Bradford Metropolitan Council: debate. Sample containing about 7845 words speech recorded in public context

1 recordings

  1. Tape 112410 recorded on 1994-01-20. LocationWest Yorkshire: Bradford ( Council chamber ) Activity: debate

Undivided text

(JJEPSUNK) [1] of our officers who work in children's homes, we didn't sack anybody who was at the front line of s services and we certainly didn't expect other people to pay for our circus tickets.
(JJEPSUNK) [2] [whispering] didn't sack anybody []
(JJEPSUNK) [3] We actually believe that the people of would prefer prefer their money spending on the environment and front end services.
[4] And we actually believe that it's the individual's power to choose.
[5] What is now worrying us extremely about Local Government in Britain, in any Labour Authority, which is spreading now like a cancer in , that officers are not trusted now to even take the sick list of decisions so there has to be another sub-committee.
[6] I mean, I'm not that rude as to say that's for the payment of allowances, but some people may say that.
[7] Officers are paid to implement [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [8] you can speak in a second.
[9] Officers are paid to implement our policies.
[10] They're certainly not paid to write Councillor press releases
(JJEPSUNK) [11] here here
(JJEPSUNK) [12] at least even I never stooped to sending a circular round Community and Environment saying we do not want the danger of officers actually talking to the public and if there's any credit, Councillor got to have it.
[13] The power to choose, the power to choose, well if the power to choose in politics is about the Labour Party choosing their own candidate for the by-election and then the National Party replacing that candidate, well that's a Party I don't want to be a party to and that's nothing that we would ever stoop to
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [14] We've got to make a quite simple decision.
[15] We believe as a Party that the power of this county be individual, that he or she should have the power to choose.
[16] Not like the Labour Party, that we the Labour Party have the power to choose that you don't have the right to own.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [17] Councillor [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [18] your [...] says three consecutive Governments, Conservative Governments in Britain have striven to give power to the people, the right to choose and the right to own.
[19] Let's just have a look at what you've actually achieved.
[20] Let's look at your performance.
[21] And what a performance.
[22] It's worthy of an oscar.
[23] This Government has managed to combine the worst qualities of scrooge, Shylock and Genghis khan.
(JJEPSUNK) [laugh]
(JJEPSUNK) [24] The Tory manifesto of 1983 declared, we have a goal.
[25] It finished up it turned out to be an own goal.
[26] Their statement in their manifesto says, we promise that we will make Britain the best housed nation in Europe.
[27] That was 1983. 1988 a Government report declared there was a million houses in Britain unfit for human habitation.
[28] We spend less than most of the other European countries on housing.
[29] Public sector housing investment has been cut by seventy percent.
[30] Some choice.
[31] This Government has decimated the housing stock of this country and the Tories in this Chamber dare to talk about the right to choose and the power to buy.
[32] And Councillor talked about the resol the question County Council about the Right to Buy and why have a number of houses been sold gone down.
[33] Two simple answers, one they're not there and B, people can't afford them.
[34] I remind that we put in a housing investment bid for a hundred and twelve million pounds and were given the right to buy [...] thirteen million.
[35] Let's talk about the choice of the people that're homeless.
[36] Why are there so many people homeless?
[37] I'll tell you why.
[38] It's because of the inhumane way that this Government treats people who experience financial problems of any kind and those other problems associated with those matters.
[39] This Government has no time at all for the poor and even less time for people who become poor as a result of their savage policies, the policies which cause high interest rates, rising unemployment and all because of it's obsession with inflation.
[40] Let's look at house building, and you want to sell houses.
[41] Well, if you want to sell houses, why have all the major building companies in this country announced the largest cuts in profits this decade?
[42] Quite simply, because people cannot afford to buy them.
[43] Public sector housing, housing associations, building has been cut by two thirds.
[44] Did you give the building companies the choice?
[45] Is that what you mean about choice?
[46] Give a choice of losing, like did, two hundred million pound.
[47] That's some choice under a Tory Government.
[48] The Tories lied that we obstruct Council house sales.
[49] What's the point of advertising a porsche if you don't have one?
[50] Where are all the houses to sell?
[51] Simply they're not there.
[52] We, as a Council, have sold fourteen and a half thousand, with no facilities to build.
[53] The Labour Government will put that right.
[54] But where's choice there?
[55] Where is the individuals' right to own?
[56] Let's talk about the plight of families.
[57] What's gonna be the case?
[58] Because if we continue with the housing stock that we've got, then families living in high rise flats are never ever gonna have the opportunity to own their own house with a garden so the children can play.
[59] What choice is that?
[60] What choice have you given to the hundred thousand people, hundred thousand people, whose mortgages have been repossessed, who have been made homeless by the policies of your Government?
[61] That's some choice.
[62] What choice have you given to the seventy five families that tonight are in bed and breakfast in this city with children?
[63] What choice have they got?
