BNC Text JJ7

Training session. Sample containing about 10748 words speech recorded in business context

6 speakers recorded by respondent number C524

PS446 X m (David, age unknown, trainer, further information not given) unspecified
PS447 X m (John, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS448 X m (Bill, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS449 X f (Rosie, age unknown, technical leader) unspecified
JJ7PSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
JJ7PSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 109301 recorded on 1993-11-20. LocationUnknown () Activity: Training session

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [1] Okay, welcome to 'Influencing Skills' we we always do the [...] fancy bits of, erm, whatever, I'll change the words this time, because I'm getting a bit bored with the way we normally do it, [...] name.
[2] Erm, what we'd like to know for for all of our sake's really, is who we are, and where we're from, what we're doing here, how long have we been doing whatever it is that we're doing here, erm where we come from, a little bit abo about our history, and any details, usual points, that you just [...] Er, my name's David.
[3] Perhaps I ought to explain why I've got Peter here.
[4] No Peter.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [5] Maybe not.
[6] Erm, Peter's not here, okay.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [7] Erm, Peter will be here tomorrow morning, he's unfortunately been called away to [...] er, today, and er, but he will be joining us tomorrow morning, early.
[8] So [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [9] No.
[10] He'll join us tomorrow morning, he'll join us tomorrow morning.
[11] Er, he sends his apologies [...] rather urgent [...] to get things sorted out.
[12] Erm, so let's explain why we can help Peter.
[13] My name is David .
[14] I'm a tutor here at er at the Manor.
[15] Er, I've been now for six and a half years, I think, at the last count, er, I know I've served just over half my sentence.
[16] So you can work it out now, how old I am [...] Erm, what I do, is I run training courses and er, they are Management Skills Courses, they are not anything to do with insurances, because I know absolutely damn all about insurance.
[17] All that I know about insurance I have gleamed from courses such as this.
[18] Erm, because before I joined the Commercial Union I came training straight from the training centre, I worked for er, Industrial Training Board, in fact, dealing with a number of Plastics Industries.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [19] I've heard all the jokes about that.
[20] And er, I used to believe that plastics was good, before I met [...] er, disillusioned me of this.
[21] Erm, and I worked for them for about twelve or thirteen years, I suppose, trolling around sout south of England.
[22] We had reorganisations there, you know, every time they had a reorganisation a patch got bigger, and the workload got heavier, er, and in the last ten months of my period there, I did sort of thirty five thousand miles and a job as well, so I thought, blimey [...] I'm into mortality tables, if somebody else's car had got my name written on it, so I decided to take a change.
[23] We all make mistakes.
[24] Erm, but ac actually I thoroughly enjoy working for Commercial Union, especially if you [...] erm, he's taking all the [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [25] Erm, I'd like to to welcome you to the Industrial Training Board, I spent about four and a half years [...] with training scheme, [...] and I actually originated in er, engineering, so er, I've got a long track record, perhaps of training and er, an even long track record working, [...] so I won't give you too hard a time. [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [26] Er, that's really me.
[27] Who's like to to explain wh who they are and whatever.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [28] Why not [...] , yes.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [29] Erm, I [...] from Edinburgh branch, I'm the Assistant Manager of Services there, [...] erm, that means I'm in charge of Personnel and Admin, erm, Personal Insurances and our Technical Services Unit.
[30] Er, been with C U for er, six and a half years as well.
[31] Erm, joined as Management Training.
[32] Went to the usual training courses and General Branch.
[33] Erm, went, decided I wanted to be on the sort of management side.
[34] Went through Section Head of various departments and became the A M S there or M P S as it was at the time.
[35] Er, about two and a half years ago, erm, before that, er, just at college, so this is my first real job selection.
David (PS446) [36] Right.
[37] Take a seat.
[38] One of the things I will be doing is going round is just checking out the learning goals.
[39] Now learning goals for those that that didn't actually, sort of, get round to sending the little pre-addressed form.
[40] This is a form that we asked you to complete and send down, and some people have done it, and some people hadn't. [...] so should get er, a bonus point for that.
[41] Erm, just want to check out that this is still roughly right.
[42] Erm, it's only general filling [...] er, and it was mainly to develop assertiveness skills and confidence in putting forward your own ideas.
[43] This [...] any more, additional [...] on it.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [44] No, no, that's fine.
David (PS446) [45] You're quite happy with that.
[46] Excellent.
[47] Excellent.
[48] Okay.
[49] Er, we'll come back, perhaps after we've been there.
[50] To tell us about the the little problem we reported on, reported on something we want to look at, we can home in on some activity.
[51] Excellent. [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [52] I've got it.
David (PS446) [53] I've got accused of [...] people.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [54] Okay, John, you go for it, because you're [...]
John (PS447) [55] Er, John work for Management Services, I'm a Systems Analyst and been with C U for just over three years now.
[56] Before that I worked fifteen years for a international bank.
[57] Er, prior to that I was trained as an electrician.
[58] So I've done a variety of jobs, and I'm not quite sure how I ended up doing what I'm doing [...] I got into computers by accident, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [59] I don't believe that, John.
John (PS447) [60] No, seriously, that's true.
[61] I found out they had a computer in the bottom of the building when I worked in the bank and it started off from that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
John (PS447) [62] I've done everything, [...] programme, erm, Systems Analyst, I've done it all.
David (PS446) [63] Good.
John (PS447) [64] Tried it all, so I thought I'd come here
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [65] Been there, done this, [...] [laugh]
John (PS447) [66] Yeah, a bit like the advert on television.
David (PS446) [67] [laugh] Great.
[68] Thanks, John.
[69] And and, and how does this sort of match up with er, of [...]
John (PS447) [70] No, I mean, that's that's
David (PS446) [71] That's reasonable.
John (PS447) [72] That's fine, yeah.
David (PS446) [73] They have state er, in your case, clearly, contributional, concise and without rambling.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [74] Tendency to waffle occasionally.
David (PS446) [75] Yeah, but I'm sure, I appreciate that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [76] No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no honestly.
[77] Er, er be able to handle questions in a comfortable way.
[78] And er, become more assertive with my dealings with others.
John (PS447) [79] Yeah.
David (PS446) [80] Yes.
John (PS447) [81] That's true.
David (PS446) [82] Whatever that means, and we'll discover those as we go along.
[83] Are you happy with those?
John (PS447) [84] Yes.
David (PS446) [85] Any additions, subtractions.
John (PS447) [86] No.
David (PS446) [87] No.
[88] [...] Good.
[89] Thank you, John.
[90] At the back, I see a, I see a movement from Phil.
Bill (PS448) [91] I'm Phil and I work in, erm,Mar Marketing Department, down in Croydon.
[92] Been in C U for three years.
[93] Joined as an M C. Erm, effectively I I mean I work in a Direct Marketing Department, all the junk mail for the un uneducated.
[94] Erm, handling a lot of the life erm, [...] that we do.
[95] Prior to C U I came straight from University, so, I assumed [...] Business Data Course.
David (PS446) [96] Right.
[97] Have we got one of these?
Bill (PS448) [98] Er, you should have, yeah, but it'll probably arrive Friday, because I'm a late replacement. [laugh]
David (PS446) [99] Oh, really, oh [...] shall we make allowances for him.
[100] Shall we, it depends who else hasn't done it. [laugh]
Bill (PS448) [laugh]
David (PS446) [101] Okay, look, I haven't actually had a copy.
[102] You've obviously got it there.
Bill (PS448) [103] Yep.
David (PS446) [104] And do you want to give us a clue about what it says.
Bill (PS448) [105] Yeah, I mean,ef effectively, much of my job is involved with erm, handling negotiations, whether it be internal departments or at agencies, or whatever.
David (PS446) [106] Right.
Bill (PS448) [107] And, obviously to get them to do the right job in the right, within the right timescales.
David (PS446) [108] Right.
Bill (PS448) [109] Erm, you need influencing and negotiation skills.
David (PS446) [110] [...] within timescales and ...
