative in Northern Ireland, to get the catholics and protestants involved in the administration of their own country where they live. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[37] And why by interning terrorists, you would include Gerry Addams for example? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[38] Definitely yes. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[39] How many years [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[40] One second I'll come to you, we've got more talking to do before I do come to you. [41] Clare Short look at that picture there. [42] We've got Gerry Addams who er wanted earlier in the week if we were to believe what seemed now like [...] to be sitting at a table discussing peace, there he is carrying a bomber's coffin. [43] How can that man ever be taken seriously, should he not be locked up? |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[44] I think to talk like that is to just to want to let it go on and on and on. [45] W we tried internment before, it caused a massive escalation of violence cos you never, you get [...] families are angry, it escalates the numbers who are committed to terrorism, last time it was just the Republicans, if we did it on both sides it would just escalate terrorism. [46] It would be a disaster. [47] What we also have is the British and Irish government, John Major and Gerry Addams all talking seriously about a possible peace initiative. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[48] How can he be |
| clare short (PS3EG) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[49] taken seriously when he's doing that? |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[50] I'm not interested whether you take him seriously or not. [51] I am interested whether there's a possibility of bringing an end to the violence in Northern Ireland. [52] And all serious people who regret all the people who've died and been maimed should be interested in that. [53] And just playing games with that picture takes us nowhere. [54] Everyone can den denounce each other and we can go on forever |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[55] It's not games. |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[56] and it'll never get better. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [clapping] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[57] It's not games. [58] It is a reality. [59] He, that is a photo opportunity that Gerry Addams took and it was on the front page of everybody's newspaper . |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[60] Everybody in the country knows that . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[61] John Taylor. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[62] Well [...] what I think what Clare forgets, I know Clare comes from a a republican background, [...] in South Armagh, and she s probably sees it only from that point of view . |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[63] I come from Birmingham actually. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[64] I know but your family are from that |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[65] I come from here. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[66] Yeah but I'm thinking of your background, where your roots are. [67] You've got to s remember there are two sets of terrorists in Northern Ireland now. |
| clare short (PS3EG) | [...] |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[68] Not just republican, we have loyalists as well and the loyalists have the potential for being the bigger and more effective of the two, and if we let the I R A to continue without interning them, you are going to have the situation deteriorating in the way which you don't want and I don't want, and you're going to end up as the chief constable of the R U C said a few weeks ago with Dublin being bombed. [69] That is what's ahead of us and we've got to warn people that that is ahead and try and take action now before it gets out of control. |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[70] And that's why the Unionist parties have a duty to be more interested in this possible peace. [71] Lots of the people who vote for you have been hurt and maimed and injured. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) | [...] |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[72] You are all saying we're not interested, we're not interested. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[73] We are interested . |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[74] Maybe this could take us somewhere, and your people would and you you yourself were nearly killed. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[75] Yes I never [...] |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[76] Surely we should try and see |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[77] I don't know what you're talking about,we of course we're interested in peace, we want peace. [78] We |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[79] No you're not you denounce it all the time. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[80] had talks, round table talks at Stormant this year and John Major hardly ever appeared, he stayed in Strasbourg. [81] He's he puts more into talking with the I R A and Sinn Fein than he does with the Unionist community who at the end of the day are the majority in Northern Ireland . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[82] Let's go back to the terrorists just er just just briefly [...] , Clare whatever you say, that's a p potent picture and it was a deliberate photo opportunity. [83] What was he doing, what's his thinking there? [84] You're an acknowledged expert on the I R A Tim Pat . |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[85] Well I think even if you don't do it as one christian or as one human being to another, even if you do it in the view of a general who sleeps with the enemy general's picture over his bed and you've gotta try and think into this man's mind, remember he's from West Belfast, he's from the area that this man was killed in. [86] He'd already made a very courageous statement condemning him |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[87] No he didn't condemn him. |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[88] at the time. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[89] He didn't condemn it. |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[90] I didn't interrupt you now |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[91] Yes. |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[92] I know your notions of democracy are based on your former Stormant but don't interrupt me . |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[93] But I'm correcting you, yeah, [clears throat] yeah no he didn't condemn it he did not condemn it. [94] [clapping] I don't like [...] misrepresenting what he's saying . |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[95] He he he condemned that man |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[96] No he didn't. |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[97] who is dead, he condemned another of his followers who was lying badly injured in hospital, like this unfortunate man here who was blinded, and I can understand why Clare feels badly about this tabloid television, it's not a time for exciting, you know I everybody er is appalled by any bereavement or misery. [98] Let me finish. [99] He did all that he did all that at the same time [...] if he is go |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[100] [...] you can't make those accusations when he stepped beneath the coffin for two minutes to deliberately have his photograph taken. |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[101] Th the fact of the matter is that at the next general election, the Stormant or the Westminster election, Gerry Addams will win that seat. [102] Not because he carried that coffin but because the people on his side are ravaged, their nerve ends are torn raw, and if he |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[103] d backed off and didn't support a dead fellow Irishman he'd be dead politically |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[104] Is Gerry Addams |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[105] and the peace initiative would be dead, and that's what we should be talking about not making cheap debating [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[106] Is Gerry Addams a man of peace? |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[107] He is, |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) | [...] |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[108] he certainly is yes. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[109] Oh. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[110] John Taylor. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[111] Gerry Addams is a man who supports the murder campaign by the I R A terrorists, always defends it and he didn't condemn the killing of the protestants on the Shankhill Road by that I R A man, he carried that I R A man's body at the funeral, what he said was it was unfortunate that innocent people were killed. [112] That's what he said, that's a different from condemning it . |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[113] [...] shattered by [...] |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[114] Mm. [115] Shattered. [116] But he didn't condemn it. [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[117] Martin Dillon another expert on the on the on the terror campaign, and also |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [cough] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[118] there's an arm a general army council of the [...] I R A |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[119] right at the top that's in the [...] yeah? |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[120] Well are you asking wh what is Gerry Addams? |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[121] And what's his position in th is he on the I R A council ? |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[122] L l l let's try to explain for for an audience that's looking at television pictures here and what we're talking about. [123] In Sinn Fein and the I R A there is an umbrella organization and we've gotta be careful legally here. [124] The organization is called the Republican Movement. [125] The Republican Movement has general orders which apply to everyone within that movement. [126] That movement is a mixture of Sinn Fein which is the political dimension to the struggle and the I R A. [127] Now my, I mean I would have to say, I mean very clearly, that they're inseparable. [128] I mean in the sense that their objective is the same, then it's the same organization. [129] Now for me to say that Gerry Addams is a member of the I R A, I'm not gonna to do that. [130] What I will say is that Gerry Addams is a member of the Republican Movement. [131] You can judge for yourself. [132] Is the Republican Movement the I R A, I would have to say logically of course it's the I R A. [133] Would Gerry Addams be like a large company, a director of that of an organization, a large company? [134] You'd have to say of course he's a director of that company . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[135] Right, right I know what you're saying and you've got to be very very careful. [136] Sir William Ross, you're an MP for East Londonderry. [137] Erm internment is something that you believe in. [138] Now surely if you're gonna intern the leaders and m might they include Gerry Addams and we we could talk about the other side, we could talk about the Loyalist er paramilitaries equally, surely there's just another wave gonna come along because it's a never ending assembly line of terrorists, so what's the point? |
| sir william ross (PS3EK) |
[139] Well the reality is of course that Clare has already told us that internment didn't work the last time, it was badly done the last time. [140] It worked on every other occasion when it was tried both th north and south and was used very widely in the republic in the past to behead the terrorist organizations. [141] And that is what we're talking about, we're talking about taking out the two or three hundred really active people, the control and the command structure of the I R A and of the other terrorist organizations and putting them in. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[142] But then Tim Pat do n other active people not just come along? |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[143] That's exactly what we heard [...] saying, we're bombing civilians to take out the control and command structure. [144] It wasn't they took three hundred people the last time and now he's talking about three hundred. [145] You'd only just multiply the thing, you'd spill petrol on an already burning flame. [...] |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[146] And the situation's very tense at the moment anyway and it would just |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[147] But the intern I have to say this, this is [...] I R A. [148] There wouldn't be an I R A only for internment the last time. [149] Apart from the fact they got the wrong ones, as Clare said |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[150] they s you know they just multiplied all through the place . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[151] That's nonsense, that's [...] nonsense |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[152] When it was done before in the republic, you wanna quote history, you wanna quote it accurately, it was done with the agreement of a sovereign people. [153] The whole of the people in the republic agreed within their own undivided [...] , this is a divided country, a divided community rather, and such a vote [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[154] Has been succ there has been su there have been successes though haven't there ? |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[155] No [...] such a vote of no confidence has never yet been passed in a west European state. [156] A British government said they were so undemocratic, they took away that, parliament. [157] It hasn't been restored, there's a bloody vacuum. [158] What is needed is a constitutional |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [cough] |
| tim pat (PS3EH) |
[159] political solution, not internment. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[160] John Taylor. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[161] Well, I I still look ahead, and I recognize the loyalist paramilitaries have now the potential to become the major force. [162] And they will be bombing Dublin, and once that starts Dublin will be more anxious to agree with us to have internment in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. [163] And it's just a pity |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[164] Now [...] |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[165] it's just a pity that they're sitting back in their armchairs in Dublin thinking they're immune from the situation that's developing before our eyes. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[166] The chief constable comes from Dublin [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[167] and the republic in fact spend three and half times as much per capita as is spent by the United Kingdom in trying to restrain terrorism . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[168] Yeah, [...] oh yes I agree [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[169] What about all this talk of bombing Dublin, what about all th |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[170] [...] explain to you, this is a [...] this is [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[171] No it's not this is what the chief constable of the R U C, the Dublin man that you've just mentioned said it, he said it. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[172] I walked through Dublin in nineteen seventy four in May, the worst single atrocity that has happened was the bombing of Dublin . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[173] That's right, that's right |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[174] Thirty five people who were killed that day and remember that on Yorkshire television it's been established that there were and this is something you gotta [...] over, people like you had got the ear of the Special Branch and murky people in the establishment of the [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[175] the murky people [...] I R A [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[176] were let off the leash and [...] with |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[177] Yeah, yeah |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[178] that help without it they wouldn't. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[179] What about these threats of bombing Dublin, the the the loyalist paramilitaries getting the upper hand as John Taylor is saying there, is bombing Dublin a real |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[180] Le let's deal |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[181] possibility? [182] Let's deal with that first then you can deal with what you wanna deal with. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[183] Is bombing Dublin a real possibility? |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[184] Erm of course there's a real possibility. [185] I mean the one thing that has happened in recent times, and I don't like [...] prophecies so, I don't wish to be a part of one, let's be clear about that, I'm doing this as an analyst. [186] Erm the loyalist paramilitaries have become much more sophisticated than they've ever been in their history. [187] Erm I would say that in the past the loyalist paramilitaries, apart from the obvious thing which was easy going out just and killing catholics as they've been doing recently. [188] Erm they've developed along the lines of the provisional I R A, they've developed a sales structure. [189] They're much more sophisticated than they've ever been in the past. [190] They're much more capable probably of conducting a campaign |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[191] They've no political wing like the I R A they do they? |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[192] No it it is probably one of the difficulties if it ever |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[193] comes to to negotiate with them. [194] What I'm actually saying is, they are a very serious threat. [195] Now if I could just come back to one other thing, cos Tim Pat was raising it. [196] Erm internment erm I think is always a very dangerous option, because it presupposes there is no political solution. [197] And really it's up to politicians. [198] I mean the politicians I think have failed the people of Northern Ireland. [199] On both sides of the water. [200] It was never on the agenda in Britain which I think was one of the major problems in the early days. [201] I think the army really was the fall guy. [202] I mean the army was left to do a job which politicians should have done. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[203] And the army opted for internment. [204] And really it has to be said and has to be said historically that I mean the army in a way was left with a job which politicians should have sorted out before it got to that stage. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[205] We're gonna to speak to some army people Martin. [206] We're gonna have to |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[207] And that is als , [...] I'm just saying that it's a very dangerous |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[208] Right. |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[209] thing today to suggest that there is a security solution. [210] It presupposes that the intelligence people have the information now, [...] hold on the |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[211] Well come on, they know who they are, they know who they are, they must do |
