Leicestershire County Council: debate. Sample containing about 17333 words speech recorded in public context

11 speakers recorded by respondent number C553

PS4C4 X m (No name, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4C5 X m (Taylor, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4C6 X f (Setchfield, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4C7 X f (Beale, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4C8 X m (Beale, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4C9 X m (Joranpucher, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4CA X f (Bury, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4CB X m (Willmott, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
PS4CC X m (Howard, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
JNBPSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
JNBPSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 112801 recorded on 1993-09-29. LocationLeicestershire: Leicester ( Council chamber ) Activity: debate

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [1] Creator and sustainer of all things and all people.
[2] You are the source of all wisdom and light.
[3] Enlighten our minds to receive your guidance so that you may lead us unto true wisdom.
[4] May all that we say and do in the service of this county, whether as elected member or as officer, be in accordance with your will and for the good of your people.
[5] Amen.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [6] Yes we've got about two hundred people outside.
(PS4C4) [7] Firstly, evacuation procedure.
[8] In the event, and this is a normal evacuation procedure, not with the circumstances.
[9] In the event of having to evacuate the council chamber would everyone leave by one of the two exits at the rear of the chamber.
[10] Officers will be at hand to assist any disabled persons.
[11] ... Agenda item one, Chairman's announcement -visitors.
[12] I welcome to this meeting all visitors and guest of members ... and in particular to the Mayor and Mayoress of [...] Councillor and Mrs Mike .
[13] ... Mr Robert and Mr Ken .
[14] I know members will be sorry to hear that Mr Robert and Mr Ken are both unwell and will wish me to convey to them the council's best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [15] Here, here.
(PS4C4) [16] The, there are two hundred people I am told, in the hall at the rear ... so I shall move shortly resolution to bring forward motion at the rear of the agenda forward, before that I shall deal with the routine council business of petitions, declarations of interest and members' questions.
[17] After that I shall move the resolution to bring the motion forward.
[18] Agenda item two.
[19] I move that the minutes of the meeting of the council held on thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three, copies of which have been circulated to members, to be taken as read, confirmed and signed.
[20] ... Item four.
[21] Declarations of interest.
[22] Are there any members who wish to do make declarations of pecuniary and non-pecuniary interests in respects of items on the agenda for this meeting.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [23] Chairman, I wish to declare an interest on the social services erm item regarding elderly person's homes.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [24] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [25] an interest in policy and resources item B.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [26] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [27] I declare an interest in, on item nine part B.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [28] Mr ... the resources [...] issue.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [29] Could we just clear whether those are pecuniary or non-pecuniary.
(PS4C4) [30] Could you confirm whether these are pecuniary or non- pecuniary interests please?
[31] Could we start
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [32] Pecuniary.
(PS4C4) [33] Pecuniary.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [34] Non-pecuniary.
(PS4C4) [35] Non-pecuniary.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [36] Pecuniary.
(PS4C4) [37] Pecuniary.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [38] Non-pecuniary.
(PS4C4) [39] Non-pecuniary.
[40] Thank you.
[41] No other interests, right.
[42] Agenda item four, petitions presented under standing order seven.
[43] Mr .
Taylor (PS4C5) [44] Thank you gentlemen.
[45] I would like to present a petition standing my, in my name on the green order paper ... signed by two hundred and eight ... si signatures of parents of St Mary's Fields s school, erm I move that this be ... be referred to the education committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [46] Mrs ... seconding.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [47] Seconded.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [48] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [49] Mrs
Beale (PS4C7) [50] Thank you chairman.
[51] I wish to present the petition containing seven hundred and eighty three signatures of people who request the provision of a pedestrian crossing in Brook Side, Burghley following two recent accidents to elderly residents as elaborated on the green order paper.
[52] I move that the petition be referred to the environment committee for consideration
(PS4C4) [53] Mr
Beale (PS4C8) [54] Second that.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [55] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [56] Mr
Taylor (PS4C5) [57] I'd like to move a petition containing four, two hundred and forty nine signatures of residents of Broadstone who request a ped pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane near road.