Bill (PS448) [111] Erm, like getting to the right thing
David (PS446) [112] Right.
Bill (PS448) [113] in the right time, effectively.
David (PS446) [114] [...] Okay.
[115] Good.
Bill (PS448) [116] And obviously they have their own priorities, so they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily geared up for that.
David (PS446) [117] [...] Phil, that's strange. [laugh]
Bill (PS448) [118] Yeah, I know. [laugh]
David (PS446) [119] Why don't they, wouldn't it be easier to [...]
Bill (PS448) [120] [...] the other one is effectively developing confidence in handling these these situations.
David (PS446) [121] [...] how do you come to [...] Anything else.
[122] Happy with those.
Bill (PS448) [123] Mhm.
David (PS446) [124] Great.
[125] Thank you Phil.
Rosie (PS449) [126] Can I have a go now?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [127] Well done, Rosemary.
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [128] Rosemary.
Rosie (PS449) [129] [...] set up.
David (PS446) [130] That's er [...] point.
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [...]
Rosie (PS449) [131] Right, I'm Rosemary I am a Technical Leader at Management Services in [...] which is a a fairly new role.
David (PS446) [132] A Technical Leader?
Rosie (PS449) [133] A Technical Leader.
[134] Yes.
[135] Erm, it's fairly [...] interesting.
David (PS446) [136] Indeed.
Rosie (PS449) [137] I'm, I've worked at C U on er, for for many years.
[138] I joined erm, a branch that no longer exists, from school.
[139] A [...] branch in London, and worked on personal assurances.
[140] From there I [...] test programme unit, joined er, [...] as a trainee programmer, having spent five weeks here first which was er, [...] [laugh] first and last.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
Rosie (PS449) [141] [laugh] course that was say on here.
[142] Erm, from there I've erm, worked for [...] four years, I've taken erm, a break to have children.
[143] I've erm, returned to work contracting and in fact, at Commercial Union for the last three years.
[144] [...] Lived all my life in the south of England.
[145] Never living north of London. [laugh]
David (PS446) [146] And north of Watford.
Rosie (PS449) [147] Never been to Watford.
[148] No.
David (PS446) [149] Those of course, in the south do recognize that when, there are some people in the midlands, sort of , sort of round Northampton area, who try to get in, they won't [clears throat] they reckon, they reckon that the Watford Gap.
[150] It is a bloody, those of us from the south, now is as Watford, Hertfordshire, sorry about that, [...] you know, we're well happy, you stand no chance of [laugh] [...] oh dear, I've got in the eye here, you know, we declared independence years ago. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [151] Good.
[152] Thanks, Rosemary.
Rosie (PS449) [153] [...] manager sent in my objectives, but I can't remember, now. [laugh]
David (PS446) [154] Well, he sent in erm,
Rosie (PS449) [155] She.
David (PS446) [156] He sent in a a a er,what what's called a nomination form.
[157] Now I've extracted from the nomination form, some things, but I don't know whether you've seen them.
Rosie (PS449) [158] She had discussed them with me.
David (PS446) [159] Do these look something like what they were?
[160] Right.
[161] Okay, if you read and [...] through, I take the kind of pros and cons of ideas, understanding there are those very active proposals, I've got more of a selling approach with pretending ideas, you know, the candid advervisement like, you tell us [...] negotiating [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [162] Lovely wording on that one.
[163] Er, and avoid conflict ... situations.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [164] Which course did she go on. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...] [laugh]
David (PS446) [165] [...] learning, [...] I I'm quite sure which course that came up on, yes.
[166] There's there's one, I think that's gonna need clarifying, and that's that this course isn't about presenting, er, it it maybe about adopting a selling approach but it's not about presentation skills.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [167] Mm. [...]
David (PS446) [168] Yes, fair enough.
[169] Erm, I think many of the young people especially go through, never seem to have an interlock er, together to create er, whatever it is they want to [...] .
[170] Which maybe [...] you are now, I don't know.
[171] Are you happy with that.
Rosie (PS449) [172] Yes.
David (PS446) [173] Any additions, subtractions.
[174] Good.
[175] Thank you for that, Rosemary.
[176] [sigh] We're running out of options here.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [177] Well done, Clare.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [178] [...] office systems in [...] erm, for three, four just over four years now.
[179] I haven't been in office systems for all that time.
[180] Er, prior to that, I did a degree at college from Hull.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [181] Said Hull?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [182] Mm.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [183] I could tell it [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [184] Erm, the other points I will probably [...]
David (PS446) [185] Oh, here we got the the lists that Connie gave me,
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [186] Yes.
David (PS446) [187] the lists that Connie gave me, [...] [flicking through papers]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [188] Erm, probably [...]
David (PS446) [189] Yes, they are a bit varied, aren't they, yeah.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [190] Yeah.
[191] I don't know whether you've received my [...] You know, the one my manager just sent me, but I haven't. [laugh]
David (PS446) [192] You didn't say anything, Mary.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [193] No.
David (PS446) [194] No.
[195] [...] I [...] I want your [...] then, Rosemary.
[196] [...] so, have you got some?
Rosie (PS449) [197] Erm, well, yes, vaguely.
David (PS446) [198] Vaguely.
Rosie (PS449) [199] Erm, a lot of my job is going to around branches, erm, and it is charged at, [...] that are on the new systems, and that's [...] negotiate with the new
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
Rosie (PS449) [200] management services and branches and what systems have been reduced and the branches that have actually kept the ones they're on to.
David (PS446) [201] Mhm.
Rosie (PS449) [202] And that stuff, usually, so I could just delete [...]
David (PS446) [203] On what.
[204] On what.
Rosie (PS449) [205] Well on, [...] I do it the right way, because I don't always feel that I am doing it the right way.
David (PS446) [206] Tips on negotiating [...] er, I put brackets between er office systems, maintenance services and the accusers.
Rosie (PS449) [207] Yep.
David (PS446) [208] You get [...] that.
Rosie (PS449) [209] No, it's just confidence, really.
[210] But er, [...]
David (PS446) [211] Okay.
[212] Happy with that?
[213] Ecstatic.
Rosie (PS449) [214] Yeah.
David (PS446) [215] Right.
[216] Thanks Clare.
[217] We've come down to the wine
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [218] [...] you can't escape any long, now.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [219] [...] I've just driven down from Manchester and I'm slightly knackered.
[220] [laugh] But er,
David (PS446) [221] We did notice the old [...] [laugh] just had a late night on the town.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [222] Er, we did sample of the regional wines, last night erm.
[223] Been with C U for about two years last September, er started management training, came straight from University, erm, tt [...] several section section head erm, starting with with various instructional outside [...] they call it process control.
[224] Erm, why that exact name, I wasn't sure.
[225] Erm, live in Manchester, my natural place is Stockport which is, a little just outside Stockport, where I've lived [...] Erm, it's taken me years to live [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [226] a bloody long time.
David (PS446) [227] Okay.
[228] So I mean, er, I'm I'm really stumped down on the course, because erm, you know, all all my usual but jokes seem to be here, I mean
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [229] I daren't say anything about [...] Chinese.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [230] Er, or management services.
[231] [...] assistants are in doubt [...] It looks like it's going to be group supply in here.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [232] If there's any reason why I can have [...] group supply, is that you can always pick on somebody to blame it all on, of course.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [233] That's true.
David (PS446) [234] But we didn't [...] pick on you, [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [235] No.
David (PS446) [236] No.
[237] I don't know whether it's circumstantial [...] , or maybe didn't actually send it.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [238] Oh I didn't send it, no, I presumed my er, my managers would have [...] it's a, it's a specifically to do with appraisals, erm, persuading [...] to think I'm entitled to five hundred pound a day, or some something like that.
[239] [laugh] [...] Don't tell me.
David (PS446) [240] [...] from my point of view.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [241] Yeah.
David (PS446) [242] [...] anything else?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [243] Erm, no, [...]
David (PS446) [244] Okay.
[245] You've come a long way from Manchester to deal with that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [246] [...] I'm sure we'll develop something [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [247] I'm sure we'll develop something to go [...] Okay.
