| PS48R | X | m | (Colin, age unknown, tutor) unspecified |
| JK2PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| JK2PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[1] [...] had her operation and that everything's going well, and I'm sure will take our best wishes to her, when er, he goes home after the meeting. [2] Well, this morning, er, you know all know Colin, there's er no need for me to spend a lot of time introducing him to you. [3] He's been here several times before, and er, we do look forward to having another interesting morning with you, and I understand that er, you're going to give us a musical morning, this morning, and er, [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[4] [...] sing to us. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[5] Not going to sing. [6] I promise not, well I might get carried away. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[7] Alright, well. [8] It's all over to you then, Colin. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[9] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[10] Welcome here. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[11] Erm, I'm going to er talk to you this morning, and invite comments this morning, about Anthems of the Nations. [12] It's erm, a hand-book study from last year's hand-book, and erm, the reason I picked it, I think is is two-fold. [13] First, the first reason, er is entirely coincidental. [14] I was approached in this room about erm, twelve months ago, by Francis and Tricia erm, to ask if I would make a programme out for their group. [15] The [...] gardeners group. [16] And I wrote down, that they were on a [...] doing Anthems of the Nations. [17] When I asked them about it later, they said, oh no, we have no intention of doing Anthems of the Nations, perhaps you would like to do it for us. [18] So I was landed, hoist with my own petard, if you like. [19] Landed with that topic. [20] Having discovered that, I was then, in April of last year, in France, in Strasbourg, Strasbourg is Leicester's twin city in France, and as I was wondering through near to the cathedral in Strasbourg, I found a book a book-shop, a second- hand book shop. [21] Thumbed through some papers that they have got, in front of the shop, and found one set of erm, papers from nineteen thirty-six concerned the French National Anthem, and I thought that was a second amazing coincidence, er, and so I had to buy myself that that set of papers for about a pound. [22] And it really was quite interesting. [23] So what I propose to do this morning, is to talk erm, based on the notes from the hand-book about Anthems of the Nation, but to spend probably more time, talking about the French National Anthem, than about any others, because I know a little bit about it, and I have discovered even more. [24] No prizes then, for guessing that that was the British National Anthem, erm, God Save the King as it was, or was it originally God Save the Queen, it was King, er when you grew up |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[25] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[26] And then, then the Queen. [27] Erm, and it was interesting that there was always a tendency to stand up, wasn't there. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[28] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[29] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[30] Because I think in the so called Good Old Days, you always did stand up when you heard the National Anthem played. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[31] And I remember one or two who used to sit do , keep seated, you know, just to |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[32] As a sign, yes, yes, as a protest. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[33] I don't know what it was. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[34] As a protest. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[35] Yes, as a protest against it. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[36] Oh, I didn't think of it, you know |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[37] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[38] You know when you when you, at the end of the film, you all done it, didn't you. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[39] Yes, yes. [40] There was a time when you couldn't go through a week, perhaps couldn't even going through a day, without hearing the British National Anthem somewhere. [41] The radio, television, the radio used to close down, the television used to close down, if if you were up late enough at night, with that with that National Anthem. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[42] And erm, the the radio was the same. [43] At the end of the film, or at the beginning, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[44] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[45] At the beginning. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[46] At the beginning. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[47] Yes, yes, yes, it used, mm, it us . [48] But there was a time when |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[49] You always, you always have it at the beginning or any er programme. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[50] Well, I think that started in the black-out, you know, because, we had to, if the sirens went, you know, we had to stop in the [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[51] Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. [52] so the |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[53] In the cinemas, I mean, it changed. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[54] It ch it changed, didn't it, there was the there was a great change, that meant that people no longer heard it at at the same time. [55] They heard it at the beginning rather than at the end. [56] It then gradually disappeared. [57] The only time you hear it now, is on sporting occasions, I should think. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[58] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[59] Yes, that's right. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[60] Perhaps before the Queen's Speech on |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[61] Don't forget the Command Performance. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[62] Yes, yeah, and Command Performances, and things like that. [63] Erm, I don't suppose anybody knows who wrote the Natio National Anthem. [64] Er, Rupert's scratching his head, he he thinks he knows. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[65] [...] before his time. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[66] No, it isn't. [67] It's not known with any degree of certainty, erm, there was some indication by someone writing at the end of the last century, that it was written by someone in the time of the Queen Elizabeth, hence, perhaps it was God Save The Queen. [68] A man by the name, would you believe of Doctor John Bull. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[69] Bull. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[70] Now whether that's true or not, I don't know. [71] The writer of the words was possibly Henry Carey, Henry Carey and he was an English poet and composer and he wrote various erm, bits of erm music, words. [72] He wrote farces, he wrote burlesques, he wrote songs, and sometimes he wrote accompanying music for things going on on the stage, and apparently he also wrote Sally In Our Alley. [73] So if the story is correct, the writer of the music for the National Anthem is the same as the composer of the music for Sally In Our Alley. [74] Erm, originally is was sung in Latin, in the time of the Stuarts, and then, an er, after the exile of James the Second, and English version appeared. [75] I don't suppose you've ever heard it sung in Latin, I certainly haven't. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[76] No. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[77] I wouldn't even know where to begin to find that that. [78] Erm, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[79] Probably sing it in the er, Catholic Church. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[80] Yes, they probably would sing it in Latin in the Catholic, they they certainly use erm, Latin, and of course the words have changed depending whether it's a King or a Queen on the s on on on the throne, and from, it's gone from God Save Our Lord The King, to God Save Our Gracious Queen, and that came in, of course, in the time of Victoria, and then had to be brought in again, er, at the time of erm, Queen Elizabeth. [81] And what about some of the others. [82] What what about Anthems in general. [83] They haven't always been National Anthems, it's a relatively new thing, erm, I've mentioned Elizabethan times, about four hundred years ago. [84] Er, it probably came into fashion in the, something like the eighteenth century. [85] Before the eighteenth century, there wasn't perhaps a National Anthem, there wasn't such much of a er, national feeling, and so there was very little need to have a National Anthem. [86] So we're talking about the seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, and it was very often known as a national song, and we had a national song, probably before any other country. [87] It wasn't known as a National Anthem, apparently until eighteen fifty-two. [88] So before that it was a National Song, and then it became a National Anthem, eighteen fifty-two, before your time, I should think, eighteen fifty-two. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[89] Yes just a little bit. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[90] Just a, just a little bit. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[91] Just a little bit. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[92] Just a little bit. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[93] Just a little bit. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[94] And then other countries started to get on the band-wagon and erm, find their own tunes. [95] Now the the tunes and the words vary enormously, and we shall have a chance to hear some of the tunes, certainly. [96] Sometimes the words are prayers. [97] Praying for the King, the Queen, or whatever they have. [98] Sometimes they express patriotic sentiments. [99] Sometimes they refer to battles, or revolts, or revolutions. [100] In the case of some of the, particularly recently made newly independent states, there is a whole idea of a revolutionary fervour. [101] This is perhaps, particularly true of some of the anthems for the, erm, the African States. [102] By contrast, some of the older countries, who got a history of calm and stability, they have Anthems which try to bring out the beauty of the country. [103] The natural beauty of the country. [104] And again, you will hear from the differing music, the way in which er the Anthems vary tremendously. [105] The variety, there is a great variety, also of musical styles. [106] God Save The King, or God Save the Queen, as it is now, is stately, rhythmic You could march to it, but I was corrected at a recent meeting, to say that people don't march to it, but you could if you wanted to. [107] So are marching songs, other have, er, others are very brisk marching songs. [108] You'd practically have to run to keep up with with some of them. [109] And some of the South American ones are rather more like opera, than National Anthems, erm, and of course, sometimes you come across er tunes, which are I suppose, Anthems. [110] Hardly National Anthems, because if you think of the Red Flag, which is the Communist Anthem, it's not National, because it spreads throughout the whole of the world, for those people who are erm, red incline, Communist incline, and if you think of Europe, whatever you think of Europe, there is a European Anthem. [111] You can't call it a National Anthem, because it covers the the twelve or more states of the European Union, as it is now, and do you know what that is, the the Anthem for the European Union. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[112] No. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[113] It's Beethoven's Ode to Joy, the the last movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, erm, [singing] you'd know the tune, you'd recognise it, particularly if you had a better singer than me on as a accompaniment. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[114] Encore. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[115] But that's erm, thank you, thank you. [116] Erm, that was, erm, that was also, that that that is the Anthem for the European Union, as it's now called. [117] Erm, and not only do they have the red flag, there is the, erm, the Internationale for the the Communist Movement as well, and that apparently erm, was written by French workers in the nineteenth century, and it was used in Russia until nineteen forty-four. [118] So we have National Anthems, and those are the ones we're gonna concentrate on. [119] But there are sometimes, erm, Anthems that are, not just for one Nation, but for lots of Nations. [120] We've already mentioned that the British National Anthem was played a lot at one time. [121] This was, I suppose, the case, particularly during the war, the Second World War, er, where it was used to promote a National feeling. [122] And the , as I say, it must have been difficult to go through a day, between nineteen thirty-nine, and nineteen forty-five without hearing the National Anthem somewhere, somehow. [123] Er, nowadays, it's very rarely heard. [124] Erm, I can't remember when I last heard the British National Anthem, apart from the little excerpt I played just now. [125] When did you last hear the ... |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[126] Queen's Speech. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[127] Birthday, Queen's Speech on Christmas Day, and er, it usually is the morning, isn't it, in the morning of the, er,Prin the Duke of Edinburgh's birthday, the Queen's birthday. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[128] [...] in June. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[129] Yes, in June. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[130] And sometimes on the Queen Mother's Day. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[131] And on the Queen, on the on the Queen Mother's Birthday, yes, yes. [132] You wouldn't hear it if you went to Australia, would you, because they're trying to do away with that. [133] [playing excerpt of music] Quite typical at the end, isn't it. [singing] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[134] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[135] Any idea where that on one is from. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[136] Luxembourg |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[137] Not far away, Belgium, actually, Belgium. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[138] That's it, of . |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[139] Yes, yes, it's Belgium, and you you may have heard again during sporting events, football matches, or or whatever it is. [140] Erm, written about a hundred and fifty years ago, during a struggle when Belgium was trying to regain it's er, it's independence from Holland. [141] Er, and it's sung in two languages, either in French, or in Flemish, because they speak them both over there. [142] Erm, and the the verse, goes something this. [143] Oh, noble Belgium, Well beloved Mother, to you our Hearts and Hands we give, to you our life lie, dedicating, together swearing you shall live, so again, it's a very patriotic feeling. [144] Erm, trying to engender that feeling in in the people who listen to it. [145] [playing music] Any, oh, got th the beginning of the next one, any idea on that one? |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[146] It's not the Olympic one, is it. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[147] No, it's not, but it's Canada. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[148] Oh. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[149] It's Canada, and you can almost hear, [singing] O Canada [] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[150] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[151] If you if you happen to know where it fits it. [152] You can almost hear that one. [153] Erm, and has, we haven't got anybody here who has relatives living in Canada, erm, but once or twice I found that people recognised that because, they've been to Canada, visit relatives and they they they they therefore know and they they've heard. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[154] I I I I thought I knew it, but I couldn't make out where I'd heard it. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[155] Couldn't make, yes , yeah, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[156] It's the Canadian one, the Canadian one. [157] This is a long long way away. [158] [music] That in fact is the Chinese National Anthem. [159] I think we have to remember that that that these Anthems are all played by the same military band, and therefore they're played in a western style. [160] Perhaps if you heard it in different circumstances,su , you know, surrounded by Chinese people, then maybe you would begin to recognise it. [161] But erm, it's called the March of the Slaves, and it calls upon people, Arise you who Refuse to be Slaves. [162] There you are Rupert, right up your streets, isn't it. [163] You who refuse to be to be slaves. [164] This is. [165] The next one is a rather different one in style, not attempting to be so nationalistic, chauvinistic. [166] Not attempting to arouse er, peoples nationalistic feelings, but really looking at the country. [167] They will be standing up for quite a long time. [168] That's actually in two parts, as you heard, and the first part is very much trying to paint a picture, I think, trying to show how beautiful the country is, and we don't, I haven't told you yet which country it is. [169] And the second one is just that little bit more lively, try to arouse people. [170] Storms must pass, Sun will shine, Slovaks shall waken. [171] So it, it was, I suppose we have to say in the past tense, it was, the National Anthem of Czechoslovakia. [172] Now that they've split into two parts, erm, I don't know which one that belongs to. [173] Presumably the Slovakian parts, since it, it urges the Slovaks to awaken. [174] The next one, a little bit further north, this time, and it's the Danish National Anthem, and it says, something like, King Kristian Stood Beside the Loch He Masked in Mist and Smoke. [175] So that one really is telling a story, commemorating something in Danish history, when they were fighting for their for their freedom. [176] Dates probably from the eighteenth century, and apparently the Danes also used the music to our National Anthem at one stage. [177] So our National Anthem has been about a bit, particularly when you think that it came, probably came from, or was used in, erm a piece of music simply by Haydn. [178] So our National Anthem is not ours alone, it's been borrowed, stolen, used by a number of other people. [179] This is the next one, and you'll probably recognise this one. [180] [music] Any prizes for that one? |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[181] Marseillaise. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[182] That was the Marseillaise. [183] That's right, yes. [184] That's the French National Anthem. [185] Er,an and as I say, that was that was one of the reasons |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[186] Mm. [187] French National Anthem. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[188] why I very much decided, I would er, investigate the whole business of National Anthems, because erm, that supposedly, was written in Strasbourg, not in Paris |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[189] Oh. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[190] where you might think in the centre of France. [191] Erm, and it wasn't written in Marseilles, although the Marsei , the word Marseillaise, might suggest it was written in Marseilles. [192] Erm, it was called the Marseillaise, erm, because the volunteers from Marseilles came up from the south, and entered Paris and they were singing, erm, this one. [193] Anybody know the name of the person who wrote words and music according to the story, according to the legend, of the Marseillaise. [194] It's a man called Claude Joseph, was his christian name, Rouget de Lisle, Rouget de Lisle, probably never heard of him. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[195] But er, but it it it the the if you look on the music, then you nearly always see his name, Rouget de Lisle. [196] But he, that's his surname really. [197] He was born in seventeen sixty, in the middle of France, really, erm, and he came from quite a large family. [198] They had seven children in all, did his his family, and the the popular expression at the time was that their their family didn't grow vegetables, they grew children. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[199] Quite a successful family. [200] One of his brothers went into the Navy and became very successful and very high up in maritime administration, another went into the Army, and became a General. [201] He himself went into the Army, and erm, he was, he was born in a in a little village, and an article in the newspaper that I acquired in Strasbourg, said that he was born in this little village Lom le Soniere his was born to life, but in Strasbourg, where he wrote the National Anthem, he was born to immortality. [202] So his name stays forever in in in French people's minds. [203] He went through military school and he decided that at point that he would acquired an extra name. [204] So he was born de Lisle, and it was at the point that he was in military school that he added the Rouget, you know, like having a double barrelled name, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[205] in in our in our erm ... country, the same was there, he tacked on this name, because he thought it would sound better for an army officer to have a name like Rouget de Lisle, instead of just de Lisle. [206] I think it was his grandfather's name that he'd er, he'd acquired at at that at that time. [207] He moved around France quite a lot, and not only was he a soldier, but he was writing comic operas and operas, and musicals and so on, and some of his work was pro produced and performed at the Opera Comic, in in France. [208] He was a tall, red-haired man, according to the descriptions he had one shoulder higher than the other, but that didn't seem to prevent him being attractive to women. [209] And we'll come back to that lat per perhaps it doesn't matter if you've got one shoulder higher, higher than the other. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[210] [cough] Sorry about that. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[211] Wh when he went into erm, when he went into Strasbourg with the garrison, he was very well received, because he was an officer, he was a gentleman, he was a musician, he was a composer, and he became very friendly with the Mayor of Strasbourg, whose name was Dietrich a very German sounding name, but don't forget that Strasbourg is very near to the German border. [212] The Mayor of Strasbourg, this man Dietrich, Baron, Dietrich, used to do a lot of entertaining, and very often erm, Rouget de Lisle would be invited to join the company. [213] Also present, very often, was the choir master of Strasbourg cathedral, whose name was Ignas Plielle so you had a number of musicians, and it was quite nice, because the wife of Baron Dietrich, was also interested in in music. [214] War was declared on Prussia and Austria on the twentieth of April, in seventeen ninety-two. [215] I bet you all knew that, didn't you. [216] twentieth of April, seventeen ninety-two, France declared war on Prussia and Austria. [217] It took four or five days for that news to reach Strasbourg. [218] Sign of the times, isn't it. [219] Two hundred years ago it took five days for news to get from Paris to Strasbourg. [220] Now it's done in less than a second. [221] Things have changed enormously, but it's, so it took sometime for them to get to know that they, the French were at war with, the Prussians and the Austrians, and don't forget that Strasbourg is only on the other side of the Rhine from Germany or whatever part of Germany er, it was at the time. [222] Er, not Prussia, that was a bit further away, but nonetheless, the threat was there. [223] Erm, there was a big reunion at the house of the Mayor of Strasbourg, Baron Dietrich, and they discussed a number of things, and one of the topics was raised was how coarse the Revolutionary songs were. [224] The Revolution had taken place, the Revolutioners had been singing songs, and one of the people present at this dinner, this banquet, said, what we need is something different, something new, we need a new war song. [225] And er, Baron Dietrich called across to Rouget de Lisle, come on, Captain, make us a war song. [226] And in spite of his own protestations that he couldn't begin to do it, everybody pressed him, including Madame Dietrich, including the Baron's wife, and she charmed him. [227] So. [228] Rouget returned that evening to his rather humble lodgings in the town. [229] In his mind he had obviously got fragments of things that he'd heard and seen that day, there was an expression that was being called out, [...] To arm citizens, because war had been declared. [230] [...] The Standard of War is Being Unfurled. [231] He probably also remembered that the Mayor's son was a commander of a ba battalion that was called Enfant de la |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[232] [...] children of the fatherland, motherland. [233] So with these words in his mind, these snippets of words, he he he sat down. [234] He took up his violin. [235] Found a tune, he took up his pen and he wrote some words, and according to the story, according to the legend, the next day at day-break, he rushed off to the Mayor Dietrich, and was able to say, I have done it. [236] And Madame Dietrich describes this in a letter which she later wrote to her brother. [237] Her husband was a very good tenor, the Baron, he sang, and she wrote out the parts for piano, and various other instruments. [238] Now there is a famous picture somewhere in in France, I think kept in one of the museums in Strasbourg, which shows this scene, but it shows Rouget de Lisle actually singing it. [239] The truth according to the letter, is that it was the Baron, the Mayor of Strasbourg who sang this for the very first time. [240] There's been a lot of discussion about who actually wrote the erm, the National Anthem. [241] There is some thought that this other musician, the choir master of Strasbourg wrote it, or perhaps produced the music, to which erm, Rouget de Lisle produced the words. [242] Nobody really knows, it's been ... discussed, argued about for years and years and years. [243] Perhaps we shall never know. [244] It's rather nice to think that it happened