| PS3RR | X | m | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RS | X | m | (Neil, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RT | X | m | (Harold, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RU | X | m | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RV | X | f | (Cliff, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RW | X | m | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RX | X | f | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS3RY | X | m | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| J42PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| J42PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| (PS3RR) |
[1] We really are waiting for some key data on how [...] and so on which we shan't know until March so I think that is going to condition our er ... next consideration ... but ... your comment on that. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[2] Very very very briefly Chairman, erm first of all you can see in paragraph two point three and you see the matter that's being erm ... the subject of discussion previously erm ... there wasn't to be an issues report as such, but er Stragg itself the advisory group did feel that it would be useful that er ... er a leaflet be prepared and distributed erm you I don't think Chairman would have seen it, but hot off the presses is being erm with us this morning er an an and only delivered this morning are some copies of th the leaflet that we have now erm prepared er you will have seen that in draft form Chairman and members of Strang will have seen that draft form so er both Stragg members and other members of the Committee if they would like to take a copy away with them, that there are a number here, but they will be er given wide distribution later on. [3] These copies are staple check [laughing] and you are the one which you've gone back for apply [] erm I, I'll [...] with that one. |
| (PS3RR) |
[4] And there's some homework in it. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[5] There is some, there is some homework. [6] Erm prin principally for, for those outside the County Council that is the erm all responses would be very welcome. [7] There er ... erm other er ... matter that er erm I er wanted to mention erm if only to get the word sustainability on to the tape that is being recorded on the [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[8] [giggle] seems that one of th the key areas that we are looking at and er will incorporate in the structure plan is sustainability. [9] That's been er er a matter which has been erm discussed er at some length by Stragg as has the topic of er house building and the ... the problems of er capacity for er new house instruction and other development within the, the Council ... but a number of erm matters er not least of which has been er the departure of two key members of staff during the period er there has er I'm afraid been a degree of slippage and the original programme that we have put to you and which you agreed which we said at the time was ambitious er is already er showing signs of stress and it looks now I'm afraid that it will not be er in the early part of the summer that the structure plan in draft form will be available and ready to be approved for consultation purposes, but towards the end of the summer and er er into the early autumn. [10] Er that is something which is er a matter of great regret, but because of circumstances er unfortunately is the case and something that we must er address. [11] We will do what we can to er speed things and to catch up. |
| (PS3RR) |
[12] Yes, Neil? |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[13] One very quick point, sorry erm ... I don't want to sound as if I feel I can [...] but er I welcome your comment at the beginning the condition be ... be left out on what's going on because I thought this was actually the key function of this committee and I mean I see these are being [...] decision has been taken. [14] Erm I see [...] so I'm not really ... [laughing] [...] [] will make sure that erm ... that we are kept in touch so that we are not so far down the track but they can't be reversed [...] committee as a whole |
| (PS3RR) |
[15] Absolutely. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS3RR) |
[16] Absolutely I was aware that Graham was very anxious to be involved in this process, er for example he wrote me a note and I think other members and it's because of those, of those notes that I was anxious that we should inform them of what we were up to and if you want to share any of the papers or agendas please ask. [17] Er really do value inputs |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[18] Chairman I, yes I, I mean that I |
| (PS3RR) |
[19] or attend |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[20] I understand an and appreciate wh what you're saying and most grateful to you for that, I think wha what you're, Neil is saying is is that with [...] we must make sure the time, that this main strategic planning he has to look at, this very important issue, allows sufficient time for mature consideration |
| (PS3RR) |
[21] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[22] debate and, and possibly change. [23] I i it may not be so, but it may be so |
| (PS3RR) |
[24] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[25] and, and I'm sure that you're aware of that ... feeling amongst all members that you would reflect this in the amount of time available |
| (PS3RR) |
[26] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[27] for that debate and discussion. |