| martin dillon (PS3EJ) |
[212] I R A are bombing this country unfortunately, they've no right to bomb it. [213] And the fact is I mean nobody seems to be able to stop them. [214] And it goes on. [215] Now if the intelligence community is that good, let's be very clear about it, it would be easy, and to sa suggest that internment might make it easier, I think is wrong. [216] Who's going to take charge of internment? [217] The R U C or the army? |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[218] Let's speak to erm we talked about the soldiers there, let's speak to some soldiers. [219] First of all erm a a man who served over there. [220] Er Ray, you were a victim of the I R A, can you tell me what happened? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[221] Yes, erm I was a victim from er an I R A bomb. [222] Erm we were on patrol, just a normal patrol in er in Belfast and unfortunately I lost my sight and two very good friends of mine were killed, and another was er blinded in one eye and severe injuries to his leg. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[223] What was your patrol doing? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[224] Just normal patrols, looking after the people of Belfast. [225] And of course, when this all happened, and I'm listening to what people are saying tonight, it's it's sort of making me feel a bit sick what they're saying. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[226] Why is that? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[227] One supports that I lay in the street looking and waiting for a a man they mention tonight and that man is a well known killer of British soldiers. [228] And I'm now asked |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[229] Which man? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[230] I'm now asked to respect him. [231] And I'm sorry, I cannot respect a man |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[232] The man who's name has been mentioned tonight? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[233] Tonight. [234] I cannot say that anybody can respect a man in this country and to run for their country as a well known I R A supporter. [235] And he's up there on one of your pictures. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[236] Mhm. |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[237] And I cannot |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [clapping] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[238] What would then, what would be your solution as a soldier who served over there, a victim of terrorism, what would your solution be? |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[239] I see many ways of a solution but there is never positive solution, but I feel that they are putting units into this country, like [...] they can bomb anywhere they like in this country. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[240] There's been a car bomb in London tonight as well. |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[241] I didn't here that. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[242] Mm. |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[243] I'm very sorry if people got injured. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[244] You're getting innocent people, men and women killed, children killed and we're expected to accept this. [245] I feel they're putting units into this country, why not us put a unit into their country, not to kill their women and children, but to kill the people who's actually doing it, whether they be I R A, U D A, knock 'em out, let's have 'em out once and for all. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [clapping] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[246] Well, well you could say that's a very er a purely e em emotional er response and you can understand that, but I want to speak to to you er Colonel Michael , you're with the Royal Green Jackets. [247] Now never mind the rights and wrongs |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[248] I was was with them |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[249] You were with them yes. [250] Never mind the rights of wrongs of what Ray said, |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[251] Mm |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[252] er w I I suspect you don't agree with what Ray said. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[253] I don't. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[254] But how long would it take for the army, the S A S or whatever to go in and erm clean up the situation as it were? [255] In purely practical terms ? |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[256] Well that that is an entirely hypothetical question. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[257] But in purely practical terms. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[258] [...] but I I'm sorry b if you would let me answer. [259] What I would wish to make absolutely clear is I don't believe that in the context of a liberal democracy that is even remotely a possibil it's a possibility but it's not an acceptable solution . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[260] You've made that clear, you've made that absolutely clear. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[261] But yes it could be done, but even if it were done, and you were quite right, the the the intelligence is insufficiently precise to actually hit everybody. [262] We might be able to write off fifty per cent or something like of that order, er of of of er known terrorists, but one would not be able to solve the situation even using those methods and you would create martyrs, you would merely exacerbate the situation, quite apart from the legal er horror, I mean i it is it is inconceivable in in in Britain, that sort of action. [263] But even if it were, in would be ineffective. [264] The the the intelligence is insufficient. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[265] Can I just now you predicated that answer by saying this cannot be countenanced in a normal liberal democracy. [266] Now there's seventeen people died in in Northern Ireland this week. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[267] Mm. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[268] Are we talking about a normal liberal democracy? |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[269] The fact that some members of that democracy, some individuals, flight its rules, doesn't mean that those, the vast majority, the ninety nine point nine per cent of us, follow their example. [270] No we must er abide by the rule of law, as we always have done, as our trad as our traditions demand and as most of the people in this room I'm sure in their hearts would wish to. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[271] Can I ask you, when the army went in in nineteen sixty nine, did you go in then? [272] In sixty nine? |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[273] I wasn't as I was there in the early seventies f for my first [...] and then subsequently . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[274] Right, do you think do you think did the army consider they were going into a colonial situation? |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[275] No I don't think that's an accurate er characterization. [276] I think the army thought they were going in to a situation where they could they could help, they saw themselves if you like as the referees er as a neutral party in between two sides. [277] That situation only lasted for about a year and of course soon er the army was portrayed as the enemy, particularly by the I R A and the republican party and the republican population. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[278] [...] I take part of a thesis and I think [...] I mean a lot of it is is very very important in terms of even considering internment, in relation to the whole intelligence problem. [279] I think when the army went in that the army because there was no political direction from Westminster, we've seen the seats in the House of Commons, I mean nobody's there when Sir Patrick 's talking about Northern Ireland, which I think is absolutely disgraceful, when they're talking about their salaries they're there. [280] Erm and so the army was left in a position where all it could do really was rely on its own history. [281] And so therefore all it could do was look at Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, in terms of actually, I'm talking about the practicalities of |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[282] Mhm. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[283] you know, how an army actually behaves and how it thinks. [284] As mercenaries do. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[285] Well internment worked in Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, internment worked there. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[286] But the methods [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[287] The methods they used were were the same tactical methods |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[288] Yes |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[289] used in colonial situations. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[290] Ab absolutely, absolutely. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[291] Some hands are going up, some hands are going up. [292] I want to find out what people are saying, yes I'll come to you in just a second about internment. [293] What would you like to say? [294] Over here. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[295] Er the MP er the terrorists of today in further generations, the only way to stop them is to stamp out the supplier of er their arms and their money, as without th er the guns and the bombs er the edge have gone. [296] The edge has er gone off terrorism. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[297] Now you're from the Troops Out movement. [298] You've been dying to speak all night. [299] Perhaps you could address your point, cos I know you want the troops out, you think that'll be the key role to all the problems in Northern Ireland. [300] What would you say to Ray? |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[301] I think er it's tragic what happened to Ray and I think it's also tragic what's happening to people. [302] You're talking about sending the S A S in. [303] The S A S are already there and there are people that have been shot dead, unarmed people, civilians who've been shot dead by the S A S. [304] I think |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[305] That's rubbish. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[306] that the calls for internment |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[307] That's just not true. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[308] I I think the calls |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[309] It's not true? |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[310] for internment |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[311] Of course it's not true no. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[312] I haven't finished |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[313] The S A S have operated in Northern Ireland and have been for a long time. [314] But they have operated against terrorists, they those terrorists have committed a crime and through intelligence the S A S have been in situ and have immediately shot those criminals. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[315] So the S A S are there? [316] Can I just say |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[317] Ray. |
| Michael (PS3EM) |
[318] Yes they are there. [319] Yes |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[320] that er |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[321] Ray wants to say something. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[322] Yes I I haven't said anything |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[323] Then you can come back. |
| Ray (PS3EL) |