[58] I move that it be sent to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [59] Mrs
Setchfield (PS4C6) [60] Seconded.
[61] Mr Chairman
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [62] Er, Mr .
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [63] Thank you chairman.
[64] I wish to present a petition containing seven hundred and ninety six signatures organised by the Bell Group community childcare, set up due to lack of affordable child care facilities in the Belgrave area.
[65] I move this petition to be referred to the Social Services committee.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [66] Mrs
Bury (PS4CA) [67] Seconded chairman.
(PS4C4) [68] Mr
Willmott (PS4CB) [69] I I move the petition in my name on the green order paper Chairman, to restrict the speed of of cars in Mossgate, Leicester on behalf of Weston Park Labour party.
[70] I move that it be ... referred to the environment committee.
(PS4C4) [71] Mr .
Howard (PS4CC) [72] Second that.
(PS4C4) [73] Mr , J R
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [74] I'd like to move this petition under my name on the green order paper, that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration today.
(PS4C4) [75] Mr Cyril
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [76] Mr
(PS4C4) [77] I'd like to move a petition containing two hundred and forty four signatures and my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [78] Mrs
Taylor (PS4C5) [79] Seconded chairman
(PS4C4) [80] Mr
(PS4C4) [81] I move a petition containing nine hundred and sixteen signatures under my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [82] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [83] Seconded chairman.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
(PS4C4) [84] Not quite as tall eh.
[85] Mr .
Setchfield (PS4C6) [86] I'd like to present a petition containing five hundred er plus signatures from residents in road area who are concerned with traffic conditions on that road.
[87] I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [88] Mr .
Beale (PS4C7) [89] Second.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [90] Without seconding [...] seconded
(PS4C4) [91] Mr
Willmott (PS4CB) [92] Thank you chairman.
[93] I will ... move that the petition containing some one thousand one hundred and nine signatures as of, as of today, erm of people who call upon the county council to reverse its decision to sell part of the land known as The Green, Doddington Heath in my ward for development purposes.
[94] The petitioners further request Chairman, that the county council retain this land in perpetuity as an open space that is managed to conserve its considerable ecological value and recreational value ... and I would urge that this committee, this this council refer the petition to the policy and resources committee and that the decision of the council is reversed on this matter.
[95] Thank you unclear
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [96] here, here
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [97] I'd be delighted to second it Chairman.
(PS4C4) [98] Thank you.
[99] Mrs .
Taylor (PS4C5) [100] Erm yes, thank you Chairman, erm I present a petition on behalf of the er people of the village of Bradstone er concerned about the dangerous alignment of the highway and ask that this be referred to the environment committee.
(PS4C4) [101] Mr
(PS4C4) [102] Er, seconded.
(PS4C4) [103] Mrs
Beale (PS4C8) [104] Chairman, I ask that you receive erm, the petition of eight hundred and sixty four signatures requesting a pelican crossing on [...] and ask it be referred to the environment committee, please.
(PS4C4) [105] Mrs
Taylor (PS4C5) [106] Seconded.
(PS4C4) [107] Mrs again.
Beale (PS4C8) [108] Thank you Chairman.
[109] The second one to present the petition of one thousand three hundred and seventy two signatures asking that, who are opposed to Brady Hospital being turned into ... specialised unit for adolescents and to ask the county council not to proceed with plans to develop a group three community home on the site, erm I ask it be referred to the social services committee.
(PS4C4) [110] Mrs
Taylor (PS4C5) [111] Seconded.
(PS4C4) [112] Doctor
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [113] I'd like to move a petition containing seven hundred and twelve signatures, residents of Broadstone who request the installation of a pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane, bottom end of Shakespeare Drive and propose that it is passed on to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [114] Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [115] Seconded Chairman.
