| PS488 | X | m | (Michael, age unknown, police superintendent) unspecified |
| PS489 | X | m | (Drake, age unknown, judge) unspecified |
| PS48A | X | m | (Denser, age unknown, barrister) unspecified |
| PS48B | X | m | (Isles, age unknown, police sergeant) unspecified |
| PS48C | X | m | (John, age unknown, police sergeant) unspecified |
| JJWPSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| JJWPSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[1] Was genuine ... he added at this time that er the further information was that the occupants of the flat at were frightened of . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[2] H h he had, what did he say? [3] ... He thought they were frightened or the telephonist or or what? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[4] Er my Lord, the added bit of information that was, that ... erm ... was then passed to me was that when the man rang the police station the information that he gave to the telephonist included the fact that the occupants of the flat were frightened . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[5] Right right. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[6] [...] said he went to the police station but it follows that you were were at home which [...] . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[7] I was at home er up until that point. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[8] Were you on duty at home or off duty at home? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[9] I was off duty, but on call. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[10] On making those further enquiries you've just told us about at the police station. [11] ... Did you er, were you satisfied the operation should continue as discussed with Assistant Chief Officer . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[12] I also met the ... police station er Sergeant and ... and ... after discussing further the matters with him ... erm then I was happy [...] an armed operation was ... er was necessary. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[13] Superintendent if any other information had come to light ... over the next few hours would you have ... reconsidered the matter? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[14] Depending on the information, yes ... erm. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[15] So without really putting it more bluntly er, was there always the option to call this off? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[16] There was always the option to call this off ... er to the very last moment when erm I gave the order for the officers to go in. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[17] Was there at some time then, a briefing for the officers who were going to go into the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[18] Yes, [clears throat] it was five fifteen A M of the following morning, at . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[19] Who conducted the briefing? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[20] Sergeant ... mainly er gave the briefing [clears throat] and after going through the formality of giving er the officers the deb the information that had been received [clears throat] er our intention ... erm a method by which we going to follow this through erm and other information such as radio call signs. [21] ... erm ... I then asked er additional questions to see what the ... up to the minute information was at that time. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[22] [...] at that meeting were you satisfied the operation should continue? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[23] Yes I I was ... erm ... the additional information that was available to me at this time, er Sergeant the ... er having left me the previous night er had actually, had gone to the premises erm, gone to the flats erm and had er ... put himself in the area of the flat and ... was able to tell me that he had heard voices, two male voices coming from within the flat. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[24] Did you yourself ... take part in the operation to go in with the guns? [25] ... In other words did you [...] the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[26] Er, no ... er that ... only armed officers actually erm would go into the flat. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[27] So you were not. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[28] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[29] What was your role during the search? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[30] I was the commander and ... er I was erm in a control vehicle, a police vehicle, er was parked nearby to the flat. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[31] And what is that ... vehicle called, is it only. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[32] Well it is the, it's the control vehicle er which contains myself and my tactical advisor er Sergeant . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[33] Yes. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[34] And we were in radio contact with the firearms team. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[35] The same consideration given Superintendent to ... the question of medical facilities. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[36] Yes ... we were actually erm, the position of the ... control vehicle was erm in front of an ambulance that we had asked to to be there and the crew were briefed as to what we were doing ... and ... and what injuries possibly could arise. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[37] Did you [...] for the operation? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[38] I did so, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[39] Do you remember the ... approximate time of that. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[40] [clears throat] I think it was about six A M. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[41] And did you ... in due course, go to the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[42] Yes I did. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[43] When did you go to the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[44] Er ... it was a short time after, having given the order for the officers to enter the flat, erm ... maybe three or four minutes after that ... erm, having received the information that the flat was secure, it was safe to enter ... er I then went up to the flat. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[45] Did Sergeant accompany you to the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[46] No he did not. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[47] Sergeant? |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | |
| Drake (PS489) |
[48] yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[49] [...] ... On arriving at the flat ... did you speak to Mr ? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[50] Yes ... er it would be more accurate to say he spoke to me. [51] ... He he was very excitable, excitable and he was angry ... erm ... he was shouting at me ... er that he'd been spreadeagled naked er on the floor, guns had been pointed at him and his front door had been smashed down ... and his er his family, his wife and children had been frightened. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[52] Pausing there Superintendent. [53] When you first saw Mr ... was he wearing anything upon the lower part of his body? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[54] He had his trousers on. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[55] Was he ... still handcuffed or were the handcuffs off? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[56] He was not handcuffed. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[57] Did you say anything to him? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[58] Yes I did ... er ... I sh I won't say the exact words but they were words to the effect that er ... that I was sorry, that I understood and appreciated that er ... erm his family would have been terrified by the experience. [59] Erm that we had no alternative to do what we did ... er that C I D officers would speak to him and I believe that he would better understand er wh why we have done what we did ... er and I assured him that the damage to his door will would be repaired. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[60] Did you speak to er Mrs at all? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[61] I did not, no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[62] [...] how long had you been in the police force? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[63] Er thirty two years. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[64] So could you [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[65] When you rang ... [...] what did you know about the occupiers of the flat. [66] That is how many there were and who they were? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[67] I knew that ... er ... Mr er lived there ... and probably his wife, er maybe nothing more. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[68] Sorry, but maybe nothing more. [69] Did you know any more or didn't you know any more? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[70] Well I I've answered that way sir, cos I can't be sure. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[71] Well let me put it plainly, did you or did you not know that there were two children or three children indeed in that flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[72] I at no time, erm ... until after the incident, knew that. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[73] Did you make any enquiries and if so what enquiries, to try to find out who the occupiers [...] ? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[74] Only from ... a record that would have been available at the police station or from officers knowledge. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[75] Well what did those enquiries reveal? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[76] That Mr er ... did live at the flat erm with his wife, there may have been children but we didn't know for certain and that the previous night two male persons appeared to have been there. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[77] So when Assistant Chief Constable told the jury yesterday I would have discussed the question of who were the occupiers before giving my authority ... that was, do you remember that [...] . [78] That was presumably then that we think Lawrence was there, it's flat, we think his wife's there. [79] There may be children. [80] That [...] . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[81] If I think that [...] yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[82] Now ... this sort of er ... I don't want to use the word raid. [83] This sort of operation needs to be authorised and [...] doesn't it? [84] ... Not just the arming of the ... officers, that needs one authorisation but on forcible entry needs another authorisation doesn't it? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[85] Erm ... no sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[86] So you made the decision that there'd be a forcible entry to this flat, is that right? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[87] Yes sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[88] At six in the morning. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[89] Yes sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[90] But you say that that decision and the reasons for it were never ... er, and the authority for it, the reasons for it, were never reduced to [...] . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[91] Er, the only authority that was given was the authority to arm the officers by ... Mr which he would have put in to writing, er he was aware as to the method of entry to the of the flat ... but that ... no authority, no written authority was given for that. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[92] What my solicitors finding from a letter ... let me tell you why I ask. [93] There was a police complaints authority investigation into all of this. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[94] That is correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[95] The letter which has just been found ... refers to something like called a police operational order authorising the raid, saying that [...] had disappeared by the time the police complaints authority started looking for it. [96] Have you any idea what that refers to? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[97] Yes I have ... er it would refer to the operational order. [98] Erm the, it refers to ... an operational order er, an operational order ... is not a document that actually authorises police officers to do something. [99] It it sets out ... erm what the information is, er what the intention is, the method that we would follow er any communications, any administration. [100] It's a, it's a briefing document so that er all those involved are, that all those that are involved on the operation erm, are as well informed as is possible. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[101] Erm, I'm at a lost on this. [102] You're being asked erm you told us you rang up the Assistant Chief Constable who gave you the authority to carry out the armed operation. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[103] Yes my Lord. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[104] Now at that stage ... you were doing it on the telephone were you? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[105] That's correct my Lord. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[106] So you didn't have a letter there and then and [...] asked something about was it put into writing. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[107] No no no er [...] |
| Michael (PS488) |
[108] Well that, sorry I I I've lost it, so let's [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[109] A Mr yesterday, he was just authorising the use of firearms and he said that was put into writing and we've got that form but that only authorises the issue of firearms ... er the practicality, the authorising and the carrying out of the raid isn't covered by that document. [110] It's covered by the document this officer's [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[111] And when does the authority to issue the firearms, when's that signed? |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[112] Er ... it was er ... well it said, [...] I think [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[113] Lord would it help if, [...] the issue of firearms authorisation which was signed by Assistant Chief Constable |
| Drake (PS489) |
[114] I really wanted to know when it was done. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[115] The verbal authoris authorisation was given at seven fifty ... P M on the fourth of December and there was a subsequent tactical, the tactical advisor Sergeant spoke to the Assistant Chief Constable at eight fifteen. [116] Both those times are recorded, I've got copies for the jury. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[117] But I'm I I I'm not sure what relevance it is, I mean is this some procedure that it's got to be reduced into writing? |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[118] My Lord if I can help. [119] I think what what point is being made is ... er albeit from assistance from should have been referred [...] is that an operation will always have been drawn up. [120] It's a very simple matter and it it, there's no [...] so even if the jury are about to hear it from the witness. [121] Which [...] like the breaching order in effect. [122] It just sets out the information with any further suggestions. [123] Sergeant will give evidence as to why he supported it afterwards. [124] [...] there's no legal [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[125] No right then, the ... we know this er ... isn't an issue that the Assistant Chief Constable said you can go ahead with this operation. [126] Well I I I'm not sure what ... what document is now being referred to. [127] Some document that erm was produced and lost at some point or. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[128] My Lord, I think the case is being made if I may say so sir, to give the jury the impression that the police just [...] document. [129] The police destroyed the document in question, they'll tell you why they have destroyed it [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[130] There was here some enquiry and the that enquiry as a matter of public policy I understand the documents aren't to be available, even if they assist the police, or if they assist the other side. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[131] But my Lord. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[132] It's simply something that we're all bound by. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[133] My Lord yes, [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[134] Yes well then I'm not sure,wh what is this document Mr ? |
| Denser (PS48A) |
[135] As er the officer was saying it's a briefing document prepared before the raid, therefore of course it's not covered by public interest immunity. [136] The reason I'm in it is that document, as the officer says, sets out the information given as the offer as the officer put it. [137] That is the information on which the police were acting when they decided it was reasonable to take this action. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[138] Right. |
| Denser (PS48A) |
[139] I just wanted to know what that information was, that's all. [140] But if the document doesn't exist, it doesn't exist unless ... you can remember what the information was on that document but I would imagine [...] . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[141] Only that it would have contained the information er as I've detailed already. [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[142] Now would you, I think it must be right that you were at the [...] at five fifteen in the morning conducted by Sergeant . |
| Michael (PS488) |
[143] Yes sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[144] Broadly ... were the policemen being told they were dealing with a hostage situation, or a harbouring situation? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[145] I'm not actually sure that either ... er was mentioned erm, what they would have been told ... er was that there was an escaped prisoner there er who was armed ... and our intention was to arrest him. [146] Now I do not actually recall ... er us going into detail about the [...] harbouring ... er and I certainly don't recall erm that we were talking about a hostage situation. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[147] Well it's just that ... it's the Chief Constable's case that when ... er er sorry when was ... got from his bed he was told that he was being arrested for harbouring ... and escapee ... Lawrence . [148] Have you any idea ... which ever officer said that ... formed the impression that it was a harbouring situation? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[149] No ... er ... that is a matter for the officer er to answer. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[150] The only other thing is this. [151] The armed police went into the flat and you and Sergeant stayed in the control vehicle. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[152] Yes sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[153] Some time subsequently ... you yourself went to the flat. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[154] Yes sir. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[155] Did any ... other police officers go into the flat in, to your knowledge, go into the flat in that interval. [156] I mean after the armed police officers but before you? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[157] It's quick like quite likely that C I D officers [...] almost certainly, C I D officers would have gone before me. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[158] So when Mr said that ... the firearms office [...] majority of language, when the firearms officer said wait for the C I D and then ... some other policemen arrived and then you, that may well be right because from what you say it may well be that the C I D did get to the flat after the officers but before [...] ? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[159] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[160] Great. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[161] My Lord I have no real examination to do, does your Lordship have any questions? |
| Drake (PS489) |
[162] Er and where would the se . [163] You were in a car, the control car. |
| Michael (PS488) |
[164] Yes my Lord. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[165] How far away from the flat? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[166] Initially ... probably about er three hundred yards er in a in a side junction erm, but as, once the ins once the operation had commenced erm we moved up ... onto the car park actually on, below the flats. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[167] And erm, where were the C I D officers whilst the armed officers went in? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[168] I'm not actually sure ... erm. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[169] Well would they be close at hand? |
| Michael (PS488) |