| (PS3RR) |
[28] Very important. [29] ... It's particularly important because I, I think that these er strategic plans aren't being terribly well received in the D O E and they will only succeed if there is er solid agreement to present. [30] ... I think Berkshire had a very rough ride ... and others too ... and they're saying exactly the sorts of things that are being said in this county ... and it may be the last strategic plan on the county too, so it's a very important document. [31] ... Right so we note this report. [32] Thank you. [33] Item eleven one er I have to say that if you want to discuss item eleven two, the Mid Sussex District Local Plan, I will have to er ... [...] I shall have to er ... withdraw and ask er Cliff to chair the meeting. [34] If er if you don't mind. [35] Do, do members want to discuss the Mid Sussex Plan? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[36] Erm i it's ... a very small point it's a question more than anything else erm Chairman, rather than a debate, but th there are one or two obviously important issues there, particularly the highway side and I |
| (PS3RR) |
[37] Well I'm happy to withdraw. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[38] But, but should we deal with the [...] first |
| (PS3RR) |
[39] No problem |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[40] Why don't you take this item. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[41] Right okay, well it [...] I don't know [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[42] I'll go into [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[43] [...] all to do with that one first [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[44] Right, right, right. [45] But I mustn't blot my copy book. [46] [clears throat] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[47] Shall I, shall I start on eleven [...] ? |
| (PS3RR) |
[48] Please |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[49] Chairman, if, if I may and it is just basically to look at the recommendation and wonder you know perhaps if we've got it the right way round er that's all, where we're saying er there are certain things still outstanding wh which we would need to re-relate before er issuing er general conformity notices I understand ... b but we're almost taking that they're going to do that without any doubt, now I don't know maybe there are things not said in this report which are well understood, but [...] and members of [...] are quite happy to accept erm er s some more ... more changes to, to the local plan so that it does conform with ... with the structure plan, but I just wondered whether [...] round the wrong way. [50] Whether we should be saying [...] and saying [...] District Council be requested to amend the local plan as suggested in paragraph two four two nine five and then nu number two would be there adding a few words to ... to the original number one. [51] On confirmation of [...] District Council's agreement a statement of general conformity and in business you don't sort of give your position away, erm [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[52] I, I'm pleased to tell you that the Planning Officer agrees with you. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[53] Oh, oh I [...] |
| (PS3RR) |
[54] I, I certainly certainly from the chair I would agree. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[55] Chairman, may ... [laughing] I'm [] sorry to, to, to question that erm |
| (PS3RR) |
[56] I'm sorry |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[57] Th there, there is a, there is a problem erm in that the invitation from Aida in this case to er issue a statement in general conformity erm confers on, on this committee the opportunity only to withhold that statement if there are elements of plan which significantly fall outside for one reason or other the, the terms of the structure plan and the points that have been mentioned in the er in paragraphs two point four to two point nine in, in ... er ... your officer's views er are not such that the er plan is er unable to be afforded that statement of general conformity. [58] The points in two point four to two point nine are nevertheless important and we would er ... I would strongly recommend that you endorse the erm making of those points to Aida If they then don't take those points on board, you would have the opportunity when the plan is, is finally put on deposit of making a formal objection to the plan on the basis that we disagree with that particular wording, but I have here th th th the strong expectation that Aida will take on board those small points anyway and it is just a matter therefore o of making minor changes, but unfortunately the conformity issue is, is a, is a rather different one whether we are er in er er er as an authority in agreement with what Aida is saying in their plan. |
| (PS3RR) |
[59] Apologize for misleading. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[60] [...] Chairman and I, I still stick to wh what I said that I think that we ought to ... to reverse and, and p put two to number one ... erm er and with the addition of those words, because ... |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[61] I, I, I take all the planning and what the officer is saying, but I mean don't you think it makes more sense from our point of view [...] than we realize. |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[62] Ch Chairman I, I, I, I would agree with Mr that we might er successfully change the order, but we can't er and shouldn't make it a condition of issuing that statement of conformity that Aida have done those things. [63] They may not do them and we could still issue, we would still have to issue the statements of general conformity. [64] There would then be other means however for us to pursue our ... our concerns that haven't ... we know er are moving into a future speculative situation, but if they're not taken up we have other means of pursuing those, but they wouldn't affect the ... the conformity issue. |