(PS4C4) [116] Mr
Willmott (PS4CB) [117] I wish to move a petition signed by four hundred and one people organised by the Hikehams Community Association asking the full county council to freeze its decision on of the Hikehams and Moat ... er merger issue.
[118] I wish the petition to be referred to the policy and resources committee.
(PS4C4) [119] Mr .
[120] Mr .
Howard (PS4CC) [121] Thank you Chair.
[122] Smallest petition of the lot, but the most important one ... regarding [...] road.
[123] Can I move that it be referred to the environment er committee.
[124] Ciao.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
(PS4C4) [125] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [126] Mr .
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [127] Sir I wish to present a petition containing a hundred and sixty six signatures of people who are opposed to the shutting off of the road calling instead ... for
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [128] the loco , the low cost tr er calming, traffic calming in the [...] area.
[129] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [130] Mr
(PS4C4) [131] I'd like to second that petition.
(PS4C4) [132] Mr
Taylor (PS4C5) [133] Petition containing nine hundred and ninety three signatures ... of people who are opposed to the [...] East West link road [...] .
[134] I move that the decision be referred to the environment committee for consideration.
(PS4C4) [135] Mr B
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [136] There are other petitions appertaining to a motion they will be referred to when the motion is taken.
[137] Now move on to agenda item five, questions under standing orders.
[138] Miss er Mr would you [...] .
Setchfield (PS4C6) [139] Thank you Chairman.
[140] Chair, with with the, with one small exception in in her reply that of Hamilton Community College ... would the Chairman agree that er the others she mentions in her reply to one ... and I note that she doesn't agree with Keith M P erm, would she, would she accept that the others are largely inaccessible to the youth of Nether Hall and what's she gonna do about it?
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [141] Mrs supplementary
Beale (PS4C7) [142] I don't know ... I don't know who Mr is referring to er Chair, but I presume you wish me to reply to some comments that came from across the other side of the room.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [clapping]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [143] [laughing] nice one sir []
(PS4C4) [144] I thought Mrs you'd be capable of defending yourself.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Beale (PS4C7) [145] Erm, I er have never known such a question asked in this council chamber where referring to members of parliament er in in er [...] and that is why I didn't feel it necessary [...]
(PS4C4) [146] Can you use the mike?
Beale (PS4C7) [147] To comment on that in my reply.
[148] ... I didn't think it necessary to comment about that in my reply to that, in fact I have, I was speaking with er Mr when I saw this question down and reported it to him that his name was being used in such a way ... erm.
[149] I'd like to say that in reply to the question your Mr will see that we are arranging a meeting to discuss the issues ... of youth facilities ... in erm the Netherhall area.
[150] I think everybody in this council chamber could say we want youth facilities in my ward.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [151] Here, here.
Beale (PS4C7) [152] Youth provision is, is a county council responsibility ... not a city council responsibility although for your information Mr , without the ... er zodiac youth centre grant in the ninety one, ninety two figures ... er, two hundred and thirty nine thousand one hundred and sixty six pounds were put in ... by the city council into that s , into that specific area in the Humberstone ward and the amount that was put in there in this financial year was approximately the same, but the reason being that there is no mar more money available is because hundreds of thousand of pounds were cut out of youth and community facilities that should have been provided by this city council by the Tory budget which this council approved last February.
(PS4C4) [153] Thank you.
[154] Would you ar ... er next question then Mr any supplementary on those.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [155] Thank you Chairman.
[156] Erm, Chairman,w would the spokesman agree that the that the resources argument which she has just used is ... is completely fallacious and would she rather expect
(PS4C4) [157] Mr
Setchfield (PS4C6) [158] Yes.
(PS4C4) [159] Mrs, this is Mrs would you refer to members by name please.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [160] Mrs I do apologise to Mrs Chairman.
[161] Would Mrs agree that the resources argument that she's just used is completely fallacious and would she not accept er that it's better to spend fifty thousand pounds
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [162] can you please be
Setchfield (PS4C6) [163] on providing youth facilities in Netherhall than it is for five hundred thousand pounds
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [164] on the [...] in Highfield.