[170] They would have been close at hand my Lord ... erm ... I just don't know, it may be that, I think they were probably in a vehicle also close at hand ready to [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[171] Yes. [172] ... Yes, thank you erm Mr . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[173] My Lord I call er Sergeant . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[174] Take the book in your hand and repeat after [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[175] I swear by Almighty God. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[176] I swear by Almighty God. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[177] That the evidence I shall give. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[178] That the evidence I shall give. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[179] Shall be the truth. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[180] Shall be the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[181] The whole truth. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[182] The whole truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[183] And nothing but the truth. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[184] And nothing but the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[185] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[186] Sergeant [...] tell [...] where you currently live. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[187] I live in er a province of in Spain my Lord. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[188] And er [...] retired from the police force now? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[189] I have yes. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[190] I thought it was exclusively terrible criminals that live in that part of the world. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[191] Perhaps I've been watching too much television ... yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[192] Wh when did you retire Sergeant ? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[193] I retired in er September last year, nineteen ninety two. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[194] And in ... December of nineteen eighty eight, er what was your rank and where were you positioned? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[195] I was a Sergeant at er police headquarters and my duties ... amongst er others was as a senior tactical advisor for the police force ... on firearms matters. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[196] My Lord, first of all ... can I just ask whether you could ... tell the jury something about the training of firearms officers? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[197] Yes. [198] Initially er ... all firearms officers by the nature of the duties, are volunteers. [199] They receive no extra remuneration whatsoever for their duties although at some times of course it can be quite dangerous. [200] ... Er, applications are accepted from all officers who have completed ... a two year period of probation and no applications are considered whilst an officer is in his probation. [201] First and foremost erm there is an assessment of those officers by their immediate supervisors and er a [...] then ensues whereby er suitable officers are s selected to come for a two day assessment at er police headquarters. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[202] Just pausing there [...] , I think it will become relevant. [203] What is the purpose of that assessment by the police? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[204] The assessment by the police is to eliminate erm ... any officer that ... er has ... psychopathic tendencies ... or er ... on the other side of the coin, to eliminate those officers that erm might be so timid that they wouldn't be able to perform the duties should it be necessary for them to fire ... a weapon. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[205] You eliminate those who are too timid or those you think are too aggressive. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[206] Precisely my Lord. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[207] So Mr it would perhaps be right to think then that you're looking for ... cover for the firearms unit? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[208] Certainly not no, certainly not. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[209] And after they've that [...] psychological assessment. [210] Is there any other assessment of their capabilities? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[211] Yes er a physical assessment er ... takes place, they're given er a medical, eyesight, hearing tests ... and going on from that er er a one day assessment in the actual use of firearms takes place before they are actually selected to er attend a preliminary course of two weeks duration. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[212] And what does the preliminary two week course involve? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[213] It involves all aspects of erm the law in relation to firearms, their issue, their use ... er great emphasis placed on er section three of the criminal law act in respect of the use of ... reasonable force. [214] ... Their actual ability to fire a weapon, a hand gun in this case. [215] Their ... ability to react to given situations using slide and a film projector images ... and er a written examination at the er end of it, plus a full classification ... shoot whereby they have to reach a certain standard ... erm of ... ability in order to er pass the two week course. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[216] Mr [...] I assume it's [...] are they free to go out and use firearms? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[217] No ... erm ... they are then authorised and issued with an authorisation card following the successful completion of the course to carry a firearm on police duties if required ... er, the authorisation is issued by ... either the Chief Constable or ... er his deputy and ... that would enable the officer if required to go an armoury at one of the police stations ... and produce his card and be issued with a weapon if necessary. [218] That card er contains information ... er regarding er the law and er instructions to the officer ... in addition each officer receives er a set amount of training per month. [219] At the time of this incident ... the incident was carried out by a group of officers ... who were called the operational support unit. [220] ... Those officers were especially selected ... from erm the firearms officers we had available at that time ... and they were responsible for all firearms operations within the county. [221] They've trained in addition to the once a month or even twice a month, they've trained whenever their duties allowed. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[222] Mr in December nineteen eighty eight, how long had you been a firearms officer, or tactical advisor? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[223] I [...] an authorised officer in nineteen sixty eight, so it'd have been twenty years and ... er from there I became er an instructor in nineteen eighty four ... er having successfully completed a number of national ... run courses on firearms, firearms tactics at the national school of firearms ... er which are in the metropolitan district and er ... Lancashire and West Yorkshire. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[224] And ... just finally on the [...] Mr ... are you able to put an approximate number, er figure to the ... number of such operations you've been involved in? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[225] Hundreds. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[226] Could you tell us what your role was in the operation ... to go into ? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[227] Yes er my role was the tactical advisor on this operation ... and ... in doing that . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[228] What were the name [...] what does tactical advisor mean? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[229] It meant because of my experience and my knowledge I was erm able to advise the Superintendent in charge, Mr , on ... the various options that were available to him and also erm ... advise him whether he was considering other options, whether they would be safe or otherwise. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[230] Do you [...] remember at what time you were contacted ... approximately? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[231] I think about eight o'clock in the evening at home. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[232] Did you then go to ? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[233] Yes I did. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[234] And ... did you go to the planning question at all before the operation? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[235] Yes I did. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[236] And when was that? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[237] I recollect about half past ten that evening on the fourth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[238] And er what was [...] in the flat? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[239] It wasn't my intention originally to go to the flat, it was my intention to ... reconnoitre the area ... in order that I could supply the officers who were going to do ... the actual operation with up to date information as to ... erm ... the methods of getting in to the block of flats because they had a coded key door ... erm and to acquaint myself of the actual physical erm ... presence of lifts, stairways and that sort of thing. [240] ... As it was er ... quite late on a Sunday evening I did in fact take the opportunity ... to ... listen at the door of the flat in question. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[241] And what did you hear ... anything? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[242] Yes, I heard ... two men speaking ... and the possibility of either another man or a woman also in the premises. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[243] And as a result of that ... reconnoitre, where did you then go? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[244] I then returned back to the er ... police station where I commenced to write the operational order in respect of the incident. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[245] And is the operational order ... er the document that is being referred to be the plaintiff's council. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[246] Yes it is. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[247] And what would you put in that document? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[248] The document is ... basically a briefing document in order that ... every piece of information ... erm that is available to the police is then able to be passed on to the officers who are actually going to do the job. [249] So they they are fully aware ... of the implications and ... er fully aware of exactly what ... is required of them. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[250] Sergeant before I take you on to deal with the briefing itself, I just want to go back and ask you one thing. [251] The jury [...] twenty years in time and with the information you had from ... Superintendent , did you consider that instead of mounting a an operation like that, you should simply surround the flat or be [...] with [...] . [252] Did you consider that? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[253] Yes it was considered. [254] Er in fact it was put to me as as an option by Superintendent that this could be, if this could be done ... er at the time er ... if I recall ... one of the reasons erm ... that we weren't able to do it in such a way ... was that there are numerous ... exits to the block of flats and each exit would have had to be covered by at least two armed officers ... we only only had in the region of twenty five officers available to us at that time in the police who were authorised to be armed ... and to maintain such a surveillance, erm not only would be ... very costly in the terms of the number of officers. [255] ... There would have to be changes of shifts, er and the likelihood that the operation to erm, the surveillance operation would be compromised as a result. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[256] How long do firearms officers spend on such a surveillance shift? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[257] The minimum amount of time that is necessary er in ... an operation such as this ... when the operation is finished the officers are then allowed to go home, that's the end of their shift because erm ... there's a great deal of adrenalin flows on an operation like this. [258] On a surveillance operation ... we are looking at, I wouldn't like to see an officer who is armed, more than six hours ... in that position. [259] His ability to A function as a surveillance office and B to function as a armed officer after being maybe in the er in a vehicle for that length of time ... er is ... both dangerous to the public and dangerous to him. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[260] Yes [...] there are four exits and entrances to this block of flats with two officers on each entrance, that's eight officers to start with. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[261] Presumably you have a command post? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[262] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[263] So that's ... within six hours you would have worked your way through ... more than half of your compliment of armed officers? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[264] Correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[265] That's ignoring sickness, holiday and everything else? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[266] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[267] And do we understand from your reference, that it's ... your policy that armed officers should do that job and then get home, get out of the way and relax a bit? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[268] Yes, that is correct ... erm ... in my experience er both being ... erm on armed incidents er ... the adrenalin flow is tremendous, the officers are erm ... concentrating one hundred and fifty percent on their task in hand and it is very tiring work. [269] It's a constant threat of danger and ... after debrief ... which takes place in the police station, erm ... relaxation is necessary erm, we have the availability of er stress counselling ... as well and ... a period of about two hours normally elapses before the officers is ... er reasonably able to ... er function as a normal police officer again and because of this er it has been decided that the officer's duties for that day er will be terminated. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[270] They're not like junior house doctors who do a ninety two hour week ... just work until they drop? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[271] They often do ninety two hours a week but erm ... wouldn't do ninety two hours a week on an operation, certainly not. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[272] Well let's move on now to try to ... the briefing. [273] Did you conduct the briefing? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[274] Yes, in conjunction with Superintendent . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[275] And when did you conduct it? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[276] Er the briefing was held at er the briefing room at ... at five fifteen A M on the [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[277] And ... who selected the officers for the operation? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[278] The officers for the operation were selected by their commander ... erm the inspector in charge of the operational support unit. [279] I would ask him ... on authorisation from er the Assistant Chief Constable, I would ask him for a number of officers. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[280] And how many did you ask for in this case? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[281] Six armed officers, but I would also require other members of the operational support unit to support those officers in a non-armed role. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[282] Yes ... and ... at the briefing, just tell us first of all what ... you said about the objective of the operation. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[283] The objective of the operation was to arrest ... Mr ... with the proviso that ... it was to be done ... with the safety of the public to be paramount ... and that the safety of the police officers and Mr was also to be considered. [284] ... But the main objective ... was to search the house to see if Mr was there. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[285] On on a briefing for an operation do you have to give further ... recommendation to advise on ... instructions about the use of guns or is that part and parcel of [...] training? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[286] No er at er briefing, officers are again reminded of their responsibilities within the law, as to reasonable force ... and even when the officer issuing firearms, which is not myself, er ... an officer of inspector rank issues the firearms, er arms to the individual officers, they are again reminded of their responsibilities within the criminal law. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[287] Were the officers to be equipped with radios? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[288] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[289] And would the radios be used ... once they were in the flat? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[290] That would be a decision of the officer in charge of the actual operation ... erm that was actually going into the flat but it was normal practice that radios would be switched off. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[291] And who was, who was the officer who would lead them into the flat? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[292] The officer erm ... lead them into the flat was ... Sergeant . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[293] Sergeant? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[294] [spelling] [] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[295] Have you ... ever worked with Sergeant before [...] ? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[296] Yes I have. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[297] Do you have confidence in him to conduct this operation? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[298] Yes I did. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[299] What was the decision as to how you would physically enter the flat? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[300] The police force ... at that time were in possession of what is known as an automatic door opener. [301] ... This piece of er equipment was er purchased some ... short time before in order that ... er we could enter, heavily secured doors er with a minimum amount of noise in order to ... er ... gain entry to premises where ... there was a possible armed incident taking place, or a possible hostage situation. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[302] Do we understand from that that ... you wish to gain entry without alerting the occupants? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[303] That is the intention yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[304] And ... [...] does that have a bearing on the time that you conduct such operations? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[305] It is a medical fact that ... the body is at its lowest ebb between three and six in the morning ... and the ability to ... react, the ability to ... think when one is being woken up in the early hours of the morning erm are a consideration that we take into account when we have to mount an operation inside a premises. [306] Er, if the person er is sitting watching the television ... and er has been awake for several hours then we are at a disadvantage. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[307] In addition to the firearms that tell us about and the door opener, was any other equipment issued to the officers? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[308] Yes the officers ... [cough] excuse me, the officers would be issued with a ballistic shield, this is a piece of equipment that ... is erm ... bullet proof to certain weapons and enables officers to er enter rooms er through doorways safely, even if shots are fired towards them from inside the room. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[309] And could you just briefly describe ... the er ... the dimensions and the look of that? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[310] It's about six feet in height and just about shoulder width, er it's coloured black and it has a bullet proof glass window of about six inches by four inches which enables the er ... officer behind the shield to manoeuvre it in the correct position. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[311] Do firearms officers have any training in first aid? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[312] Yes all firearms officers are trained first aiders ... and er carry St. Johns ambulance certificates. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[313] Is there anything about the preparation of this ... operation that caused you to dissatisfaction? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[314] No, none at all. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[315] After you conducted the briefing, where did you go? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[316] I went with er Superintendent to ... er where we positioned ourselves in a control vehicle and er ... I remained there until I heard from the firearms team inside the house that all occupants of the house had been found and were secured. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[317] Mr it's been suggested ... from my plaintiff ... that it took [...] ten to fifteen minutes to enter and secure the flat by the firearms officers. [318] Do you have any observation on that time scale? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[319] I would say ... from the point where I was told on the radio that the officers were entering the premises to ... the point where I was told everybody was secured, could not be more than four five minutes. [320] ... That was my recollection. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[321] Mr thank you very much if you wait there [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[322] Yes it only took four or five minutes until you were told the occupants were secure but then it [...] er everybody waited for the C I D to arrive. [323] Do you, do you know how long that took? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[324] C I D were actually backed in the building. [325] They weren't in the actual flat at that time er their role was to er ... prevent members of the public whilst the ... armed officers were at the scene erm from entering the corridors at either end of the block of flats. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[326] Did you go to the flat with er ... I do apologise Mr when he went [...] ? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[327] I did, I did go to the er the flat shortly after Mr . [328] I didn't go inside the premises, I just er went there to remove er the er automatic door opener. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[329] And how long had elapsed between the armed officers going in and Mr ... leaving [...] flats? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[330] No no more than five minutes I would say. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[331] So that was almost instan instantaneous with the message? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[332] Yes er erm ... my instructions ... are that all persons are accounted for in the premises and er once they've been accounted for er then it was safe for other officers, i.e the C I D or Superintendent to go to that yes ... and they would not have been allowed in had I not received instructions that the house was secure and all persons accounted for. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[333] Just briefly ... as I asked Mr were you saying harbouring situation, or are you saying hostage situation or are you saying neither? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[334] They were ... considered, both of them considered, both of them considered ... erm but it is my recollection that erm ... [...] been the inference that Mr had made the telephone calls himself. [335] That might have been an inference, I don't, it seems, it was there it was it was said by somebody er as a matter of course or whatever and it might well have been that ... erm ... certainly it would have been mentioned at the briefing that there was er a woman in the house, Mrs possibly ... and the likelihood of children, er was possibly also mentioned but there was no definite intelligence as to er ... the having any children. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[336] Yes, but you'd been to the flat at about ten thirty in the evening before ... was there anything you heard ... or seen at the flat to indicate it might be a hostage situation? |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[337] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[338] The only other relates to that visit to the flat. [339] ... It wasn't suggested to Mr when he gave evidence that there was another man at the flat that night, I am told that if it had been his answer would have been an unequivocal no. [340] Isn't it possible that you mistook ... the two or possibly three voices you heard, for in fact Mr and Mrs and [...] . |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[341] There is that possibility but as ... I was aware . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[342] [...] believed to the T V. |
| Isles (PS48B) |
[343] No there was def there were definitely er ... er voices that were er ... there and there, not erm voices from the television. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[344] My Lord I have no re-examination. [345] Does your Lordship have any questions? |
| Drake (PS489) |
[346] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[347] Well [...] convenient time to take lunch. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[348] Yes ... members of the jury we will resume at ... two o'clock, erm because I have other duties later on this afternoon we'll have to finish at four o'clock today, it may help you to know that, it may help council to know that as well. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[349] My Lord I call ... Sergeant . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[350] Just erm before you do and so that we can all follow where we're getting to ... erm what witnesses are you going to call? [351] Then we know, we shall know how we're getting on. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[352] My Lord yes, er there's just, we're now dealing with the ... officers that went into the flat and conducted the operation [...] and then there's one W P C who comes after that to give some evidence but then that's it [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[353] I see so we've got the five officers who went into the flat now coming one after the other |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[354] My Lord yes . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[355] plus the W P C. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[356] My Lord yes, if I could there was a fifth officer that erm had authorised nothing and wasn't [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[357] No it's alright I I just thought it helps me and the jury to know what ... where we are in the evidence. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[358] Good. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[359] Take the book. |
| John (PS48C) |
[360] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[361] I swear by Almighty God. |
| John (PS48C) |
[362] I swear by Almighty God. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[363] That the evidence I shall give. |
| John (PS48C) |
[364] That the evidence I shall give. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[365] Shall be the truth. |
| John (PS48C) |
[366] Shall be the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[367] The whole truth. |
| John (PS48C) |
[368] The whole truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[369] And nothing but the truth. |
| John (PS48C) |
[370] And nothing but the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[371] Now could you give your current name, rank and station? |
| John (PS48C) |
[372] Sure er ... it's John currently a police sergeant stationed at . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[373] And in December of nineteen eighty eight, what was your rank in your job? |
| John (PS48C) |
[374] Er in December nineteen eighty eight er I was a police constable, I was stationed at ... I was er a firearms instructor in the operations department and also a tactical advisor. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[375] And when did you ... first become a firearms officer? |
| John (PS48C) |
[376] Er I first commenced training er as a firearms officer in nineteen eighty. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[377] And when did you become a tactical advisor? |
| John (PS48C) |
[378] In nineteen eighty eight, having er attended all of the national courses. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[379] Now if you, if there's a firearms officer a full time job or are there other ... ordinary police duties as well as. |
| John (PS48C) |
[380] At the time er when I was a firearms instructor er that was ... the job that I did every day I went to work either firearms training or firearms operations. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[381] And er ... Mr have you ever had to shoot a suspect? |
| John (PS48C) |
[382] No I haven't, no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[383] Now were you involved in an operation to enter and search the flat known as in December of eighty eight? |
| John (PS48C) |
[384] Yes that is correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[385] And were your involvement the decision to carry out the search or was your involvement the operational search? |
| John (PS48C) |
[386] It was the actual operation ... that I was involved in. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[387] And when did you first become involved in the operation? |
| John (PS48C) |
[388] I would have gone to police headquarters that morning around about four A M and er from there onwards to where the briefing was. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[389] [...] Sergeant carried out the briefing. |
| John (PS48C) |
[390] He did yes, that's correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[391] And were you issued with a weapon? |
| John (PS48C) |
[392] Yes I was. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[393] A and what sort of weapon? |
| John (PS48C) |
[394] A revolver ... Smith and Weston revolver. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[395] Are you familiar with that sort of gun? |
| John (PS48C) |
[396] Yes I am. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[397] And ordinarily how would you carry that gun about your person? |
| John (PS48C) |
[398] Prior to and immediately after the operation, the weapon would be holstered ... erm and secured by means of a strap across ... er the hammer of the weapon. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[399] Is there any way the gun could then go off in that [...] ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[400] No not at all no it's a safety feature. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[401] What was your role to be in this operation? |
| John (PS48C) |
[402] Technically I was er the team leader of the operation er and therefore in charge of the actual execution. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[403] Have you been a team leader before? |
| John (PS48C) |
[404] Yes I have yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[405] Are there any rules about pointing guns, loaded guns at people? |
| John (PS48C) |
[406] Yes there are certain ... considerations that obviously we take er ... we take into effect. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[407] And what are they? |
| John (PS48C) |
[408] Well ... obviously the fact that we er ... are carrying a firearm and that firearm is loaded erm has to be borne in mind at all times. [409] Without over dramatising the fact ... that firearm, coupled with myself could easily kill somebody so we have to make sure that every single time we draw the weapon er there is a need, there is a justification for it er and as soon as that need and justification stops, so would we put the weapon away. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[410] Do er firearms officers carry any special firearms card? |
| John (PS48C) |
[411] Yes we do, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[412] Do you have the card with you? |
| John (PS48C) |
[413] Yes I have. [414] ... The card that we're issued with. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[415] Mr we will show the jury in ... in just a moment but could you just tell us first of all what the card says, in general terms. |
| John (PS48C) |
[416] Yes sure, the card itself er is authorisation that is signed by er an officer of at least the rank of Assistant Chief Constable and er it's a firearms authorisation that enables us or as an individual, ... to be issued with a firearm that is named on this card, er for that particular type of weapon ... er if if we go to a firearms operation. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[417] And is there anything else on the er the rear of the card? |
| John (PS48C) |
[418] Yes sure, on the rear ... er if I could read it out. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[419] Certainly. |
| John (PS48C) |
[420] [reading] Please read the notes below carefully. [421] The law section three of the criminal law act nineteen sixty seven ... reads ... a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances ... in the prevention of crime ... or in effecting or assisting ... in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. [] [422] And then it goes on a strict reminder. [423] [reading] A firearm is to be used only as a last resort. [424] Other methods must have been tried and failed, or must because of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried. [425] For example. [426] ... A firearm may be used when it is apparent that the police cannot achieve their lawful purpose of preventing loss or further loss of life by any other means. [427] Wherever practicable an oral warning is to be used before a firearm is used. [428] And lastly we [...] to individual responsibility. [429] The responsibility for the use of the firearm is an individual decision, which may have to be justified in legal proceedings. [430] Remember the law and remember your training. [] |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[431] Yes and er Mr do ... firearms officers carry such a document all the time? |
| John (PS48C) |