[64] What choice are you giving the nine and a half thousand people on our Council waiting list?
[65] And what chance have they got of getting a house?
[66] If I lived in ,,,, ten years waiting list, ten years waiting list to have the opportunity, if there is an opportunity to come, to own or get a three bedroomed house.
[67] That's some choice.
[68] It's costing half a million pounds this year to pay for bed and breakfast.
[69] How illogical it is.
[70] Half a million pounds, if we were to be given the resources, would enable us, debt charge wise, to build two hundred and fifty family houses.
[71] What an illogical society it is, and what choice have we got?
[72] I'll tell the people of who has a real choice.
[73] It's the privileged few.
[74] The poor or less well off who cannot afford private health and pay school fees.
[75] That's what choice means to people.
[76] Tories are not the Party of choice and ownership but the Party of restrictions and repossessions.
[77] Choice for the rich means hobsons choice for the rest.
[78] You mentioned environment, Councillor and you've a Government white paper, a common inheritance.
[79] And I agree, the Government claims it's done a great deal for the environment.
[80] Indeed it has, it's polluted the rivers, dumped toxic waste on our land, poisoned the air and poisoned the water.
[81] You also mention within your document the N H S. Well, let's just have a little word about the N H S. Let's talk about the dedic dedicated staff working in the N H S who have nothing to gain and everything to lose.
[82] Let's ask the twelve nurses at hospital how they feel about their own jobs.
[83] What choice did you give them?
[84] What choice do you give the patients that can't use that ward that you've closed down?
[85] What choice have you given the patients who can't use the six other wards that you've closed down?
[86] What choice have you given the million people who're on the waiting list for National Health Service?
[87] That's some choice.
[88] The seven million pound cuts in the N H S service since the Trust.
[89] Three hundred jobs're gonna go.
[90] That's some choice.
[91] Keep your choices, we don't want them.
[92] This Government does not give a damn about the despair and breakdown of family life.
[93] Their policies are causing this an sorry, their policies are causing, and this from the Party which are supposed to believe in the sanctity of family life.
[94] We are certainly heading back to Victorian times on a tide of human misery.
[95] The economy.
[96] What choice are you giving three million unemployed people?
[97] Two recessions within a ten year period.
[98] What about the family living on Income Support, on poverty and deprivation?
[99] What choice do they have?
[100] The old age pension that's gonna get two pound fifteen.
[101] Thank you very much.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [102] Two pound fifteen.
[103] Two pound fifteen.
[104] The Tory Government, my Lord Mayor, has for too long denied people the real choice.
[105] But if the Tories opposite truly believe that they are the poi Party of choice, then let them have the courage to call a General Election.
(JJEPSUGP) [106] here here
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [107] Give the people of and this country the opportunity to show them what choice they're gonna make, and it won't be a Tory Government, it'll be a Labour Government.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [108] Councillor
(JJEPSUGP) [...] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [109] Actually it's quite a good speech from my opposition colleague there, but it's total nonsense really.
[110] It didn't do anything for the tenants of this city or didn't put any new proposals forward.
[111] It went straight away back to the old socialist ideology of fifty years ago.
[112] The Party choose, my Lord Mayor, the right to own one of the fundamental principles of Conservative philosophy, just as just as with Labour philosit philosophy, Labour will choose and Labour will own.
[113] That's your philosophy.
[114] Since the Tenants Right to Buy was first introduced in 1980 it's been constantly opposed by Labour and indeed the S L D who've taken their fat away.
[115] This is in marked contrast to the Conservative Government which has consistently supported policies to spread home ownership throughout the country, giving people the choice and the independence which home ownership brings.
[116] But, my Lord Mayor, Labour were not to know in the early eighties how popular the Tenants Right to Buy would be.
[117] Over one point two million houses bought by Council tenants of their own free will, so much so, my Lord Mayor, that some Labour politicians have had no choice but to do a U turn and give their support to the Right to Buy.
[118] My Lord Mayor, how could they not throw out their socialist ideology when so many Labour Councillors, Labour Councillors, were buying, and some in this very Chamber, were indeed buying their own Council house.
[119] It's now clear, my Lord Mayor, what the Labour Party has transferred has transferred it's opposition to Right to Buy in to opposition towards the new Rents to Mortgage.
[120] Typically, ten years too late.
[121] We can see from Labour's amendment J that Councillor , as I said earlier, intends to go down the same old socialist way of providing the very type of housing that is currently failing tenants.
[122] Lord Mayor, the Labour Group in have a way of bandying words about without any action.
[123] We've heard quite a bit of it tonight.
[124] One word they particularly like is, consultation.
[125] I would like to ask the current, and I emphasise the current, housing chairman, how much consultation he is being offered to our tenants.
[126] Has he for instance consulted them with their rights under the Tenants Charter?
[127] Has he consulted them on their right to choose another landlord under the Government's new Tenants Choice?