(PS4C4) [165] We are dealing, with respect, we are dealing, I asked you to raise questions on the social services committee.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [166] I I was asking under two Chairman.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [167] Sit down old chap [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh] [clapping]
(PS4C4) [168] If if you would like to reply, you don't have to reply Mrs it's up to you.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [169] [...] talking about Mr Chairman
(PS4C4) [170] Right, would you
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [171] Mr will you, ... Mr will you please ... ask er, put forward any supplementary questions if you have them, on ... the next item of the spokesman of the social services committee please.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [172] Thank you Chairman.
[173] Erm, no questions on my second set but I'm very grateful for the er spokesman for their reply.
[174] Erm, if I m
(PS4C4) [175] If there's no supplementary well that's it really
Setchfield (PS4C6) [176] If I may Chairman on the third set of questions ... erm those are
(PS4C4) [177] which is?
[178] You're talking of..? [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [179] the er, the young people in secure accommodation Chairman.
[180] Erm, under number one ... erm, is the Chairman aware that the er current talk in Whitehall which has given out the contracts for er new secure accommodation units in various counties that the current talk in Whitehall is that because Leicestershire doesn't know its own mind because of the recent votes over secure accommodation that it's unlikely to get one in the present er round and isn't that a damning indictment erm of the Liberal and Labour parties in this county.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [181] Mrs
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [182] It's Mr
(PS4C4) [183] That's right, Mr sorry
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [184] Mr
Beale (PS4C8) [185] I'm not entirely sure Chairman that Whitehall's ever made up its mind on anything
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [186] Erm, bearing in mind that Leicestershire currently I think er reserves two places for secure accommodation ... and in the answers to my question, we have fifteen currently either needing or having secure accommodation with five being remanded because there is no place.
[187] Erm, would the er spokesman not agree that there is a crisis in secure accommodation in Leicestershire at the moment due entirely to the stance of the Labour and Liberal parties on this authority.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [188] Mr
Beale (PS4C8) [189] The need for additional secure places that can be accessed by Leicestershire is not at issue, ... what's still be investigated is how a regional service meeting varying types of needs can be provided ... discussions are still taking place with Northamptonshire county council and into some other current secure unit provider authorities as to how best Leicestershire can work with other local authorities in the region towards this objective.
[190] Neither Whitehall, ... nor government ... nor this county council, nor the children we're talking about would welcome being used as a political football by Mr .
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [191] Here, here .
(PS4C4) [192] Thank you Mr .
[193] Dr , any supplementaries on your question?
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [194] Yes er to the for former question er Chairman.
[195] Er, what am I to tell the people in London and [...] partic in particular er when they say that the government and the county council is letting them down?
(PS4C4) [196] Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [197] Er, Chairman ... the, the only advice that I can give Dr on that point ... is to say ... that the county council is not letting them down ... er ... the funding for major road schemes is provided by central government and we make a contribution towards it but if central government do not give us permission to go ahead with the race road scheme in terms of a grant, then in fact it will not go ahead and in that situation they may be let down, that is their judgement and that should be reflected in the way they vote at parliamentary elections.
(PS4C4) [198] Mr , any supplementaries, thank you Mr .
(PS4C4) [199] Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [200] Thank you Mr Chairman
(PS4C4) [201] any supplementaries
Willmott (PS4CB) [202] I have two supplementary questions.
[203] First one ... concerning A. In view of the level of con concern expressed ... on police funding, would the chairman of the Police authority agree that some f that some protection of Police funds locally and nationally may be necessary.
(PS4C4) [204] Mr
Howard (PS4CC) [205] Yes, thank you, thank you, er thank you Mr councillor ... erm.