[248] [...] group, erm, must take those up at some stage and and transfer them to the wall.
[249] One of the things I'd like to know, erm, fairly on in the course is is your asked to bring along some thought, something you were trying to influence somebody about.
[250] So it would be used then, as a a working model, if you like, er, through the course.
[251] Erm, could I ask you to just share with us briefly, er, not in great detail, but, just a few words about what it is that you want to influence somebody about.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [clears throat]
David (PS446) [252] Sort of share with you, give me some clue about how we can organise the rest of the course as well.
[253] Let's let, s go [...] .
Bill (PS448) [254] Yeah, sure.
David (PS446) [255] Yeah, let's go then.
Bill (PS448) [256] Erm, well, luckily my section manager is a forty-six year old woman who is erm, [clears throat] [...] section like that, at the bottom of the copy of the report.
David (PS446) [257] Right.
Bill (PS448) [258] Erm, I like it there to be filled in by the managers [...] older by about two years or so.
David (PS446) [259] Mhm.
Bill (PS448) [260] Erm, erm, I mean, she doesn't have a very strong character, but erm, on the scale of [...]
David (PS446) [...]
Bill (PS448) [261] Erm, I'm sure she'll make [...] he reckons about half an hour [...] erm, to make sure that [...]
David (PS446) [262] Right.
Bill (PS448) [...]
David (PS446) [263] Good.
[264] Just a couple of things I want to check out.
Bill (PS448) [265] Yeah.
David (PS446) [266] I think we're not going to talk about processing.
Bill (PS448) [267] Yes, erm, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David (PS446) [268] Appraisals, you appreciate that we're not going to talk about processing appraisals.
[269] Which is another course.
[270] [...] Book early in the new year.
[271] There are places available.
[272] [laugh] Er, collect the forms on the way out.
[273] Erm, the other aspect is that you have actually got line authority on this Phil.
Bill (PS448) [274] Yeah, that's right.
David (PS446) [275] Can I just check out that what you're actually talking about is influencing that.
Bill (PS448) [276] Yes.
David (PS446) [277] Rather than directing, be directive.
[278] You wanted to
Bill (PS448) [279] Well, it's it's this, during discussion, erm, I've got to bring her round to my point of view [...] rather than on her point of view, and discussing the erm, [...]
David (PS446) [280] Okay.
[281] Erm ... fine.
[282] Er, er I think this is a general point, because we'll talk in a moment about what is influencing,
Bill (PS448) [283] Yeah,
David (PS446) [284] and classically one of the problems is, that we get situations where, at the end of the line, you've got a line authority on somebody, you say, I hear it all, I hear it all.
[285] Now do it.
Bill (PS448) [286] Mm.
David (PS446) [287] Er, because I have line authority on you.
[288] I am your manager, I'm your boss.
[289] Do it.
[290] Erm, at which point influencing has somewhat become a bit of a waste of time.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [291] Yeah.
David (PS446) [292] It becomes just two fingers in the eye type of thing.
[293] Erm, but you're saying, you don't, you want to get it right without doing that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [294] That's right.
David (PS446) [295] Fine.
[296] Okay.
[297] We'll go with that one.
[298] [...] group you didn't, if you'd said no there, I just threw it down and said well, you'd better think of another one.
[299] [laugh] Okay, thanks Tony.
[300] Let's work round, Rosemary.
Rosie (PS449) [301] Right, erm, how can I explain, without being too technical.
David (PS446) [302] Oh, don't worry about it.
[303] Imagine [...] aren't normally, but erm, [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [304] We're, we're, I'll tell you what, we we're stuck here, every time you say something, we don't understand, Rosemary, we'll we'll get a check out.
Rosie (PS449) [305] Yeah, you know, [...] I start of all this sensibly.
David (PS446) [306] Sorry.
[307] I'll can I just check sensibly it might be something [...] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [308] Aw, ah ah [...] my dear.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh] [...]
David (PS446) [309] [laugh] [...] like the course assessor.
[310] [...] Sorry, Rosemary.
[311] Carry on.
Rosie (PS449) [312] In programming, if something's called J S P Jackson Struction Pro-level Method, and erm, I think I can introduce a slightly modified way of using it.
[313] Er, a more sensible way of using it, providing divisional [...] good ideas.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [314] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [315] And this has been accepted by an authority of people on site, erm, presentations with management authority [...] you know, they've all been told that they must follow union rules.
[316] Erm, are now in the process of following up to see if who has made er the switch to the new regime, and I have been approached by one project leader who has two programmers who refused to change, and has asked for help.
David (PS446) [317] Right.
Rosie (PS449) [318] You know, so before I approach them, they've gonna have to quit the union [...]
David (PS446) [319] And certainly there is a situation where you don't have line on it, line of approach on it.
Rosie (PS449) [320] No direct [...]
David (PS446) [321] You've just got to talk to them about J S P, which is a subject very close to my heart.
Rosie (PS449) [laugh]
David (PS446) [322] First time ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [323] The first time I saw this, when I was up in [...] I thought, look at that, can't even get John Player Special round the right way.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [324] [laugh] Yes, so it's it's something where you've got to try and influence somebody to to change to a new way of doing it.
Rosie (PS449) [325] That's right.
David (PS446) [326] Good example.
[327] Erm ... so it's two people on that section.
[328] Er, just so that we can see which way we're working, John, can I just check out, have you the faintest idea what the hell she's talking about?
John (PS447) [329] Yes.
David (PS446) [330] Oh, excellent.
[331] In case
John (PS447) [332] Well, I know, I know, [...] pleased.
David (PS446) [333] Kids are gonna be role playing there, and think, there's there's somebody else wants to jump in, you know, and then, because ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [334] No, I've got my own views on it, now.
David (PS446) [335] Aw, aw, that sounds good, good.
[336] [...] Rosemary. [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [337] [...] seriously [...] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [338] [laughing] It's it's funny [...] he's just checking under the [...] []
David (PS446) [339] It's funny you should be here, John.
[340] Er, [...] John.
John (PS447) [341] Probably won't come as a surprise to you, but er, I've been working on a training system.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
John (PS447) [342] For a department within C U and er we've done this design ... on it, and come up with a new system, that we want to try and sell to other departments within the company.
[343] Now there is one department in particular that already have a training system in place, albeit the old volume two, but having said that, it works quite well, really.
[344] But, they're going to be made on, in fact, it's going to be pushed rather heavily they change to this new system, and they're going to have to meet some of the costs of development of the new system.
[345] Erm, what they need to be able to do is just be able to gently lead it along the right tunnel [...]
David (PS446) [346] Right.
John (PS447) [347] To to accept it.
[348] It's not clear at the moment, whether we gonna get too much opposition, I mean, [...] they might just sort cave in straight at the beginning and then take it on board, but er, there's definite potential there.
[349] They've they've asked for a few changes to their older system, and this new one will give them all that they want, plus a load that they don't want.
[350] And I get the impression that they're probably just quite happy to live with what they currently have, so I think it's just.
[351] That's the only problem [...] get a [...] and try it [...] get influence, [...] got to tactful about it, you know. [...]
David (PS446) [352] Yes, of course.
[353] It goes without saying.
[354] I mean, one of the things that quite often comes across at various elements of this course, is that the word selling comes out.
[355] Erm, because it is a, many of the the aspects of the United Kingdom, you know, from every [...] try making something, been trying to sell them on to you.
[356] So, let's have a, an interesting [...] and er, tell us why [...] other department makes life clear.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [357] Erm, well, at the moment I'm involved in a a big project, new benefits claims, erm, and so if the new claims system could echo which [...] priorities in that [...] department, erm, and it looks like it will be long drawn out eventually at the end of next year, nationwide [...] and effectively it's a English processing system whereby terms coming in and they're scanned and you can see images on a screen, so there's gonna be no [...] calls, what my, what my role in this is, gonna be to get the branches to accept the system.