in that way, that it was done overnight. [245] Rouget de Lisle had a very unfortunate end to his life, because erm, he was, he had a good position, but he lost it. [246] Erm, Dietrich the Mayor had to flee the country. [247] He fled to Switzerland, he then returned. [248] He was captured, and you know what the French do. [249] He had his head cut off, he was guillotined. [250] Erm, Rouget, as I say, lost his position as a Captain, he was arrested, he was imprisoned. [251] He became friendly with Napoleon Bonaparte, and he became friendly with Josephine. [252] Now don't forget, that I said, that in spite of the fact that he'd got one shoulder higher than the other, he was very attractive to women, and there is running through this story, the suggestion that maybe he was too friendly with Josephine. [253] She was the one who kept saying, not tonight, wasn't she? [254] Or they said it to her, I don't know. [255] Erm, and perhaps because he was becoming too friendly with Josephine, he was sent to Spain by Bonaparte, but then he fell out with Bonaparte, and Bonaparte fell out with him, and he was put under surveillance by the erm, the President, and erm, it makes you wonder what really went wrong. [256] Rouget de Lisle never married. [257] Perhaps he had fallen in love with someone, who knows who it might be, but he never married. [258] He lived out in the country for a number of years, lived in poverty, erm, he thought about and he wrote about suicide. [259] He had a miserable life, he came to Paris and led a further miserable life. [260] And this was the man who wrote their National Anthem. [261] Finally in eighteen thirty, there was yet another revolution in France, and that brought him a a ray of hope. [262] He was finally given a pension, but by that time he was old, he was half paralysed, and he was nearly blind, and he died in eighteen thirty-six, only six years after he'd received this recognition and this pension. [263] And he was, he had an unfortunate death, because he he he his body was buried in the little churchyard near to the village where he had been brought up, and he'd no sooner been buried, than they decided to run a road through, or, erm, something, so his body had to be unearthed and moved somewhere else, and it wasn't until nineteen sixteen, that the body erm, was taken out and was taken to Paris, and restored in the [...] er, where so many other famous people erm, do have their tombs and their remembrances. [264] So that's the story. [265] A rather sad story in a way, about a man who, for a very short time, achieved fame in Strasbourg because he he wrote the Marseillaise, which we all recognised, didn't we? |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[266] Let's let's hear the next one. [267] [playing music] Know, that one, don't you. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[268] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[269] Deutschelands. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[270] That's Deutschelands |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[271] That's the, that's the German National Anthem, it's Deutscheland [...] , Germany Above All. [272] I think you have to remember that the next line begins, If, so it's not just a pro it is, it is a nationalistic song, but it's not just a proclamation that they will be, erm, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[273] superb, superior. [274] It's If. [275] There is a condition attached to it. [276] Erm, apparently the first tune they used to those words, was a tune, which I've not been able to find, which came from Britain. [277] Er, and eventually they took that tune from a melody from a Haydn's string quartet. [278] And of course, it's also a hymn tune, isn't it. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[279] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[280] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[281] Erm, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[282] very often used, it's the old hundred, is it. [283] Yeah, it's the erm, the one [singing] Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. [284] It's [...] city of my God, that's it. [285] Erm, like this country Germany has, not only a National Anthem, but it has various songs that are also nationalistic. [286] Erm, we would think of others, wouldn't we, not only do we have our own National Anthem, but we have other songs that that arouses from time to time. [287] Land of Hope and Glory, is one that almost is a substitute for |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[288] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[289] The National Anthem, and the Germans also have various other ones, erm, there is one which is very well known, called the Watch on the Rhine, bearing in mind that the Rhine for much of its length is the border between Germany and ... the rest of the world. [290] Erm, certainly between Germany and France. [291] Erm, so that is the one that used to be used, and to some extent is now used. [292] There was a time when they were only allowed to sing the last verse, not the first verse, because of this er very nationalistic erm, attitude that it portrayed. [tape stopped and restarted] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[293] Yes, Dutch, yes,no not as I say, not far away, that was Deut the first the first one we heard was Deutscheland, and that was the Dutch one, that's the Netherlands one, erm, written a long time ago, written in the sixteenth century, written as a piece of music, erm, the tune, apparently very very old indeed, erm, and Mozart took the tune, and made variations on it, which is perhaps why it sounds familiar, you've probably heard it somewhere else. [294] Erm, it was adopted when Wilhelmina became Queen in eighteen ninety-eight. [295] Adopted as their National Anthem, and the words mean something like, Let Him in Whose Veins Flows the Blood of the Netherlands Remains Free from a Foreigners Strain. [296] Again, very nationalistic, and, rather short, isn't it. [297] I think I'd rather stand to that one, than I would, of like standing to the Czechoslovakian one, which seemed to go on and on and on. [298] Erm, another tradi [music] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[299] Few, any dancers in the company. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[300] Spanish. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[301] Do you notice anything about that? |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[302] It's, in, it's it's in three, four time, it's a waltz time. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[303] Mm. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[304] You could waltz to it, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[305] But it would be a funny one to march to, wouldn't it, although, you know, but it it it was certainly in three four time. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[306] Yes. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[307] The waltzing time. [308] It's it's it's er, it's Polish, it's Polish. [309] It's erm, a traditional song as I say, and erm, it was, erm, it was written, ah, way back in, just after the turn of the the century, eighteen hundred and something, eighteen hundred and five or six, something like that. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[310] It's a l it's a lively tune. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[311] It's a very lively tune, but it is |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[312] Considering Poland was really oppressed. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[313] Yeah, it is, it is, it's a waltz. [314] It is a waltz. [315] Erm, so if you want to get up and have a dance, that's the one to to play to. [316] This is another, er, I think, very very traditional one. [317] [tape stopped and restarted] Haven't heard of that one before, it's it's a Swe , Swedish Swedish National Anthem, and it's erm, it's it's something like, Though Ancient, Though Free, and Mountainous North, Though Silent, Though Joyest, Though Beautiful North. [318] So it's very much praising the landscape of the country. [319] Not the King. [320] Not the battles. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[321] No. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[322] Not the flags, but the countryside. [323] Erm, first sung apparently as the end of the last century, about eighteen ninety-four, erm, and they had at least three other Anthems in their time, including, at one stage, using the two, a pair, God Save the King, God Save the Queen. [324] So as I say, ours has been about a bit, it's been borrowed by various people. [325] But that that is the the Swedish one. [326] This one I'm sure you'll recognise. [playing music] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[327] Russia. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[328] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[329] Red Flag, ah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[330] No, no, no. [331] You're the wrong side of the world, altogether. [332] It's United States. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[333] States. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[334] The United States. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[335] You know, I thought it was, but, it sounded more like ... |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[336] It's the Star Spangled Banner, the Star Spangled Banner, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[337] That's it, forever. [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[338] yes. [339] They they also have My Country it is of Thee. [340] And the picture you sometimes have, well, certainly the one I have recently, is of President Clinton standing there,whe whi listening to whatever version they were playing, when he was in Russia. [341] Erm, with his hand across on his heart, because that's that's the the way that they do it. [342] Erm, it was written in eighteen fourteen, and the author, at the time, was watching the bombardment of Baltimore from a British ship on which he had been detained. [343] So there is some history, erm, to it. [344] But the melody, apparently, had been the song of a gentleman's music club. [345] So the words composed to fit the tune, that's already been going around in a, in a gentleman's music club. [346] Erm, it's it's a very interested one, isn't it. [347] And you, again, you, I'm sure you'd heard it before, but were difficult to say, is it, is it there. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[348] Yeah. [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[349] Yeah |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[350] I wonder what you would make of this one. [351] I don't think you'll [tape stopped and restarted] and I suppose I make no apologies for including it, because I think we are all very well aware of the terrible tragedy that is happening in in Yugoslavia It's not not an Anthem that I would have recognised, erm, I was fortunate to go to Yugoslavia on, I think, two occasions, in happier times, and it saddens me tremendously, to see, on the television, to hear on the radio, to read in the newspapers, just what has happened to what was emerging as, not only a very beautiful, but a very successful country. [352] I first went, I suppose in in something like the nineteen seventies, and I can remember in those days having some difficulty getting into the country. [353] Because it was a communist led country, erm, but I had, I was going to visit friends, er, and it it was, possible for us to get in. [354] Oh, we had to wait at the border, we had in advance to get visas, and when we got there, things were very simple but nonetheless, we were very well received, and the person that I was staying with, lived in a flat, a very simple flat, but nonetheless, a very pleasant flat. [355] I went back, not to see the same people, but I went back, erm, on a a family holiday. [356] I should think it was about ten, fifteen years later, and it was so easy to get into the country. [357] That had changed tremendously, so easy it was to get into the country, that I went in and out of the border about three times, because having got into Yugoslavia, I realized I had some Italian currency, so I drove out again, spent my Italian currency, and drove back again. [358] Er, er, and nobody seemed to bother then, the the place had opened up, it had become westernised, it was prosperous, it was green, er wherever you went you were very welcome, people tried to speak English, people tried to communicate. [359] That was in something like nineteen seventy, nineteen eighty something, the the the turn of the seventies, eighties. [360] Now look what had happened to the place, and I play you that because, maybe we shall never ever hear that again, because Yugoslavia cannot now exist as a State. [361] It must eventually be split up into, the Muslims, the Serbs, the Croats, and that, that is in fact very sad. [362] So I I propose [tape stopped and restarted] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[363] You were not singing, God Save the Person, it was God Save the Nation. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[364] Nation. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[365] Yes, yes, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[366] [...] the interpretation [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[367] Because the King represented the Nation, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[368] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[369] yes, yes. [370] yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[371] And al always on, the same, I think it is always the same school, er, Rupert. [372] Always on Armistice Day, on the eleventh of November, the erm, not only the Ki , the the, God Save The King, National Anthem, but also the Marseillaise was, because it was a French class weren't they, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[373] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[374] we knew that, and we had to sing it in French. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[375] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[376] But what I meant was, we was always, going have those two. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[377] Yes, yes, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[378] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[379] I don't we're proud of our country any more, are we? |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[380] We've, we've, we've run ourselves down far too long, and er I think this is true of us as individuals, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[381] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[382] As well as being true of the country. [383] We,we we've gone through a stage where we've said, I'm not good enough, my families not good enough, my home's not, and my class isn't good, and my my town isn't good enough, erm, and so you go on from that, and you you eventually, but well, you know, what about England. [384] England's not worth very much, is it. [385] We we aren't, perhaps not the world-power that we used to be. [386] Be we've got a lot that we ought to be proud of. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[387] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[388] Certainly got a lot. [389] Yeah, we we have run ourselves down, yeah, quite you're quite true. [390] Quite right. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[391] You notice a difference, even when you go to Wales. [392] Where the [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[393] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[394] [...] there, |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[395] Yeah, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[396] They they're off like a shot, aren't they. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[397] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[398] with their National Anthem. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[399] Yes, yes, yeah yes yeah, and of course they're all so wonder singers, aren't they, the Welsh. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[400] Yes, oh yes. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[401] Erm, you know. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[402] I think they say it's the hills, don't they, that er |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[403] I don't know, I don't what it is, er, the, whether it's the hills or the water, but er, there's something, there's something that makes wonderful singers out of them. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[404] Yeah, it's lovely. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[405] They're not afraid to let themselves go. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[406] Go. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[407] No, they er, they're not inhibited. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[408] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[409] Whereas er, I'm afraid we English are inclined to do a bit of that. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[410] Yes, yes yeah, I mean, I think if I if I were to say to you, shall we sing the National Anthem, we'd say, oh no, no, no. [411] No, don't want to do that. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[412] I think it's because there's such a lot of mixed people here now. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[413] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[414] Er, that's what it is, we're not a true Brits, now. [415] We're not true Brits, we got to be like er, foreign people and er, we just seem to go their ways. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[416] Yes, I think that, you know, I made the comment earlier that erm, we have changed in the way in which news is communicated, it takes seconds. [417] We've changed in the way in which we travel. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[418] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[419] Years ago, if you wanted to go to,n now let's say, to to Poland. [420] It it would take you days upon days, in order to get there. [421] Now you can do it in a matter of hours, in an aeroplane. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[422] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[423] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[424] And so it is possible for people to come and live here, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[425] That's right. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[426] er, bring in their ways and their habits with them. [427] Erm, and it is just as possible, in theory, for us to go and live somewhere else. [428] Er, it is, it is very easy. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[429] Some people are a bit more fussy, though, they [...] what they are, aren't they. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[430] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[431] And that makes it. [432] Er, that they keep their own ... [...] saying down there. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[433] Yes, yes, yes |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[434] Not like us. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[435] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[436] Any old Tom, Dick, and Harry can come. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[437] Yeah, that's very true. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[438] That's right. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[439] Any other comments about Ma National Anthems and memories of ... hearing National Anthems. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[440] When I was a girl, [cough] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[441] When you were a girl, yes, yes. [442] Here we go. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[443] [laugh] [...] now. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[444] That was a long time ago. [445] Because I belonged to the Guides, and my er, Lieutenant, Captain, I don't what she was, I forget. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[446] [...] haven't yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[447] Came home, she came home with me, she came home with me, and I'd just learned to play the piano, and I played that, it was, we'd just come from Guides, you see, and I I was only young. [448] Aha. [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[449] [...] Rupert. |