[206] Can I can I say that in my opinion ... that the county council's current budgeting strategy ... which effectively imposes a two percent efficiency saving which I might add ... in figures come to something like one point five million ... erm is, is of concern but what is of greater concern is the further possibility ... of a four percent ... er reduction which is being sought in blocks of three percent and one percent next year for ninety four ninety five ... which is to the amount of two point eight million at the current prices ... will in my opinion decimate the ... present level of service provision in policing.
[207] ... Erm.
[208] Community policing will be further marginalised ... with priority going to intermediate response type of incidents ... I am confident however that this council will make some ... crucial and vitally important decisions during the next ... er budget rounds and the importance of policing an inadequately funded service will be unanimously supported.
[209] Can I also add that representations to the Secretary of State for the Home Office ... will be central ... er component to secure those adequate resources with the Leicestershire Police erm, erm service needs.
[210] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [211] Thank you Mr
Willmott (PS4CB) [212] Does the Chairman share my concern regarding the Home Secretary's proposals ... containing the white paper on Police which will dramatically reduce local accountability of the Police service to the Leicestershire public.
(PS4C4) [213] Mr
Howard (PS4CC) [214] I'm grateful chair, once again for Mr on that er ... second supplementary.
[215] ... The real danger of course is ... the forthcoming Police bill ... the proposal which were instituted by the ... present er Treasurer, ... erm ... ... er the Chancellor ... er and instituted further on by the present Home Secretary would lead to a ... centrally appointed Police committee at least fifty percent and a centrally appointed chairman, paid by the Home Secretary much rather like the Leicestershire Health Authority and of course this will severely undermine the local democratic accountability of the Police service.
[216] Can I also add that ... it will also instigate centrally determined policing policies, very much akin to ... other government policies, particularly economic policies which have, as yet, done nothing to address the underlying causes of crime and ... there are fears and I'm quoting here from the ... er ... the response made by the Association of Metropolitan ... Authorities, the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils that it could lead to a national Police force.
[217] But what is important is that there is opposition er ... Chairman at the national level which is set to continue and once again representations are being undertaken ... er to be made to local Members of Parliament and to Members of the House of Lords.
[218] But it is of concern ... and I do hope that in the next forthcoming ... er house er when the the house sits in the forthcoming rounds, that they will be mindful of the representations which have been made nationally ... and that the Police service and the proposals contained, particularly in the Police bill, will not be fully implemented in the way that they're currently proposed on the white paper today.
(PS4C4) [219] Could I point out to members that we did have er written replies to try and speed up the question process, could I ask members both in asking the question and especially in answering, not to make it another speech occasion because otherwise it destroys the whole purpose of having the written replies.
[220] Please try and keep questions and answers to the point please, thank you.
[221] Did you wish Mr to raise your, on the, in that, that concludes you does it Mr ?
[222] Okay.
[223] Mr ... you have a question.
Howard (PS4CC) [224] Chairman, yes.
[225] [laughing] Thank you very much, [] yes point taken but a vitally important issue and I'm very grateful once again that you have allowed this ... as an emergency question ... erm.
[226] My supplementary is will the Chairman of policy and resources committee make a statement to the county council to reassure ... and inform the ethnic minority community ... and the general public of Leicestershire of the need for tolerance and racial harmony ... and reaffirm the county council's opposition ... to all forms of racist dogma.
[227] Can I further ask will he join me to congratulate the Chief Constable in an unprecedented move ... in which he ... actually formed links and created a an environment of partnership as recently highlighted in the Leicester Mercury.
[228] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [229] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...] [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [230] Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr .
[231] ... If it is not an emergency question, you are in time Mr with your ... question, in case anyone thinks that it was an emergency question was put down
(PS4C4) [232] It wasn't an emergency question.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [233] It was not.
Willmott (PS4CB) [234] No it was, it was in the time limit.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [235] I must say in that sense, thank you Mr for your ... question, because it's an an issue that's conc should concern ... every member of this authority.
[236] I would like the members of this authority to ... to have a look at the reply ... I make no apology for the length of the reply to Mr 's very important question.
