| PS3YR | Ag4 | m | (mr e barnett, age 50+, department of the environment adjudicator, Chairperson.) unspecified |
| PS3YS | Ag2 | m | (mr mills, age 30+, legal representative) unspecified |
| PS3YT | Ag3 | m | (mr g arrowsmith, age 40+, solicitor) unspecified |
| PS3YU | Ag4 | m | (mr w terry byrne, age 50+, legal representative, for local Residents' Association) unspecified |
| PS3YV | Ag2 | m | (mr d allenby, age 30+, legal representative, for Harrogate Borough Council) unspecified |
| PS3YW | Ag3 | f | (d whittaker, age 40+, senior department of the environment inspector) unspecified |
| PS3YX | X | m | (mr alan williams, age unknown, legal representative, for North Yorkshire County Council.) unspecified |
| J9UPSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| J9UPSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[1] The item or the issue for discussion this afternoon is [reading] Is there a need for an A fifty nine, A sixty one, Harrogate relief road? [2] [] . [3] Er and I have to remind you that the panel has to be concerned primarily with the need. [4] Erm but we'll see how you go in presenting your cases. [5] But I don't really want you to stray into detail which is not necessarily within our remit to er to consider. [6] I propose that Mr will make the opening statement and then I'll turn to Mr and then Mr are you speaking on behalf of the Residents' Association? [7] Thank you. [8] Er and then if you will come in after Mr . [9] I might say that the members of the panel have actually read all your submissions, so don't feel obliged to go through them word for word in the same way as for example, you might be presenting a proof at a planning enquiry. [10] I want really if if if if you would, to point up the major issues, the major points as you see them. [11] Mr sorry [...] Mr ? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[12] Right er thank you sir. [13] Perhaps if I start by saying that er I have er produced a one page summary which wasn't with my er initial statements, which I passed to Mr and to Mr , but if I could er pass copies of that to yourself and to the panel. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[14] Wh whilst that's being done, can I just add that don't feel inhibited ab I want you to make your best case, but I mean you know, if if you can make it in five minutes instead of half an hour then nothing will be lost in that. [15] And the other thing is that once we actually get into the discussion session, if you want to ask a question or make a point, then if you just put your name board up on end then I c I'll see whether you want you know, who wants to speak. [16] And would you also please make sure you give your name at the time you speak and who you represent because the the the matter is being recorded and we want to make sure we know who has said what at what time. [17] Mr . |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[18] Right thank you. [19] Perhaps sir if I just just refer to er it's about a page if read out the er the the summary of my statement. [20] Since the decision of the County Council in March nineteen eighty one, to promote a Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass, the Council have investigated ways of improving the flow of traffic through the two communities. [21] Initially the Council investigated traffic management measures to complement the southern bypass. [22] Er improvement schemes and measures were identified and have been implemented over a period of time. [23] There are still others yet to to complete. [24] The Council however concluded that the scope for improving traffic flows in the two communities, even with a southern bypass, was limited. [25] And the solution lay in the provision of further relief roads. [26] Route options for relief roads to the west of Harrogate and to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough, were assessed. [27] Public consultation on the need for A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, and on specific routes, has been undertaken. [28] These showed substantial public support for the need for the relief roads, and the preferred routes which have subsequently been selected. [29] The A fifty nine and A sixty one both for part of the primary network which is a national network designated by the Department of Transport for the movement of long distance traffic, including the movement of heavy commercial vehicles. [30] In recognition of the problems caused as a result of these routes passing through the urban areas of Harrogate and Knaresborough, the County Council has designated both roads as key routes for improvement in both the structure plan and the T P P which is the Transport Policy and Programs document of the County Council. [31] Traffic flows on both routes are in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day, giving rise to severe problems of congestion at peak times, a high degree of severance of both communities, and major road safety problems. [32] The northern relief road would reduce traffic flows by between twenty and thirty percent on the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough. [33] The western relief road would reduce traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty percent to the north and south of the town centre. [34] Measures to increase further the transfer of traffic to the relief roads will be investigated as scheme design progresses. [35] There will be substantial road safety benefits as a result of the transfer of traffic to the relief roads with anticipated savings of twenty nine injury accidents per a per annum on the A fifty nine and seventeen per annum on the A sixty one. [36] The relief roads both offer substantial savings in journey times and together with the road safety benefits, represent and excellent rate of return as measured by the Department of Transport's eco economic assessment program [...] . [37] It is accepted that there will be environmental costs as a result of the construction of the relief roads and these have been the subject of extensive investigations. [38] These costs have been weighed against the environmental, traffic, road safety and economic benefits of the scheme using the Department of Transport's manual of environmental appraisal for public consultation. [39] Based on these assessments, the proposals have the support of not only the County Council and the Borough Council, but also the general public. [40] Both relief roads have been included as a firm commitment in the County Council's forward capital program, with a planned start of construction for the northern relief road and Killinghall bypass in nineteen ninety eight. [41] And the western relief road in the year two thousand. [42] The individual schemes will need to be taken through the statutory planning process which will give the opportunity for further debate on the details of the route, construction standards and landscaping measures. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[43] Thank you Mr . [44] Mr ? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[45] Thank you sir. [46] Er I'd like to make two statements if if I may, it's easier for me. [47] The first one on behalf of Parish Council and then the second one on behalf of Residents' Association. [48] First of all for [...] Parish Council. [49] Taken in conjunction the written statement and the key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A fifty nine relief road, passing to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough. [50] The Parish Council refer to this as an outer northern relief road. [51] The specific route being investigated by the County Council is a modification of the blue route put forward in a consultation exercise at the beginning of nineteen seventy nine. [52] The Parish Council do not consider that there is any alternative outer northern route which would produce a significantly better balance of costs and benefits. [53] Taking the blue route as an example, an outer northern route would achieve limited traffic benefits on the A fifty nine and A six six one. [54] The figures produced by the County Surveyor in a September nineteen ninety one committee report, show anticipated traffic changes at six points on these roads as they pass through Harrogate and Knaresborough. [55] These are reductions of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. [56] Reductions of this scale are unlikely to bring significant environmental benefit. [57] The County Council's own environmental consultants reported that outer northern routes passed through a mixture of urban fringe landscape north of Harrogate, and some of the highest quality countryside around the two towns, along the Nidd Gorge. [58] The impact of the routes on the wider landscape is emphasized as for western routes, by varying landforms exposing many distant views. [59] There would appear to by no unobtrusive way of crossing the River Nidd. [60] O M two, subsequently to become the blue route, offers a less damaging solution than O M one which would cut through the heart of the Nidd Gorge, creating a major environmental conflict. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[61] As with the western routes, few properties would be directly affected by routes. [62] Intrusion would be a more general lessening of landscape quality over a wide area. [63] The parish council are broadly in agreement with the consultants findings, The parish council do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of an outer northern route, outweighs the net environmental harm. [64] It is recognized that the construction of an outer northern route was favoured by the respondents to an nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. [65] However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. [66] In addition, the leaflet on which the public response was based, did not adequately highlight the difference in effectiveness between an outer northern route and the other routes on which views were sought. [67] At an early stage the County Council rejected all the inner northern routes, despite the recommendation of the County Surveyor and the County Planning Officer, I have at this point said that the Harrogate Borough Council erm h had also recommended that the inner northern routes be retained for investigation. [68] I said that in my summary. [69] Erm I now accept that that was a misreading of Harrogate District Council's resolution which was rather more ambiguous than I have represented it here. [70] An inner northern route would have been about twice as successful in relieving traffic on existing roads and would have produced fifty five percent more economic benefits. [71] The County Council's environmental consultants had said of the inner northern routes, rather than damaging an irrepr irreplaceable sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. [72] In the light of the advice from their own officers and consultants, the Council decision to reject all inner northern routes, throws doubt on the decision making process which led them to support an outer northern route. [73] There has been no technical report which attempts to weigh the economic and environmental costs and benefits of the various options and certainly no technical report which concluded by recommending in favour of an outer northern route. [74] The Parish Council consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford an outer northern route the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. [75] Accordingly, the Parish Council requests the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A fifty nine relief road to the north of Knaresborough. [76] I'll now go on with my statement for panel residents. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[77] Yes please. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[78] Thank you. [79] ... Taken in conjunction with the written statement and key diagram,tak taken in conjunction the re the written statement and key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. [80] The County Council have investigated several routes to the west of Harrogate. [81] According to the County Council's published figures, the most successful of these would only succeed in releasing reducing traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty one percent. [82] A reduction of this scale would be likely to achieve only slight environmental relief. [83] The scale of relief that would actually be achieved by a western route is queried on a number of grounds. [84] If these doubts are justified, the eventual scale of relief may be even less than the slight relief implied by the County Council's projection. [85] The County Council's environmental consultants reported that western routes pass through some of the most attractive countryside around Harrogate. [86] The ridge and valley nature of the landform to the west of Harrogate would make all routes difficult to integrate visually. [87] All the routes would therefore be prominent in the landscape creating a lesser or greater degree of visual intrusion across a wide area. [88] In time, with large scale mounding and excess extensive planting, routes could be integrated to a certain extent, but where valleys are crossed at right angles by bridges or embankments, the visual result will always be alien to the landscape. [89] It is the ridge and valley nature of the landform around Harrogate that the draft local plan considers so important to maintain because of its contribution to the special landscape character of Harrogate. [90] The Residents' Association are broadly in agreement with these findings, however they consider that the western routes have other environmental disadvantages which are detailed in my full statement and its appendices. [91] The Residents' Association do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of a western relief road outweighs the net environmental harm. [92] It is recognized that the construction of a western relief road was favoured by the respondents to a nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. [93] However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. [94] The consultation leaflet was slanted in a way er which moved the response towards support for the proposed relief roads. [95] Moreover it is unlikely that respondents would have either the time or experience to make a thorough appraisal of the information presented in the leaflet. [96] In particular most people will be unused to the assessing the impact of percentage changes in traffic on existing roads or of weighing them against the environmental costs of the new road. [97] Er I would also point out that erm even though there was a respectable response to the public consultation exercise, I think the number of respondents in total only represented something like seventeen percent of the number of households in the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. [98] When the County Planning Committee considered the western relief road on the third of March nineteen ninety two, they resolved that a western relief road for Harrogate was environmentally unacceptable, that the Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass used in conjunction with the proposed A one motorway should be seen as the preferred route for north bound traffic originating to the south of Harrogate, and that the ultimate selection and implementation of a relief road for Harrogate and Knaresborough should be part of a package of measures for solving the problem of urban congestion and improving the quality of the urban environment. [99] The committee's subsequent decision to include policy T seven in the structure plan, appears to have been taken without debate and without formal recognition that it's inclusion conflicted with their earlier er decision. [100] Er the Residents' Association erm feel that this examination in public is not the right forum to erm answer a question which has never properly been asked erm at the County Council. [101] Erm and and they do not consider that the full testing and evaluation erm o of the environmental harm as against the claimed highway benefit, has properly taken place. [102] The association er also consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford er a relief road a western relief road, the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. [103] According they request the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. [104] Thank you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[105] Thank you Mr . [106] Mr |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[107] I'll I'll be as brief as I can because some of the ground I'll be covering will be the same as Mr 's. [108] Erm first of all the one we would er make is the question of the need for it as a bypass or as a through traffic route. [109] The southern bypass and the A fifty nine link to the A one already supply that, as recommended in fact by the County Planning Committee to the Highways and Transport Committee in May ninety two. [110] And we've brought additional evidence to support that [...] today. [111] Not forsaking that, even if we have a subsequent northern relief road, there would be a second choice for them to use the A sixty one continuing to Ripon. [112] It would also be our contention that there should not be an attempt to direct traffic er in a northerly direction onto the A sixty one itself, beyond Killinghall because it is a particularly hazardous road with considerable bends on and I would be inclined to think it was far safer to direct them to the A one via the A fifty nine and southern bypass. [113] And make them journey from Killinghall towards Ripon. [114] The N Y C C in their assessment do not we believe have taken into account the severe environmental damage which any western relief road would impose on the landscape. [115] And I hope we can come into that [...] . [116] On the question of the figures, we have some doubts of the assessments made [...] which were done prior of course to the actual opening of the southern bypass and therefore [...] what would happen when it did happen. [117] Er thirdly we believe that if in fact this western relief opens, there will be considerably more pressure on some of the existing roads which are not designed to take it, particularly the B six one six two. [118] Which would in fact join this er western relief road and which is already heavily congested, it's the main part of one of our presentations to you. [119] Or the environmental damage [...] . [120] There does not appear to have been an account taken of the of the factors that may reduce traffic on the A sixty one er and ways of ameliorating the current problems on the road which are not just a question of the volumes, but in fact the timescale it takes in fact to clear that road in the mornings. [121] And we're really primarily talking of the morning problems or the e the evening problems. [122] And as far as we know there's no been no account been taken that er the subsequent development that is likely to take place on any of these roads, which is clearly implied in some of that statements, of the consequent traffic that that would generate in itself. [123] And there appears appears to be no evidence of er these figures in their in their presentation. [124] Er that concludes ours at this moment Mr . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[125] Thank you Mr . [126] Mr , do you want to say anything at this stage ? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[127] Yes just er just a few brief words chairman. [128] David , Harrogate Borough Council. [129] Erm I think if I could start by explaining the Borough Council's position on this matter and that's that the Borough Council is committed to the concept of an orbital road system around Harrogate and Knaresborough and that should be as part of a balanced transportation package for the area. [130] Notwithstanding that position, the Council clearly had a number of reservations about the design, alignment and environmental impact of of a western relief road and we've asked the County Council to pursue its proposals for a western relief road on the basis of a single carriageway all-purpose road, and to give further consideration to ways in which environmental concerns can be ameliorated. [131] We feel that er the A fifty nine A sixty one Harrogate relief road schemes are properly included in the structure plan alteration, as they do accord with the advice contained in P P G's twelve and and draft P P G thirteen. [132] And the Borough Council considers that the need for the new roads has been fully justified as set out in the County Council's [...] assessment. [133] The Borough Council's case on the needs issue can be summarized by erm the following points. [134] Firstly erm there is significant traffic and environmental problems er being experienced along the A fifty nine and the A sixty one routes in Harrogate and Knaresborough. [135] These high volumes of traffic pass through densely built up areas often of high environmental quality and this results in congestion, delay and road safety problems. [136] Importantly they also adversely affect levels of amenity in both residential and commercial areas. [137] The scope of tackling these problems, along the existing routes is extremely limited due to physical and and environmental constraints. [138] Particularly the existence of conservation areas, listed buildings and the impositions of the stray act. [139] And the Borough Council as agents for the County Council has done what they can to to offset problems and the scope for further measures is limited. [140] We feel that the prospect is for for worsening conditions, particularly in view of the level of traffic growth predicted. [141] The real solution therefore is to constri construct an orbital relief road system so as to reduce traffic flows in the towns and to provide scope for implementation of a balanced package of transportation measures within the urban area. [142] And finally erm I'd like to emphasize that the case for relief roads in in and around Harrogate and Knaresborough is not development led. [143] Nor is it the case that large scale development will inevitably follow erm construction of those roads. [144] Simply that erm the new roads will remove the constraint of erm access, poor access from sites which may otherwise be suitable for development in in planning terms. [145] Thank you chairman. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[146] Thank you. [147] Mr , just a just a general point. [148] Er in your fuller statement you talk about the A fifty nine as being the only major trans-Pennine route to North Yorkshire. [149] I think to a certain extent that might be literally true, but the northern part of the county, you've got linkages into the A sixty six haven't you, Scotch Corner and [...] to the west and you've also got linkages here into the Wharfe Valley and up through to Skipton again and further south you can link into the M sixty two can't you, as trans-pennine [...] . [150] How do you see the A fifty nine functioning as a strategic erm east west route across the county. [151] For example linking York, Harrogate and beyond? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[152] Well in terms of er in terms of that particular corridor, clearly that is the the major er route across the county between York, across to Scarborough on the east coast, York, Harrogate and across to Lancashire. [153] Er clearly there are other routes further south but er er in terms of traffic er going to and from [...] east west axis in in North Yorkshire, that is the er major route. [154] Erm the emphasis really on that has been highlighted in the Department of Transport's own recent consultation document earlier this year where they looked at er trans-pennine routes right from from Derbyshire up to the er the A sixty six er looking at ways to relieve the pressure on the M sixty two where traffic flows have been in have increased dramatically over the last few years. [155] There are already proposals er to widen sections of the M sixty two to four lanes. [156] Er the Department's consultants identified that that wouldn't be sufficient to cope with traffic flows on the M sixty two er and indeed suggested as as an option er that traffic a new a new route could be created er along from the M sixty five at [...] , the A fifty six and A fifty nine to Skipton, er and then pointed a red arrow in the direction of the A fifty nine across to the A one. [157] And further further discussions of with them have er has b it's clear that that is er or the proposal [...] improvement of the A fifty nine. [158] Now the County Council is concerned about that in terms of a major improvement of the A fifty nine, er from an environmental point of view particularly through the national park. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[159] Yeah. [160] So the A fifty nine well let me put it let me put another question, does the A sixty one ... serve a similar function to the A fifty nine? [161] If by definition of what you've said, the A fifty nine is a major cross county link, does the A sixty one serve the same function? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[162] Well clearly it serves a different function from the from the A fifty nine erm in terms of er its role, then er it is a different role, I would accept that in that there are other parallel routes er more closely at hand, clearly the A one which is to be improved to to motorway standard. [163] Er so it is a different role than the A fifty nine, it is a different er competing routes if you like, but nevertheless it's still a key er l strategic link in the County Council's or in the North Yorkshire's highway network and has been identified as such, both in the structure plan er and also in er the transport policies and program document which is reviewed annually by the County Council. [164] Er it is it has got problems as has already been referred to earlier in that it has a very poor accident record as well as well as passing through Harrogate, it has a a poor accident record to the north of Harrogate. [165] Er we would like to see that improved, indeed part of the proposals for er these schemes before us today, we have taken the opportunity for Killinghall of extending that original close in bypass to bypass sections indeed some of the poorest sections of the A sixty one, to the north of Killinghall where we have a very bad accident record, those will be bypassed by the continuation of this scheme north of Killinghall. [166] Er we're just recently started the construction of the Ripon bypass which is the other er problem on the A sixty one on in North Yorkshire. [167] So completion of this scheme, the western relief road would complete er the improvements, together with improvements between Killinghall and er and Ripon w would improve complete the improvance of the A sixty one as a key strategic [...] in the County's network |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[168] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[169] to complement the A one. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[170] Can for the purpose of continuing the discussion, can we concentrate I think on the A fifty nine corr otherwise we shall get slightly cross threaded here. [171] Can we concentrate on the A fifty nine? |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[172] Can I ask if everyone sitting around the table has now or has had access to plan policy guidance note number twelve? |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[173] Yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[174] A copy is coming at the relevant bit er for those who don't have it. [175] ... I should say that the markings on the copy you're receiving are mine, they were not made in the context of this discussion. [176] The reason I draw attention to this guidance is that it draws what I think is a crucial distinction for our purposes here today, between the need to assess at the structure plan level the need for a road proposal and in paragraph five thirty one, a clear statement there that consideration of environmental impacts in relation to where the road goes, is a matter for the local plan. [177] That said, I appreciate the force of the points Mr has been making. [178] ... Can I ask Mr , leaving aside the question of where it is, do you accept that there is a need for an improvement of the A fifty nine? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[179] Yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[180] I'm sorry I have to ask you to say who you are before you speak. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[181] Oh sorry. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[182] Otherwise our records will get a bit confused. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[183] George . [184] The answer to your question is, yes I do accept that there is a need for an improvement to A fifty nine. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[185] Do you think that improvement could be made along the line of the existing road? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[186] No. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[187] Thank you. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[188] May I expound on my answer? [189] Er |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[190] Don't don't feel constrained to yes or no. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[191] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[192] This is your this is your big chance. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[193] I ... I think that er what has been known as an inner northern bypass, that is a road which passes between Harrogate and Knaresborough, could act as a very effective relief road for the A fifty nine. [194] I believe it would meet the need which Mr has quite properly identified. [195] The reason that Scotton Parish Council are opposed to a road of the type shown in the key diagram, is that they do not consider and I do not consider that a road in that position, going to the north of Knaresborough, could effectively meet that need to relieve the A fifty nine. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[196] Could I ask you why not? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[197] Certainly. [198] Because ... there are two elements which make the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough such a busy road, one is local traffic, either having a destination in Harrogate or Knaresborough, or going between various parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough. [199] That's one component. [200] The other component is genuinely bypassable traffic which has both its origin and destination outside the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. [201] Now that genuinely bypassable traffic is a minority of the total traffic on the A fifty nine system. [202] If you build a relief road which is fairly tightly in to the built up area, that relief road will cater for both the long distance bypassable traffic and the local traffic. [203] This was shown in the County Council's own analyses in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one which showed that an inner northern bypass would be very successful. [204] Er in relieving er existing congestion on the A fifty nine. [205] If one built a road a lot further out which is the case with the road shown in the structure plan key diagram, use of that road would represent a major diversion for local traffic, which would therefore be much less likely to use it. [206] And again this isn't my opinion, it is something that is demonstrated by the traffic predictions which have been produced by the County Council. [207] They show that er an outer northern route, through Harrogate itself, on most stretches of road, would take less than twenty percent of traffic from the existing road. [208] It is true that on other parts of the A fifty nine system, particularly through Knaresborough, er the new road the outer northern bypass could take closer to thirty percent off the existing A fifty nine, but the traffic flows on that part of the A fifty nine are very much lower, so there is much less need, much less environmental need for a bypass there er a relief road I should say, there in the first place. [209] So in summary, I m in my view, the reason why an outer northern bypass is much less successful in relieving the A fifty nine, is that it would be unattractive to the local traffic. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[210] You mean local traffic that wishes to get into the centre of Harrogate or into Knaresborough. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[211] Local traffic I use the term local traffic to mean traffic that's coming outside from outside Harrogate and Knaresborough and having a destination anywhere in Harrogate and Knaresborough, traffic which has an origin in Harrogate and Knaresborough and is going to a destination outside or traffic which has an origin and destination within Harrogate and Knaresborough. [212] I call all that sort of traffic, local traffic, and I think that the outer northern route is less well equipped to deal with those kinds of traffic. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[213] Thank you Mr . [214] Mr can I come back to you and in light of what Mr has said, |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[215] Mm. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[216] your A fifty nine relief road proposal pursues two functions doesn't it? [217] One is to try and pick up bypassable traffic and take it away from Harrogate and Knaresborough. [218] Traffic which is |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[219] Yes that's correct. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[220] essentially going east west or west east |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[221] It has no has no business in [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[222] has no business in the urban area. [223] And you also see the other function of the relief road as a means of distributing local traffic er around the fringe of Harrogate er and trying to push it onto other radials to get into the town centre. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[224] As part of |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[225] In other words, distribute that traffic around the network. [226] Now that element of traffic as I read your figures, is is quite a considerable proportion of the well you're talking about roughly twenty thousand P C Us a day? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[227] Well talked about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day on each of the two roads. [228] Yes vehicles vehicles vehicles |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[229] In excess of twenty thousand yes. [230] Are you talking about vehicles or P C |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[231] yes, we tend not to use P C Us as much as well a few years ago. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[232] Well well that just shows you [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[233] What is a vehicle then? [234] Anyway doesn't matter. [235] We're talking about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles so you've still got erm a considerable proportion, somewhere of the order of at least two thirds, which |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[236] It depends which relief road we're talking about, but I think I would accept I mean I can accept the point that er Mr is making about er the relative er benefits in terms of traffic relief afforded by either an inner northern route or an outer northern route. [237] And he's quite correct in pointing those out and I wouldn't disagree with him on on that score. [238] Erm we [...] and that's one reason why we've brought along the plan which shows the different traf traffic effects. [239] Er of the on the northern route and on indeed the western route. [240] Erm it is quite clear from that that because the inner routes er are much closer in er to the urban area, they do pick up more of the local movements between Harrogate and Knaresborough er than does the outer route. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[241] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[242] Erm you know having said that, that clearly is is one factor, it's an important factor in assessing the schemes but it is one factor and a number of other things such as the impact clearly of the routes themselves. [243] And the public response to those routes. [244] Er now I I would expect, I don't know whether it's worth talking about the general principle that we're talking about different routes here and as i understand, the purpose today was to talk about the need for relief roads and I would expect at some future date, at a public enquiry when er I'm defending er the outer blue er the outer northern route, to defend why that was chosen as opposed to an inner northern route and not rely upon the key diagram in the structure plan and the stars that are shown on there. [245] Er to be the to be the route. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[246] No. [247] I'm try I'm I I I I'm trying to stay with need and purpose. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[248] Right. [249] Right. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[250] But you have defined the route in a particular way on the key diagram, when there was an alternative way of defining it. [251] And I think in the context of what ... P P G twelve says, it is right for this examination, to consider the proposal as you have presented it to us. [252] And the need for that as opposed to the alternative. [253] In that context, how does an outer northern relief road impact differently in terms of traffic relief on Knaresborough as opposed to an inner Northern relief road? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[254] Erm well the the the detailed figures are shown on the diagram there. [255] I haven't presented those in my in my statements |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[256] Sorry [...] read those. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[257] No right well we'll have to go up and have a look at them. [258] I mean if in terms of the statement in the structure plan, it is simply the policy doesn't relate to an outer northern relief road. [259] Erm it's only |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[260] the the reason it's on the diagram it it simply reflects the fact in fact w w w we were overtaken almost by events in terms of the structure plan policy in that the County Council had move on to t had undertaken public consultation, and it had determined a preferred route. [261] Er and it was felt appropriate at the time that that should be indicated on the T the key diagram to be to be helpful more than nothing else. [262] We have on most of our bypass schemes in fact a all the other bypass schemes shown on the key diagram simply show them by a star on the diagram. [263] In fact the Ripon bypass is actually shown on the other s on the on the other side of Ripon the bypass is actually er located. [264] So I don't think the stars on the diagram itself are as I see it are particularly important. [265] I mean if it is helpful and Mr and I did have this discussion in the pre-meeting that we had, er certainly if you wish to recommend that the d that the stars on the the diagram were to be changed er just simply to show one star instead of a route, then I for one would be quite happy with that. [266] If that satisfied Mr . [267] It's simply the reason it was done that way was to reflect a County Council decision which had been taken fairly recent times on the route of an outer as opposed to an inner. [268] But there's a lot if we were going to talk about the m relative merits of the inner and outer today, I think er there's quite a lot in addition to the er the traffic effects within Knaresborough which we would have to go into er er because I mean, in fact we've and that is why I didn't include in certainly in my statement, er any defence er in any great detail of choosing an outer route as opposed to an inner route. [269] I'm quite happy to go into that, we have all the information here, we can do it but it would take some time I suspect. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[270] I think we have two alternatives. [271] Either we pursue the need for the blue route as opposed to any other route to the north of Harrogate, or the County Council puts on record, I E in a letter to the panel, that it proposes to amend the key diagram. [272] If it proposes to amend the key diagram such that it does not indicate that the County Council intends to construct a blue route, which is what the key diagram indicates to me at the moment, then the ball game becomes very different. [273] But as the key diagram stands at the moment, because it goes north of Knaresborough in its indication of where the route proposal will be, I think if that i key diagram is to remain, it is right for the examination to consider what the need for that route is as opposed to a route or any other route which goes between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [274] The choice is yours. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[275] The w the western is is shown by a single star |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[276] It's described in the policy as A fifty nine, sixty one relief road [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[277] I think the difference there is that we're talking about we're not talking inners and outers there, we're talking about or certainly in terms of the consultation that we've undertaken on the western route, it's been different variations of a western route, there isn't an equivalent of a of an inner route for the for the western side. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[278] Mm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[279] Er and so the the dia the stars on the the diagram for the western relief road er aren't indicative of er of a particular line or particular option. [280] Because here we have looked at four options for the western highway and th and those stars could indicate any of those four options so I think [...] |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[281] They could indeed but they do indicate a western relief road. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[282] Oh yes clearly yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[283] Excuse us one moment. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[284] Mr , you want to come in? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[285] Yes please sir. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[286] And do you want to come in Mr as well? [break in recording] |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[287] shown over there that we haven't seen. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[288] Alright, just a minute, Mr first. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[289] Er the the interests of of my two clients are quite different erm and and it would be very helpful to me if the A fifty nine and A erm s sixty one could be treated separately. [290] As far as Scotton Parish Council are concerned, I have confirmed my instructions from them and they would be more than satisfied if the County Council would agree to amend the key diagram to indicate er a n what is at present shown as a series of stars around the north of of Harrogate, by a single star, that would satisfy Scotton Parish Council. [291] I believe the issues about the western road are different but but I can say that as far as the northern route is concerned, Scotton Parish Council would be more than happy if i the notation on the key diagram could be changed to a single star. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[292] Thank you for thank Mr , Mr can we leave your point on one side while while we address the A fifty nine. [293] Mr do you want to have a ten minute break while you consider this question of whether you would be prepared to advise the panel that you would be a you would accept an amendment to the key diagram to show one star or what ever it is you have used on the key diagram to indicate [...] A fifty nine relief road proposal? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[294] Yes I'd be grateful for that chairman if that could be arranged thank you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[295] Yes we will come back at five to three. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[296] Have you have you been able to come to a conclusion about the A fifty nine? ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[297] Yes chairman, that er ... we er would be prepared, the County Council would be prepared to put in a statement to the effect that er it would be w prepared to amend the key diagram to reflect a a single er star on the diagram er to reflect the A fifty nine relief road. [298] Er similarly we feel it would be more appropriate if that were to be the case er perhaps should point out there are other schemes where we have shown a series of of lines stars on the key diagram, it's not just on the Harrogate. [299] Er also there is at York. [300] But er given the er the position in terms of there is a policy statement in the structure plan which refers to the A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, er if it's going to be helpful then e as well as the er A fifty nine, then it would be appropriate to show the western relief road rather than a series of er of arrows, to similarly show that I think we'd have to show that as two st two er stars or arrows rather than one because we would need to er indicate both to the north and south of the A fifty nine. [301] But what I'd suggest is that we're actually er will prepare today, this afternoon, an amended version er of that diagram which we can then er er pass to Mr and Mr for comment. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[302] Can you Beg you pardon |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) | [...] |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[303] Can you refer me to the part of the key diagram which shows the scheme for York to which you referred a moment ago? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[304] It's the existing approved er structure plan which shows |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[305] Ah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[306] York and in fact the southern bypass for Harrogate and Knaresborough was shown in that fashion. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] ... |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[307] York from the one I'm looking at is a series of triangles. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[308] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[309] That's correct yeah. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[310] As does Harrogate Knaresborough southern bypass. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[311] That's right yes. [312] It's the same way that we've shown the northern and western in the alteration. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[313] I don't therefore understand what you're saying about the single star. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[314] Single triangle rather than star . |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[315] Single triangle. [316] ... It seems to me that the indication you have given on the key diagram to alteration number three for Harrogate Knaresborough is exactly the same as for example the indication given for York and for Harrogate Knaresborough southern on the approved key diagram. [317] What's the change you're offering? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[318] Well it was to be helpful to the er to Mr and Scotton Parish Council that what what I was saying was, we weren't relying on the key diagram to justify at some future date, it being an outer northern relief road, that decision would have to be defended at future enquiry. [319] If it's to be helpful if if Mr is saying on behalf of the Parish Council that by showing it in this way on the key diagram, he feels is prejudicing or the Parish Council's position is prejudiced at some future date, then it's to be helpful to that that the County Council is saying it is prepared to show it simply as a an arrow and similarly for consistency it would seem to make sense to show the western in the same fashion. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[320] Can can we stick just with the A fifty nine for the time being? [321] Er you would indicate somewhere in the Harrogate Knaresborough are on the key diagram, a solid black triangle to illustrate an A fifty nine Harrogate Knaresborough relief road? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[322] That's correct. [323] There would be I think in total there would be three black arrows. [324] Er one between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the to the east of the A sixty one. [325] This is where the difficulty when we have A sixty north and south and A fifty nine east and west. [326] But between the A sixty one erm running north of Harrogate |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[327] Mm is that the Killinghall section? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[328] The Killinghall section. [329] Between there and the A fifty nine to the east, we would have one single er arrow or triangle and then we would have another arrow or triangle between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the west of Harrogate and similarly another arrow between the A fifty nine and the A sixty one south of the A fifty nine, down to A sixty one south of Harrogate. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[330] C can we s sorry to keep coming back to this one but I want to leave the A sixty one for the time being. [331] Erm what we would like and I'm taking you at taking your statement er as you made it. [332] Er with regard to the A fifty nine and the representation with a single black triangle somewhere in the northern vicinity of Harrogate, Knaresborough, somewhere in that vicinity on the key |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[333] Yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[334] diagram. [335] Er we could you let us have a letter to that effect, address it to the panel secretary and really as soon as possible. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[336] Certainly sir. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[337] Tomorrow morning. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[338] Can I be sure that I'm interpreting this correctly. [339] ... In saying that the County Council is not committed to a road which goes north or Knaresborough. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[340] No no I we're not saying that at all, that's a different proposition entirely er certainly the County Council is at this moment in time committed to an outer northern relief road, I don't think there's any question of that. [341] Er what we as I was putting was suggesting was in terms of the key diagram and the structure plan we would show it as a single arrow. [342] And we would defend that er er de or we would debate that as I understand it as where it should be debated at er the next stage of the planning process which will be an enquiry into a a planning application. [343] And that this structure plan was merely indicating the policy of building a relief road and the key diagram was merely indicative as as I understand that is its purpose, not to show routes, but indicative of a location whereabouts in the County is this does this polic policy relate to. [344] And that's what we are we will be relying upon with er with this change. ... |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[345] I think the general feeling of the panel is that if you are committed to a route north of Knaresborough, then we think it's sufficiently a enough a strategic matter for us to continue the discussion on on it. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[346] Its functions would be different its nee therefore the need for it would be different. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[347] As I understood er Mr 's position, he would have been on behalf of the Parish Council who are the only er people who are concerned about this as I understand, who raised an objection at this er at this stage they they would have been quite happy with the proposition that I've put forward on behalf of the County Council. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[348] Mr your comment please. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[349] George . [350] The reason the Parish Council objected to the structure plan was that they considered that the structure plan itself was beginning to represent a statutory commitment a statutory commitment to a road to the north of Knaresborough. [351] Now if Mr is saying that outside the context of the structure plan entirely which is all I took him to be saying, that the members of North Yorkshire County Council are still determined to build a road to the north of of erm |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[352] Knaresborough. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[353] of Knaresborough, that that doesn't seem to be a a a matter that concerns the structure plan greatly because there are County Council elections, there are new County Councils, the reason I am here today is to avoid any sort of statutory commitment in the structure plan. [354] And that's what I want to avoid today and that's my sole objective. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[355] My question was to Mr was designed to throw light on that point. [356] And the answer was the County Council is committed or not prepared to be uncommitted to a road north of Knaresborough. [357] It seems to me there is a tenable argument which says that whether the road the relief road is north or south of Knaresborough, is a strategic matter. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[358] [...] wouldn't indicate that would it er so [...] the A fifty nine relief that the structure plan policy is indicating. [359] There are various ways [...] about that as there are with many road schemes er where there are structure plan policies for a particular scheme and there are arrows on key diagrams, there are many ways of getting from A to B er they are not er in terms of outer and inner, they are going from the same A to B. They they start and finish at the same locations, it is just a different way of getting from A to B. Which quite properly as I understand it would be a matter for debate er either at the local plan or if a planning application is made er earlier than that er then at a at a planning enquiry into the specific road proposal. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[360] But nevertheless, you may have different ways of getting from A to B but those different routes may in actual fact give a different set of benefits or perform different functions or not necessarily meet all the needs as you're setting out to meet. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[361] They always do in major highway schemes, nearly all options for major highway schemes have certainly have all have different environmental impacts [...] affect er all the factors that we've looked at differently on all our schemes. [362] Er er traffic effects are different, economic effects, effects on agriculture, effects on greenbelt land etcetera etcetera, they all have d depending on which route you take, a different impact. [363] And that's the case with inner and outer, They are perhaps more fundamentally different er in some respects that than than other options for an outer where they go for example on the western where they're totally outside, I would accept that. [364] But the way that the the structure plan is is er is indicating the policy, it is it is silent on that. [365] If we amend particularly if we amend the the way the diagram is er is indicating it. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[366] Can I can I ask you a question and then direct the next one to Mr ? [367] When you say the County Council is committed to the northern or the outer relief road route, do you mean committed or do you mean that that is their preferred option. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[368] That is their preferred option which I am instructed er to to pursue. [369] They have got to the stage having gone through the consultation, having done the assessments, looked at the alternatives, have declared that as their preferred route which er the next stage would then be as I say, the planning process. [370] There is and the County Council has indicated that if circumstances change, er then it can look at this again. [371] So in terms of commitment er County Councils can always look at the the route, it can always change its mind. [372] Er it may indeed deed have to change to change its mind if if a future planning enquiry er |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[373] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[374] A future inspector recommends [...] it is the wrong route. [375] So situations are reviewed and we do look at monitored traffic flows for example, we do look at our justifications and if there are reasons for a change we can go back, so it's not irreversible by any means, that is the current committed preferred route however and I didn't want to give an indication that by changing the diagram we were saying everything's opened up again, cos clearly we've reached a stage that the County Council's declared it's a preferred route and that's |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[376] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[377] declared for people who are buying houses and etcetera and it has a certain statutory status but it but it can be looked at again clearly. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[378] Yes it's a preference. [379] Now Mr , in the light of what Mr has said, do you understand that if the structure plan key diagram was amended in that way, it will still yo leave you and your clients open to challenge, or you would have a better chance of challenging er the er preferred option of the County Councils at the next stage, which is either through the local plan channel or through the er the the planning application stage for the highway? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[380] Yes, that's our objective. [381] We have always tried at every stage to to erm avoid a commitment of any kind to an outer northern route. [382] We know that we will have further battles in the future to fight but erm we wanted to avoid any statutory commitment in the structure plan and we will be happy if we achieve that today. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[383] Thank you. ... |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[384] Before we leave this Mr , can I please ask you if you accept what Mr has said in paragraph three of his statement B three double O two, the statement on behalf of the Parish Council? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[385] Could you tell me so that I can find the statement. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[386] Your statement on behalf of the Parish Council, your summary |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[387] Summary yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[388] paragraph three. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[389] On behalf of Scotton. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[390] Thank you. ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[391] Oh I don't a I don't agree with paragraph three no. [392] I don't accept the assertions that it would achieve limited traffic benefits or indeed would would be unlikely to bring significant environmental relief. [393] I certainly I I think the percentages there are er er are accurate er taken from the the diagrams, but I wouldn't accept the er the follow on, the conclusions which are are drawn in that paragraph, clearly. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[394] You accept the percentages though do you? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[395] I accept that those those percentages are ones taken from a particular report er showing the changes at certain points on the on the A fifty nine. [396] We've actually summarized that as Mr has said in his proof as being showing reliefs of between twenty and thirty percent. [397] Er er er and those er those are particular points in the network where er particular figures have been obtained. [398] ... One of the objectives that the County Council has actually set when it declared the when it approved the outer route was to instruct the County Surveyor to seek ways and means of trying to increase the relief to Harrogate and Knaresborough er with an outer northern relief road. [399] And that's work which we will need to do in the future, these percentages erm have ob have been obtained from our forecast based upon basically the the the the status quo if you like, in a free choice. [400] Clearly as we build a package of measures er within the urban areas, then we'll be looking for schemes that will encourage use of the outer northern relief road and w attempting to increase the er the flow of traffic on that route. [401] But even having said that, er it is still performing in my view or would perform an extremely valuable er service in terms of taking out the A fifty nine through traffic. [402] As you'll see from the diagram, in the year of opening in nineteen ninety nine, on the central section of the l outer northern relief road there are eight thousand vehicles a day using that that road, that's eight thousand vehicles a day that won't be wouldn't be passing through Knaresborough and through Harrogate. [403] ... And I think that is significant. ... |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[404] So can we come back then to er asking you for written confirmation of the |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[405] Certainly sir. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[406] indication of the A fifty nine relief by a single triangle and er let us have that in writing. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[407] Certainly sir. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[408] Yeah. [409] Thank you. [410] Mr . |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[411] Can I say that I hope Mr or or whoever writes for the County Council wouldn't use the form of words, but erm although I am instructed by my clients that they would be satisfied with the change to a single triangle, erm I don't think that they would be satisfied if you in making that change, you accompanied by a form of words which said the County Council are still committed to building an outer. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[412] Thank you. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[413] That is in practice the the position. [414] ... Is it not? [415] What Mr said to us. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[416] Can we do anything in this structure plan forum to to change that position. [417] I what I have come here today to do is is in the matters that we're discussing, to to take out any commitment to an outer northern. [418] I do not think that we can achieve more in this forum. [419] If there is more to be achieved in this forum, then I think my clients would like to fight for it because we we do believe that we would we do believe that logic and technical sense stands against the proposal that's in the structure plan at the moment. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[420] Well at the moment Mr is not in a position to how shall I put it, withdraw his authority's commitment or preferred option, they have they have made that decision and short of him convening a memb a meeting of the highways committee between now and whenever, you wo there's no way in which he would be in a position to withdraw that. [421] The only way in which er you could get how shall I put it, another view on the issue, would be to continue the debate here on whether or not the outer northern fulfils the functions and the needs which it pr claims to do compared with the inner routes between Knaresborough and Harrogate. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[422] Are you offering me that as an option chairman? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[423] I'm suggesting if you want to pursue that, I'm prepared to listen to it yes. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[424] May I I do not need an adjournment but may I back away from the microphone to take instruction? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[425] Yes. ... |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[426] The |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[427] Mr |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[428] Er George , the my clients instruction is not phrased very legally, but it's, let's go for it, so we would sir like to pursue the issue of er our contention is that the outer er northern r route as shown in the structure plan key diagram as it is at present does not meet the need for traffic relief of the A fifty nine A sixty one corridor. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[429] Do you want to expand on that. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[430] Yes. ... |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[431] [...] give your name again Mr ? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[432] George . [433] My expansion is crystallized in paragraph three of the summary statement on behalf of the Parish Council. [434] That is that the County Surveyor chose in September nineteen ninety one to show reductions at six points on the existing road network. [435] That choice of six points is not mine, it was the County Surveyor's choice. [436] The reductions at those six points are the figures I have given in paragraph three, seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. [437] They are very low levels of reduction. [438] If one uses the criteria in the Department of Transports manual of environmental appraisal, to which the County Council themselves have referred, most of those levels of reduction don't even erm fall at the level where you would normally evaluate their environmental impact. [439] I should say that the figures of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent and twenty three percent, the first four figures, are figures on the A fifty nine. [440] The smaller reductions are on the part of the A fifty nine through Harrogate where the flows are much bigger. [441] The reductions, the bigger percentage reductions of twenty eight percent and twenty three percent are in the section closer to Knaresborough where in fact the flows are substantially smaller, er are quite a bit under twenty thousand. [442] I could actually give you the exact figures er or or Mr but I won't give them at at the moment of the top of my head. [443] But those big percentage reductions are taking place at a point on the network where the southern bypass has already reduced the flows, so th those parts of the network would be much less in need of relief. [444] The ten percent and thirteen percent figures which are very low indeed re relate to the A six six one which following the opening of the southern bypass and er the Sainsbury er I don't know whether it's a hypermarket or a supermarket on Wetherby Road, has very now has very high traffic flows which are comparable to flows on the A fifty nine. [445] The outer northern rel relief road does nothing to to reduce those flows or nothing significant to reduce those flows on Wetherby Road. [446] An inner relief road, the one favoured by Scotton Parish Council would be much more successful. [447] And and the final thing that that that I ought to say is is that i if i it has a hangover to what's going to be said later today. [448] If an inner northern relief road were built, it could take some of the traffic which the western relief road is catered to deal with. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[449] Mr [clears throat] the percentages which you have quoted, are they taken from the figures which the County Surveyors has proposed in his table two, attached to his paper? [450] Yeah I just want to be clear on wh |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[451] No! |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[452] No? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[453] No. [454] Er may I tell you where they are taken from ? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[455] Yes yes please. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[456] Thank you. [457] If you would turn to my full submission on behalf of Scotton Parish Council. [458] ... And if you would turn to appendix three to that submission. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[459] Yes. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[460] Appendix three er contains two pages taken from the County Surveyors report of the sixth of September nineteen ninety one. [461] It's the first of those pages I would direct you to |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[462] Thank you. [463] The the page which is number three. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[464] That's right and it's the table in the top half . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[465] And it it immediately precedes paragraph three point four. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[466] Thank you. [467] Yeah. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[468] I think the question follows Mr , why is County Council supporting a proposal which compared with the o other options before it, provides least relief? ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[469] The the debate about the inner and and outer is is a little more complicated than that. [470] I find myself in some difficulty in that the statement I have prepared does not debate the merits of the inner and outer routes, but merely the question of is there a need for a relief road er and what are the benefits that the particular relief road er that we are currently promoting which is the outer northern, whether that is is sufficient to demonstrate that it is meeting a need. [471] I think we're getting into very difficult or er waters when we start talking about the relative comparison with other routes which I haven't er myself included in my statement any reference to. [472] Clearly if I had been aware that we were going to be talking about the merits of other routes, then I would have prepared a different statement. [473] But having said that, given that we do need to go on and talk about it, I will do my my best to give that information er that I have. [474] Clearly the diagram the the the table in Mr 's proof where he refers to the traffic figures,th those are taken indeed from our own er committee report er to members which set out er the relief at various points, six points on the highway network, for the outer route compared er with the inner routes. [475] And you'll see from that that er and I accept that er the outer route, the relief is approximately half to the A fifty nine at If you look at the A fifty nine, Knaresborough Road, Harrogate, er there is a relief of five thousand vehicles for the er outer blue route as opposed to nine thousand five hundred er for the inner northern routes. [476] Er now clearly if the if the members had si had been simply the highways committee had been deciding the preferred route simply on the basis of which gives the greatest traffic relief then on that basis they would have chosen an inner northern. [477] Er there are other factors. [478] Er we included to members the information on traffic flows, we also included the information which you have a copy of in my statement |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[479] Mhm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[480] which gives a very comprehensive assessment er of er the i in terms of the Department of Transport's own manual of environmental appraisal, sets out er information on all the routes that we that were put to the public as part of the consultation we did in nineteen ninety one. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[481] Can you direct us to the table please? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[482] Is this your appendix B? ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[483] Appendix B sir yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[484] Yes. [485] Thank you ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[486] So these are all factors in here which er the the ... Well first of all the general public was provided with a a synopsis of this if I can put it that way in that the en original consultation leaflet included er extracts from this, summaries of it er in the leaflet, er and that set out clearly the differing traffic effects of the outer northern relief road compared with the inner. [487] It also set out the er as you'll see from here Well if you look at the detailed information that er was available at the exhibitions, you'll see that it runs through er the effect of the routes on first of all all the vehicle travellers, gives the time savings, vehicle operating cost savings, value accident savings for each of the options. [488] Erm |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[489] Can I stop you there is You've already explained that the inner routes have a significantly better performance in terms of diverting traffic than the outer one. [490] What's the position with regard to accidents? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[491] If you look at the first page of the appendix B, er the outer route was was called was the blue route so if you look down |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[492] Yes [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[493] at the bottom of that page, you'll see that the blue route and there are two sets of figures, that is based upon high and lows you see at the top which are high and low traffic forecasts. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[494] Yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[495] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[496] Er for high traffic forecast there would be the blue route would save and this is a thirty year thirty year assessment period which is a standard assessment period for major road schemes, twenty four fatalities under high traffic growth conditions, twenty fatalities under low traffic growth. [497] Two hundred and eighty serious the these are reductions, two hundred and eighty re er r serious injury accidents would be reduced on the A fifty nine, two thirty with low growth. [498] Seven hundred and ninety six er less slight injury accidents on the A fifty nine, six hundred and fifty three with low growth. [499] That compares with the figures you'll see for the inner routes erm which are higher er because of the er greater transfer of traffic from existing roads. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[500] So again, the inner route performs better. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[501] Performs better yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[502] Thank you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[503] And in terms of vehicle operating costs savings, if I just go back to the top of that page, the inner routes again perform well not not so not so well or better? [504] Which? [505] Do they perform better? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[506] Er in actual fa in actual fact not so not so well in that er there are there are negative benefits er as you'll see in some and less negative on the blue route. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[507] Yeah. [508] ... Mr . |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[509] That that is not my interpretation of the table. [510] Erm I I I I will apologize if I am wrong but my interpretation of the table is that erm ... could you say chairman wh which of three rows of We're dealing with the the top part of the table all vehicle travellers, |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[511] Yes yes. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[512] which of the three rows were you talking about? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[513] I was just looking at vehicle operating cost savings. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[514] Ah the middle one. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[515] Yes. ... |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[516] Then |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[517] Can I can |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[518] It it it seems to me sir that that erm the the the that some of the inner routes at least the the red route performs better on on operating cost savings than the blue route. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[519] Yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[520] Are we misreading this table Mr ? [521] Red performs better than blue? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[522] Not er not my understanding, the the and I think there is a we may have hit on the perhaps the only the only error in the whole, all the figures in this table, there should be a minus clearly in front of the three point six seven in that table. [523] But you'll see on the vehicle operating cost savings, that they're all negative but the blue route is less negative that purple, orange, red and pink and therefore erm is marginally better in terms of vehicle operating cost savings. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[524] But on the other two criteria, either side of vehicle operating cost, time savings and |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[525] Yes it's better on the inner routes yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[526] accident savings, red is better than blue? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[527] Yes. [528] Er red is ... better than blue yes. [529] I'd accept that yeah. ... |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[530] Are there any major groupings of this table Mr where blue is better than red? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[531] Well I think what you've got to be careful of and it's always a difficulty when you're looking at er benefits and dis-benefits of major road schemes, you'll see that we go into a tremendous amount of or collect a tremendous amount of information about the different impacts. [532] Some can be quantified in numeric terms and can be looked at objectively, others are subjective. [533] Erm and those are the ones which are described er qualitatively put it that way. [534] Now it is very difficult, clearly to compare qualitatively er one route with another but if you take an example, the effect on greenbelt land, which should you look towards the back, it's just one that springs to mind but there there are no doubt er there will be others which we can go into. [535] Er you will see that on in group four which is the top Unfortunately these aren't page numbers in this er pa they don't have page numbers in this manual. [536] But under group four, under the effect impact on policies, erm ... is that the right one? [537] Yeah designation of greenbelt, [...] authority of Harrogate Borough Council, approximate land-take erm you'll see that for the blue route, that affects one point four hectares of greenbelt land, whereas for the inner routes, purple affects seventeen point six hectares, orange, twenty point two, red twenty point five and pink twenty point eight. [538] The other er aspect perhaps is if and again on the consultation leaflet and in the manual, effect on houses demolished. [539] Er there are no houses demolished with the blue route, er there are eight houses demolished with the purple route, six with the orange route, six with the red route, and two with the pink route. [540] The other clear major factor was that a result of public consultation er and clearly this was an important consideration when members came to choose the route, that seventy percent of those consulted favoured the outer northern route, the blue route. [541] And they were given the information on on traffic relief er in the leaflet in more detail at the exhibition. [542] And so they were aware when that er that view was expressed of the differing effects. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[543] Would you accept that there is an element of us all preferring something that is further away from us than something that is nearer to. [544] I hesitate to use words |
| mr mills (PS3YS) | [...] |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[545] Well I mean that is one of the other factors of course |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[546] Is there an element of that in it? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[547] Well well clearly that is that is er that is one of the the the elements nevertheless, something that is to be ignored lightly. [548] The other factor probably the way to look at that more objectively is to see how many houses are in proximity to each of the routes which is a standard way again in the departments own er manual of environmental appraisal, of doing that and that is the information which is contained [...] find it er ... which is a way of looking at noise effects. [549] Er and you'll see that in group two, the impact of the various routes on occupiers, residential occupiers, you'll see that for the blue route and that this is where we have the number of properties demolished by the different routes, on the top line, er in terms of noise effects adjacent to new road, number of houses within a given distance, a centre line, nought to fifty metres there are are only five properties within nought to fifty metres of the blue route whereas there are thirty on the purple, twenty er on the orange, [...] less on the red, four and five on the pink. [550] And so we have again you know, set that information out in the in in the document. [551] Er number of premises [...] adjacent it's similar [...] . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[552] But if you look at some of the other factors, for example just within [...] all the other routes, score better than the blue route. [553] I mean, number of premises experiencing experience at least halving of the present traffic. [554] Er |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[555] That reflects the the traffic forecast that we talked about earlier. [556] I think we r we we accepted in in the County Surveyors report to members, er it was clearly pointed out that the traffic benefits of the inner routes are greater than the outer route. [557] And that I'm not disputing that. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[558] And that's to that's clearly summarized on the last page of your appendix B isn't it? [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[559] It is but then er there are many schemes that er we have that don't have as good a rate of return as the the blue route, that is an extremely healthy economic rate of return for the outer northern blue route. [560] So although it is not as good as the inner routes it is nevertheless an extremely robust scheme in the department of transports terms. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[561] So why |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[562] Because it does take out a significant volume of traffic out of Harrogate and Knaresborough. [563] It's not as much as as the other two but it's still a significant amount. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[564] So why at the end of the day does the County Council feel that the blue route is preferable to the others? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[565] Because in reaching its decision it takes account not only of the technical merits in terms of traffic relief but also, the wider impact er the other factors in terms of the route and also public opinion. [566] If that were not the case then we wouldn't have er public consultation exercise and ask for people's views in terms of which routes they support. [567] And in this case it was an overwhelming support for the blue route. [568] It wasn't a marginal decision, the the sum total of the inner routes er represent [...] thirty percent of those er expressing a view whereas the one outer route attracted seventy percent of the response in favour. [569] And clearly that had a significant effect on the discussion. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[570] And yet on the face of it, the inner route seemed to offer a better way of meeting the need than performing the functions that you seek for the relief road to perform in that part of Harrogate Knaresborough. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[571] Yes. ... |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[572] Can you identify any particular factor apart from public opinion which [...] indicate [...] may not be as helpful in this sort of circumstance as in others. [573] Any particular factor |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[574] Well |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[575] apart from that, on which the County Council placed a great deal of weight. [576] Because on the evidence before us it seems to me it's hard to understand why they went that way. [577] I've stolen Mr 's thunder I think. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[578] I find it I find I must say I find it difficult to understand why you find it difficult to understand that they they chose that particular route. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[579] [...] I'll go through it if you like. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[580] Clearly clearly there are o there are there are clear reasons in my view why that route was chosen but there are As I say I find th [...] somewhat at a disadvantage because I haven't come prepared to talk about the relative merits in great detail of the two routes. [581] The the information certainly there in that t in the manual erm there are other factors. [582] Clearly er my recollection at the time there was great concern and it can and it's it's it's arguably reflected in the public response, about creating a new road passing between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [583] [...] seen as a vital green wedge between Harrogate and Knaresborough, it's designated as greenbelt land, there was a tremendous amount of concern er about passing through there. [584] L some of that land is at the present time is used for the golf course, there was an impact of all those routes on on the golf course. [585] There was major concern about that. [586] But perhaps more than that was the concern about this e affecting this precious area of land between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [587] And that came out as a as a as a certainly many people mentioned that to me at the exhibitions that I attended. [588] Er there was a worry that well first of all the effect just the the appearance of the road passing through that area, clearly obviously concerns about development but that can be on on any route that can happen. [589] Er and that can be resisted. [590] Er but but simply the fact it was passing through this area of land that was regarded by locals as being sacred and separating the two communities. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[591] But if I'm if I act as devil's advocate, the fact that that inner route would pass through the greenbelt does not necessarily diminish the purpose of the greenbelt. [592] Which is to keep or prevent coalescence I think [...] er probably ask Mr to comment on that. [593] Surely the the primary purpose of the greenbelt in this location is to prevent coalescence between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [594] Or does he believe that is a route is put through there then that would increase development pressures in that sector of the district and the greenbelt notation would then run the risk of having to be reviewed. [595] I shouldn't put words in your mouth, |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[596] [laugh] Thank you chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. [597] Er yes I this this is a very very sensitive part of the what is the West Riding greenbelt, the outer edge of the West Riding greenbelt. [598] It does have a its prime function is erm protecting the coalescence of Harrogate and Knaresborough and and protecting their special character. [599] Erm I don't necessarily think that a road running through that area would increase development pressures and basically because it is greenbelt, it's not going to [...] development pressure. [600] Very much however depends on the alignment of the road. [601] I think if the road was drawn very closely in to the greenbelt edge then that could have an effect on development pressures and it could lead to pressures for erm some er amendment the greenbelt boundary in in the future erm of plan making processes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[602] What are the Borough Council's views about relative preference to inner and outer [...] ? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[603] One of the erm I mean I think it has to be said that we erm I support everything that er Chris has said about the the effect of traffic relief. [604] There is much greater traffic relief provided by the inner relief road er I think our gen |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[605] Is that a good thing? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[606] I sorry? |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[607] Is that a good thing? ... |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[608] In itself in providing a greater degree of traffic relief Yes it I mean it is a good thing, it is a plus point. [609] But I think erm the general point that was made really has to be considered alongside other considerations, is is the the key consideration. [610] Erm our view was that there are erm problems associated with er an inner relief road and one of one of those problems was the amount of traffic that would pass through [...] End at Knaresborough, there was a lot of concern as we spelt out to members in our er committee report that erm traffic erm along Forest Lane Head towards Knaresborough along the A existing A fifty nine corridor, would actually increase over the do nothing situation. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[611] Is that a matter which could be overcome by [...] detailed position? [612] Or not? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[613] Er I don't know if I can answer that [...] I suspect not . |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[614] Sorry does it I put my question very badly, does it make any difference to traffic through this particular part or Knaresborough where the relief road is? [615] If it were [...] |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[616] If if it was an inner relief road [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[617] Yeah. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[618] Yes. [619] No I don't think it really makes an difference on the detailed alignment of an inner relief road, I think it's basically the perception of motorists using er the system in that part of Harrogate and Knaresborough that it would be quicker to use the existing A fifty nine through Knaresborough than you go along one of the radial routes onto er the inner relief road. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[620] So it might The inner relief road, whichever alignment [...] if I read you right, would actually push more traffic back onto the A fifty nine in Knaresborough. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[621] Along a section of the A fifty nine yes |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[622] Along a section. [623] Yes. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[624] A along Forest Lane Head, really the the bit that passes through the countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[625] Yes. [626] Mr ? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[627] Thank you. [628] Yes I'd like to m make a it's an important point about [...] End. [629] It it does indeed do what Mr said, but there are two other roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate directi one from the Harrogate direction and one from the south east. [630] What the inner northern roads do is encourage people to go into Knaresborough via Bond End but there is a considerable compensating decrease on the other two roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate direction. [631] So if if one takes all three roads into Knaresborough, it does not have it does not increase traffic. [632] It what it tends to do is to encourage more traffic to come into Knaresborough on the main road as opposed to the two secondary roads. [633] The second point to make again, is that where the A fifty nine comes into Knaresborough at Bond End, it is not as busy as it is e on other parts of its length. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[634] Yes I I don't really want to respond to that other than to say that Bond End is d it's still an extremely important consideration, it's in the conservation area, it's an important part of Knaresborough and it was obviously something that members had in mind when they they made their decision on on the relative merits. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[635] But ... do you and or your members ... place greater weight on the impact on that particular part of Knaresborough as opposed to the impact on Knaresborough and Harrogate generally? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[636] I don't know if I can answer that to be absolutely honest I I mean I really feel that erm that would be reading too much into the decision that that our members took at that time. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[637] Your own view? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[638] No my my own view [laugh] and it's I I don't know if I've come to a view on the relative weight of those sorts of considerations er I I'd need to think about it some more before I could come to a view on that. [639] There are other considerations which which come into play, for example the golf course between between Harrogate and Knaresborough. [640] Erm now that the inner relief road options would have required some relocation of the of the golf course, would certainly have disrupted erm the golf course and that was undoubtedly a a consideration. [641] Certainly something that the public erm referred to in their consultation response. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[642] Just to go back a stage, to a comment you made there, you you did say that the inner relief road on one of the routes, on one of those routes, would in fact enable environmental benefits to be felt elsewhere in the town, simply because you're getting a better distribution of the traffic. [643] I mean there there are some dis-benefits but do the benefits that arise from an inner route, outweigh those dis-benefits. [644] I mean has that been examined. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[645] I it's not been examined sir, no. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[646] It hasn't been examined. [647] ... [...] Mr do you want to raise anything else? |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[648] Very little. [649] Because most of what I have said is fair m most of the case that I wish to put er has come out in the discussion that there has just been. [650] It is also contained in my submission. [651] I will summarize it as follows. [652] The I believe that there is a need for traffic relief to the A fifty nine and to the A six six one. [653] An inner northern relief road |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[654] That is that is the Wetherby Harrogate road isn't it. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[655] It is yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[656] Thank you. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[657] The ... inner An inner northern bypass would provide that relief, it would be twice as successful in providing relief as an outer northern route. [658] It is true that if one searches on can find some aspects in which the outer northern route is preferable to the inner northern route. [659] Mr has mentioned the number of houses that would require demolition and the amount of greenbelt that would be taken. [660] About those two things I would say that the number of houses requiring demolition is very small, and as has been observed already, a road is not an inappropriate use in the greenbelt. [661] We also have one overall environmental assessment of the impact of the inner relief roads. [662] Not one of the little piece picking a little piece out, but an overall assessment and this was produced for the County Council by their environmental consultants and was specifically referred to in the County Surveyor and I think County Planning Officer's joint report, and that er assessment said, rather than damaging an an irreplaceable, sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. [663] So it is not simply that the inner northern route gives far greater traffic relief than the outer northern and therefore far more effectively meets the need, but also on environmental criteria, the Council's own consultants appear to have found that at least in its effect on the landscape that it is preferable. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[664] That quote just just so we have it for record, that quote is taken from eight point nine, paragraph eight point nine of your full submission. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[665] I'll just check. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[666] Page twelve. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[667] Yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[668] Thank you very much Mr , Mr would you like to come back? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[669] Just er just briefly sir if I may. [670] Erm ... clearly in terms of er the relative merits of the of the different routes for an A fifty nine relief road, there are advantages in in in traffic terms er of the inner northern relief roads. [671] Er I think er the important point to remember is that all of these er benefits and dis-benefits were I don't have the |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[672] Thank you. [673] Well just just to reiterate, I mean we we would still like to have that letter from you confirming that. [674] Mr |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[675] Chairman if I could just erm David , Harrogate Borough Council. [676] If I could just pick up on one point erm and that was related to the the two different types of inner relief road that that was proposed. [677] One set had possible links into Harrogate and the others didn't. [678] And they actually provide different levels of traffic relief. [679] And certainly it was the case as my understanding of it anyway, is that those l er those routes that had links into Harrogate provided far greater relief than those that didn't have links. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[680] Yes. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[681] And that when you look to compare the the merits of those er without links and the outer northern, there's not that much difference. [682] Our concern as Borough Council was with the er inner relief road options that that had links into the urban area. [683] We're very concerned about the environmental effects of those links into Harrogate. [684] Most of which would come onto erm the A fifty nine through the urban area, through residential areas or or in fact onto the stray. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[685] Sorry Mr but just to pursue that point [...] . [686] Those links into Harrogate nevertheless are required are they not in order for the relief road to function. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[687] They certainly would be required for an inner relief road erm to function effec as effectively as has been suggested at this E I P. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[688] I think what you're saying is we're not comparing like with like. [689] Mr . |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[690] Yes two two points. [691] First of all, I think ... that it it's difficult to be sure of this because of the way in which the County Council prepared their the evidence on which I relayed relied and like Mr I didn't come here prepared to talks in detail about the inner northern. [692] But to the best of my knowledge, the figures I have quoted on the inner northern are without links. [693] It becomes I I do touch on this at one point in my submission, it becomes even better if it has links. [694] I think it's twice as effective without links and it becomes even better with links. [695] That's the first point. [696] The se |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[697] Yeah carry on sorry, the second one. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[698] Right. [699] The second point is about the public consultation exercise. [700] I must ... choose my words with care as well that my clients and I think that there was very much an effect of people wanting to have a relief road, but also wanting to have it as far away from themselves a as they could have it. [701] One could use various pejorative terms to describe that which I won't but but my clients felt very strongly that there are not very many people living in Scotton and it was an easy option to say let's push the road further away. [702] What I think the public did not appreciate and I do not think would have appreciated clearly from the consultation leaflet, was quite how big a difference there was between the level of relief afforded by the inner relief roads and the outer relief roads, and in that context, I think that to say that the outer relief roads afford relief of between twenty and thirty percent is a little misleading in two respects. [703] And I don't mean to employ it's in any way dishonest. [704] A little misleading in two respects, on is I think the average person doesn't realize that it's very hard to perceive very much of a difference when there's only a twenty to thirty percent reduction. [705] And secondly erm the way the e the quote was made in the leaflet, doesn't point out the fact that in the part of the road where it's busiest, the part of the A fifty nine where it's busiest and on the A six six one, that the reduction is in fact less than twenty percent. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[706] Thank you. [707] Finally and then I'd like to go to the A sixty one, er a point of information Mr , the standard that you are talking about for eit any of these routes, is it dual two lane or single two lane? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[708] We haven't made that er decision as yet. [709] The |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[710] You haven't made a [...] No. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[711] public consultation was on the basis of a dual carriageway and it |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[712] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[713] clearly said that in the |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[714] Right. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[715] in the information so we had to we had to assume one for the purpose of public consultation but we said that the final decision on standards would be taken er in another time. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[716] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[717] Clearly when we make a planning application we have to er finalize that. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[718] Thank you can can we now move to the A sixty one? [719] You've been very patient Mr . |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[720] [laugh] interested in that conversation. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[721] Er Mr can I just pursue the general theme? [722] As I see it, you have talked about the A sixty one ... er and the idea of having a western relief road would remove something like seven thousand vehicles from the existing A sixty one. [723] Have I read your comments correctly? [724] Something of that order. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[725] That's right, seventy seven thousand which is thirty percent of [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[726] Yes yes. [727] Seven thousand out of |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[728] The actual flows on the bypass are higher than that |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[729] Well |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[730] in certain locations but for reasons which [...] go into |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[731] No no no no can I no no yes just let just let me pursue pursue the the thing the way I would like to at the moment. [732] Erm that seven thousand e those seven thousand vehicles, is that the through traffic element on the present day A sixty one? [733] Or in oth can I put it another way? [734] In fact what is the through traffic element on the existing A sixty one? ... |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[735] Right. [736] Er the A sixty one, it varies whether you're looking at the A sixty one south or the A sixty one north as to what percentage and what flow er is through traffic and also between which e elements or which radials we're talking about because there's A sixty one to A sixty one, there's also A sixty one to A fifty nine which is also through traffic . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[737] Yes. [738] Yeah yeah yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[739] Er but based upon the surveys that we conducted in er nineteen eighty nine which is the basis of the traffic forecasts, er on and that is just twelve hour two way flows, we have a total flow on the A sixty one north er entering Harrogate of sixteen thousand three hundred vehicles. [740] Now of that, fifty four percent was heading for Harrogate and Knaresborough. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[741] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[742] Erm |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[743] So that's roughly nine thousand ten thousand vehicles. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[744] Er that's right roughly roughly of that order |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[745] Yeah well |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[746] W eight thousand eight hundred I can give you the precise figure |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[747] was local traffic headed for Harrogate and Knaresborough. [748] Erm thirty three percent of that figure was heading South and was through traffic. [749] Er eleven percent er was heading west on the A fifty nine. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[750] So |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[751] Which is traffic coming down the A sixty one and heading west on the A fifty nine. [752] Er north |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[753] Coming from the north? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[754] It's coming from the north yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[755] Coming from the north yes. [756] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[757] But at the moment that doesn't use the A sixty one, it uses the the B road that comes through Killinghall to join |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[758] Yes yes yes. [759] [...] turning off somewhere [...] Killinghall [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[760] In in the centre of Killinghall yes yes . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[761] In the centre of Killinghall yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[762] Erm so that was er that was eleven percent but the total through traffic observed on the A sixty one north was er seven thousand five hundred [...] a day. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[763] Mhm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[764] So this is why clearly, some of that would be taken out of Harrogate |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[765] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[766] and some of it is taken out of Killinghall. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[767] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[768] Er because the traffic [...] clearly isn't carrying on down through but nevertheless is through traffic. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[769] Mm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[770] Which is the relief road does resolves |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[771] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[772] Erm |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[773] So but the residual element which would carry on south through Harrogate is |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[774] Yes? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[775] just remind me again, is how much? [776] Eleven was it eleven? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[777] Well the [cough] the or residual element er if you take out the I haven't got this figure actually to in this little table I've got here but if you bear with me one moment. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[778] Did you say twenty three percent? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[779] Thirty three percent of er |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[780] Thirty three percent |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[781] of sixteen thousand three hundred was [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[782] [...] five thousand four hundred yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[783] Roughly five thousand . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[784] Give or take yes. [785] ... Coming from the Leeds direction? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[786] Right again that's slightly complicated in that we have two roads coming from the Leeds direction and the |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[787] Mhm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[788] surveys were undertaken on both of those, the A sixty f five eight and the A sixty one. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[789] Which is the A six five eight? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[790] The A six six five eight if you look at the the bottom of the two roads, it's the one on the left which is going on down off the plan. [791] The A six five eight to Leeds. [792] The A sixty one is is heading due south. ... |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[793] Yeah this is the one that goes down to Poole isn't it. [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[794] Yes that's right. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[795] Yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[796] Yeah. [797] Mhm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[798] Erm ... if you look at the A ... six five eight, then er seventy five percent of that traffic is heading into Harrogate and Knaresborough. [799] Erm seventeen percent is headed north through traffic. [800] Erm a fairly low percentage, three percent er travelling East, and just one percent are travelling west. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[801] Mhm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[802] So there's just over two thousand vehicles. [803] Er there's an ei total flow of eight thousand two hundred, now six thousand one hundred and fifty of that is local traffic, two thousand and fifty is passing through. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[804] Sorry could you repeat the figure for through traffic? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[805] Two thousand and fifty vehicles. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[806] Thank you. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[807] This is in a twelve hour so for a daily flow we've This was a surveying period [...] about twenty percent for [...] to these for a full day. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[808] So am I am I right in thinking that the western relief road is catering for a north south through traffic element, but its primary purpose is to provide relief to the main e the present A sixty one which runs through the centre of Harrogate and again would seek to distribute traffic around the network and bring it in on other radial roads from the West for example? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[809] Well it's got two two purposes |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[810] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[811] rather than I think differentiate the sort of primary. [812] I think the pr if there has to be a primary purpose it is a actually to take out the traffic which doesn't belong in Harrogate |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[813] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[814] or Knaresborough [...] at all, which is the primary both routes are part of the primary route network, the national network er and feel it's not appropriate for for that traffic to be passing through the urban area. [815] Now that element there was an element if you're making a note of figures, we didn't do the A sixty one south in case you |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[816] No yeah [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[817] we missed out some traffic through traffic. [818] Erm there's the A sixty one south again where there is another two thousand three hundred vehicles heading in which is totally through |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[819] Yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[820] Harrogate on the A six from the A sixty one. [821] But clearly the it forms two purposes, one is to remove the er the through traffic but also it it forms a purpose of redistribution of the traffic such that er there are er benefits er of getting er traffic off the A sixty one which for example is headed for the for the northern part of Harrogate and that that can come in from the South, it can go up to the A fifty nine and then come back into the northern part of Harrogate without having to pass through the centre of Harrogate. [822] And that's a sort of fairly normal function of a of any bypass is to particularly of a larger er urban area as opposed to say a village or a small town is to have connecti connections in er to the to the larger urban area at a number of points. [823] Just to spread the traffic |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[824] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[825] and to provide benefits er for that local traffic as well as for the through traffic. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[826] Yeah, so you'd anticipate some coming in on the A fifty nine, if you went that far north, |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[827] Yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[828] erm and other traffic would come in from on the B six one six two. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[829] That is the only other other connection, yes. [830] And that |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[831] [...] yes. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[832] there and perhaps coming on to the [...] Residents' Association point that [...] made in their proof, that our forecasts actually show that on balance, er er there would be an increase in flow in fact on the on that route as it approaches the A sixty one. [833] That what you get in terms of the the effect is that some traffic er will go out to use er the western relief road, to head north or south, and will no longer use the [...] road to get into Harrogate. [834] Er particular there is er a commercial business area at Harlow c court er located on the the western fringe er which clearly at the moment, a lot of our traffic will have to use [...] Road to get into Harrogate and to access to the A sixty one. [835] Now a significant part of that traffic will in the future or with such a road, er make use of that and would no longer have to use [...] Road. [836] Er there are major plans as well as I understand it, Mr can confirm, for extension of that or expansion of that area, already agreed in the local plan. [837] And clearly that would be of benefit er to [...] Road in terms of relieving the pressure from that traffic. [838] There is a plus in that there is extra traffic [...] c would come in and use [...] Road to gain access to Harrogate. [839] But it's a question of pluses and minuses. [840] The figures that we've produced show that on balance er it it's about a neutral effect on [...] Road er through the residential area because of this er reductions due to traffic going out to join the relief road rather than joining the A sixty one. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[841] Have you evaluated the relative costs and benefits ... of ... an eastern relief road as opposed to the western relief road? [842] I'm playing devil's advocate again. [843] It seems to me that given that you have a southern bypass, there could be an argument for saying, if we had a northern inner relief road, that northern inner relief road together with a southern bypass, could perform some of the functions of the western relief road. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[844] Yes we're back to the inner inner northern routes aren't we? [845] Erm |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[846] Have you evaluated this option ? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[847] We did we did evaluate that option er as part of the er early assessments, I don't have the results today. [848] Er but certainly it wasn't as effective er as a western relief road. [849] Er it is er significantly further er via a southern bypass and an inner relief road than it is via a western relief road. [850] And it wasn't as effective but other than that I can't I don't have the sort of the detailed information to er to refer to. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[851] When you say it wasn't as effective, in what what sense wasn't it as effective. [852] I mean wasn't was it less attractive [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[853] It was less attractive to traffic. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[854] to say the through traffic element erm erm didn't didn't function as well in terms of distributing traffic around the network which wanted to access. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[855] It didn't er it is a difficult for me because I don't have the figures er but er Mr er my assistant who er er did do the detailed work, er tells me that it didn't provide as much traffic relief to the A sixty one as did a western relief. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[856] I'm quite happy for Mr to comment direct if he wishes. |
| mr alan williams (PS3YX) |
[857] Sir, Alan , North Yorkshire County Council. [858] Er during the [...] stages er we did look at ways of er providing relief to the A sixty one erm by er using the southern bypass and then any of the inner northern routes. [859] And in doing so we looked at er other routes than shown on that plan there in order to encourage traffic to use those options. [860] Er by effectively where we've got the er combination of colours joining on to the southern bypass, we looked at moving that in a westerly direction to encourage that movement. [861] Er I honestly can't remember what the the breakdown on the figures are but er even by moving that inner route [...] direction er we were unable er within the traffic model to actually er encourage so much re as much relief on the A sixty one [...] what the actual figures were I haven't got them to hand sir at the moment. [862] But we did look at that as er as an option. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[863] Can you remember for example, given the the levels of relief you are advocating are acceptable on the blue route, how such roads such a link as an alternative to the western link would perform. |
| mr alan williams (PS3YX) |
[864] Yeah I I ca I haven't got the [...] to hand. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[865] I don't think [...] |
| mr alan williams (PS3YX) |
[866] I'm sorry |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[867] I don't think we'd like to er comment on that without |
| mr alan williams (PS3YX) | [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[868] er I think further notice and having having a look at the figures. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[869] I you have not said it would not meet the Department of Transports criteria for financial support for example. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[870] No. [871] I don't have that er information to be able to er to give you today. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[872] Mr do you want to [...] |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[873] Terry , Harlow and [...] Ash Residents' Association. [874] Er two points at this stage. [875] Erm coming back to an original comment made by Mr . [876] As part of the er western relief road you said that the A sixty one north of Killinghall has in fact a very poor accident record. [877] Er and you actually acknowledged my comments about the hairpin bends and the crossroads. [878] And is is not a fact that in fact the Killinghall bypass and the Ripon bypass, in fact does nothing to in fact i er alleviate those particular problems over about a seven mile stretch. [879] And is it not therefore necessary if you're going to justify this western relief road and quote your own words, as a key link to the north, that will there have to do further work in order to make that road acceptable. [880] Otherwise you will be increasing the accident risks by directing traffic in that way. [881] And finally, surely at this present moment, only four miles east of Harrogate and about three miles east of Ripon the A s A one is at this very moment in time being lifted to an acceptable standard A motorway standard at this stage and not in the year two thousand which is what you're talking about for this road. [882] And finally Mr chairman on this point, we did in fact do some checking to see the sense of using what the county planning committee had recommended to the H er Highways and Transport Committee that they should regard the six five eight, A five nine one as the correct link to the A one. [883] Six of our residents took part in a driving exercise and we demonstrated that clearly and this is for your benefit we'll give it to you, although it's three miles longer to the point where the A sixty one joins the A one, even with the present state of the A one, it is ten minutes quicker to go via the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one route. [884] It is much easier and it's much safer and it strikes me to to be making the case for a western relief road to provide the relief north to the A one, has already been achieved on the six five eight. [885] Er that's my first point on that, the second point on the same issue of the financial case [...] justification. [886] In the original case that was put forward, the basis of the economical assessment and its traffic flows, was on the western relief road being the first to be built. [887] The case in fact that was put forward by the North Yorkshire County Council Highways and Traffic committee was in fact that the need as so clearly expressed by Mr is that it is the A fifty nine that needs the relief more than anything else an therefore the proposal is that the northern relief road be it an inner or an outer, be built first. [888] Particularly because in your own words, the accident relief it will [...] . [889] Have you therefore reassessed the western relief road's benefits on the base that y you will have now at that point in time both a southern A fifty nine, A one link and a southern northern link, if you want it for the A sixty one north of Harrogate. [890] Now have these figures been reassessed at all? [891] Thank you Mr chairman. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[892] The A six five eight [...] includes the i in your terminology includes the the er recently opened southern relief road doesn't it? |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[893] I'm sorry Mr chairman I w |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[894] The A six five eight is the is also |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[895] Is the southern bypass. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[896] inclusive of the southern bypass. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[897] Is the southern bypass. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[898] Yes. [899] Yes. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[900] Erm that's the diagram. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[901] Yes. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[902] There's some more information on the back which I'd like to come to later. [903] That's the actual diagram of the timetables. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[904] Does he want one I haven't I haven't I haven't ... |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[905] Perhaps while Mr is studying er that piece of paper, I could ask Mr a question? [906] You said at the beginning of the debate on this matter, you supported an orbital relief road system. [907] Can I ask why? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[908] Yes chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. [909] Erm the question of the need for or the need for an orbital route has been put to our members on a number of occasions. [910] er most recently in nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one. [911] The main reason is obviously as I said earlier in my in my erm summary of my statement, to reduce congestion, reduce delays, to reduce accidents and to give scope for environmental improvements within the urban area. [912] If you don't have the full orbital system then you don't get the full scale of relief that we're seeking. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[913] But you have less roads and therefore less ... environmental damage where those roads pass. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[914] Certainly it's the case that there's a a down side if you like with providing the new roads through what is mostly open countryside. [915] We in com in coming to a view on the principle of an orbital system, looked at erm those issues in very general terms and clearly erm we'll will through the process of either a planning application or the local plan and i would say at this point that we we already have er a member commitment to include the preferred option of the County Council within the local plan as we move forward to our consultation draft next year, we would obviously look more rigorously at the the pros and cons of er particular road schemes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[916] But you think the environmental benefits of the western relief road outweigh its dis-benefits? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[917] The environmental benefits taken together with the reductions in congestion and traffic [...] and accidents, outweigh the environmental dis-benefits, yes. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[918] Thank you. ... |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[919] If I could add there, subject to the proviso that erm I mentioned earlier that the western relief road is pursued on the basis of a single carriageway road. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[920] Thank you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[921] Mr ? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[922] Yes thank you chairman. [923] Er in fact I have now, Mr has found the er the report which has actually got the traffic assessment e that we've just been referring to which is er no western relief road but with in an inner northern road. [924] And in fact that showed no relief to the A sixty one at all in that it was quicker for traffic to actually pass er through on the A sixty one going to the to the traffic model and the all the assumptions built into it, er than it was to use a southern bypass er out to the inner northern route and then back to the A sixty one south of Killinghall. [925] And so we didn't actually get any relief to the A sixty one in that particular test. [926] Now clearly that you know this is a the the model that we have is a daily one, it is a twelve hour model. [927] Er but we could have run assessments at peak times compared to off peak times [...] probably got slightly different effects at peak times. [928] Er I would accept that. [929] Er but in the way that we assessed er all of these options and which again is fairly normal for you know, major relief road bypasses, er it was indicating er that it wouldn't provide any relief to the A sixty one. [930] And I'm not saying that's the reason [...] but clearly that is [...] er factor and and certainly some of the points we were making about distribution of traffic er on the western side of harrogate er clearly that wouldn't have had the benefits of providing that that connection on the western side, it would have concentrated all connections between Harrogate and Knaresborough and given rise to more concentrated local traffic effects in that area than would be the case er with an outer western er relief road. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[931] [...] Mr first, then Mr |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[932] Sorry. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[933] All I wanted to know sir was which page Mr was on, I I'll comment later I just want to know which page it is please. [934] I've got the [...] |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[935] We're not on a page. [936] Oh [...] . [937] Right. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[938] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) |
[939] Er ... it's a plan rather than a page. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[940] Right. ... |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[941] Mr before you [...] that one [...] was a question that [...] but could you pick up the questions which Mr raised. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[942] Yeah certainly sir. [943] ... The er the first point as i understand is is with regard to use of the the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one as opposed to the er using a western relief road, that being er a more appropriate route. [944] In fact erm we have clearly in terms of the of the southern bypass is in place er and and also the A one, er there are two other schemes we do have in place so in terms of doing travel times and seeing er which is the quickest route we have to to some extent er Well we rely upon the traffic model. [945] But there are two factors er that come into play, one is the A one motorway proposals, er the other is the Ripon bypass which is currently under construction as well which we're also reviewing. [946] [...] a blockage a significant blockage on the A sixty one [...] increase journey times or reduce journey times on the A sixty one as opposed to southern bypass and A one. [947] But we did recognize that in opening the southern bypass, it would have an effect on traffic pattern. [948] Er the work that I've referred to earlier in terms of the through traffic, was assessed before the southern bypass was open er and so we did put in place er a traffic automatic traffic counters on a number of key routes er to see whether on opening of the southern bypass, the actual effects er where the same as we were modelling cos clearly we were concerned that we didn't want to be er basing our assessments of of of of further relief roads on a false premise. [949] Er and so we did we did we did look at the traffic flows and monitor them. [950] We monitored them for a period of about twelve months before we reported to members on the outcome. [951] Er and that er in my view anyway demonstrated that we'd got it about right in terms of our assessment of the effects of the Southern Bypass. [952] Er there was very little effect on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate or to the north of Harrogate, the sorts of traffic flows that we had prior the southern bypass are still there. [953] There hasn't been a switch from the A using the A sixty one er to get across to the A one using the southern bypass, that just hasn't happened in practice. [954] There's a very small difference of two and a half percent which Mr refers to in his proof as being a change er in the figures which I would accept. [955] Indeed I've included as you'll know in table two to my statement, er the effects of the of the southern bypass. [956] There is a very small change on the A sixty one of two and a half percent. [957] That really is within the er the grounds for error in any traffic count. [958] Er indeed nationally there has been in the last twelve months, a three percent er reduction in traffic flows in any event. [959] Erm so that response to using the southern bypass [...] the A one, certainly some traffic might find that heading north will find that attractive. [960] But it hasn't been reflected in traffic flows on the A sixty one to date. [961] And some of the traffic of course isn't heading A one north of the A sixty one. [962] There is quite a lot of local traffic er I say local, is heading for the area you know, north of Harrogate er erm to er to the Dales, er to Ripon er and points between Harrogate er and the A one to the north. [963] Er on on the question of the A sixty one itself erm and the remaining sections that need to be improved, which again will make it more attractive compared with the A one. [964] There the Ripon bypass which is under construction, I mentioned. [965] The Killinghall bypass er does bypass some of the severe bends of at the southern ends. [966] I accept that there are then still there is still a section er of six or seven miles between that improvement and Ripon. [967] Er there is a scheme in fact on our reserve list of of major schemes for that section of road. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[968] This is the bit [...] going past [...] isn't it. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[969] Yeah. [970] Well the bit just past Ripley no will be bypassed by the by the Killinghall er section. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[971] Mm. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[972] As you'll see from the |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[973] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[974] erm well no actually that's It's not the line on the green dots because that's a er er an older plan, but is in fact it's shown better on the er the aerial photograph where you can see the the currently preferred or the preferred route for the northern outer northern route, er and the link up to the A sixty one to the north. [975] You can see that that now is quite a substantial length of new road er which in fact er does bypass the Ripley roundabout er and goes some distance to the north on the A sixty one where it rejoins. [976] Er but the major capitol programme but has not yet been included arrows, E |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[977] Mr 's second question related to the ... question of whether rows, E |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[978] Yes we have. [979] Er and that showed er in fact when we reported to members in July of this year, we were seeking from them er an indication as to the priority of the phasing because prior to that and in fact it's reflected in the structure plan, we simply have a a scheme for A fifty nine, A sixty one relief roads, they're not broken down into the two schemes. [980] Er as the schemes progressed forward in the programme, we need to break those down into manageable packages er to progress them sensibly through the the various stages. [981] Er and erm we did for that er report er as indeed in fact we had earlier in any event, we'd looked at them separately, we haven't simply put in an orbital route, we had assessed in the traffic model er as separate schemes. [982] Er and we found at that earlier stage, they acted largely independently. [983] Er the the one had very little effect on the other. [984] The A fifty nine relief road had very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate and vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate. [985] And vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on the A fifty nine. [986] Er we did that exercise again er to advise members on which had priority, so we did assessments with a southern bypass clearly already there, with a northern relief road in place, assessed that against the situation with no western relief road. [987] And similarly for the western er and that er report was used to er to advise members on priorities. [988] But there was still you know a substantial It was more or less the same case as we had before in terms of the traffic relief that each afforded and the economic rates of return. [989] We weren't getting er traffic which would otherwise be on the western relief road going along the southern bypass and then round the northern bypass to get back to the A sixty one. [990] Clearly it it wouldn't do that, it's twenty two kilometres further than actually staying on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate. [991] We would have great difficulty persuading traffic to do it. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[992] Your northern road was the blue route was it? [993] She said, feeling like a terrier attacking a bone . |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[994] That's right. [995] Yes yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[996] You didn't do a similar assignment for the inner route north? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[997] Well cl clearly not in July of this year because |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[998] No. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[999] as far as the committee was concerned there is they've taken a decision on the preferred route, but we did as I've just referred to in the earlier work, er we did assess that erm and that showed again er that the traffic wouldn't transfer from the A sixty one onto a southern bypass and a [...] inner northern relief road. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1000] Well Mr sorry [...] |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[1001] I'd just like to comment on this this matter |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1002] Name name please. [laugh] |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[1003] George . [1004] Speaking this time for [...] Residents' Association. [1005] I'd like to comment on this matter of the relationship between the western relief road and a possible inner northern relief road. [1006] I have tried to e ascertain which particular diagram in this report Mr was quote quoting from. [1007] I think I I've found the report er the particular map. [1008] If I have,e I have to say that I don't think that the particular version of the inner northern route had its junction with the southern bypass moved to the west. [1009] Which would obviously be a necessary change to make if it was going to relieve the western bypass. [1010] That's my understanding but it is based on shuffling t right. [1011] So so I think there could be some improvement there. [1012] M more importantly, the technique which is used for predicting traffic flows which the County Council ha have used. [1013] U uses what is called an all or nothing assignment. [1014] Which means that it assigns all the traffic to the shortest route. [1015] Er the cheapest route I should say, it's an amalgam of erm travel time and cost. [1016] Now if it so happened that the A sixty one was seen as a marginally shorter route, then the model would have sent all the through traffic along the A s sixty one and none along around the bypass. [1017] It wouldn't have taken as Mr has pointed out, any cognizance of the fact that there's difference for different times of the day, nor would it have taken any account of the fact that people would perceive the travel times and travel costs in different ways. [1018] That brings me onto another point which is made in the panel's submission that people have talked all the time about the limits of traffic management on the A sixty one as if the objective of traffic management was to get through Harrogate quicker. [1019] Now that's not what we are suggesting. [1020] If you made it a little more difficult for through traffic to go through Harrogate, that would encourage traffic to divert to whichever relief road that you had and it would achieve an environmental objective at relatively little cost. [1021] What I'm suggesting is that it ought to be possible to design an inner northern relief road with an appropriate junction and with appropriate traffic managements in the centre of Harrogate so that you can encourage a significant proportion of the traffic that would otherwise have used the western relief road to divert to the southern bypass and inner relief road. [1022] I cannot prove that but I do not think that the tests which have been carried out by the County Council refute that possibility. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1023] Any comment Mr ? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1024] Mr is is correct in in saying that er the diagram doesn't show er shows it on that line which clearly was the line was the comment point for all the inner routes at that time, but as Mr said. [1025] we did actually try as part of those tests although not reflected in that particular figure, er moving it to see whether we could encourage that er a different effect. [1026] Er er and and and that wasn't the case. [1027] I think I think I go back to this point about I think in concept anyway I'm not happy about er a proposition that er that function is performed or I can see the disadvantages significant disadvantages in having the traffic er for both the A sixty one er and the A fifty nine c and its links into Harrogate and Knaresborough, concentrated on that er on on inner northern line. [1028] I can see real problems er on the A fifty nine for example of traffic coming back into Harrogate or into Knaresborough er from that er from that junction on the A fifty nine. [1029] It's far better in my view to have a f a more balanced er distribution of the traffic er that you achieve by having er a separate route for the A sixty one to the west. [1030] Because it does mean then that that traffic er on the western side of Harrogate can get out to the western relief road as there's no need then to go on the urban roads in Harrogate. [1031] And that wouldn't be the case er with er with some of the er with with the option that's being put forward. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[1032] I'm not asking for a lesson on highway modelling particularly at half past four ... in the afternoon but ... what's your reaction to what Mr said about the way in which your model would perform in other words on an all or nothing basis, when it's shorter it all goes that way? [1033] ... Regardless of how much ongoing that way. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1034] Yeah. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[1035] Or perceptions of how much time it takes |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1036] Right. |
| d whittaker (PS3YW) |
[1037] actually change. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1038] Again in any traffic model there are pluses and minuses, the simplistic assumption is and it's it's a common techniques used in in in in traffic models er for for schemes of this type er that you do use all or nothing. [1039] there are other techniques. [1040] Er traffic is spread around er in that the area is divided into a number of zones, so when you talk about er shortest route and all traffic being assigned, then certainly in terms of the a lot of the local traffic and the through traffic in terms of where it's loaded into the model, each individual journey between A and B between each zone A and each zone B is loaded onto its shortest point. [1041] But there are a lot of A to Bs loaded onto the the network. [1042] Er and therefore the the overall effect is a more of spreading the traffic than simply it all appearing on one route. [1043] Having said that in the case of a of a a of a through movement, I accept that we are loading at at the traffic in at the A sixty one if you like and it's coming out at the A sixty one north. [1044] And therefore there can be a more marked effect as a result of this this all or nothing technique. [1045] Er clearly when we have got that situation, we don't just simply put the numbers in and press the button and you get the answer out at the end, er the people who er did this for us at the time, er are professional er transportation consultants er and given that the key er one of the key outputs from this model was the effect of a er a bypass, then this is something that we looked at in in some detail as well as er the actual effects that the model was putting out. [1046] Now you know, having said that I accept that if we did a peak hour model and an off peak model we would have shown different effects. [1047] it's a more broad brush appro approach. [1048] That we that we have to look at these at this stage of the scheme. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) | [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1049] Mr . |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[1050] George ,s sorry. [1051] I I want to say er t two things. [1052] I think Chris and I are are in agreement e about the technical issues here. [1053] Erm I'm simply saying that there is a possibility of a an inner relief road taking some of the traffic, an inner northern relief road, taking some of the traffic that might otherwise have remained on the A sixty one. [1054] And not a technical matter but a policy matter, I think that the probabilities of it doing that could be er increased by traffic calming measures on the A sixty one to make it take longer to go through Harrogate that way. [1055] However what I want to emphasize is that [...] Residents' Association's case is not does not rely on an inner northern route acting as a an alternative to a western rel route. [1056] The main part of [...] Residents' Association case is that the amount of relief afforded by any western relief road, does not justify the environmental damage which that road will cause. [1057] I respect er the view that was put to me in the extract from P P G twelve, but i nevertheless think that this is a matter of principle because it doesn't apply to a particular res western route, it applies to all the western routes. [1058] It is the [...] Association that all the western routes cause severe environmental damage. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1059] Mr |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1060] Terry , [...] Residents' Association. [1061] Er two points, one comes onto environment for Mr who says that they are seeking for the environmental benefits to the A sixty one and relates something to the percentages. [1062] Erm I don't understand [...] and all of that but what we quickly did, we assessed the seven thousand er and the actual environmental benefit means instead of a vehicle every three point five seconds on the A sixty one, there'll only be one every four point eight seconds. [1063] And I would like to ask and if you know anything about the the topography of Harrogate, the second er most attractive feature of this town after the Nidd Gorge is in fact [...] . [1064] A volcanic crag with a superb wo wood face to is with many footpaths through it. [1065] The present road and I don't want to get into the detail of it but relate it to environmental costs against the so called benefits, would in fact cut right through there with a viaduct and it would actually start of on something like a twenty seven foot emba er a twenty seven foot high embankment and with a fifty four deep cutting. [1066] And what I would like to ask in in this environmental age that we live in, for a benefit to the people on the A sixty one, for a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds, using your own figures, how can you justify and quantify the cost of the environmental damage that will be done to what is regarded as the finest visual attractive side of Harrogate. [1067] [...] Valley, [...] Beck, [...] Crag and right next to in fact in this particular line, I have to say this, next to Gardens which is a both an international and national recognized er facility in this er in our envir in our town which attracts many many visitors. [1068] And would be seriously undermined by any proposed road that will come in on the western side. [1069] And I just don't know Mr chairman how they quantify that kind of benefit in traffic flows on the A sixty one which is what they're trying to claim, against the environmental impact,. [1070] Notwithstanding we do not believe as we've already said that flows of traffic justify and coming if I may er before Mr answers to give him time to think about it, to the figures from Mr . [1071] He quotes that in fact the accuracy of their predictions and forecasts would suggest that they are. [1072] And I again don't understand these figures because I take from table two and I see the A sixty one er reading going from twenty four thousand to nineteen thousand on the opening of the bypass. [1073] I also find that he's been quoting some twelve hour figures and the only ones I have, you may have them er Mr chairman, are from the H and T C report in July of last year where they forecasted four thousand nine hundred on the A six five eight and achieve eight thousa for nineteen ninety six and achieved eight thousand one hundred now. [1074] A sixty percent increase of traffic on the A six five eight. [1075] Those don't seem to correspond with [...] suggestion of the tight close proximity of your figures. [1076] In fact, finally on the actually opening of the complete phase the er the increase on the six five eight was on the completion at that lower section, was in fact a sixty percent increase from six thousand to nine thousand. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1077] Mr are you going to pick up the first point and then Mr . |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[1078] Cer certainly chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. [1079] Clearly it's it's very difficult to er to be very specific about this sort of thing. [1080] After a after all what we're talking about is is what er a subjective assessment. [1081] Erm our members and the County members have come to a a a judgement and a decision based on all that information, all the information that you you have just mentioned to this E I P. [1082] We we've looked at the implication of a r a western route. [1083] We've looked at the benefits that would accrue from providing traffic relief along the A sixty one corridor. [1084] W that has all been quantified as as best it can through all the various reports and very detailed information that's been provided for for members. [1085] And they've come to a judgement on those issues and their judgement is that erm they s should support the principle of a western route. [1086] I can't really say any more as to how they themselves have come to come to their particular judgement, but that is the judgement of the members. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1087] Mr chairman? |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1088] Yes Mr . |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1089] Terry , [...] . [1090] I take it that you're not disputing then that the change in the traffic flows that I've indicated would actually what would be achieved? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[1091] Well I don't dispute, I've no information myself. [1092] I'm not I don't necessarily want to dispute them erm all I would say is that we have to look at the implications [...] don't just look at the change in the traffic flows and take them as a as a point, you have to look at the implications of those changes in traffic flows. [1093] My understanding is that change of traffic flows along the A sixty one, through Harrogate and Knaresborough will or through Harrogate anyway, will allow significant improvements to the environment to be to be attained through for example erm pedestrian er refuges on on the roads through i er allowing er pedestrian er priority areas. [1094] We can look at erm increased public transport, use of cyclist lanes, that sort of thing. [1095] So th there is plenty of scope erm to look at improvements for pedestrian cyclists and the im environments in general. [1096] Very difficult to quantify them at this stage but certainly it's it's my advice that er there will be distinct improvements in the environment. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1097] Are you Sorry, Terry , [...] Residents' Association. [1098] Erm are you saying then that erm ... you have actually quantified and and related that in some way to the the damage which has been evident through all of the statements from Harrogate Borough Council, to in fact the N Y C C and acknowledged by the N Y C of the environmental impact that this will have. [1099] Er that all of that has actually been quantified in financial terms to be expressed against the simple value of the gains that you're talking about. [1100] And if I may Mr chairman, something that's happened in the last few days, that's er evident that er the [...] been the first satellite survey in this country ever which is now beginning to show to the nation, just in fact the damage that roads have been doing and that there's in fact now some suggestion from government that they may be rethinking some elements of these roads, because the environmental impact has not really been taken into account as effectively before. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[1101] No I'm saying precisely the opposite, David , Harrogate Borough Council. [1102] It's very difficult to quantify those sorts of effects and er to members and the decision makers have to come to a judgement as best they can, given the information that's before them. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1103] I take the point Mr , I don't think you're going to get a different answer from Mr on this one. [1104] Mr do you want to come back on Mr 's comment about traffic flows ? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1105] Yes. [1106] On the traffic flows, yes yes. [1107] I mean I just if I can just add to that er last debate about the the the the effects in terms of er vehicles every so many minutes or seconds. [1108] Er clearly what we're saying is that that there would be a thirty percent reduction on the A sixty one either side of the town centre. [1109] That i is a significant reduction in traffic flows. [1110] Erm one of the points that hasn't been mentioned in terms of the benefits [...] discussed earlier is that the forecasts are that n because of the horrendous accident record of the A sixty one, that transfer of thirty percent of the traffic onto a high standard, modern and much safer road, will result in a reduction in between seven hundred and a thousand people er being injured on the A sixty one during the thirty year er lifespan of the western relief road. [1111] That is the forecast in the papers. [1112] That is a substantial benefit er to the community. [1113] And that includes our estimate based on current statistics, between fourteen and seventeen fatalities. [1114] ... Just on the on on the figures er Sir in terms of table two er that Mr refers to, the ... er the figures for the A sixty one, I think there perhaps is some confusion here. [1115] You'll see that we have attached a diagram er which shows the location of the traffic counts that Mr I think is referring to in table two. [1116] Here is a diagram that shows the locations and you'll see that on the A sixty one, we have three er permanent traffic counters recording traffic flows. [1117] Er five, six and seven. [1118] Five is to the north of Killinghall and you'll see from the table attached, table two that er prior to the opening of the phase one of the bypasses, it was opened in two phases between the A sixty one and the six six one in the southern half was opened first. [1119] And then the the final bypass was completed. [1120] You'll see that at [...] point five er there was very little change on the in the A sixty one flow er following the opening of the bypass [...] this is some months er afterwards. [1121] Erm at point six which is in the centre of Harrogate, again you'll see there was virtually er no change in [...] five hundred vehicles a day in twenty one thousand. [1122] Er and the point that er Mr 's referring to as point seven, which is the A sixty one [...] . [1123] Now the reason for the five thousand reduction there is that there is traffic or there was traffic that previously er came up the A sixty one but then went along Follyfoot Road which is the road you'll see on the plan which parallels the southern bypass, and that is why up that very short section er there was this reduction er which was heading for points to the east, which clearly went on then to the southern bypass. [1124] But in terms of the effect of a western relief road, it's clearly is more critical is the the flows in the centre of Harrogate and to the north. [1125] As to whether of this longer distance traffic was being diverted around the southern bypass. [1126] The other point on the increase in the A six five eight six five eight fl is at point thirteen, er yes there has there was an increase of three thousand vehicles a day, er on that road with the opening of the Southern bypass. [1127] That clearly has proved to be attractive from other routes outside this immediate area with the opening of the southern bypass. [1128] So sorry I'm looking at the wrong the wr that is the southern bypass. [1129] ... Yes the flow sorry, point thirteen and fourteen, thirteen is on the southern bypass, I thought Mr was referring to another flow which |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1130] No no. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1131] we don't have in this table, it's on the A six five eight. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1132] You were referring to tw sorry you were referring to twelve hour flows which [...] |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1133] Mm. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1134] part of the documentation I received, so I presume you're extracting it from the H and T report of the second of July nineteen ninety two. [1135] Ninety three rather. [1136] Which is the only twelve hour You actually quoted the eight thousand figure earlier on. [1137] Er it was something that you brought in into the discussion so I |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1138] About the through traffic er element |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1139] No. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1140] I was talking about twelve hour because the surveys that we did in eighty nine were |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1141] Yeah. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1142] twelve hour base and were were |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1143] So that's in |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1144] [...] figures I was quoting [...] |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1145] [...] sorry. [1146] So in in response you said that they they were [...] for accuracy and I pointed out to you that that at site thirteen there was a sixty percent error from your forecast for three years hence, nineteen ninety six and what is in fact being achieved at this very moment in time. [1147] So it quite clearly there's traffic going on to there that doesn't [...] with what you're saying. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1148] Er yes we with the the [...] the prediction, phase one we didn't predict the partial opening of the bypass clearly before we did it, that was just how it happened in practice. [1149] The the forecast of there was nine thousand on the er bypass when it was completed fully to the A fifty nine. [1150] So it's not the six thousand figure, that that's not really relevant as I see it to the debate about the forecast because that was simply a partial opening [...] the bypass. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1151] Mr chairman, er Terry again from [...] . [1152] Er Mr has referred to site number five which was the A six one north of Killinghall and because we've already had this discussion, I would presume the inner relief road would have dramatically changed those figures there. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1153] The inner relief road would have changed the figures. [1154] Erm I'm not sure |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1155] Well it's north of Killinghall and therefore travelling in towards the town [...] seeking to go round is what you're saying. [1156] If you had the inner relief road those figures would in fact therefore change quite dramatically in the same way that the A sixty one figures have changed. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1157] Well the fact that we had certainly at point six which is in the centre of the urban area which is where we clearly we're mainly concerned about is where most of the accidents for example are happening. [1158] Erm the effect was that that er on on on on the assessment we did at the time, that it wouldn't have affected flows on the A sixty one in the centre of Harrogate. [1159] That was the assessment that we that we did, it didn't show any [...] effect on that er on the A sixty one [...] critical part through the urban area. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1160] I think the point that Mr is making if I read him correctly is that is you had an inner relief road, [...] in fact it would siphon off traffic from the A sixty one going south from say the Killinghall bypass or relief road. [1161] And wouldn't w and could be redistributed round the network. [1162] That's the point isn't it Mr ? |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1163] It is indeed Mr . |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1164] I I I thought we'd covered that one actually Mr . |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1165] I'm sorry. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1166] Yeah, it's alright. [1167] Er before you come in Mr , erm I don't know how many more points you want to raise on this [...] to erm we have another session which starts at five thirty. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1168] So Mr and then Mr . |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[1169] Thank you. [1170] George , [...] Residents. [1171] ... I want to start by emphasizing again that er ... I consider that the amount of traffic relief afforded to the A sixty one would be relatively low. [1172] Given that it's relatively low, the small adjustments that I'm about to talk about assume greater significance. [1173] The County Council has always said that the western relief road would produce a reduction of thirty one percent in the amount of traffic on the A sixty one immediately north and south of the town centre. [1174] However, what I have done is to use detailed assignment printouts given to me by the County Council, it's erm these things here, to look at the changes in traffic flow along the whole length of the A sixty one between its southern junction with a proposed western relief road and its northern junction with a western relief road. [1175] And I have averaged out the changes over all the various sections of the A sixty one. [1176] And I calculate that the average change over the whole length of the A sixty one is a little lower at twenty seven percent, it's not a lot though, it's a little lower at twenty seven percent. [1177] If we then take the effect which the southern bypass appears to have had, on the A sixty one, a two and a half percent reduction, we are then down to something marginally under twenty five percent. [1178] I do not intend these figures to be taken as strictly accurate estimates, clearly they can't be. [1179] They simply give some indication of the level of relief. [1180] In other words if there's nothing wrong with the modelling technique, even then the level of re relief is perhaps something closer to twenty five percent over the A sixty one as a whole. [1181] I would like to in that context, I would like to ask both Mr and Mr as question. [1182] In section six of my submission on behalf of Residents I refer to the environmental impact of traffic flow changes on existing roads. [1183] And I draw on the same manual of environmental appraisal that erm Mr has mentioned in in his evidence, the Department of Transport's manual. [1184] It in many instances it isn't specific about levels of traffic reduction which are significant. [1185] But it does mention them in at least two contexts, one is when you're measuring noise when it says that changes of twenty five percent should be recorded. [1186] I accept that. [1187] it's very clear, that's right at the bottom end of what they think should be recorded and until this recent manual p was published, it changes that low were not recorded. [1188] Secondly it says that for pedestrian severance, that changes have to be of the degree of thirty percent before they become s significant. [1189] Now I have had er quite a lot of experience in the environmental analysis of er road proposals and their effect on existing roads. [1190] On the basis of that experience, I think that the western relief road doesn't achieve very much environmental relief to existing roads. [1191] But I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it, that's why I'm drawing on the Department's manual which confirms my own experience. [1192] Which seems to indicate that there is a bottom level of something like twenty five to thirty percent before the amount of environmental relief begins to be even slight. [1193] That's my reason for saying that I don't think the western relief road gives very much environmental relief to the A sixty one. [1194] Would both Mr and Mr like to comment on that. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1195] Who wants to bat first. |
| Unknown speaker (J9UPSUNK) | [...] |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1196] Mr . |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1197] I'm very much aware I've not been saying my name each time I've been speaking but probably too late now. [1198] [laugh] Erm ... well the the first point probably to make is that this er the manual that er Mr refers to was only published in June of this year er and clearly in terms of the information that er has been put in the statement [...] , that was based upon the previous way of assessing the impact. [1199] Having said that, as Mr 's pointed out, in fact the new manual if anything er emphasizes the benefits more than it did previously because as you said, previously it required a fifty percent reduction in traffic to register a one decibel change in noise levels which was s perceived to be significant. [1200] Er it's now in this latest manual that's just been published, is saying twenty five percent and clearly er the road achieves that so there is significant benefit as a result er in in that measure of of noise. [1201] And that's I'm sure to be welcomed. [1202] Er whether it's er slight moderate or substantial er i is er I say is irrelevant but there certainly is significant benefit as a result of er of thirty percent reduction. [1203] Er in terms of pedestrian severance again, the new manual er refers to thirty percent and I would certainly argue that er in the significant areas of pedestrian movement we have er we're getting er reductions of that er magnitude. [1204] Er I think er it's easy to talk about taking off two and a half percent here and there, I could probably put forward a number of reasons why it could add on two and a half percent, five percent to the figures and indeed I'd be very disappointed if at the end of the day, we didn't achieve er greater reductions because once you get out long distance through traffic, er whose prime purpose is to move from A to B as quickly as possible, once you do that it gives you the opportunity then of bringing in the sorts of measures to improve pedestrian safety, er to slow traffic down, introduce traffic calming, which you can't do on primary routes. [1205] But that this would no longer be a primary route [...] that status would be on the new road. [1206] We would therefore be able to bring in other measures which we haven't modelled so far er but that is also the guidance that you should bring in, not only nowadays you should not only look to build a bypass, you should look to complementary measures within the urban area. [1207] And certainly the County Council is committed to this transport package approach er and will be coming forward with measures in Harrogate to make sure that the benefits of the bypass are maximized. [1208] So as I say I would expect to see these percentages significantly increased erm. [1209] I think er that's probably all I want to say. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1210] Thank you. [1211] Mr do you want to pick up a point ? |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[1212] Yes chairman I've not not really got an awful lot to add to that. [1213] Erm I think the key point there that that Chris brought out was that it does allow the opportunity for further traffic restraint measures in the town centre. [1214] And it's a very and these are historic this is a h historic town centre. [1215] Very important to get the through traffic e and the traffic that's no right to be in the town centre, out of the town centre so that you can in incorporate these new measures. |
| mr g arrowsmith (PS3YT) |
[1216] Just George , just to respond to the two points that have just been made. [1217] I haven't made any adjustments to the figures to to get them lower. [1218] The change from thirty one percent to twenty seven percent was just a calculation by using all the information not taking specific points on the network. [1219] In fact there are changes considerably lower than that o actually in the town centre. [1220] In front of me I can see one link in the town centre where the improvement would only be twenty one percent. [1221] The second point that I want to make is I'm not denying that the western relief road would bring some improvement and if the western relief road did not damage did not cause serious environmental damage, I would not be arguing against it. [1222] I am arguing against it because on the one hand it brings about environmental improvements in the town centre which according to the latest published government information which as as Mr has has himself said,i is stricter th th than we had published previously. [1223] Even according to that it only brings about a slight improvement and yet, the new road causes b in in the words of the County Planning Officer, erm the Borough Council's own officers and the County Council's own environmental consultants, causes severe environmental damage. [1224] That's the equation that I'm setting I'm setting up. [1225] Severe damage from the new road against slight benefits on the existing road. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1226] Thank you Mr , a point which you've made consistently persistently for the last hour. [1227] Mr are these two concluding point because I I would like to [...] |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1228] Er they they are they are er er with our conclusions at the end. [1229] Erm the North Yorkshire County Council have made great play and we didn't know it was coming in until we got that information, upon the public consultation document. [1230] In the consultation document that was first put out to the public in nineteen ninety one, the public was only offered the yellow route. [1231] Simple statement of fact, it's there in document as part of your evidence. [1232] It wasn't a question of alternative routes, the grey routes were wiped out [...] said were not going to be considered. [1233] it is the yellow route and it is to provide a bypass. [1234] The second document that came out as a consultation document, simply led with the evidence that you've pe that you achieve by simply suggesting to people there was only a yellow route. [1235] For maybe just a momentary [...] at this moment Mr chairman at this time of day, it's rather like the carpet salesman saying to the lady, which one do you want, red, blue or green, not whether you want one or not. [1236] And I'm actually paraphrasing the chief executive of of North Yorkshire County Council there, Mr when on the two tier government. [1237] And I have to say that cos Mr can't answer that, that is how the western community of Harrogate felt when they saw the way that this public consultation document was led. [1238] And I don't want to wish to ask for them to answer that, that's just the view of the whole of our community, and it did prompt us and it's not on your records, over a thousand signatures were obtained proposing in fact what I'm about to conclude with. [1239] [...] on the en on the er environmental issue and the er assessments that have been made, we didn't raise the question of development, H B C did. [1240] They say it's not development led but if I can actually quote from all of these documents very very quickly. [1241] Five one, new roads will remove constraints of poor excess on sites which may otherwise be acceptable in planning terms. [1242] Five summary, relieve the pressure for development on more environmentally sensitive sites elsewhere. [1243] I would actually ask the Harrogate Borough Council, where are these more environmentally sensitive sites in Harrogate than the [...] Valley, the [...] Beck and the [...] Crag? [1244] Two two three, the new highway schemes may provide major development opportunities and for the two thousand and six town plan, the county will allocate sites which could benefit from new road access. [1245] Therefore what we are recognizing is that there would be developments on these roads Mr chairman, I would ask in fact in their assessments of their traffic flows and the environmental impact, has any of that element been taken into account? [1246] Besides just the impact environmentally of the road, and besides the traffic flows you could get, the generation of traffic that these roads in fact will bring with them [...] development. [1247] Er I'll do my conclusion at the en very end if want in my summation. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1248] I think we've got there unless Mr wants to make a response. |
| mr d allenby (PS3YV) |
[1249] Erm yes I will I will chairman just very briefly. [1250] Erm it has to be said that er new roads do o open up opportunities for development. [1251] We erm we've been discussing all last week the amount of housing that has to be accommodated in Harrogate District and in North Yorkshire as as a whole. [1252] We will have to find erm sites for that new housing. [1253] If a new road is propo proposed we have to look at the opportunities provided by that ro road. [1254] What we're not saying is that the the development er the road is development led. [1255] Or the need for the road is development led. [1256] We're simply saying is the new road does open up op opportunities within the urban area e even, for the release of sites which are constrained by poor access and via the amount of traffic passing along existing road corridors. [1257] Er there are two examples along the western route corridor of sites which I do refer to in in the statement, Hildebrand Barracks at [...] , an army camp which er is expected to be vacated in the near future, and Queen Ethelbergers which has been vacant now for for almost two years. [1258] Erm finding new uses for those built areas is very difficult because of the constraints of access. [1259] The western route if provided along that corridor would help in that situation and would mean that er other sites which are perhaps open countryside, don't have to be developed. [1260] Thank you chairman. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1261] Thank you. [1262] Mr would you like to sum up. |
| mr w terry byrne (PS3YU) |
[1263] Yes Mr . [1264] Er Terry , [...] Residents' Association. [1265] We believe from the evidence that's been presented today that in fact the justification of a western relief road as a means of a primary route north along the A sixty one to the A one has not been made. [1266] We are doubtful that the benefits of the inner distribution onto other roads and into particular the B six one six two which is the only access onto the western relief road as currently proposed between the A fifty nine and sixty one would generate further problems, onto a road which is only a two lane B road compared to an A l A road Sorry and A three lane road, that the environmental damage far outweighs in fact the so called benefits that are being claimed which nobody's disputed is only a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds. [1267] For the devastation of the western side of the town. [1268] So it our recommendation that it is premature at this pro frozen moment of time particularly with the additional thoughts of the inner northern relief road to be considering in a structure plan a western relief road. [1269] And at at at this point in time we do not t think it's appropriate that be be added in this amendment to the structure plan Mr chairman. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1270] Thank you Mr . [1271] Mr are you anything you feel applies to respond on or you feel you've stated your case? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1272] I think er I think the the points er in terms of the of the initial statement and summary of the position covers er most of the points that have been made. [1273] And perhaps er what has come out that perhaps is not reflected either in my initial statement or in the summary is this point about maximizing the benefits of the relief roads er through complementary measures within the urban area. [1274] Clearly that is very important and will be pursued. [1275] Er on the envi environmental aspect, I think it's worth emphasizing because clearly this is the major concern of both Scotton and er the [...] Residents' Association and [...] er that the County Council has and perhaps to some extent I think it's certainly the public consultations or the exercises I've been involved in at this stage in a major scheme has done far more work in trying to assess those effects than is normally the case at this stage in a ma major highway scheme. [1276] Er the County Council has employed specialist consultants in terms of landscape impact, in terms of ecological effects, in terms of archaeology, in terms of agriculture. [1277] All that work has been done in addition to the the traffic studies. [1278] Er we haven't spent a lot of time talking about some of those things today but it's all been done. [1279] That information was made available in summary form to the public in the leaflets, in more detail at the exhibitions. [1280] Er many members of the public took advantage of the offer of the more detailed appraisal er and indeed came in to look at the detailed consultants reports. [1281] They were all made available to members er of both the County Council and the Borough Council when they were making their decisions and they were fully aware of the impact these proposals would have. [1282] That's not to lessen the fact that there will be an impact, clearly there will be. [1283] It's this difficult balancing exercise between those effects and the benefits of the road. [1284] Er simply in terms of the impact, there is a lot more work to be done on that and we would do that in t in developing the scheme and bringing it forward to the next stage, to mitigate the adverse effects er that come about as a result of er construction of new roads. [1285] Thank you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1286] Thank you very much. [1287] Can I remind you on once more about the [...] please. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1288] Can I just one one final point there is e I did notice in my proof there was in in in typing there was one line I don't know if you noticed there was one line that was missed off the bottom of one of the pages, and if I can er either give that to you. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1289] Can you give it to the panel secretary? |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1290] Yes I will do yes. |
| mr e barnett (PS3YR) |
[1291] Can I say from the panel's point of view, thank you very much gentlemen for your contribution this afternoon. [1292] And Mr for his attendance. [1293] And contributions. [1294] Thank you. |
| mr mills (PS3YS) |
[1295] Thank you Mr . [tape change] |