[128] Has he asked indeed the tenants who have not already bought their home if they would be interested in the Government's Rent to Buy housing scheme?
[129] Has he consulted with tenants on the benefits of transferring their estates to housing associations?
[130] My Lord Mayor, I think not.
[131] It's a sad indictment on our present housing chairman, when asked in committee about the changing roles of housing associations, he said, it's a bitter pill to swallow.
[132] Well, my Lord Mayor, with that kind of thinking, what hope have our tenants of ever raising their quality of life in our badly thought out Council estates?
[133] Council housing, as we know it, is not the answer.
[134] The role of Local Authorities as large scale landlords does simply not work.
[135] You only have to see some of run down estates for the evidence.
[136] It restricts the mobility of the family, it does not create pride of ownership, it does not give a sense of belonging within the community, it encourages crime and with the resultant loss of personal safety.
[137] The vast majority of people, Lord Mayor, Lord Mayor, the vast majority of people, the vast majority of people would wish to own their own home.
[138] We are the only Party who believe that every family has the right to their own home.
[139] Finally, my Lord Mayor, I welcome I welcome and support our motion, quite clearly taken from the brilliant speech made by the Prime Minister at Conservative Party Conference, and when and when the Conservative Government is re-elected next year, we will give the people the power to choose and we will give the people the right to own.
[140] Thank you, my Lord Mayor.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [141] Councillor [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [142] your lucky day.
[143] If I may start [clears throat] excuse me, my Lord Mayor, by answering something that appears to be confusing the Conservative benches.
[144] Despite my baby-faced good looks, I am actually old enough to remember 1979, I am also old enough to remember 1974, 1970, 1966, so I hope that's cleared up.
[145] I'm not gonna go back any further than that.
[146] But it does seem to me that, can you really trust a front bench, that can't work out that I might be slightly over the age of twenty one?
[147] If you listen to what the Tories are actually saying, it's the same old I'm alright Jack mentality.
[148] I can do it, I can afford it, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna get it for me and devil take the [...] .
[149] We've heard it all before.
[150] We're gonna hear it time and time again in the run up to the Election.
[151] There was no mention of the rights of people to combine collectively to have their views represented, no where in that, it was all me me me.
[152] The people at G C H Q, whose rights you lot took away, to joining Trade Unions, where are th where's their rights?
[153] Are you gonna restore them?
[154] Is Councillor gonna stand up and say that he believes in the right of people to join Trade Unions?
[155] I think not.
[156] We we should discuss a bit about this document and I too have had the er dubious honour of reading John Major's speech and it's nice to see that both Tory speakers have actually managed to take half of it each and paraphrase it.
[157] I think they have a cheek to complain about people writing other people's press releases when they can't even write their own speeches, they just take a bit of their leaders and claim it as their own.
[158] If you have ever actually looked at this document that they have produced for today's meeting, it is not a strategy, it's not a statement, it's just a trotting out of the old stories that have been knocked back time and time again, but if they're gonna bring it out, let's knock it back again.
[159] Let's look at some of the issues that aren't gonna be alluded to in other debates today.
[160] Let's start off with tax.
[161] The Tories have cut int income tax.
[162] Certainly, congratulations.
[163] They forget to mention a few other little things.
[164] V A T has risen from eight percent to seventeen and a half percent.
[165] National, there is no choice in paying your electricity bill, your gas bill, your water rates, where V A T has gone up.
[166] Don't talk to me about choice with that.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [167] National Insurance contributions have risen from six point five percent to nine percent and child benefit cuts have cost a family with two children a hundred and fifty four pounds.
[168] There was no choice and you're taking away rights in that.
[169] The poorest people in the country have had their tax burden trebled since 1979 and the tax burden has increased, for the average family, from thirty two percent of their income to over thirty three percent.
[170] Shareholding.
[171] Fine.
[172] More people own shares but, as a percentage of the number of shares held, the individual shareholding has fallen from thirty percent in 1979 to eighteen percent today, and if all these shareholders c turned up to exercise their right and their power at the annual meeting of British Telecom or British Gas, or any other, to say, we think it's outrageous the sort of money that you are now paying your chairs and your directors, what would happen?
[173] They would be out-voted by the pension funds, the banks, the city institutions, the paymasters of the Tory Party.
[174] We have heard a lot today about the [...] of the Trade Union.
[175] We've heard nothing about
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [176] their links with big business.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [177] Education.
[178] The issue about assisted places in the C T C is irrelevant to a majority of the people out there.
[179] It's especially irrelevant as you didn't even seem to introduce them when you were in control.
[180] We believe that people should have the choice and the choice and the rights that most people want is for their children to be educated in schools without water dripping down the walls, where the ceiling doesn't fall in, that doesn't rely on temporary classes.
[181] That's rights, that's choice.
[182] If you're talking, if you're talking about L M S giving people rights and choice, you haven't spoken to that many heads because most heads wanna get on with the business of educating people, not being financial bureaucrats trying to balance inadequate school budgets.