[432] Yes yes we do yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[433] Lord I wonder whether the jury could er ... look at that or whether it would be more convenient for them to look at it later. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[434] They can look at it now ... get it out of the way. [435] Er I I'm ... not quite sure of the relevance of this. [436] It shows that this officer was authorised to carry a gun and erm that's not in dispute. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[437] My Lord [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[438] It it it's not the sort of thing when the gas man calls that ... the man is ... being having a gun pointed at him he says wait a minute can I see your card please. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[439] No my Lord the [...] idea was simply to ... show the jury that the police are [...] a reminder. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[440] Oh yes, right please. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[441] Yes ... well there we are. [442] Have have a look at it members of the jury it's part of the ... part of the history as it were. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[443] Mr [...] again about guns, what is the ... your general policy on [...] and dealing with guns in the presence of children? |
| John (PS48C) |
[444] Well ... we would never point a firearm at a child, erm there would be no cause to, no need to. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[445] And in ... your mind ... at the time, Mr , what was the object of the operation? |
| John (PS48C) |
[446] The ... the object of the operation really was to ... to obviously apprehend er because at that time we believed that he was er a danger to the public and other people. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[447] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [whispering] [...] [] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[448] Yes ... does anyone want to saying anything about the card? |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[449] Er yes sir ... [...] it does not seem to have a photograph of the officer who [...] it just has his name. [450] I was just wondering ... should it not have a photograph? |
| Drake (PS489) |
[451] Yes certainly. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| Drake (PS489) |
[452] No certainly no ... I ... well what about it? |
| John (PS48C) |
[453] Er yes my Lord, er in conjunction with the card er we have a warrant card which is individually issued to er a respective officer with his name, his rank er and also a photograph. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[454] Now that's the one the public can and ought to ask to see. |
| John (PS48C) |
[455] That that's correct yes. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[456] When you knock at the door at night, you make sure [...] a policeman and not something else. |
| John (PS48C) |
[457] That is correct my Lord yes, I have that [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[458] So [...] got a special pass because you're a firearms officer which is essentially deals with your authorisation to have a gun and reminds you of the law. |
| John (PS48C) |
[459] That is correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[460] But also because you're a police officer as well, you've got the usual warrant card. |
| John (PS48C) |
[461] That that's correct yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[462] It carries your photograph. |
| John (PS48C) |
[463] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[464] And it's the sort of the card the jury may well have seen on television ... in dramas [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[465] Well er er as I observe the ... authorisation card is of general interest to us but it's not the sort of thing you're going to produce to a member of the public. |
| John (PS48C) |
[466] No it's certainly not my Lord no. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[467] It's really a record simply that you have been given the authority. |
| John (PS48C) |
[468] That is correct my Lord yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[469] And it, would it be fair to say ... Mr that it is a form of control within the police force? |
| John (PS48C) |
[470] Of course yes. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[471] And when you actually go and ... draw the arms do you produce your card then? |
| John (PS48C) |
[472] Yes I do my Lord yes. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[473] Yes I see ... well thank you. |
| John (PS48C) |
[474] Thanks very much. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[475] Mr in due course did you ... go to the flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[476] I did indeed yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[477] And can you tell ... the jury exactly what time did you arrive at the flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[478] We would ari have arrived at the block of flats prior to six o'clock but not many minutes prior to and then from there er we made our way up to that floor by the stairs as opposed to the lift. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[479] And ... how many officers were to go into the flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[480] Six of us in total. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[481] And had you decided in advance where you would go ... once you got in? |
| John (PS48C) |
[482] Yes we had, yes. [483] That was part of the briefing. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[484] And who took that decision? |
| John (PS48C) |
[485] The decision to ... exactly where we were going ... and was taken, a joint decision by Sergeant and myself. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[486] A and before we go into what happened once got in the flat, just tell us now who was to go where in the first instance. |
| John (PS48C) |
[487] The ... the officers involved in the actual armed execution o of the ... the operation. [488] P C would have been the first man into the flat and he was carrying the [...] shield that has been mentioned earlier. [489] The second person into the flat and immediately very, very close behind to P C was myself ... and the third person into the flat would have been ... P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[490] Was he carrying a shield? |
| John (PS48C) |
[491] He was carrying a shield as well. [492] ... The fourth person would have been P C ... The fifth person P C ... and the last person forming part of the firearms team er would have been P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[493] Er and [...] put us out of our [...] er how many ballistic shields did you take into that flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[494] Into the flat itself, two. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[495] Are you sure you didn't take three or four or five? |
| John (PS48C) |
[496] I have to say that I know for definite that the force at that time only possessed two shields, er we kept one shield in the South of the county at and one shield North of the county and and hence that is why I went to the headquarters in the morning. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[497] And again before we come on to the entry. [498] I'd like to ask you what you were wearing? |
| John (PS48C) |
[499] Every single officer involved in that operation from an armed point of view, er was wearing a beret ... with a silver badge on the front of the black beret. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[500] Would you have, do you have a beret like that . |
| John (PS48C) |
[501] I do . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[502] Could you please get [...] . |
| John (PS48C) |
[503] Sure. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) | [...] |
| John (PS48C) |
[504] Right, this is my er the original beret but this is a beret that every single officer would have been wearing on his head ... and then ... er in relation to the actual uniform that the officer would be wearing er ... we wear jumpsuits. [505] They're all identical, all the same and hence ... erm that'd be the the kit we were wearing there. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[506] Thank you. |
| John (PS48C) |
[507] And then lastly, over the top of that jumpsuit er we would wear our ballistic armour ... and this is identical to the armour that we would have worn that day. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[508] Erm ... my Lo my Lord again, if the jury wish to [...] in due course. [509] ... Mr how did you gain entry to the flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[510] A er one of the officers er used a door opener which is |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[511] Which officer was that? |
| John (PS48C) |
[512] Er P C ... er used the door opener which is a hydraulic system er it's a jack type principal that when activated er forces the frame apart at the side but at the same time ... should exert pressure onto the door and then er knock should knock it in very quickly. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[513] And w would that be the [...] talk about the door but once you ... had the door off. |
| John (PS48C) |
[514] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[515] Who went into the flat first? |
| Drake (PS489) |
[516] Well you say it should open it very quickly, what happened on this occasion? |
| John (PS48C) |
[517] Er my Lord I'm afraid it didn't. [518] Erm. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[519] Can you tell [...] . |
| Drake (PS489) |
[520] It was a good it was a good question in that case. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[521] Yes tell the jury then [...] tell the jury what happened with the ... the door opener. |
| John (PS48C) |
[522] Er yes, the door opener in fact was was put on wrongly ... erm by unfortunately P C and er as the pressure started to exert outwards erm it then found that there was no resistance and consequently all the pressure was being put outwards ... er and as such then the machine started to to make a noise erm which then we had to switch it off, turn it round, back on again and eventually gained access. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[523] Mr how much time ... did you lose by having to switch the machine round? |
| John (PS48C) |
[524] Whilst at the time, it it seemed an eternity, it was literally seconds, er very, very quickly because we were aware of the noise ... that at that time in the morning seemed to be er ... echoing everywhere. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[525] And do you erm ... thought it at least very possible that there was someone with a gun the other side of the door. |
| John (PS48C) |
[526] That is correct my Lord, definitely. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[527] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[528] Just before I deal with how you get in ... just tell the jury [...] what is your a approach in terms of the timing of the events. [529] Once you'd got access, what do you do? |
| John (PS48C) |
[530] We have to work ... as quickly and as safely as we possibly can ... and we can't afford to spend five minutes er searching a house, let alone a flat. [531] We have to get in as quickly ... and as quietly a we possibly can and then once in ... try and secure the place from any possible threat that might be in there. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[532] Let's take it from the point where you have essentially broke the door down. [533] Who went in first? |
| John (PS48C) |
[534] P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[535] He's with the shield. |