David (PS446) [358] And ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [359] So I'm gonna need to to influence them, to actually to accept the whole concept of change and, you know, all of them really.
[360] But er, [laugh] That's what I would quite like to [...] today, [...]
David (PS446) [361] You gonna come back tomorrow.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [362] I'm gonna come back tomorrow.
David (PS446) [363] Excellent, Clare [...] bit of fun there [...] [laugh] Fine.
[364] I I I take it a great er, challenge now, I've only ever lost three delegates, only three delegates ever walked out on course on me, so, don't, you know, don't ruin my [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [clears throat]
David (PS446) [365] About [...] six, two people already had the sense not to come.
[366] [...] on to that one.
[367] Does anybody understand vaguely what Clare's talking about [...] heard of this example.
Rosie (PS449) [368] Mm, I've heard it, yeah.
David (PS446) [369] You know much about it.
[370] Don't argue.
Rosie (PS449) [371] No, I never.
[372] What I know is [...] sense of [...] others profits. [laugh]
David (PS446) [373] Oh, [...]
Rosie (PS449) [374] So it's not only got to be done, that's the problem.
David (PS446) [375] Well get somebody in,
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [376] Somebody who imagine they don't like it, Clare, in fact, you know.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [377] You can always fix some objections. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [378] Okay.
[379] Thanks again.
[380] [...] market ... Phil.
Bill (PS448) [381] Right, well, ninety per cent of the work that I do is effectively what what we call third party mailing [...] whereby we will take erm, an insurance brokers client list, erm, and mail them the C U product.
[382] Erm, and they will earn commission on that.
[383] Now, for more important brokers, what tends to happen is, er the Direct Marketing Manager, my boss will go out and meet these brokers, and er, effectively cost him the earth, erm.
[384] All things being equal we could probably turn one of these things around, which is basically preparing all the literature, briefing the systems people and getting it all printed up and everything in about six weeks.
[385] But we've er, other projects and er, things going on, we are dealing with like, anything up to sixteen weeks ahead of it.
[386] And of course, as I say, it costs us the earth.
[387] So, we constantly being plagued by tight deadlines erm which means that, when incurring a additional costs, from overtime work, the printers and many things like that.
[388] So what I'd like to do is erm, balance out the influence in him, prior to going out and making these negotiations erm, so that he comes back with a a suitable timescale for us to deal with it, and hasn't promised them the earth in the way of commission or er, print changes or whatever.
David (PS446) [389] Mm.
[390] Is that selling er, [...] selling [...] in terms of time.
Bill (PS448) [391] Flexing their [...]
David (PS446) [392] And, and what do they get ... commission?
Bill (PS448) [393] Yeah.
David (PS446) [394] Yeah.
[395] Good.
[396] At least we did have [...] boss, sometime [...] it's not being good [...] you can say, they've been good, and they say ah, it's just what Phil wants.
Bill (PS448) [397] [laughing] yeah []
David (PS446) [398] Instead of saying [...] you know, [...] or something.
[399] Okay.
[400] Next [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [401] Erm, I had a bit difficulty coming up with a case, [...] actually, erm, this
David (PS446) [402] No problems.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [403] No, no, not that.
[404] It's just that this year I have had a lot of weak influencing situations, been on a lot of projects groups and so on, and last year I needed a lot of extra staff.
[405] So maybe we would have been great to have the skills before I did it, and that's why I am on the course this [...] [laugh] Erm, the only thing that I can think of that's erm, something that I do believe and I am committed to getting changed, is er, a system in our offices, in one of our departments, but I do have erm, authority over the people that I would be talking to, so, I know at the end of the day, I could just say, do it, but I'm trying to get them to believe in changing erm, and just sort of certain benefits of it.
[406] Basically the system is our [...] cover note book control, er, we issue [...] cover note books to agents and it's up to us to make sure that they're all issued in sequence, as their legal documents etc, and a minute a gap comes up we have to chase them etc, it's run by erm, people quite low units and they [...] scared of a job and tend to put it off as lose, and I want to visit and try and influence them so I can give them some help and to change it and bring it up to date, because it's er.
[407] We got it up to date recently, but it was a major job and it always slips back, so.
[408] That's really [...]
David (PS446) [409] The influence is really to get the system, and keep it running.
Rosie (PS449) [410] Yes.
David (PS446) [411] Suppose to have to [...]
Rosie (PS449) [412] Aha.
David (PS446) [413] Catch up [...]
Rosie (PS449) [414] [...] yeah.
David (PS446) [415] Which soak up more time [...]
Rosie (PS449) [416] Mhm.
David (PS446) [417] Okay.
[418] As you say, it's lying but
Rosie (PS449) [419] Mhm.
David (PS446) [420] What you're really saying, I think is, that you actually want to do it
Rosie (PS449) [421] Mhm.
David (PS446) [422] whether they want to do it,
Rosie (PS449) [423] Yes.
David (PS446) [424] rather than you, because your telling them.
Rosie (PS449) [425] That's right, 'cos they might not do it.
[426] Well, they will, they will do it, but they won't want to do it er, you know, like committing themselves if you tell them to.
David (PS446) [427] No.
[428] They do that, don't they?
[429] They say, yes boss, yes.
[430] They do things like, that's a terrific idea, boss.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough] [laugh]
David (PS446) [431] Er, I agree with you totally.
[432] And they're shaking their head, and they're saying no, it isn't.
[433] I think they're saying one thing, and they do something else.
[434] Er, commitment,
Rosie (PS449) [435] Mhm.
David (PS446) [436] I think perhaps er, is probably your answer.
[437] That means trying to get them commit committed in the nicest possible way.
Rosie (PS449) [438] Mhm.
David (PS446) [439] They no longer get co committed under the old way.
[440] Okay.
[441] Thanks for that group.
[442] Er, I think they sound like a good set of people you can work with, though.
[443] I tell you, I make that point, that we we have to, to try and not vet, but to check you out, if we've got somebody that's understandable, realistic, because we have had examples on this course, where erm, with the best will in the world, and the systems are the right hand of God, erm, the projects that people have brought along, the case studies that people have brought along, won't work.
[444] Er, the most extreme case, of which I think was a project accountant on U K finance.
[445] He came along with a project which was to get to get somebody to change in a company where we bought forty per cent of it.
[446] Forty per cent is insignificant, the sixty per cent was still owned by the man and his company, and somebody in the organisation, I know this sounds fairly tall, had said go and get this company to do this, because it works for us, Commercial Union.
[447] Well, of course the guy with the sixty per cent just kept saying, you know, up yours, in the nicest possible way, you know, it may work for you, but why should I do it when I get no benefit from it, and I own sixty per cent of this outfit.
[448] Go away.
[449] Now with the best will in the world, there is no way that that fellow could get this other party to change.
[450] Would you?
[451] But he was sort of being destructive, quite a boss to go and get them to do it, and they wouldn't.
[452] Well, you never go in an unrealistic influencing situation, and er, the other one would have said, well, we've had situations where it has been very much a line type decision.
[453] Or somebody saying, yeah, I took, I want them to do it because, [...] they're actually underlying, and er, if either of these cases, where there is lying, if you drop into line, er what we do in case studies, or working through it, I shall say stop, start again, [...] okay.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [454] Good.
[455] Okay, group.
[456] Good stuff, well done.
[457] Thank you very much.
[458] Now we're on the road, er, let's see what other goodies we've got over here going on, oh, yes, we're checking out how well people are being briefed before they came on the course.
[459] [laughing] I mean, come on, [] but I do understand that some of you were briefed or, or [...] Don't worry about this now, but we would like this briefing questionnaire back before you leave on Wednesday, er, if you were a late replacement, could you just make that plain on there, er, if you weren't briefed, you've got the shortest questionnaire in the world to fill in.
[460] You get to page two, and it said, were you, and you say no and that's it.
[461] Er, if on the other hand, you can yes, then you can see a little bit further down the line, but don't worry about those now.
[462] In a in a quiet moment, er, perhaps you could fill those in and then send them back, say, before we finish on the Wednesday.