[183] Most governors also have work to go to and we don't and we don't
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [184] I did not say that and you would know it, Councillor .
[185] Basically, what we are faced with here is the standard Tory lies, the standard Tory attempt to dig themselves out of their hole.
[186] It's not a statement, it is a waste of paper and you should be ashamed to have bought it.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [187] The debate has now gone on for thirty minutes.
[188] Councillor
(JJEPSUNK) [189] My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put.
[190] I so move Lord Mayor.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [191] Somebody get the other group back in?
(JJEPSUNK) [192] Don't tell them
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [193] That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine, forty eight in mi as a matt as a mere mathematician I think that's carried.
[194] Those in favour of amendment F moved by Councillor please show.
[195] I'm sorry, it's J, it's me that can't read properly.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [196] That, that is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine and now becomes a substantive motion.
[197] Those in favour of the substantive motion please show.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [198] Those against?
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [199] That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [200] Move on to the next white paper motion on the Health Service Trust.
[201] Call upon Councillor to move the motion.
(JJEPSUNK) [202] So moved, Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [203] Seconded?
[204] Call upon Councillor to move amendment L standing in his name.
[205] Is there a seconder?
(JJEPSUNK) [206] Seconded Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [207] Call upon Councillor to move amendment M standing in his name.
[208] Is there a seconder?
(JJEPSUNK) [209] Seconded Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [210] In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting.
[211] What are the Council's wishes?
(JJEPSUNK) [212] That the Council deal with it at this meeting
(JJEPSUNK) [213] Those in favour?
[214] Unanimous.
[215] Councillor
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [216] I think I ought to remind you, all of us, the three basic principles of the National Health Service.
[217] One, that is should be free at the point of service.
[218] Two, that treatment offered should be on a basis of need and not ability to pay and thirdly, that it should be a comprehensive service for all people whatever background they come from.
[219] That's something that I strongly support and my Party does, and I believe a vast majority of the country support.
[220] There's been much debate recently about whether the Tories are going to privatise the Health Service in the future.
[221] I think it's actually a waste of time discussing that because they are already privatising the Health Service.
[222] Free at the point of service.
[223] One in nine of the operations carried out in the region now are done privately, and that's actually one in three in some parts of .
[224] That's not free at the point of service.
[225] Private hospitals are actually gonna charge women from outside sixty pounds for osteoporosis screening.
[226] I think that's disgusting and certainly it's not free at the point of service.
[227] The Government to introduce charges for eye tests and since then three million less eye tests have been carried out.
[228] Short term cuts, long term misery, and more problems for the Health Service.
[229] That's not free at the point of service.
[230] What about treatment on the basis of need?
[231] Surgeons in are being told to do less emergency operations because of the extra costs involved and in surgeons are ordered to give priority to patients who come from G P budget holders because there's more money coming from those budget holders, nothing to do with basis of need.
[232] A comprehensive service.
[233] You look at , they've transferred all their long term N H S care for the elderly to private nursing homes.
[234] Where's the power to choose for those elderly people that want free at the point of service National Health Service treatment?
[235] It was, or it has been, a belief that the N H S was for all of us from the cradle to the grave.
[236] It's now a sick joke in the Health Service, it's from the cradle to the Waldergrave.
(JJEPSUGP) [laugh]
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [237] The Trusts are in serious financial difficulties and may well be one million pound or two million pound in debt before the end of this financial year.
[238] And quite rightly, it's gonna be the subject of a Parliamentary Health Select Committee Enquiry which starts next week.
[239] Meanwhile, it's chief executive, it's brains, it's driving force, is getting out.
[240] He says, quote, there's unfish unfinished business for the Trust but not for me.
[241] And he's so desperate to get out he'll take a twenty thousand pound a year pay cut.
[242] He's obviously abandoning the sinking ship cos he knows what's happening to it.
[243] Now what effect is that gonna have on the staff who can't leave?
[244] Having said that, three hundred are been forced to leave, three hundred are being sacked, as we've heard before.
[245] Nurses are actually being sacked at .
[246] The official term is released, not sacked, released, made redundant.
[247] But that's been consistent because there are three thousand less nurses this year in the N H S than there were last year.
[248] I don't believe that's because people are being treated better, or more people are being treated better, but at a cost of eighty million pound, there are four thousand more managers or accountants, people brought in
(JJEPSUNK) [249] Under Labour it was cut by five percent.
[250] Doctors pay is up thirty nine percent after inflation, under Labour it was cut by seventeen percent.
[251] The Party that are the bastions of the Health Service.
[252] Just over one million additional hospital cases were treated in 1989, compared with seventy eight.
[253] The number of in- patients treated has increased by one point two million.
[254] Waiting lists have risen, as Councillor has already said, under every Labour Government, and fallen under every Conservative Government since the N H S was founded.
[255] That is fact.
[256] That is fact.