[237] On erm what you have asked for Mr .
[238] I must say that I am happy to make that statement ... and in view of some of the things that have been, that have appeared in the media recently ... here's a statement that needs to be made ... as for your your your ques , what the, the Chief Constable I welcome the statement and the actions of the ... Chief Constable on this very concerning issue.
(PS4C4) [239] Thank you.
[240] Mr Have you any supplementary?
(PS4C4) [241] Yes sir, on the erm ... first part erm ... in in clarification if I might sir ... the erm ... question of er briefing the Chairman is in fact dealt with in paragraph forty seven of annex C of P P G twelve ... although I'm grateful for information on paragraph forty eight, erm and it says amongst other things ... that er there shall be a briefing and that briefing, the contents of that briefing shall be made public ... can I press the er ... spokesman for the environment committee to tell us ... er ... why in fact that wasn't done ... and whether he thinks there can be prop proper public debate ... if it isn't done.
(PS4C4) [242] Sorry about that.
[243] Carry on Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [244] It is my understanding from the reply ... there's a fairly clear statement there that that was done ... erm ... I indeed have a copy of the principal briefing paper which the Director prepared for the panel, Chairman ... it outlined the background to the structure plan review, it referred to the previously approved ... structure plans, copies of which were appended to the ... briefing paper.
[245] It referred to the regional strategy which is currently out for ... consultation but was an emerging document and copies of that were again ... appended ... to the briefing paper ... it outlined the county council's procedures which were followed in progress in the structure plan ... it outlined a programme establishing the weight of opinion of objectors ... it indicated our process in preparing policy amendments to be put to the panel ... and all those matters were made public ... It also requested the panel's view on the role of county council members at the enquiry in public the responses to that were not made public and were in fact a question which was clearly put to the panel.
[246] The paper also discussed erm the proposed topics for discussion at the enquiry in public it explained where the county council's ... er relevant policies would be found in the extra electory memorandum ... it outlined the key objections and the proposed participants for each topic.
[247] ... The first two of those were also included were made public, they are in the issue's papers ... it did not ... make ... public ... the county council's proposal as to who should be participants for each topic ... since those were matters for the ... the panel er to to ma take a view of ... and I understood er from er ... the question ... er the answer to the question ... that it had been made clear that er the information had been made public ... except as always Chairman, ... er our legal office's of the council always like that caveat that in case anything had been missed out ... I had just in fact suggested that perhaps not everything had been made public ... so ... I anticipated a possible supplementary question from Mr .
(PS4C4) [248] Thank you.
[249] That concludes the questions and answers
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [250] No it doesn't sir [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [251] Clarification [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [252] The second question I have ... with your permission sir.
(PS4C4) [253] Yeah.
(PS4C4) [254] Erm ... should the erm ... that, given that er, sorry, that the er, er O P C S in fact erm ... er after every census makes er guesses about its accuracy ... erm ... would erm the spokesman, is the spokesman aware that in fact O P C S has said that a ... fair ... erm ... representation of the intercensal increase in population in Leicestershire ... er between nineteen eighty one and nineteen ninety one is in fact fifteen thousand people and doesn't he feel that to provide for fifty three thousand in the structure plan is a little over the top?
(PS4C4) [255] Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [256] Mr makes ... there was an under, enumeration of figures and that has been made clear in the reply ... the reply is quite clear about the basis on which the structure plan ... is being promulgated and the ... total projected total population in two thousand and six ... regards the historical data, that should be taken, as far as I'm concerned, as matters of fact, will of course not be absolutely accurate ... and as far as projected data is concerned all that we can do ... any of us can do ... is to try and make the best estimates possible and I am satisfied that our officers will have done that.
[257] I hope I've understood the supplementary question correctly, if I've not I apologise to Mr ... but we are dealing in a technical area.
[258] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [259] I have decided to exercise my discretion under standing order five so that agenda item nine B, notice of motion by Mr on fox-hunting to be taken now.