[463] One of the things that's perhaps a little difficult to say with that tape recorder running in the middle of the room, is, that this course offers, operates a sense of code of confidentiality, and I'm not sure how this is going to work.
[464] [...] somebody else out there who's hearing every word we're saying.
[465] What er, we would normally say is that, what you say in here doesn't leave this room via Peter and myself, er, in order, sometimes, to talk about the other situations, I think perhaps we'll we'll have an agreement, with whoever's gonna pick this tape up afterwards.
[466] If at any stage, somebody wants to talk turkey, and mentions people's names, they'll indicate that and we'll switch the tape off whilst we talk about him.
[467] Yeah?
[468] Because I think it's important, that quite often in influence situations, we get down to the real nitty gritty.
[469] We actually start mentioning names.
[470] At this stage, John will say, like another department.
[471] Up to, you know, few hours where we've been together, he'll actually be prepared or at least to the rest of us, who the hell he's talking about.
[472] People will say, you know, this person, and they won't mention their names, after a few hours together, we start to get to grips with the nature of influencing, and the names start falling out.
[473] So there's a general agreement for every well there will for me, like, if at any stage you want to talk turkey.
[474] Talk people, just say, I want to talk and you can't tape, until you've [...] like conversation.
[475] Plus the favourite one, at a certain stage is [...] is just to leave it off.
[476] Okay.
[477] So, we've got some learning [...] books, well done.
[478] Remember where we're going.
[479] [flicking pages over] [...] at the moment.
[480] One of the things we need to think about, quite early on, I suppose, is er, is the nature of what we're actually talking about.
[481] What are we talking about?
[482] What's this course we're on?
John (PS447) [483] Influence Course.
David (PS446) [484] In thank you, John.
[485] [...] influencing.
[486] Now, one of the things that I find increasing ... increasingly so, is the fact that words become popular, don't they?
[487] Er, words are in words.
[488] We had words of the sixties, there were words of the seventies, there were words of the eighties, words of the nineties, and we're influencing by those words, actually that's reasonably in popularity and er increasing usage, and sometime we, people actually use it and they don't know what it means.
[489] Sometimes people don't actually understand what the hell they mean, when they say it anyway.
[490] So, the first little bit of exercise we're gonna do is, I'm gonna ask you to, just work in pairs for about five minutes.
[491] Just looking at how to use a word, and I'm better gonna have a look.
[492] Work in pairs, just round the table, don't be embarrassed with, John, Clare, Phil and Ed.
[493] Just spend five minutes putting your thoughts down on paper.
[494] What are the words, what are the expressions that come to mind when you say influencing.
[495] What are things, other meanings of it.
[496] A word that coins the same message.
[497] You know.
[498] Er, try, let's try and get it home and understanding of what the word means.
[499] Whilst we're doing this exercise, we'll switch the tape off.
[500] [tape switched off] So let's take some er, some music.
[501] What sort of things, what sort of words, come to mind when you hear the word influencing.
[502] Shoot me.
[503] [...] swine.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...] [laugh]
David (PS446) [504] Now this pen doesn't spell double R R. Okay, I've got to warn you, [...] said the spelling, keep getting office systems to try and get us some decent colouring pens, but they don't.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [505] Does that look right.
[506] It doesn't look right from up here.
[507] One of the other problems from standing close [...] that's right. [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [508] This [...] oh sorry that's a stroke [...] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [509] Ah [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [510] I think it's got two S S's
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [511] He who has the pen, has the power.
[512] [laugh] Okay, [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [513] Leading.
David (PS446) [514] Leading.
[515] The pen's doing all right in the programme.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [516] Negotiations.
David (PS446) [517] Negotiations.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [518] Has it got to be one word answers?
David (PS446) [519] Not necessarily, no.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [520] Frenzies have been [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [521] Affecting a change.
David (PS446) [522] Affecting a change.
[523] Got that one.
[524] Yes.
[525] Affecting a change.
[526] Good.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [527] A bit strong, isn't it. [...]
David (PS446) [528] No, as you say [...] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [529] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [530] Go for commercial C [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [531] [spelling] C A C A M P []
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [532] [...] was an S
David (PS446) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [533] Don't know what you mean.
David (PS446) [534] Coercion, Coercing.
[535] Yes.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [536] Selling.
David (PS446) [537] Selling, and they've been listening already.
[538] [laugh] Yes.
[539] Good.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [540] Convincing.
David (PS446) [541] Convincing.
[542] Good
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [543] Assertiveness.
David (PS446) [544] Assertiveness.
[545] You've been reading the programme as well.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [546] Good.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [547] Managing.
David (PS446) [548] Managing. [writing on board]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [549] Affective.
David (PS446) [550] Affective [...] [clears throat] Right.
[551] So you want to fill in the spaces, you thought, you, having nothing at the bottom of the page, but the big gaps [...]
David (PS446) [552] There's more?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [553] Proposing.
David (PS446) [554] Proposing.
[555] [writing on board] Right.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [556] Got a long one here.
[557] Bringing about a change of heart.
David (PS446) [558] Bringing about a change of heart.
[559] Oh [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [...] [writing on board]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [560] [...] when he's here.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [561] ... heart.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [562] I think ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [563] Communicating.
David (PS446) [564] Communicating.
John (PS447) [565] How about [...] a bit of a stupid answer.
David (PS446) [566] Being very revolutionary, in'ya, John.
[567] You sure this'll catch on.
John (PS447) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [568] You sure this'll catch on [...]
John (PS447) [569] Don't know.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [570] Yeah, it sounds like a good idea to me.
David (PS446) [571] Yes.
[572] Any more.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [573] Yeah, I got one, expressing a view, got to be the one [...]
David (PS446) [574] All right.
[575] Expressing a view.
[576] [writing on board] Yeah.
[577] Any more.
[578] [...] Okay.
[579] That's a pretty er comprehensive list.
[580] Actually longer than the list we've got.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [581] Erm, well done.
[582] It's about, when you look at influencing, some of these parts are component parts [...] some of 'em are, some of them are, ancillary associated skills, which help us influence.
[583] Er, some of them are different words, for influencing on, a bit a bit of a mis-match here of mish-mash, rather of those different aspects.
[584] Er, but essentially, let's look at what we're saying.
[585] nobody's saying.
[586] You're saying that there are certain things which are, maybe words which are alternatives or part of
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [587] Influencing.
[588] What might there be.
[589] What might be the alternative words to influencing [...] or, alternative phrases ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [590] Persuade.
David (PS446) [591] Persuade, I think is probably one, isn't it, which is a different, a different word, something that might be using in it's place.
[592] Others ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [593] Affecting.
David (PS446) [594] Affecting.
[595] [...] get the only one.
[596] That's it.
[597] Yes.
[598] Again.
[599] Any others?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [600] [...] Yes.
[601] Right. [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [602] Convincing.
David (PS446) [603] Oh yes, I was gonna say, I think convincing is is another word that goes along with the general ambience of what influencing is about.
[604] Sorry, the ghost hasn't come over from the other side of the door, it just keeps moving by itself.
[605] I think it's the wind.
[606] Er, any other words there that particularly that we would use, er you know, replacement for the word influencing.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [607] I think coercing probably [...]
David (PS446) [608] Yeah, in a fairly sort of that's a bit of a [...] coercing, isn't it, maybe in to er, dirty tricks department.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [609] Mm.
David (PS446) [610] But it's moving towards that end, where, do it or else.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [611] Yeah.
David (PS446) [612] Recognise that er, the implications of that [...] but you're right,co coercing could be er an adve a rather negative end of influence.
[613] Erm, you're getting into [...] sort of aspect.
[614] Er, some of the others though, one minute, I don't want to pick out all of them, but, some of the others recognise they are actually parts of influencing,wh what what might be parts of the influencing.
[615] What associated skills do we [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [616] Reading [...] listening.
David (PS446) [617] Yeah, er reading and listening are certainly a part, sorry, no skills which you haven't got, you gonna have a problem, in terms of influencing.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [618] To be [...]