| (PS3RR) |
[65] It seems as if it's a legal question I hear from |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[66] Well yes, yes in terms it sounds mos most confusing compared with a straightforward business world but [giggle] if, if, if ... the campaign [...] are saying that it's got to be this way [...] for legal reasons they're not prepared to accept it. |
| (PS3RR) |
[67] That's our advice I'm sorry. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[68] Ch Chairman, I, I, I certainly would er report to John [...] th that is the correct interpretation [...] . |
| (PS3RR) |
[69] Perhaps we could minute Mr 's point, just to make him happy. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[70] Well I, I mean he's being technical here as well Chairman. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[71] I shall be getting a copy of this tape. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[72] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[73] Chairman? |
| (PS3RR) |
[74] Mr . [75] Yes, sorry. |
| Harold (PS3RT) |
[76] Sorry, just er to clarify [...] was happy about er reversing the orders of these, provided we did not amend what is currently present er item one. |
| (PS3RR) |
[77] Yes he's saying a com condition of er general conformity that the general conformity is apparently er met by this er what's being done and I think general conformity, I, I don't know I'm guessing, relates to the housing commitment of a broad strategic equivalent, is that the point? |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[78] Yes Chairman i it relates to the ... the body of the policies in the structure plan and if Aida's plan generally conforms then we must er issue a statement of general conformity er however if there is a, a problem that we've had for example about the wording of the reference to the erm East Worthing access road, then although that it's quite proper for this committee to be concerned about that wording and ultimately possibly even to object to the plan on the basis of the wording, it doesn't affect the extent to which the plan conforms or doesn't conform with the structure plan overall. |
| (PS3RR) |
[79] Does that help? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[80] Y y yes I mean to clear this whole matter up ... Chairman w wo would it be fair if, if I moved perhaps tha that erm ... erm little one should become little two and little two should probably become little one and |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [giggle] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[81] leave it at that? [82] I mean would that satisfy ... [...] |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[83] That, that ... that would be perfectly acceptable. [84] All logical orders. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[85] Er Chairman I'm ... perhaps I could also suggest that we change the word suggested erm ... because that ... i i it, perhaps you are looking for something slightly stronger erm er so it could just say in accordance with paragraphs two four to two nine or the points made in paragraph two point [...] |
| (PS3RR) |
[86] Mm. [87] Right. [88] I am now going into [...] and you're going to take the chair [...] for this [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[89] Well I hope it won't be a ... [laughing] is that alright [] ? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[90] No, it's alright. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[91] Right turning to item eleven [...] two Mid Sussex District Local County. [92] ... That all agreed? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[93] I mean ... yes ... er as I said earlier on it's just a question for ... for ... just a bit more [...] obviously in the readings report th there is ... there is concern naturally [...] with the by-passes [...] in paragraph two five [sigh] I mean I haven't had a chance to sort of looking up yet, and I'd by grateful for County Executive's advice on that and I thought we as a County Council had agreed a line ... erm for a by-pass through the West Sussex ... portion at least. [94] ... Therefore i if we, if he done that then that paragraph would seem to be slightly [...] and the second point was really ... to ask if there was any further update on [whispering going on in background for thirty seconds] the progress in terms of negotiations in Surrey and East Sussex er in terms of this erm particular by-pass and I know that Mr in particular has been concerned with negotiations and Mrs also erm Mrs is not here therefore as Mr could advise me for us o of where we're at really, [whispering going on in background for thirty seconds] so that we fully understand [...] because obviously the ... the line of the by-pass is very important so far as any further development is ... is concerned. [95] So [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[96] [...] er in regard to er ... th the quote there has been no agreement on the line, that refers to the fact that agreement has to be m ... erm come about with the actual erm East Sussex County Council and Surrey County Council and that er although a joint meeting of Planning and Highways what, some two years ago, took a view as to the line, that hasn't actually meant that there is agreement at this stage where the line can be implemented and I would have thought that's what that refers to. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[97] I, I, I can answer that |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[98] Well I, I don't know whether I should make a [...] or [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[99] If I may erm ... we, we, we, we did attend er er er a briefing [...] and myself and James , unfortunately Margaret was unable to be present on that day, although I think she's had a separate briefing ... or there is a separate briefing being proposed. [100] There is a partial line on the map which I think this Council agreed before my time ... but that is not a line which could be implemented because it starts from nowhere and goes to nowhere ... and we are still I believe in, in, in limbo so far as the ... exact route which might be proposed either the northern or the southern end. [101] I didn't want to ... tread on your toes Mr , but I, I gather that, that is the situation I think. |
| (PS3RU) |
[102] That that's just I would have said Chairman anyway I would have probably have taken [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[103] I, I, ... I, if I may go on an and er ... make some other comments on it i is that appropriate or should I ... wait for that ... are we still talking about the by-pass? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[104] Erm ... I mean I was just finding myself expressing the views that er ... given the dramatic change in the composition ... of the County Council since the election, I would have thought something as major as the East Grinstead by-pass would need to be considered by the new council anyway ... and er I think it would be ... perhaps er assuming too much er to believe that the present council would follow the line of the previous council that's only er a personal expression. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[105] If I may come back Mr Chairman an and er express a view on behalf of Darcy . [106] She's very concerned and the present line partial though it be, represents a ... a blight situation on that, on the, on potential er occupants of that line ... and certainly erm ... I find myself more in ... in er agreement with Darcy's views than I do with the other two councillors of East Grinstead, that's not er not secret |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[107] No, no no |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[108] by any manner of means, because they represent the [...] of the town. [109] I find myself rather like the old shell man having to look both ways at once, because part of my division is ... is town and part of it is country and they have very different views about the by-pass ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[110] Yes, could I just ... you know |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[111] Sure |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[112] I mean because obviously this is inflation particularly with the new members who are not involved in ... in all the [laughing] hurly-burly [...] [] those two, two three years ago, but er in fact as I recall it I think it was a Liberal Democrat ... proposal that we should agree this particular line. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[113] [giggle] It was an East Grinstead er |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[114] Mrs |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[115] Er indeed. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[116] And ... and, and I mean all I'd say is I know it's an issue geared to hearts too and this will be explained, so I just [...] before |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[117] And it's not ... not unobserved. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[118] I think you will recall Mr my ... my views on the East Grinstead by-pass ... were not the same as those [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[119] I, I, I'm bitterly disappointed [...] recollection. [120] Erm |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[121] I wonder ... wonder Chairman whether i i in order to, to focus on ... on the erm ... issue that arises as a result of this an and whilst Mr is absolutely right to, to, to question the status of the by-pass and Mr [laughing] has ... has given me the [] ... the answer. [122] What it actually means erm is that er there is unlikely to be a by-pass for some time, but in effect that would be likely to be the case anyway, one because of the cost of the by-pass overall and secondly because of the erm position with regard to other aspects of the roads programme and the level of T S G that we are currently receiving er even if there was an agreed line as of today erm bearing in mind the th the other things that have happened in the roads programme, it still would be unlikely that the by-pass would be er programmed in such a way that it would allow housing or other development to take place in East Grinstead within either the structure plan period or the local plan period and hence the points that then er that the report moves on to erm come into play. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[123] Could I then come to the body of the report, rather than the East Grinstead by-pass, which I, I, I ... I agree is, is pertinent erm I was, I read this ... a couple of times because I was a bit confused about the rather if I may say so convoluted argument that was in it erm I think I understand the argument that the erm is that the Mid Sussex District Council have asked for advice and the recommendation is that advice ... . [124] er on the other hand er ... the arguments inside the er document seem to suggest that a ... a certificate of, of conformo conformalities conformity erm could be issued er within the terms of the, the numbers specified because on the case of the housing the numbers are rather small and in the case of the er business floor space there, they're probably even less significant ... erm and I wondered why that wasn't put in the recommendation. [125] I know the recommendation actually erm does answer the request for advice that was outlined in er two point one and maybe that's why the recommendation is couched as it is. |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[126] We could of, we, could we not have had a statement that er er er erm ... a certificate of conformity could be issued ... or will be issued? |
| Harold (PS3RT) |
[127] Chairman it's er an excellent question an an and I, I, I'm hesitating in giving er an ... an off the cuff answer, but the ... first of all we weren't actually asked to issue a statement of conformity at this stage |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[128] I take that point |
| Harold (PS3RT) |
[129] and it would be wrong for us to consider it in that form. [130] The real er difficulty is that we at this stage don't actually know what's going to be in the local plan and we believe and this is what erm Mid Sussex District Council are suggesting, is that it will be an amalgamation of the current separate local plans which cover their area, but there may well be some changes erm and until we see the thing as a whole we don't know what it will say, moreover erm there may be elements outside the East Grinstead housing and business allocation which erm from another point of view might lead to a withholding of the statement of conformity. [131] So in fact a recommendation was carefully constructed to allow y your committee the opportunity of, of questioning other elements of the plan at the time at which that is put to us. |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[132] I, I, I accept that completely. [133] Thank you. [134] Er Mr ? [135] Yeah, hmm? |
| (PS3RW) |
[136] Thank you Chairman. [137] Just to say that erm we're very keen to see that the Mid Sussex Council has come to the county and asked for guidance and I'm very pleased also with the response that is er proposed back to them. [138] There's tremendous concern within the area erm at the targets that have been set for house building and in particular for er industrial space erm I think office space is now coming back into more of an equilibrium situation, but erm ... I'm very pleased to see that er with these proposals as they stand, we would have no difficulties in approving their, the plan. |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[139] Thank you. [140] Mr ? |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[141] I'm not commenting ... still not commenting on local issues, but I mean ... I quite see that [...] acceptable to Mid Sussex and I'm not ... doubting the recommendation but erm ... we've actually sixty three thousand [...] right sixty three thousand square metres [...] and the other ... councils took the attitude that we would be nowhere near achieving structure plan [...] and ... I find myself [...] absolutely clearly what happened in other [...] comebacks they were only going to produce three, two thirds or three quarters of your [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[142] It is an important Chairman and a very good question and erm, but there isn't a ... straightforward answer that would apply to every situation. [143] Th the reality is that elsewhere in West Sussex erm the business allocations are erm reasonably generous or indeed slightly over generous and er therefore er overall the concern i is very much reduced erm but it might also be just worth mentioning that erm ... although ... er there is clearly an opportunity for this committee, this planning authority, the strategic planning authority to, to question figures of this nature and to challenge local plans if they are significantly adrift erm that has to be done in the context of the ... the local plan enquiry by er in the form of an objection almost and past experience has been that the inspectors and the Secretary of State have allowed a certain amount of leeway depending on the erm proportional er deviation from erm th the figures that were in the structure plan and depending on what is happening elsewhere and on the state of the economy and whilst ... it would be ... something which erm ... it was possible to prepare a case for erm i it is o on, on the balance of erm er the ... various things that are, that are taking place in West Sussex that the recommendation i is, is put to you that and it seems to be the reasonable course of action, particularly bearing in mind the downturn in, in er erm ... the er business activity and the er amount of developments taking place. [144] It seems to be the reasonable approach to adopt, although it will vary from time to time and from place to place and it is a question of ... of balancing a number of factors. |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[145] Well Mrs wants to come in and then [...] |