[260] In addition to the many personal representation made to members of the council on the subject of fox hunting on county council land, the county secretary has now received a total of two hundred and six written representations ... nearly as many as me.
[261] Of these a hundred and sixty eight contain expressions of opposition to fox hunting and thirty eight contain either expressions of support for fox hunting or that the county council should not be considering the matter for one reason or another.
[262] I have also had passed to me a petition from Mr containing four thousand five hundred signatures from the ... national anti-hunt petition ... er, there is a doubt of the petition or a letter from the tenant farmers but er, there is representation from them.
[263] Erm, Mr would you move the motion please.
Taylor (PS4C5) [264] Thank you Chair, erm ...
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Taylor (PS4C5) [265] In moving the motion this time I'm not going to be very passionate like I normally am on on subjects in this council chamber ... I'm I'm actually gonna try and keep, I'm actually going to try and keep politics down to a low level ... and er ... because I believe there conscience on all sides of this chamber.
[266] We have not got a monopoly on conscience ... I know that certain Liberals ... have debated this subject and as th the passions been raised in their group meetings.
[267] I know also that some Conservatives that feel that perhaps what I've laid before you this afternoon ... has some credence.
[268] The reason I did this, because some ... sixteen months ago, like over a year ago we brought it and lost it, it wasn't a victory for anybody or er or er a real loss for anyone because ... it was lost by one vote.
[269] By wrecking a motion at the time, ... rightly or wrongly placed ... and once again I see this afternoon we've got a similar motion on the table.
[270] What I want to do though is is kind of thank a few people for start off.
[271] [...] anti-hunt people, the League of Cruel Sports and all sorts of other organisations that have actually asked their members not to be here today, not to cause a problem, not to divert attention from the real issues in the debate er er and cause a crisis outside for all the press and the media to latch on to, that's not what they were about.
[272] I respect the fact the Hunt are here, er I respect the fact the literature that they've sent us, from all sides of the fence, from the League Against Cruel Sports, the hunting fraternity, it's been very helpful.
[273] It hasn't changed my view.
[274] I also want to put right ... it, er the facts that have been presented to me, that it's an urban erm view, it's city people ... making a ... er, their will, imposing their will on country folk, on the practices of country folk.
[275] I am not a city person and have never lived in a city in my life ... I represent a rural area, a hunting area, a [...] hunting area erm I believe the terrier men from the [...] some of them live in my area.
[276] ... I can tell you this ... the general public ... have sent me literally hundreds of cards ... I have had well wishing cards, I've also had some letters from the opposition, some of them, to be quite honest, have been disgraceful.
[277] Some of them have ... asked me about my parentage, some of them have asked me whether or not I am tinkering with the laws of God.
[278] I will extract those to one side and say they not really followers of the hunt, they are probably ... some weird faction that latch onto these type of things ... during erm ... these issues.
[279] It's a shame also that we have to fill the council chamber on such a debate.
[280] It's a pity that the general public don't come into this chamber ... on, on a normal debate, about education, about children's needs, about social services, the very things that I've
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [281] Here, here, [clapping]
Taylor (PS4C5) [282] been attacked over the last few months ... of not wasting time on the hunt ... I spend an awful lot of time relieving heavy goods traffic in my area, concerned totally about the environment, about mineral extraction ... quarries, mining, open cast, things of that calibre.
[283] This is one debate, one small debate, hopefully put to bed within an hour with a decent result.
[284] The motion itself ... is a compromise ... some on my side have said it's too much of a compromise ... they've said you're tr trying to be all things to all people.
[285] What I have done is hopefully brought together ... a er a view of people, a clash of personalities and a way forward.
[286] I want to answer the questions on jobs.
[287] ... Those jobs can be protected, I know the hunting fraternity say they don't want to drag hunt.
[288] We set standards, standards evolve ... we are coming to the stage now in nineteen ninety three ... the standards that are being set ... are changing and at the end of the day the hunt have got to come along with us.