[324] My point is, you heard the [...] say how well equipped the U D A are. [325] Now that's the other side. [326] So therefore if you pulled the troops out tomorrow, what would happen tomorrow? |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[327] Can I answer? |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[328] Well I'm waiting for you. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[329] Oh sorry I thought the [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[330] No you've [...] you carry on. |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[331] Oh sorry. [332] The er the troops w have been there for twenty five years nearly. [333] And there is still no signs of peace. [334] The talk of internment and sending in the S A S is an admission of political failure. [335] Now every opinion poll in er Britain for the last twenty two years has said that they believe that has shown that the people believe that the troops should not be in Northern Ireland . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[336] Right let's just another little er shout from this gentleman here. [337] What would you like to say? |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[338] Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[339] And it's for p for p for publicity. [tape change] . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[340] Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[341] And it's for p for p for publicity. [342] Publicity, the er the media should get out and not report all these er [...] . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[343] Oh starve them of publicity,th that'll [...] . [344] Surely, in the in the long run |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[345] Can I just say on the [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[346] John Taylor yeah. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[347] Very briefly on the British troops. [348] First of all British troops have been in in Northern Ireland for a hundred and ninety five years since eighteen hundred. [349] They didn't just go in twenty three years ago as somebody suggested. [350] Secondly, think what would happen if you took the troops out of Northern Ireland tonight. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[351] You would a Bosnia immediately, it would break up, send the U N in, look what it's done in Bosnia [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[352] We are we are we are running out of time, John Taylor John Taylor I'll come to you in a second, John Taylor shush, shush you've had your shout, John Taylor |
| Mary (PS3EN) |
[353] I've had hardly any shout [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[354] Be be quiet please, John Taylor . |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[355] Yes. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[356] You talked about Bosnia there |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[357] Yeah. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[358] In Bosnia, Dr David Owen is sitting at the conference table with people who've committed genocide every day. [359] Surely the logic in that is that we sh we should sit down |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[360] the British government should sit down with Gerry Addams. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[361] If you take the British army out of Northern Ireland tonight, the U D A would clean up, you would have real civil war, it would be worse than ever, we have to be thankful that catholics and protestants |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[362] If Owen is talking , if Owen is talking [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[363] [shouting] Quiet, be quiet, be quiet [] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[364] be a nice, be a nice man, be a nice man . |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[365] I am asking this man a question, you have some manners please. [366] If David Owen is talking to terrorists, why don't the British government talk to Gerry Addams? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[367] They did and look where it got them. [368] They did that in nineteen seventy two, that's right |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[369] In nineteen seventy two. [370] That was a long time ago, there's been a lot of water under the bridge, why not talk again ? |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[371] And a lot of blood under it as well. [372] But I, the reality is this |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[373] [...] sorry. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[374] that if you don't have internment, what are you going to do? [375] Put up with what's going on, because the reality is, there's nobody in Northern Ireland prepared to stand up now and give evidence in open court, because if they do they're dead before the week is done. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[376] Or the next day. |
| john taylor (PS3EF) |
[377] And time after time after time, there have been cases prepared and whenever they came to court, there was nobody prepared to go into that courtroom . |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[378] Nicky can I make a point? |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[379] Excuse me. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[380] Well he's one of the people who's prepared to recognize the English, the Scottish and the Welsh on this Ireland, [...] |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[381] Oh now you see why we can't get peace. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[382] I was gonna say this Nicky. |
| clare short (PS3EG) |
[383] Nothing serious. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[384] My my gran |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [clapping] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[385] My grandparents and my grandchildren have this in common. [386] They both spoke about the Irish troubles. [387] It's time to stop that. [388] It's time to say the Irish problem is not impossible, it can be settled between the two sovereign governments, it's time for these people to stop saying, Ulster says no, that is no solution. |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[389] [...] briefly |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[390] We've gotta talk to everybody |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[391] Briefly, briefly tonight er Reynolds and Major issued this statement which said all those claiming a serious interest in advancing the cause of peace in Ireland should renounce [...] of or support for violence if and when such a renunciation of violence has been made and sufficiently demonstrated, new doors could open, do you think the I R A might well respond positively to that ? |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[392] [...] was done in the time of [...] which set up the Republic of Ireland, get the I R A to declare a truce and talk to them and I think [...] |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[393] Hang on. [394] The I R A if they're asked to will? |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) |
[395] They could deliver a truce, they would deliver a truce, and then they should be spoken to. |
| Unknown speaker (HV2PSUNK) | [...] |
| nicky campbell (PS3EE) |
[396] Okay thanks very much indeed that's all we've got time for, thank you. |