(JJEPSUGP) [shouting] [...] []
(JJEPSUNK) [257] It's ten o'clock.
[258] That is fact Lord Mayor and these facts will bear out.
[259] I challenge Councillor to bring me the evidence saying otherwise.
[260] So
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [261] if it's doing so well, oh and you wouldn't have been on that long under a Labour Government, of course, it would've been jobs for the boys, they'd've slipped you in I'm sure.
[262] So why do the Conservatives want to make changes then if we've got such a good record on health?
[263] The answer, as we have always said, is that there are always ways of improving services in addition to putting more money in.
[264] This is where we differ from the Labour Party, whose answer is always more money, more money, more money.
[265] The Conservative philosophy is not just to increase spending.
[266] Let's be more efficient and make the tax payers' money be used wisely.
[267] Let's take a look at the changes the Trusts, under N H S Trusts, staff can adapt their services more easily to suit the needs of local people.
[268] I thought this was what some of your policy was supposed to be all about.
[269] They can decide their own management and staffing structures, capital programmes and pay and conditions, except those of junior doctors.
[270] There is nothing unusual in the idea of hospitals managing themselves.
[271] It was only in 1974 that teaching hospitals were brought under Health Authority control.
[272] Although Trusts only came into operation in April ninety one, the evidence suggests that many, that many have improved patient services in many w many areas waiting lists have been cut through greater efficiency and increased use of day surgery.
[273] The organisation [...] and Company produced a report on N H S Trusts based on discussions with nearly sixty percent of the chief execs of the first wave.
[274] It said, the key finding of the survey is that an overwhelming majority of the Trusts are reporting an improved performance.
[275] On the eighteenth of August the Sunday Times published a survey of twenty five of the biggest Trust hospitals.
[276] It concluded more patients were being treated and waiting times had been cut.
[277] So what of Labour's scare tactics of privatisation?
[278] I'll quote you from the Daily Telegraph
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [279] That, that totally, just like the T and A, that totally unbiased paper.
[280] Lie is a nasty word.
[281] Lie is a nasty word and those in politics ten who use it tend to get hit by it on the rebound.
[282] Labour has been saying something it knows to be untrue.
[283] This is Mister Kinnock's words, that the Tories will privatise the Health Service.
[284] That seems to me to qualify as a false statement made with the intention of dise deceiving which is how the dictionary defines a lie.
[285] The Labour Party pose as the guardian of the N H S but when pressed they've not policies, only empty promises, no idea where the funding would come fo from to pay for their ill thought out pledges.
[286] Robin Cook, that great man the opposition, of the opposition, an immediate, well then let me quote ya, let me quote ya.
[287] I'm I'm pleased it's flavour of the month because it's just going to show you all when w when you listen to his words.
[288] An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust Programme and a long term commitment to restore N H S funding was promised yesterday by Robin Cook.
[289] But Mister Cook, health spokesman, declined to say how much extra money he thought the N H S needed, or the amount the future Labour Chancellor would be prepared to find.
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [290] An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust, sorry I'm reading the same thing again.
[291] The N H S will not be privatised under Conservatives, it will prosper from the reforms taking place.
[292] Finally, Lord Mayor, I believe everything I've said.
[293] I believe that the Labour Party know this is a lie.
[294] Councillor has put this motion in.
[295] No, it's your policy that if you tell the lie often enough people people believe it.
[296] Councillor , well well we'll find out, Councillor has put this motion in, I've wound it up Lord Mayor, I'll challenge him or any of his team to a public debate where we can look at the record about, name your place, name your time, I will, I will debate with you in public Councillor on our record of reforms and the Health Service.
[297] In return you must promise Council or that you will outline to the people of the Labour Party's plans for the N H S, and state where you will get the funding from.
[298] It's time to put up or shut up Councillor .
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [299] My Lord Mayor I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put.
[300] I so move, Lord Mayor.
(JJEPSUGP) [...] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [301] Just a minute.
[302] Before you before you all vote.
[303] Put your hands down a minute.
[304] I want to remind you that those who have declared an interest should not vote.
[305] Those in favour.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [306] Those against?
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [307] Mhm?
(JJEPSUNK) [308] [whispering] that's lost, forty eight, twenty six []
(JJEPSUNK) [309] That is lost by twenty eight to forty six.
[310] Those in favour of amendment L moved by Councillor .
[311] Two.
[312] Those against?
[313] Well it's obviously lost.
[314] Those in favour of the substantive motion please show.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [315] [whispering] Mhm?
[316] Forty four now [] .
[317] Those against?
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [318] That is carried, forty four votes to thirty.
[319] I now move on to black paper motion number six, Euro Cities.
[320] Call upon Councillor to move the motion. [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [321] Call upon Councillor to move amendment N standing in his name.
(JJEPSUNK) [322] I move Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [323] Seconded?
(JJEPSUNK) [324] Seconded Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [325] In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting.