David (PS446) [619] To be [...] brilliant.
[620] How can you influence people if you can't communicate with them one way or another.
[621] The answer is, with great difficulty.
[622] Er, the other s
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [623] Sorry yeah, certainly, part of it thinking about the way on which we put together a package of ideas, and how we're going to get that across and sell that to the other party.
[624] Excellent.
[625] Any others?
[626] [...] I think our party, I think managing is very much about organising, nothing in the directive form of management [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [627] But managing a situation.
[628] If you don't manage influence, what actually happens?
[629] If you don't manage anything, what happens.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [630] [...] control.
David (PS446) [631] Exact control.
[632] You've got two options basically, in your influencing to be either, your in control or your not in control.
[633] And if you're not in control, you've usually got chaos ... coming very shortly.
[634] Erm, for considering, is an aspect of other parts of the [...] for you to go.
[635] I mean, the sort of things we got down are persuasion, motivated to do something, people see things as you see them, changing the way things are done, getting a view point across, solutions accepted, getting other party to accept change, you've got the words up there.
[636] Erm, getting the other party to cons consider your views.
[637] The dove-tailing of ideas into to mutual benefit which maybe also aspects of sound.
[638] It's about something, perhaps, that isn't implicit out there.
[639] It may be implied, but I don't think it's it's actually explicit up there, and I think it pond I would like to to recognise what we're going to work towards, and that is influences about choice.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [640] Without recognising that there is something needs to happen,to about recognising choice.
[641] How you're going to approach it, as well as the choice of the outcome as well.
[642] Er, and it's also about ... you're going to erm, take two inputs when we need to recognise you need choice and you also need flexibility as well.
[643] So one word we came down here to talk about, and hey, here's a whole lot things.
[644] It's a whole mess of things, it's a combination of those sort of things put together, that actually makes influence.
[645] Think of people that have influenced you in the past, and got you to do things, which, if you look back, and you think, that was very clever.
[646] I I wasn't even going to do that, I didn't want to do that.
[647] But they did, they got me to change, because I suppose all the words up there, and I'm gonna find three most significant ones that [...] and change, er, because while you influence somebody to turn from what they were doing, probably not too often, but it's usually about something, when you think about the examples that you brought along, and you knew all about change.
[648] Wanting to something to do totally differently.
[649] And influencing to do it without [...] alternatives we're gonna have when we're managers.
[650] So, there's a whole concept of things we we need to er, to remember, what influencing is about.
[651] We're gonna come back to some of the [...] as we work through.
[652] But what I'd like to do before we progress much farther, is just to, just to think, maybe about some of the things that I've said there, some of the things that we've already spoken about.
[653] Some of the things that you probably went through when you padlocked together.
[654] But there's two questions, two questions to answer, erm, why do we need influence?
[655] That your views were on those two questions, and let's take erm, let's stick to views of why do we need influencing, first of all.
[656] Talk us through groups.
[657] Not all at once.
[658] Just one at a time.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [659] Would be helpful, you know,
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [660] Ladies first.
David (PS446) [661] [laugh] No.
Rosie (PS449) [662] The first one is the erm, er, [...] or so, when [...] directs authority over somebody, will, we don't, we can't tell them to do it, we have to influence or persuade them to do something.
[663] Erm, obviously one needs to change peoples ideas or change the [...] way we do things or whatever, erm two [...] relevant position that's sort of making them believe in what they're trying to erm, propose, and getting commitment [...] at the end.
[664] So that they mean what they're saying.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [665] Some good reasons why we need some of these skills, before we [...]
David (PS446) [666] Good, er, gentlemen.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [667] [...] erm, bringing about change of this, erm
David (PS446) [668] Yes.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [669] First of all [...] change erm,
David (PS446) [670] [laugh] You're thinking about it [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [671] [...] small change.
[672] Erm, it's first of all, I thinking about changing their, like say for example, you know, the guy [...] speak to me about change, erm a systematic erm [...] to see the benefits [...] bringing about change without [...] his image.
[673] [...] obviously the reasons for [...]
David (PS446) [674] Good.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [675] [...] seemingly changing.
[676] Every if the reason that something's gotta change is obvious to everybody, then you don't really need to have any influence over their [...] It usually has to be some considered opinion that you want [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [677] Yes, I mean, if it's blatant and obvious, and there's only one option er, that's the bit [...] about choice, if there's only way of doing it, and one option, then you don't have to influence people.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [clears throat]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [678] Your driving down the road, and you carry on driving if there's no cross-roads.
[679] You gotta carry on driving down the road.
[680] Unless you want to be in the fields.
[681] [...] you've got a problem.
David (PS446) [682] Good.
[683] Yes.
[684] Oh, there's some good reasons why we need this skill.
[685] Okay, so what is it all about.
[686] All of the people, including the ones that [...] can carry on.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [687] Yes, let's do that.
[688] Let's let's ask the gentlemen to er, in fact I might do that.
[689] [...] by the way, a fatal mistake, [...] sexist [...]
Rosie (PS449) [690] Are they?
David (PS446) [691] Aye?
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [692] Tell us, ladies, what was er, what was some of the things you need to consider, then.
Rosie (PS449) [693] That was gentlemen.
David (PS446) [694] Sorry, gentlemen, you're right.
[695] Yes, one of the important things you need to have influence, is remember peoples names and what sex they are.
[696] Quite right, Rosemary.
[697] You can get yourself [...]
Rosie (PS449) [laugh]
David (PS446) [698] Right, what's this lot been given.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [699] Well, we need to know what the alternative point of view to our own is.
[700] Erm, we need to know what the position is now, and where we want to be, so, a lot of the influence is going, what change the influence is going to bring about.
David (PS446) [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [701] [...] reaction.
[702] Erm, our own is, obviously our own reasons for wanting this change but we ought to know the needs of others to see whether they correspond.
David (PS446) [703] Right.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [704] Erm, we need to be convincing in challenge, otherwise the [...] challenge, [...] erm, we should question whether there is a need for any change, erm, if things have been done in a certain way for a certain period of time, erm, just because we want to change them, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't [...]
David (PS446) [705] Right.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [706] Erm, the method that we're likely to use, or might be successful in bringing about this change, and once we've done it how it's likely to be effective.
David (PS446) [707] Well said, well said.
[708] But surely in that [...] when I said let's see whether it [...] considerations I said.
Rosie (PS449) [709] I think you would agree with him, when he said er, that [...] [laugh]
David (PS446) [710] [laugh] Fifteen all. [laugh]
Rosie (PS449) [711] Erm, first time, I think of some other things that would erm, would be considered in the light of influencing [...] erm, got the power structure, it was important, [...] approach and and you talk to your manager [...]
David (PS446) [712] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [713] Feelings, personality again, [...] approach.
[714] [...] peoples, can affect where you, which erm, which you needed for some [...]
David (PS446) [715] Mm.
Rosie (PS449) [716] You need a plan of structurally approach.
[717] About deciding on [...] important [...] something important, like going to lunch, you know, going on holiday.
David (PS446) [718] That's right.
Rosie (PS449) [719] And and backing, that's always important, you know, if you've got some support, [...]
David (PS446) [720] Good.
[721] Two very good sets there.
[722] [...] recognise what we've, what we've done so far, erm, [...] but, we're actually track on what you need, I mean, what [...] why we need it.
[723] That's what we mean, that's why we're [...] What do you say, [...] to consider for the [...] to pick up many details.
[724] And well done.
[725] Both groups, for recognising this.
[726] Influence is about change.
[727] About getting things to move along, but when you start breaking down what the other aspects are [...] about a lot of things, erm it was good influencing, recognise this and somebody will just suddenly say oh,no nothing nothing to do with influencing,
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [728] And just walk off, because, you wouldn't have done, what you've just said there.
[729] In terms of consideration.
[730] Er, and they may be little things, but [...] if you get them wrong, if you firmly recognise the power structure with people working with you, go on, who's your [...]
Rosie (PS449) [731] Yes.