| (PS3RX) |
[146] Chairman, er if I might I was going to refer again to the care carefully worded recommendation which doesn't actually mention the level of erm [...] it simply mentions erm er a modest extent of under provision because clearly it says elsewhere in the report at two ten that it's not yet known whether there will be opportunities elsewhere, so that's a particular shortfall in provision to be made up. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[147] I would feel very happy that there was an under, under provision if I, if I refer to the agenda item twelve, where it says if I read it right that there is twenty three point six percent industrial floor space unoccupied at present and I would have thought it was crazy to start er erm coming up and building even more cos it will just put that figure up will it not? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[148] This is a wrong [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[149] Yeah but that's a quarter of that, that's a quarter unoccupied. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[150] I mean I do actually [...] that we talk a lot about sustainability [...] floor space [...] . [151] Anyway, I don't want to make a big issue about this, I just want to ask [...] . |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[152] Can we approve recommendation then? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[153] We do. |
| Cliff (PS3RV) |
[154] Thank you. [155] We'll go and retrieve the Chairman. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[156] Oh are you gonna do it? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] ... [long pause as people are changing seats and whispering in background] |
| (PS3RR) |
[157] D do we now move on to item twelve the General Report? [158] I've received notice that Neil wishes to er raise ... er er a matter which concerns two parts of this report. [159] Neil? |
| Neil (PS3RS) |
[160] Really I think [...] erm there are just two four and two six which I'm just interested in [...] and the whole question I find very difficult to erm ... [...] I mean it's really just a question as the these are mentioned as items [...] left hanging in the air. [161] [...] ... , rustling of papers in background and whispering) |
| (PS3RR) |
[162] I think it's fair to say that [...] know more about it than I do, but there has been a High Court case recently which has, seems to have er torpedoed the er prospect of er ... including affordable housing in new housing deals, so I'm informed. |
| (PS3RX) |
[163] You know more about it than I do Chairman. [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[164] Well I, I took the liberty of ... the Lord Lieutenant's appointed me to something called the Sussex Rural Options Land Bank and I brought you a copy of the leaflet, having [...] notice of your question and I did ask ... the officer who deals with this in the Sussex Rural Community Council if he could give me the latest score on [...] housing I thought that the news was bad from what he had said, but having said that, I mean every effort is being made to deal with the issues you raise in this council which is now ... chaired by Peter [...] . [165] ... Anyway erm I think we totally support the thrust of what you're asking about and I was asked to make a special appeal to County Council to see whether they could assist with this recently established Rural Options Land Bank, the purpose of which is rather extraordinary, but I mean it is defined landowners who have a philanthropic bent to provide the land to do something about the very problem you've raised. [166] So far there are twenty sites being investigated. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[167] I mean one of the problems [...] ... and also perhaps losing benefit of [...] housing [...] . [168] I mean I personally think that [...] . [169] So it seems to be a sort of ... a bit of an insoluble problem, but it ... er I, I just [...] . |
| (PS3RR) |
[170] I've just read the enquiry and the public dealing with these issues [...] and the D O E has rejected rentable housing as a solution to affordable housing. [171] I think I'm right in saying that. |
| (PS3RX) |
[172] I, I, I think Chairman that on the, the case to which you refer as, as I recollect it was very much on the specific wording of the er restriction which erm was found to fail, because it applied to a number of houses and not to a specific property and er clearly care will have to be given by the districts that happens in imposing conditions to make sure that it will erm appertain to each individual property within a development so that the occupancy condition can be ... can be informed. |
| (PS3RR) |
[173] I think we can't do justice to the point you've raised in the time at our disposal, but it is a very important issue. [174] I have one suggestion,wh whether you would like to pursue the matter further, but I did ask Frederick [...] whether he could brief you more fully. [175] He is over in Lewes unfortunately, but he did offer so to do, er which I think would ... you know put you in a more informed position to pursue the matter with this committee. [176] I shall certainly do what I can to advance the matter, but I hesitate to say what about the paper, because I don't think it is an easy thing to cover in a paper. [177] Perhaps we have to get it into the erm ... strategy agenda again I mean we ... we have had a go at it, but probably inadequately. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[178] Chairman can I ... er suggest to [...] these results of course over a period ... [...] and I'd like to see [...] ... |