[326] What are the Council's wishes?
(JJEPSUNK) [327] I propose it be debated at this meeting Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [328] Seconded?
(JJEPSUNK) [329] Seconded Lord Mayor
(JJEPSUNK) [330] All those in favour?
[331] Yes, ok.
[332] Councillor
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [333] I haven't started, I haven't started yet, just let me get it out my system.
[334] Are ya, are ya settled now?
[335] Are you settled?
[336] Are you settled?
[337] Right, right.
[338] Monsieur Le Mayor.
[339] Signor
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [340] My Lord Mayor, in case you hadn't noticed, foreign languages.
[341] But not foreign languages that are not new to .
[342] There's a serious, a serious side Lord Mayor, to that greeting cos I just looked at the number of companies that are owned this shareholders scheme that they like to promote, the number of companies that're owned by foreign nationals.
[343] of owned by the Swiss,, owned by the Germans,, owned by German, a large number of companies under foreign ownership.
[344] One reason, one major reason why got to play a pa a role in Europe, to po protect the interests of the work force within and I make no apologies for any of the visits that any of our members have been on because they've all been worthwhile.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [345] and you know, tonight, tonight, tonight I wanted to, I wanted to have a knock about with my old sparring partner but he's ill, he's very ill from what I've heard tonight and he should go see a doctor.
[346] Because, because Councillor don't take my advice tonight, and I never thought I'd be thankful to but take advantage of what says what you should do.
[347] Something about casseroles, I don't understand that.
[348] But the Euro Cities and the position of in Europe is of tremendous importance because of the failure of your Government to recognise the needs of this district and the nis needs of this region.
[349] We've heard, so eloquently said by many of my comrades tonight, about the problems right across the sectors affecting and I congratulate each and every one on their contribution tonight.
[350] We're not gonna waste time explaining things to you and fortunately, through our friends, through out friends in the T and A, we don't have to waste time.
[351] The message gets out.
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [352] There's many factors, many factors, and I'd like to pay congratulations to Councillor I think it was, or the member certainly that came to the Economic er Sub-committee that discussed the European report back because there we did have a proper discussion about the value of those trips.
[353] But for those that weren't there, let me explains some of the good reasons why we're involved.
[354] Evidence of the European Commission experts that strategic alliance between cities are likely to form the basis of future business links.
[355] Action endorsed by our own Chamber of Commerce and by our own business leaders in this city on the visits that we took place.
[356] previous track record in Europe, and Councillor , you can't have it both ways.
[357] You claim on the one hand how wonderful you were in securing grants for under the I D O. You actually sold this city short because you went for the I D O without making sure that your Government paid the extra money that robbed that robbed
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [358] that robbed social services, education and housing.
[359] You know it's true.
[360] The first visit to Brussels, the amend , the first visit to Brussels we had to go and bail you out because the Commission, the Commission, we could have been in this [...] er
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [361] the Commission were gonna pull the plug on because of your failure while you were in control to adhere to the programme
(JJEPSUNK) [362] here here
(JJEPSUNK) [363] to adhere to the programme because the newly privatised the newly privatised Water Authority and British Rail couldn't affo couldn't afford the finance to put their share in to the grants from Brussels.
[364] That's what happened, so that's a reality.
(JJEPSUNK) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [365] You're a wonderful s you're a wonderful speaker but wait til I've finished.
[366] Right.
[367] The position on Euro Cities also is that we , and unfortunately are the leading European cities that are involved in promoting good initiatives on the expertise of what exists within , be it economic development, be it equal opportunities policies, we are promoting this city and the benefit of getting those grants and having those foresight of putting officers into Brussels means that is being invited by other cities within Europe and Eastern Europe to develop links based on what our expertise is.
[368] Because the difference between us and the Tories is when we mean we support for Eastern Europe, we don't just talk about it glibly, we go there and we do it because we see the future of Europe being the future of our own people here in .
[369] Sixty million pounds this Council has got out of Europe.
[370] The costs of the trips.
[371] Brussels related, the cost of the trips, less than one percent.
[372] A nonsense view to attack that.
[373] But then listening, listening to what you've been attacking tonight, I'm very sad really that that's all you've got to offer.
[374] A weak Tory group that doesn't say anything positive about anything.
[375] That has a go, an attack, about everything because you've been rejected so many times, so many times, and will continue to be rejected when we get the next election that you're frightened to death to have.
[376] Opting out of hospitals of the N H S, opting skills out of L M S and trying to opt out of Europe.
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [377] I hope you I hope you get better.
[378] Bye.
[379] I didn't realise it were that exciting.
(JJEPSUGP) [laugh]
(JJEPSUNK) [380] Going back to what I was saying.
[381] Opting out of schools, opting out of the N H S and trying to opt out of Europe, but what you forgot is that your leader signed a document that says you can't opt out of Europe.
[382] You can argue about single currency but you can't opt out of the European Single Market.