David (PS446) [732] People of your level don't talk to people of my level, and that's changing the organisation, but it certainly used to [...] used to be getting [...] organisations.
[733] Erm, not recognising that there are other people involved.
[734] It's not you and your change, it's them and their changing view you are considering, as well as you.
[735] You've got to live in their world if you gonna affect that change, if you don't live in their world and only live your own, if you don't recognise, er, the problems that they're making in terms of change happens, and those are the [...] that you are going to give into the [...] So yes, you can think about yourself and and others, and you can think about the reasons, and you think about the priorities, about planning, about structure level.
[736] About who's it gonna be affecting.
[737] About what backing, [...] we think this is a jargon expression, [...] sponsor, isn't it.
[738] Who's really driving this.
[739] And if you've got big enough names, you can actually move people, quite fast.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [740] You know, if you say David in most places, it didn't have a hell of a lot of effect after all, he just came [...] If you sort of mention, like, a name like Walls or Rennells, you got people with feet several, you know, feet off the ground.
[741] [...] er, and moving in the right direction, a whole nest of things, when you think about, if you're going to try and influence something that are influenced, but influence is actually very varied in terms of science.
[742] If the problem you're confronted with is a ten thousand pound bit of influence, then it's worth spending a few hundred pounds in a preparation.
[743] If it's a ten p bit of influence, it's only worth spending a couple of pence ... on it.
[744] Get them round the wrong way, of course, and you spend ten thousand pounds worth of preparation on a ten p problem.
[745] And a ten p [...] and people say it's money.
[746] [...] it is, and I have to agree with them, and so would you.
[747] That, you need to recognise and think about, how big is the challenge [...] how big is their influence.
[748] Because of the situations, some of the ones you've been [...] on here, have got quite a consider considerable implications.
[749] Erm, in terms of putting the non-running [...] in your department.
[750] And if you get them right, then it could be not just this time, but other times, could come along and wreck them, sometimes it's a bit like a domino queue, isn't it, you get this one fall down, knocks others down as well.
[751] So.
[752] Good step.
[753] So now we know what it is.
[754] We know why we need it.
[755] We know some of the things, er most of the things, in fact, that we need to do to think in terms of consideration.
[756] We'll come back and pick up some of them aspects as we go along.
[757] Any questions or clarification that either team want from the other team about their views?
[758] No.
[759] The question was asked me, erm, is there a hand-out on this.
[760] The answer is, if they had a particular [...] general part of the study, but I shall stick them on the wall, er, with Blue Tac, but I shall stick the Blue Tac on the [...] so I shall just make that point, so that if some particular person whose just taken it on, don't ask about the use of Blue Tac in his room.
[761] It's only a joke, I'll tell you about that in a minute, erm.
[762] Okay, good comment.
[763] Good set group.
[764] Shall we have a a cu cup of tea, I think you've earned a cup of tea, now.
[765] For all our, walking and talking and hard work.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh] [tape switched off] [tape restarted]
David (PS446) [766] This erm, relates to a model, erm, called a model for developing positive [...] Very English sounding expression.
[767] I mean, it actually has some four sections to it.
[768] And I'm gonna talk through it in terms of a positive sense, er, and the [...] different way.
[769] What this model is really saying is that, what we actually do, er, create impressions erm, used.
[770] You can start anywhere on this model.
[771] It has four areas, I happen to have chosen to start it on the point, you could start it [...] look at, you can see [...] area, but, this, just look at erm, it's this way round.
[772] The, one of the things that we carried forward to do with influencing, erm memories and attitudes, if you're thinking about in the positive model, positive way, it'd say going into an [...] situation, I've been here before, and I was successful.
[773] Erm ... I know what I'm doing.
[774] I have self esteem.
[775] I can carry this off.
[776] I am very positive in my views, and where I come from.
[777] Yes.
[778] Erm, I feel good, a feel good factor, er, I can [...] I can change this situation, I can do it.
[779] There's a very positive attitude, yes.
[780] Which in itself, creates a er mood, when you look at things like plans and intentions.
[781] That says that er I know what I'm doing, because I'm positive, erm, I know where I'm going to, and as a consequence I can plan for that.
[782] I know what I want, I can plan for it.
[783] I'll get it.
[784] I can rehearse, I can be totally prepared.
[785] Er, because of them, I have a sense of purpose and I know where I'm going.
[786] So the memory has created a situation where you're looking for a planned intention was [...] developing and I and suc suc suc and I was successful.
[787] I can actually plan and get my directions in a very positive sense.
[788] Does that make sense?
[789] Sorry, sense, [...] do you know what I mean.
[790] So when you actually come to erm, try and influence somebody,you you're actual behaviour in there is based on sound er preparation, sound positive thoughts.
[791] So that when you're actually into a situation, your external behaviour is generating situations of positive vibes.
[792] Body language, there you go.
[793] Er, you would be persuasive, the language that you use will be in a positive sense, a positive vein.
[794] You will actually
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [795] [...] you'll hear, you'll listen because you want to find out what the other party's views are relative to where you're trying to take them.
[796] Yes.
[797] Er, you express yourself ... appropriately, because you will be confident and know what you're doing.
[798] Yes.
[799] And in itself, that creates in the other party, whoever it is you're trying to er to influence, their responses er, and reactions which will be positive to yours.
[800] And you will have a sense of being trusted, because of what you're doing.
[801] Er, you will be listened to, er, and that will create, and you will have influence, and that cycle will take you back into the positive memories for the next time you try and change something.
[802] Recognise.
[803] It goes round and round and round, on a big wheel.
[804] Many of these models and this is one, where you can actually go in on the, on the opposite side.
[805] It says, positive outcomes.
[806] This you have to recognise.
[807] What sort of things happen though, if you're into the negative side.
[808] Not just talking through a positive side.
[809] What happens er, here, if you're a negative?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [810] [clears throat] Your nervous and apprehensive about doing some [...]
David (PS446) [811] Right.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [812] Into that situation.
David (PS446) [813] Yes.
[814] You've really run [...] here.
[815] [clears throat] I've done this before, and it didn't work ... and I'm gonna have to do it again, and Q E D, it isn't gonna work.
[816] Because the memories and attitudes of the past are with us.
[817] Now, so you've got bad vibes coming in.
[818] What does that create in terms of what you're doing here in the plans and intentions bit, what does that getting over ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [819] [...] [clears throat] bad [...] , badly [...]
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [820] You're not going to be very positive, certainly, are you.
[821] Er, no plans, er confusion, I mean, that will never do.
[822] Because if you're feeling unsure about it, that's exactly your feelings.
[823] I have been here.
[824] I don't like this.
[825] Perhaps I don't [...] and it's falling down that trap.
[826] Er, well I'll just do and see what happens.
[827] [clears throat] So, when you actually come and try and do it, what happens?
[828] If you're not playing and feeling bad, what actually happens.
[829] [...] me an answer.
Rosie (PS449) [...]
David (PS446) [830] You come across as negative.
[831] In what sort of ways?
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [832] In lack of prediction.
David (PS446) [833] Lack of prediction, which will be shown, how?
Rosie (PS449) [834] [...] in your body language, [...] be structured.
David (PS446) [835] Right.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [836] The body language, you won't be structured.
[837] The words that you use.
[838] How many times have you heard somebody trying to convince and influence you on something, and they're using negative words.
[839] I'm printing this up, but I don't think you're going to like it.
[840] Some of you will immediately say, no I don't like it.
[841] They don't even like it, so what don't you like.
[842] They're not convinced, how on earth am I supposed to believe it.
[843] Erm, negative sense of how they expect yo , peculiarity there, that you could all, you can also flick a coin, though.
[844] Er, a very negative form of er, of behaviour, can be, you can actually get highly directive, and start telling people, erm, we've already identified that influences, not having that ability to tell, it's something that people try and do it, it's a, it's a facade, that people put up [...] and get behind them.
[845] Erm, and say well, I don't think I'm convincing, so I'll try telling them, maybe they won't recognise that I don't have the authority to tell them, and they'll still do it.