| (PS3RR) |
[179] I'm pessimistic myself. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[180] I, I think Chairman that as, as we come out of the recession an and ... th that the overall erm level er quantity of development taking place increases, then we are almost bound to see perhaps more affordable housing erm in absolute terms, although I don't see any opportunity of there being a ... a major hiccup in proportional terms, so I, I, like you, I think I remain er pessimistic er regarding the, the, the overview, although we might see er a turning up of the er of the graph having been bumping along the bottom for a little time a little while. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[181] Yes, thank you Chairman. [182] Obviously it is a very involved complex subject, but the fact is the situation is changing day by day. [183] Er most of the houses that are provided [...] rent are provided by local authorities, but there again you've got a very serious change in situation ... when the government are looking to privatize council houses. [184] I mean we can't go into the private market and expect them or asking them to provide [...] houses erm affordable houses as I say the question is what's an affordable house, who's got the money to buy the house I would presume, but obviously we know the situation is it's the lower rent of market, the lower income groups and the unemployed that are suffering very much [...] reasonable accommodation at a rent or at a price they can afford ... and I reckon this is what ... hopefully the government was after to say whether we'll put in our policy and hope that we can get things [...] . [185] Unfortunately they say one thing, but they do exactly the opposite and whereas local authorities are in a position to ... in the main to provide rental accommodation, the government are stopping them. [186] So I think you know it is a subject that we should, probably should go on to, to discuss it in more detail, but I'm really concerned because I think the policies [...] government [...] authorities were even accepting. [187] I'm not gonna ask for the problems of the ... homeless people that we've got in this country [...] . |
| (PS3RR) |
[188] I have to say there was one piece information I picked up yesterday asking and we're talking about the rural areas I think in this discussion, the rural viability, rather then er ... urban. [189] I was told that the money that was threatened for housing associations which was an important element in structure, the government has in fact included it in the forthcoming budget, so that is encouraging, that aspect of it. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[190] I think Chairman [...] housing association, because the demand was greater [...] . |
| (PS3RR) |
[191] Well the only encouraging initiative that I can speak of for West Sussex is the establishment of the Rural Options Land Bank and er I've undertaken to try and get some county commitment to this and that means some land. [192] I can't see it happening, I mean I've already tried out one idea which hasn't run very fast ... but if we were solidly behind that, that would be very important for this initiative, we as a county. [193] So I understand it will encourage others and there are some very wealthy landowners for whom this may not ... be a great strain on their resources. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[194] Erm sorry, thank you Chairman. [195] Basically erm I agree with what you say but that the County Council itself of course is ... a landowner of erm some quite attractive erm areas of land that could be used for below cost housing, but the problem in the past has been that they always had to sell erm at the ... market price. |
| (PS3RR) |
[196] Precisely. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[197] Whereas [...] could be lifted if the County Council itself would become erm a benevolent donor, I'm sure that [...] problems of low cost housing throughout the county. |
| (PS3RR) |
[198] I'm not asking that it transfer its estate, I'm asking that it should make a contribution ... because it will then show that we're committed to this very important initiative. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] ... |
| (PS3RR) |
[199] If you want to get a grasp of what is happening in West Sussex, there is a useful one-page summary in the Housing ... and Environment the Housing Report which came to us last, at the last meeting. [200] It er has about a list of about thirty erm ... affordable housing [...] . [201] ... And I mentioned at the last meeting ... I think ... what has actually been said in the erm [...] meeting ... I could repeat that, but I mean it confirms exactly what you're saying. [202] Available evidence confirms ... sorry first of all [...] the increase in the provision of affordable dwellings identified by this monitoring survey er is not being maintained, so there is a national problem [...] South East regional problem [...] field and in our own er monitoring report ... on ... housing development and population change we say four point seven two ... available evidence confirms the existence of a social housing problem in West Sussex and surveys studies suggest it is significant and that table on page forty [...] items, gives you the precise er application [...] position ... erm ... it is I think erm ... just [...] . [203] ... I think that deals with the General Report and now we move into part |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[204] No, no, no, no thirteen, thirteen [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[205] [...] approve that one Chairman. |