[383] And that's a serious side to cos if we in Council don't lead the way to the way that we're trying through the Euro Cities by offering what's good in to Europe, developing those links so that we can share them with the [...] community here and other cultural links, then we're doing a dis- service.
[384] We've got a grant of sixty million.
[385] We're able to entice further revenue out of Brussels with the support of the private sector.
[386] And they're not having a go, they're not having a go, they're saying what can we do to assist?
[387] Can we go with ya?
[388] They're talking about going with us certainly, but they're doing it in a positive way because they see what the future is.
[389] You're trying to shut your eyes to 1993, that's what you're trying to do, and you're trying to pull the rest of us down with it, well it ain't gonna happen.
[390] The next steps, cos we aren't gonna be frightened by your tinpot threats about y'know, junketing etcetera.
[391] It's no fun for me to be away from my family, away from home.
[392] It's no fun for my colleagues to be away.
[393] But what we do, what we do is put first, do it properly.
[394] Many European cities, many European cities are making great efforts, Strasbourg, Brussels, Barcelona, leading cities within Europe.
[395] I'm proud that name's up there.
[396] A video was done about European funding.
[397] was in there, in that video.
[398] The fact a small region, and we call ourselves a region, that's how we got the grants, we now see ourselves developing to support our colleagues in and see the need for a strong regional approach which my colleague will mention later.
[399] It's important to this city, both in a financial way, in a cultural way, in the development of the human race, that we make Europe work.
[400] You've turned us that route because your Government have switched away from what matters from British people that we represent.
[401] Not from those that've got the money to choose, as my colleagues have said, but for those that need to develop and have the opportunity to develop further.
[402] I believe that your amendment is typical of the way you've contributed tonight, that you're not really sure for certain about what you're saying and why you're saying it.
[403] Public debates, Councillor , well I'll have any of ya.
[404] I'll probably debate anywhere on contribution within Europe.
[405] Any format, any format.
[406] And then you try to turn the argument about attacks on individuals.
[407] Public debate is what it's all about.
[408] We've had that public debate and we've got the support from the people of for what we're doing within Europe.
[409] There's a long way to go because many of these companies that we've mentioned are gonna fight fierce competition from Europe and we need to assist them.
[410] They've not looked hasn't British industry because of the attacks it's been under on what Europe has to offer in terms of better training, better health and safety etcetera and we need to bring that information to them.
[411] I'm sure that er those thinking members that are left within the Tory group, if there are any thinking members left, will realise the benefits of what we're about and will support the future economic strategy that this Council needs to adopt.
[412] So I have pleasure in putting the record straight.
[413] I'm not gonna indulge [...] about politics with the [...] of Europe, I believe that what we're saying is the right way forward and I hope you'll wholeheartedly support our resolution.
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping] [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [414] Councillor [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUNK) [415] the E E C's Euro Citizens Initiative.
[416] We should ask ourselves, are we a country of opportunists?
[417] And without a doubt our history, the commonwealth of nations and business acumen prove this.
[418] We can develop in Europe only within the guidelines set out by Central Government, a Government quite clear that a joining of the attitudes and minds is desirable, not federalism.
[419] The [...] and their self-opinionated Premier, Jacques Delores, must be told clearly that we stand for co-operation of Western style democracy, not the old Eastern block style of all encompassing socialist state with the dead hand of Brussels directing policies, as Moscow did with the U S S R. Freedom of the independent nation and people must confer.
[420] My Lord Mayor, after setting the parameters, I do feel that can continue it's good relations with our other cities and use Brussels as a tool to this end.
[421] Yes, Euro Cities is an organisation of Brussels but it must not be allowed to dominate the proceedings and massage and manage the cities.
[422] It must be free city to city co-operation within a loose association with Brussels.
[423] We have seen the stupidity of the E E C agriculture programme.
[424] This must be avoided in Euro Cities.
[425] Euro Cities can be a sound tool for co-operation and our officers must be at the forefront with the Chambers of Trade of Commerce, and Development Association and all, all of which have expertise in Europe.
[426] Both agencies that the chief executive's office refers to frequently.
[427] However, we must ask, what of our Euro M P's?
[428] There seems to be little work from the Labour local member.
[429] Perhaps this is why, in addition to officers attending meetings, Labour Councillors need to improve their self indulgence by going into Europe on junkets.
[430] There are issues across Europe that we need to be aware of as a city.
[431] However, we need to conserve financial prudence and only send members occasionally, with officers more frequently.
[432] We need to liaise with Europe as a city but there must be three provisos.
[433] One, that we ca that we only go when a clear brief from Brussels officers cannot be established, and not a trip just for the lads which was reminiscent of the last hastily organised trips.
[434] Two, that we do not become wrapped up in the Bureaucratic socialism of Brussels and that true entrepreneur spirit is encouraged between cities.
[435] And three, that financial prudence and co- operation with the private sector are adopted for the good of our city.