[846] Anybody fallen for that one?
[847] No.
[848] Yeah, I have, and they say, ha ha.
[849] [...] and they go and do it.
[850] [clears throat] So, the external behaviour can either be er, well I don't know to ask you to do this, but ... their not gonna like this, but, or you can try and tell
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [851] Well, [...] story of telling ... you had to do it,
David (PS446) [852] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [853] Erm, if you [...] a certain reaction as well.
[854] Things that create, well why should I do it.
David (PS446) [855] Right.
[856] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [857] I suspect also that it influences your attitude [...] towards that person.
David (PS446) [858] Right.
[859] Because the cycle goes on, don't it.
[860] The next time you try and [...] I've been here before, and I didn't get it last time.
[861] Didn't get [...] last time, and I'm not going to get it this time, either.
[862] Ah, that's a bit of bad news, isn't it.
[863] So the wheel goes on.
[864] Says model for developing positive outcomes, because if it is in a positive cycle, actually the more it goes round, the more positive it gets.
[865] On the other hand, it's also like walking over the end of a plug-hole.
[866] If it's a negative cycle, it also reinforces that negative bit, I've been here before, I didn't feel comfortable, I can't do it, it won't be successful, and all because you're not.
[867] Because it's like the water getting faster and faster around the, around the plug-hole and it all becomes [...] gentlemen, let's check out you.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [...]
David (PS446) [868] [...] So if it suddenly goes the other way round
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [869] [laugh] yeah.
[870] Who cares. [laugh]
David (PS446) [871] [...] information, er, they did it on erm, one of the programmes they actually put a bucket of water actually on the equator, I don't know if you saw it.
Rosie (PS449) [872] Yes.
David (PS446) [873] But it didn't go anywhere, just went straight down the plug- hole.
[874] Quite incredible.
[875] [...] straddling the line.
[876] And as you say, [...]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [877] I don't care, it's just a useless bit of information, I thought you might like to know about.
[878] It's about watching for this cycle [...] we do this sort of thing in many aspects of our life.
[879] [clears throat] We build at getting better things, where if we don't actually watch it, we build at getting worse at things.
[880] Because we've been there and we we set, it's a cycle form of prophecy.
Rosie (PS449) [881] Mm.
David (PS446) [882] I don't like this, I'm I'm no good at it.
[883] I can't do it, and when we try and do it, we're no good at it, and we can't do it.
[884] So one of the aspects we're looking for sometimes is recognising when we're in a negative cycle, how you can turn that round to a positive cycle.
[885] If we're in a positive cycle, how can we make it more positive.
[886] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [887] How about when you work to, when you're in a positive cycle to be aware of the negatives.
David (PS446) [888] Mm.
[889] Why do you think that [...]
Rosie (PS449) [890] Because, I mean, you could [...] say something wonderful etc etc [...]
David (PS446) [891] You could be coming round here to various attitudes and behaviours intentions, behaviours, albeit highly positive, but if you don't recognise what other people are doing, your responses, they, you may feel positive, but if they are saying ... er, I just don't accept this sort of thing from you.
[892] It's the sort of thing unfortunately some people say, innit.
[893] You can't have those my dear, those things don't work.
[894] That is an unusual sort of thing to say.
[895] You tend to recognise particularly in that area of other people's responses, and you keep going on, you're bulldozing, aren't you.
Rosie (PS449) [896] Mm.
David (PS446) [897] You keep pushing something along, pushing something along, pushing ... Well this is, this is er, [...] who isn't here today.
Rosie (PS449) [laugh]
David (PS446) [898] [...] Peter round here, sort of, he's losing it by now , [...] er, Peter got his best shirt and tie on.
Rosie (PS449) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [899] Dressed for the occasion, see. [laugh]
David (PS446) [900] Er, so the cycle is is very important, yes, to recognise where you're in the positive cycle, but be aware of other peoples responses.
[901] Equal, I might add, peculiarly sometimes when you're feeling very negative,
Rosie (PS449) [902] Mm.
David (PS446) [903] Around here, a number of people are saying, [whispering] dear God, what's he talking about. []
[904] And you feel working at, pick this up, you can miss those points.
[905] You see, this person's actually very positive, you won't find a fault.
[906] They keep on going on in the negative sense and the bulldozing here, has got you digging a big hole, and you eventually fall into it.
[907] And [...] expression [...] twenty five per cent of the hole stop digging.
[908] Erm, you know, you can find this, to actually need to work on where you're at in the cycle and why you're there, and what it means, to what you're trying to do.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [909] Do they not also need turning points, though.
David (PS446) [910] [...] on that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [911] If you do, [...] on, if you're in a negative cycle, and you do start getting positive reactions, if you're lucky and recognise that, can they not turn the whole thing around?
David (PS446) [912] Absolutely.
[913] Yeah.
[914] The trick is to lo to watch for them, to be aware of them, erm, [clears throat] because we've we've practically, better to go around the cycle, wherever you start, you can say, I chose to start here, but you can start anywhere, the minute you go in and give positive bits, which will create positive reactions, which will give you positive memory.
[915] You don't have to start at a [...] attitude, but yeah, if you're watching for them, and you start to see signals, you need to be aware of these, because that's really the situation, isn't it, that's why I think you to be aware of influence.
[916] You said we needed to listen, we also got to watch, hear the words, what the words mean.
[917] What they actually [...] [clears throat] you can get a lot of stuff out of that.
[918] Erm, what do you think he wrote on the other side of that bit of paper in front of you.
[919] What he actually wrote is, is your views on those four stages, relative to this particular situation.
[920] This particular case study.
[921] [...] Do you recognise any.
Rosie (PS449) [922] No.
David (PS446) [923] Know, I don't know why I got you wrote, whether it's positive or negative.
[924] In fact, you may begin to get an inkling now, er, in terms of some of the words that you wrote down there.
[925] I'm seeing a few bright smiles here, which is, er, interesting.
[926] Yeah.
[927] [clears throat] What I'd like to do ...
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [cough]
David (PS446) [928] Is to, split up into pairs, and talk to each other about what you've written down.
[929] If it's negative, how are you going to turn it round to a positive.
[930] What can you get, where can you break that cycle.
[931] If it's a positive, how can you make it more positive, remembering our aim really is, good better better better better.
[932] Continuously improving.
[933] Erm, what I'd thought about, because at this stage we'd like to erm, perhaps start to get the feel of these little examples of [...] application, [...] How do these pairings sound for you.
[934] Er, I daren't give away Rosemary and John, 'cos they're the only two that can understand what the hell I'm talking about.
[935] [...] before.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [936] The other four will agree with this one, very rapidly, but how do you two feel about that.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [937] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [938] It's a bit
David (PS446) [939] Yes, feel comfortable with that?
[940] Erm, I thought Damien and Phil might be able to work together.
[941] Yes.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [942] No, no way.
David (PS446) [943] No way.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [944] Down the pub.
David (PS446) [945] [...] rock-facing. [writing on board]
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [laugh]
David (PS446) [946] Er, er, Annette and Clare.
[947] I mean, I did try and and make a male and female split all the way round, on the basis that all team male and all female team done it earlier.
[948] But er, I have a feeling that you two might be able to work better [...] .
[949] Is that Okay.
Unknown speaker (JJ7PSUNK) [950] Yes.
Rosie (PS449) [951] Yes.
David (PS446) [952] Work in those pairs.
[953] Look at what you've written down.
[954] Think.
[955] Is that a positive sample I've got.
[956] How can I increase this positiveness ... if it's a negative sample.
[957] What can I do to turn it round to a positive.
[958] What action point do I need to change, if I change it.
[959] Yes.
[960] I got twenty past, er, I reckon this should take about ten minutes to a quarter of an hour, okay.
[961] Talk through each one, and try and get that sample [...] good luck.
[962] Yes.
[963] You can tell us where we are, paid off in the year [...] conservatory.
Rosie (PS449) [laugh]
David (PS446) [964] No.
[965] [...] pay for the conservatory, today.