| John (PS48C) |
[536] Yes that's correct yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[537] And who followed him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[538] I did |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[539] And what was your position in relation to him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[540] Er, ... immediately at very, very close behind him. [541] To such a degree that I had hold of ... P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[542] And it, I'm sure the jury would get the [...] it's rather an obvious question but [...] why is that? |
| John (PS48C) |
[543] That's because hopefully the ballistic shield will give us a certain amount of er bullet proof cover and if I can get as close behind that shield er as I possibly can it it's got to be safer from my point of view and from P C point of view. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[544] Where did P C and you go? |
| John (PS48C) |
[545] We moved er ... straight along the corridor to the rear main bedroom. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[546] Now to what extent did you know the layout inside? |
| John (PS48C) |
[547] My Lord at the briefing that we attended er there was a ... sketch plan drawn up on the er the dry wipe board ... in the briefing room. [548] Not to the degree of er detail that is on the map, but a rough ... idea of what we be encountering. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[549] [...] which room you were aiming for. |
| John (PS48C) |
[550] Yes definitely yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[551] I appreciate Mr it's now five years ago but ... how long did it take from ... when the door went down to you getting to the main bedroom? |
| John (PS48C) |
[552] Seconds, two or three seconds. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[553] A and then what ... did either you or P C do? |
| John (PS48C) |
[554] Er, P C opened the ... bedroom door ... he ... I can't recall which way the door opened, whether it ... was to the left or to the right, but er P C knocked the door back ... erm flat against the wall. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[555] Just pau pause a moment it ... why did he do that? |
| John (PS48C) |
[556] Er it's something that we're trained in to ensure that there is nobody hiding behind the door. [557] If we only opened a door partly er there is room for somebody to hide behind it and then when we go into the room then we would encounter problems. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[558] He slammed the door open. |
| John (PS48C) |
[559] That is correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[560] And ... how far did he go into the room at all? |
| John (PS48C) |
[561] To begin with ... there was a pause at the door, but a pause of perhaps ... I don't know, one or two seconds at the most. [562] Just to quickly assess that we weren't going forward to ... erm a horrible situation where er one of us or somebody else is going to be injured, so there would have been a very, very quick check to see who or what was in the room. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[563] And ha by this time had you or P C said anything? |
| John (PS48C) |
[564] No, not until the ... until we opened the door, gave that quick check and then I saw a figure or figures in the bed. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[565] Er and when you saw the figure or figures ... did you say anything then? |
| John (PS48C) |
[566] Yes I did, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[567] What did you say? |
| John (PS48C) |
[568] I said armed police, put your hands up. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[569] A and did you say it in the voice you've just used now to me? |
| John (PS48C) |
[570] No er certainly not er ... I shouted my Lord. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[571] Did you shout very loud? |
| John (PS48C) |
[572] Very loud, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[573] A and again, [...] but why did you shout armed police, was there any particular reason for using those [...] ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[574] Well firstly we need to ... it it's part of our training. [575] Every single operation we go on whether we are in uniform or in plain clothes er and we are carrying a firearm, we need to identify ourselves as police officers. [576] Because if we don't we then run the risk of being injured ourselves ... erm somebody alleging that they didn't realise they were police officers and therefore ... shot at us because they thought we were invading their territory or something. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[577] Did you upset him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[578] Definitely yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[579] Mr is it possible that in fact ... the [...] on this occasion you forgot to shout armed police? |
| John (PS48C) |
[580] No I know that is definitely not the case. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[581] As you shouted armed police where were your hands? |
| John (PS48C) |
[582] Certainly er ... by then ... perhaps I forgot to mention as we went through the front door my weapon was already out of the holster and by the time we'd got the bedroom door my weapon would already have been under er my eye level, hence literally aiming the weapon and from there the gun was out, my arm was out, whether I still had hold of P C I I can't recall. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[583] You shouted armed police and was there any ... immediate response. |
| John (PS48C) |
[584] Yes there was yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[585] And what was that response? |
| John (PS48C) |
[586] Er ... the, the man in the bed put his hands up. [587] ... Er, the woman put her hands up as well and then we started to move away from the door, er across the room er to avoid being stuck as a silhouette in the doorway. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[588] Mr what was the, what was the lighting conditions when you shouted armed police? |
| John (PS48C) |
[589] There were no lights on ... er in the the bedroom itself. [590] Certainly not as bright as here, er ... sufficient light for me to be able to see that there were people in there and to differentiate between a man and a woman but ... er at that time not enough to to be able to clearly define anybody. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[591] Did you try to switch the light on? |
| John (PS48C) |
[592] I did yes ... yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[593] Were you successful? |
| John (PS48C) |
[594] To begin with ... er I couldn't find the light switch because my, my gaze was directed er at the people in the bed but then er I asked the man in the bed, where was the light switch and er he helped me back towards the area where the switch was and we eventually succeeded in getting the light on. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[595] By the time the light was on, where was the man that had been in the bed? |
| John (PS48C) |
[596] He was still in the bed with his hands up. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[597] When you got the light on what did you do or say? |
| John (PS48C) |
[598] The exact words, er I can't recall but er I talked the man out of the bed, still with his hands up ... and he took a few steps away from the bed. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[599] Pause there. [600] ... Did the man have ... any pyjamas on? |
| John (PS48C) |
[601] No he didn't no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[602] Did he have anything on? |
| John (PS48C) |
[603] No he didn't. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[604] As you [...] your way talked him out of the bed, did he talk to you? |
| John (PS48C) |
[605] He did, but exactly what was said I I can't recall I ... I was just concerned at that time to ... er to get the man safely down onto the floor and secure him. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[606] W w were you concerned to secure the lady in the bed? |
| John (PS48C) |
[607] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[608] So he got away from the bed, he had his hands up. [609] What did you say to him then, you were talking him down? |
| John (PS48C) |
[610] Yes, er he took a couple of steps away from the bed, er then I told him to lower himself down onto his knees and then eventually lower himself down onto his chest, down onto his front. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[611] Pause there a minute. [612] ... At that stage in the operation. [613] ... In addition to yourself, how many other officers were in the room? |
| John (PS48C) |
[614] Just myself and P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[615] Had the others still not not come into the room? |
| John (PS48C) |
[616] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[617] Are you [...] about that? |
| John (PS48C) |
[618] Absolutely no doubt, that that wasn't part of the plan. [619] It didn't happen because there was no need for anybody to come into the room. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[620] What did you then do? |
| John (PS48C) |
[621] Er, once the, the man was down on the floor ... er he placed his hands into the small of his back. [622] I told him that I was going to come forward er and handcuff him ... and then, then something along the lines of er not to move ... er and then once he was down on the floor, erm I holstered the weapon into my own holster. [623] Can I just say that's something that we don't normally do. [624] We would normally prefer to put er the individuals officers firearms ho ?id |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[625] You don't want him to grab your gun? |
| John (PS48C) |
[626] No ... but on this occasion we didn't have a spare holster to put the weapon into. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[627] You'd better explain why that is. |
| John (PS48C) |
[628] That was because P C firearm, his revolver was still in the holster because he was carrying the shield ... and it was only as er ... I started to move forward that P C ... er came up to the ... the doorway to cover me whilst I went forward. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[629] Did you call P C ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[630] Yes, yes I did. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[631] He came to cover you and what weapon was he carrying? |
| John (PS48C) |
[632] Er, he was carrying a shotgun and his revolver was ... in the holster, hence there there was no spare holster. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[633] You holstered your gun and then what did you do? |
| John (PS48C) |