| Colin (PS48R) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[450] And and I played that, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[451] You were eleven. [452] Oh my God. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[453] 'cos I'd just learnt to play this, thought it was ever so clever, and she put her hands on me hands, and she said, no, no, you mustn't play that, not while we're in uniform. [454] I thought well ... that, I mean, that stuck in my mind ever since then. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[455] Yes, yes, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[456] Oh, well, we used to salute when they played [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[457] Are yes, but you see, we were just standing there, and I was just showing off. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[458] Oh. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[459] She said, no, we don't play that. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[460] Well that's that's that's rather strange isn't it, so you you, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[461] Well, I thought so. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[462] If you hadn't your uniform on, you could play it, but because you had your uniform on |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[463] [...] I don't why [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[464] couldn't play it. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[465] and I was so disappointed, because it was the only thing I could play. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[466] Yes, oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[467] I supp ag again, I think this, it it shows a very different attitude, it was as if |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[468] Oh, yes. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[469] the National Anthem was something quite sacred, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[470] That's right [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[471] erm, and erm, I don't know that I ever did this, but I never heard anybody heard anybody walking the street, whistling the National Anthem. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[472] No. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[473] No. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[474] Because if you, if if you did, somebody would think it was wrong. [475] You could whistle a song, but you couldn't wish whistle the National Anthem. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[476] Yeah, that's right, yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[477] It was, it was something quite sacred. [478] Something that you, perhaps kept in a box, almost, and brought out on certain occasions. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[479] [...] cinema everywhere, everybody stood up and stood still |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[480] Oh yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[481] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[482] but now. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[483] Some people used to go out |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[484] they just go out, walk out. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[485] Yes, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[486] We never used to do that years ago. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[487] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[488] Mm. [489] Mm. [490] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[491] [laugh] How many times have you said that [...] get out before National Anthem [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[492] Before the National Anthem yes, yes, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[493] You could get round that, if you went out during the singing of it. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[494] Mm. [495] Mm. [496] You either got out before, or |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[497] [...] at the beginning [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[498] [...] because of those at the beginning. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[499] I know, when we used to down to London to the London Scout Gang Show. [500] They always used to play the National Anthem before . |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[501] Before. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[502] Yes, yes, yes. [503] It always seems appropriate to me to open, if you going to have a National Anthem at all, you should open with it, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[504] Open with it. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[505] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[506] Erm, and erm, and in a way, get it out of the way, but in a way register the fact that erm, you are observing, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[507] Yeah. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[508] the importance of the Nation, if not the importance of the monarchy. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[509] Especially when you travel to London, I mean, it meant it late,co couldn they did it first, didn't they, so you got it in. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[510] Mm. [511] And then you were away, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[512] Then you went to the Gang Show. [513] To the Gang Show rather. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[514] Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah . |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[515] I wondered if they still did it at the pictures, 'cos it's years since I went to the pictures. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[516] I have no, no, no, I don't, I I wouldn't think |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[517] I wouldn't think it's been played in a cinema for years. [518] I was in a cinema on whichever evening, Saturday evening, and they certainly didn't have that. [519] They had lots of advertisements, |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[520] Oh, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[521] [...] be at the end, don't they. |
| Colin (PS48R) |
[522] Yeah, no. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[523] Half of hour of advertisements. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) |
[524] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JK2PSUNK) | [...] |