[436] Councillor , we all remember 1983 when Labour voted to withdraw from Europe and then wanted to re-negotiate in 1984.
[437] This is the Party who are now playing the Euro card with cynicism.
[438] Labour are in, Labour are out, or is it now, how best can they play to win votes?
(JJEPSUNK) [439] here here
(JJEPSUNK) [440] My Lord Mayor, at the Economic Strategy Sub-committee meeting recently, we were asked to adopt from Florence, an objective two statement which was not clear and did not translate precisely.
[441] It is typical of the controlling group's over enthusiasm for the photo press opportunity that they're anxious to sign anything, even if the policies are not clear.
[442] With reference to the Euro visits in September, thirteen trips since last summer to Europe.
[443] Seven Labour Councillors and twenty three officers, cutting twenty three thousand pounds of Charge payers' money is totally unnecessary when liaison groups already exist within the chief executive's office, the Development Association and the Regional Association, on which we all have representatives.
[444] If Labour had supported our idea [...] in it's early stage, we would now have spent over seventy percent of the funds available in the five year cycle.
(JJEPSUNK) [445] here here
(JJEPSUNK) [446] Not the miserable thirty four percent spent at the moment, all due to Labour slowing down the regeneration of our district by delaying financial support.
[447] Officers need to correlate information and if visits are necessary they should decide, with the chief executive's support, the need to visit Europe, not Labour Councillors on a junket costing twenty thousand out of the pockets of our Charge payers.
[448] We support liaison but not self indulgence by Labour Councillors.
[449] Even that auguste paper, the T and A, in the editorial, recently stated, we cannot afford the extravagance of going along just to see the party, just to be at the party.
[450] Councillor must also remember that , and other major companies have a overseas branches of their company.
[451] It is not just a one-way traffic as he tried to er indicate.
[452] We have no objection to the principle of a motion on involvement across Europe, especially following our recent friend's city's re-emergence into democracy as both of us can benefit from future E C funds.
[453] However, we need to be satisfied that members' visits are essential and we will ensure that the details behind Labour's motion are monitored closely.
[454] We have officer liaison groups.
[455] Let them get on with it and use their capabilities to the full.
[456] We, as members, should not sit on their desks and tell them exactly where to go.
[457] That is why we put forward our amendment and hope against all hope that Labour may see the light and vote with us on our amendment.
[458] Thank you Lord Mayor. [tape breaks here]
(JJEPSUGP) [clapping]
(JJEPSUNK) [459] Councillor
(JJEPSUNK) [460] Thank you Lord Mayor.
[461] is a European city, but not just that, is a city that leads in Europe.
[462] It's a city because of it's rich cultural heritage and it's expertise in Local Government affairs that has much to offer those emerging local democracies in Eastern Europe.
[463] And yes, we can teach them about partnership, Councillor and I think it's hypocrisy for the Tories to talk about links with the private sector.
[464] The private sector didn't know where you were for two years.
[465] I've got a very interesting quote here.
[466] The scale of our achievement is a result of a great deal of hard work on the part of officers and Councillors.
[467] We had the foresight to assess the situation and successfully sell case.
[468] Now, I I could have said that but of course it was Councillor .
[469] But there is a new situation emerging because the speakers on the opposite side seem to have forgotten what's happened in the last two years in Eastern Europe and the European map is getting wider.
[470] Lord Mayor, I'd like to get beyond the hype and [...] because I suspect the real reason behind the criticisms of the leader of the opposition is because the chief executive didn't invite him on one or two of these trips, because
(JJEPSUGP) [...]
(JJEPSUNK) [471] if if the stories of are to be believed, and who would doubt him, is that the kind of person that wants as an ambassador in Europe?
[472] Nobody on this side of the Council Chamber wants a junket.
[473] Like Councillor , personally I've got better things to do, like being at home.
[474] But I believe that the decisions made to go on the trips this autumn have been good ones.
[475] I would apologise unreservedly if I thought any of them have been a mistake but I don't believe they have been.
[476] Any decision that has been made has been with the best intentions of the people of at heart, to maintain as a leading European city and to derive benefits for the people of this community.
[477] I'd just like to say a few words on the conferences that I attended.
[478] The Euro Cities Conference in , and this is where the Tories fall down on the facts, because Councillor doesn't really understand what Euro Cities is about.
[479] Euro Cities is a group of independent cities who're putting pressure on Brussels to maintain funding in urban areas after the review of the structural funds in 1993.
[480] And, because of that pressure, the pressure that's already been put on, we got good news at .
[481] The European Commissions Director for regional policy said that he'd accepted the submission from Euro Cities that funding would be made available for urban areas.
[482] We need to make sure that that pressure stays on because urban areas, as we know with the City Challenge bid and others, have got distinct and unique problems which we need to address.
[483] The Euro Cities Conference was also important because it was the founding of that organisation formally and it was important to go there and say to the big monopoly that's emerging it's