[634] I then went forward to the man on the floor er, handcuffed him and stepped back. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[635] Did he say anything to you as you went up to him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[636] He did but once again I I can't recall exactly what was said. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[637] Did you say anything to him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[638] Er yes, erm ... I told him to calm down because he was quite excitable and ... to just stay there and somebody would explain what it was all about. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[639] Did you [...] arrest ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[640] I did yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[641] Did you tell him you were arresting him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[642] Yes I did, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[643] When did you arrest him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[644] In the meantime, as I recall, er ... I ... I asked him who he was and I asked his wife who he was because he had asked what we were doing in his house ... and when he said his house, I thought then for the first time that perhaps this wasn't who er ... we had on the floor. [645] But ... I have to say that at that time I still didn't know, I had a good idea, ... that it wasn't the man we were looking for but therefore he was still arrested and he was arrested on sus well for harbouring an escapee. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[646] I i if you can remember, can you tell us the words you used throughout the [...] or the gist of the words? |
| John (PS48C) |
[647] The gist of the words were, you're under arrest for harbouring an escapee ... and he replied along the lines of you've gotta be joking mate. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[648] Was he still naked? |
| John (PS48C) |
[649] Yes ... whether he was naked at the time of the arrest or ... or just er, what, what I'm getting at is er that I put some trousers on Mr . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[650] Was that after you took the handcuffs on or before? |
| John (PS48C) |
[651] Yes after the handcuffs were put on, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[652] And again [...] why did you put trousers on him? |
| John (PS48C) |
[653] Well, ... Mr er er Mr er wife was in the room, there was a child in the room, erm ... which at the time I didn't even realise there were two children but ... er there was one child in the room and er really for decency more than anything. [654] There seemed little point in ... er a wife and a child sitting looking at their ... husband/father er with no clothes on. [655] I mean it's. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[656] Did you have to assist to get his trouser on? |
| John (PS48C) |
[657] Yes, that's right yes. [658] ... He still stayed on the floor, he was still handcuffed. [659] But er we found a pair of jeans ... er and having made sure that the jeans were empty of anything, er we sort of shuffled himself into the jeans a he lay down and we pulled, I I pulled the jeans up. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[660] By the time you had arrested him or ... put his trousers on. [661] How many people were in the room? |
| John (PS48C) |
[662] There would still have been er P C with the shield and P C with the shotgun. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[663] Giving you cover? |
| John (PS48C) |
[664] That's right yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[665] Did you ... point the gun or shove a gun ... into the back of Mr head? |
| John (PS48C) |
[666] No, definitely no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[667] W why are you so certain? |
| John (PS48C) |
[668] Because the only time I approached the the man was when my ... revolver was the holster ... and the holster was done up. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[669] As a matter of police practice, firearms practice ... what would you say about a police officer who stuck the gun at any [...] at the back of someone's neck? |
| John (PS48C) |
[670] Well ... it's against all training that we receive, there is no need for it ... it is just something that we would not do. [671] Not only because of the risk and the safety factor er of the gun going off, because of er a movement by that person on the floor, but so there's no getting around it that, should a firearm be discharged against a solid object in as much as er the barrel is right up against an individual, and the trigger is pulled. [672] There's a very, very good chance that the person using a firearm will, will suffer injury because the barrel could well explode. [673] So that's something that we ... we're all aware of. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[674] Did you see P C ... shove a gun into the back of Mr head? |
| John (PS48C) |
[675] No I did not, no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[676] Did you see P C do that? |
| John (PS48C) |
[677] No certainly not. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[678] After you had arrested him and got his trousers on ... what did you do? |
| John (PS48C) |
[679] I then ... had a responsibility as the team leader ... to ensure that the rest of the house was secure ... and that none of the other units were having any problems. [680] I hadn't heard any shouting so therefore I didn't believe that anybody else was having any problems. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[681] Did you go anywhere? |
| John (PS48C) |
[682] I started to walk a way out of the main bedroom and I heard P C ... say words to the effect of get down ... and I turned round to see what was going on and the man was ... trying to roll over to get up ... or that's what I thought, erm not kicking or or fighting or anything but just ... to me it looked as though he was going to get up and I went back and with my hands just pushed down onto him and said stay there, it will all be explained er and then ... walked away. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[683] Did you then leave that room? |
| John (PS48C) |
[684] Sorry. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[685] Did you leave the room? |
| John (PS48C) |
[686] I did indeed yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[687] And who did you leave in the room? [...] which officers did you leave in? |
| John (PS48C) |
[688] Er P C and P C . |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[689] And where did you go? |
| John (PS48C) |
[690] Er, I then went back ... er back down the passageway ... er into the lounge, checked the kitchen ... checked that the rest of the firearms officers were ... were okay. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[691] Now when you went in ... you were carrying out a plan with you very close behind going down to the bedroom. |
| John (PS48C) |
[692] Yes my Lord yes. |
| Drake (PS489) |
[693] Er, what [...] was the plan about the others ... for all you knew who you believed was there, might have been somewhere else in the flat. |
| John (PS48C) |
[694] Yes my Lord er ... as soon as we went to the main bedroom which was the back bedroom ... at the same time as as that bedroom door opened, so the second team consisting of er ... P C P C would have gone into the second smaller bedroom and at the same time as we went in ... er P C and P C job er was to cover our backs in case of anybody in er the kitchen or the living area, the living room area. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[695] And after leaving the main bedroom did you ... learn that the rest of the flat was secured [...] ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[696] Yes I did, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[697] By secure what do you mean? |
| John (PS48C) |
[698] I mean that er ... all ... possibly threats had been secured by use of handcuffs ... and that there was no likelihood of anybody hiding er in the premises or certainly nobody in the premises with a firearm. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[699] And when you arrived at that conclusion, what did you do [...] ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[700] I then got straight onto the radio to Sergeant and Superintendent and informed them that the flat was secure ... er one person ... er arrested er and requested C I D and ... their presence. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[701] Now again I [...] but give us [...] as to the length of time that elapsed between ... flying the door [...] door breaker and you radioing [...] ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[702] Very few minutes, perhaps three or four minutes at the absolute outside. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[703] Was there anything about the way that you carried out the operation in the flat that caused you ... dissatisfaction? |
| John (PS48C) |
[704] It was a shame about the er the door opener not working correctly ... subsequently er ... I discovered the incident with the the other team going into the other bedroom and er a young girl being ... in the bed that was missed and erm. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[705] Just pause there what do think about that ... girl being tipped out of the bed? |
| John (PS48C) |
[706] Well, it was something that shouldn't have happened and it's very regrettable, without a doubt, very regrettable. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[707] Mr wait there there'll be some more questions. |
| John (PS48C) |
[708] Of course. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[709] Getting back to the briefing if you would Sergeant. [710] There's a plan, rough plan of the flat. |
| John (PS48C) |
[711] That's correct. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[712] And at that briefing who were you given to understand [...] in the flat? |
| John (PS48C) |
[713] I was given to believe that would have been in the flat ... also we thought that st was going to be in there ... possibly a wife and it wasn't said whether there were any children. [714] We didn't know whether there were going to be any children. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[715] When you say a wife, you mean Mrs there wasn't any suggestion that Lawrence had taken his own wife? |
| John (PS48C) |
[716] No, no not at all. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[717] You had a plan of the flat. |
| John (PS48C) |
[718] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[719] Looking at it ... there's one master bedroom. |
| John (PS48C) |
[720] That's correct yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[721] Who did you expect to be in the master bedroom of the three? |
| John (PS48C) |
[722] There was mention made that we thought, or somebody thought, was in that bedroom. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[723] Now what, pray, were the grounds for that. |
| John (PS48C) |
[724] I have to say I have no idea. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[725] Because you see all that we've heard is that gentlemen just before [...] Mr he listened at the door before [...] but of course the front door is nowhere near the master bedroom. [726] They couldn't have come from that. [727] ... But the best you can say that the jury [...] there was some information that be in the master bedroom ... you don't know where [...] . |
| John (PS48C) |
[728] I'm sorry I don't. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[729] I have to put it this way but there aren't any alternative. [730] Was there any by chance, any information that Mr wasn't only sharing his flat with Mr but was also sharing his wife with Mr ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[731] I hadn't heard that, no. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[732] Right. |
| John (PS48C) |
[733] Okay, yeah right. |
| Unknown speaker (JJWPSUNK) |
[734] So you can see what [...] you go into the master bedroom there's a man and a woman in bed, isn't it obvious in a second that it's not that it's Mr and Mrs ? |
| John (PS48C) |
[735] At that time no, no I'm afraid not. |