| (PS3RR) |
[206] Thank you. [207] Er |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS3RR) |
[208] [...] time yes. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[209] Yeah, sorry Chairman I must |
| (PS3RR) |
[210] We approved that haven't we? |
| (PS3RX) |
[211] No, no. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[212] Fourteen two, erm the great problem is it's easier to get [...] if an afternoon meeting can finish at a reasonable time, then I can probably [...] but erm I think if you, if you're looking at the clock when [...] home in the evening for a number of reasons it might be [...] then I would [...] this and unless we can sort of put a restricted time on the agenda which is impossible, I can imagine coming down here at two o'clock for the meeting. [213] You see when committees are meeting at two o'clock usually have a much shorter agenda than this committee [...] discussion but to enable to this committee and to do its job properly, I would think we'd be looking where possible to be able to discuss items properly and to get ... start at a reasonable time like we do [...] . |
| (PS3RR) |
[214] Mr ? |
| (PS3RY) |
[215] [...] it seems to me that often, especially with this committee er start at half ten we get to about half twelve and everyone starts shuffling and think of their lunch and often ... not so much recently, but in, in, in, over the last five years there have been issues I think [...] ... it almost left you on [...] because it was so close to lunch, er and people didn't then want to have to break for an hour, hour and a half and then come back, whereas if you start at two fifteen erm [sigh] I think it's easier to go on till half four, five [...] seems to be to go to this psychological one o'clock barrier, seems to er upset people greatly [...] agitation and er their argument is th th that er that [...] in the afternoon |
| (PS3RR) |
[216] Do other members have a view on this? |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[217] Could I agree with that can I also suggest that if that happens [...] because erm also at some of these seminars are impossible [...] with meetings because [...] we can, we can try and concentrate on ... on days where, where [...] ready would actually help the attendance because er |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[218] On the applications that's quite interesting because the reason the applications are moved to separate days was because we can work ... we're having to [...] lunch and then make [...] again |
| (PS3RR) |
[219] We're, we're, we're using the application [...] for doing the Stragg meeting now, we're having amend on ... normally ... I think. [220] Well there doesn't seem to be |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[221] Mr Chairman I, I would support the proposal that it's moved to the afternoon |
| (PS3RR) |
[222] Afternoon |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[223] on the basis of laziness. |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[224] I hear, I, I, I think there is a tendency with the County Council but as I discovered as Chairman of Highways [clears throat] that members [clears throat] want to take a greater interest and to have a greater say on the items on the agenda now planning is ... is not a [...] controversial as, as say highway items, but nevertheless I think there will be times and there will be agendas which will require a great deal of discussion on the individual items ... and I'm also a great believer [clears throat] bearing in mind [...] comments [...] if it ain't broke, don't bend it. [225] Now it seems to me I accept difficulties f for, for some people, but on the whole it's working quite well and to shuffle it all round again I think would irritate a large number of members and we're irritated by the changes that you made earlier on ... and I wouldn't wish to bring any [...] down on your ... your head [...] for the [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[226] so I'm in favour of leaving things as they are Chairman, er I think you, you, you've done enough, you've caused enough trouble already! |
| (PS3RR) |
[227] [laugh] I it's, it's very hard when you, when you've, when you're grinding an axe to get the true mood of the meeting. [228] Could I just have a small poll, those who would like to er have S Q as they call it, status quo? [229] ... That's five |
| Unknown speaker (J42PSUNK) |
[230] Six. |
| (PS3RR) |
[231] Six ... and moving it to the afternoon ... yes, it's er a nice question. [232] I think we shall just on the margin have to leave it as it is. [233] Thank you very much for that. [234] Now part two. [235] Can we approve that, is there any problem at all? [236] I must just quickly stress on looking at it very closely last night that only one was in West Sussex. |
| (PS3RX) |
[237] Erm Chairman if |
| (PS3RR) |
[238] There's nothing we can do about that. |
| (PS3RX) |
[239] Sorry Chairman. [240] I if I might say erm after further reviews the County Treasurer has advised that erm he does not need to impose a limit erm i it's the last sentence in paragraph four. |
| (PS3RR) |
[241] Right, thank you. [242] ... That one [...] is East Sussex for your information [...] . [243] ... So we accept that [...] Thank you very much and I'm grateful to you, I'm sorry I've gone [...] but it was that general question rightly raised by [...] |