[289] The gauntlet was down, the opportunity to talk to ... arrange a forum, to come together, land owners, local authorities, the hunt's people, er the interested parties, to come together and look for a decent way of hunting ... and that way is probably drag hunting and we're giving you a golden opportunity ... to start that route.
[290] It's gotta start somewhere, there's a motion, a tide of feeling going across the country on council from council, it won't be long before people like me are M P's and others around you that are M P's are in the [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Taylor (PS4C5) [291] and fellow members that will be down in Whitehall and eventually will put you to bed, if you bury your head in the sand and at the end of the day I'm afraid the country is going to knock it off.
[292] The general public are saying ... no.
[293] Time has come for a change.
[294] I want to thank also er the different organisations, cos you made an absolute profit for the G P O, er erm British Telecom, they must have ... actually made a bomb in Leicestershire over the last few days.
[295] I thank the League Against Cruel Sports for their literature.
[296] Very, very informative.
[297] I also thank the hunting fraternity for their ... documentary they sent me on hunting the facts.
[298] But I would like to point out ... in this video, and on the ... brochure that goes with it, actually says ... the rest of the field are there to follow on horseback ... or on foot or by car, very few people indeed actually witness the death of a fox.
[299] The followers are there for a day out in the countryside, the opportunity to ride or to walk freely over private property ... with the consent of the landowner.
[300] I agree, sometimes I can tell you I have witnessed a hunt and on a cold, frosty morning ... when er about forty or fifty horses are thundering across the ploughed field, it's enough to p the power of that sight is enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up ... that's not what we are against ... the hunter that came to me and says Eh up lad, I won't go drag hunting because I'm sixty years old, I've done it all my life ... and I like the ride, I like to be there ... I never see a fox killed ... that's fact, it's in the video.
[301] So why is it important that the kill has to continue.
[302] You can continue your sport ... the decent side of the sport without the need for the kill ... and and we will encourage, my motion actually encourages that, encourages the fox hunting fraternity to look at a way forward, come forward, talk to us.
[303] If you're willing to go down the route to drag hunting ... I am willing to support ... any hunt that wants to go down that route and I am sure this authority would.
[304] We can negotiate access to our land ... and we will be only too pleased to do so ... but whilst you are killing the fox er and at the end of the day, it is not on.
[305] I've also said to certain factions of the ... er direct action groups ... this is the unacceptable face of protest.
[306] Let's put that side of the protest to bed.
[307] ... If you change now, Leicestershire has a golden opportunity, we are proud of the fox, we are proud of the fox in Leicestershire, our football team, the Foxes, ... our, our fox cubs ... our Police emblem, it isn't the hunters, we don't support the hunters ... at Leicester's Street, we support the foxes and at the end of the day I think there is room ... for the hunting fraternity to stay as part of the pageantry in Leicestershire.
[308] When we get to the jobs ... erm ... side of it ... the jobs I I I'm accused outside this afternoon ... of of putting ... in jeopardy one thousand something jobs ... erm, this authority got rid of seven hundred jobs, education jobs ... er only a few months ago ... and there's many more, something on the region of two thousand jobs will be lost in this authority without a protest.
[309] without protest from a parent, without a protest from a hunter ... without a protest from er a anyone else, that is a shame, because I tell you what, if you go drag hunting, you can keep the jobs ... the people are still going to have to shoe the horses ... [...] traders and people like that are still going to have to produce the carriages to take the horses with them and the only people ... job jobs are in jeopardy are not the kennel staff ... it's the terrier men ... and to be quite honest, ladies and gentlemen, it's the terrier men who have actually ruined your sport, cos of what they get up to in nineteen ninety three is a disgust ... and at the end of the day your P R has been absolutely wrong ... and I hope this afternoon ... that ... Conservatives and Liberals can join with us and I've got to thank a certain Liberal because he's ... he's put his head on the block on several occasions on this when we stood on the platform as individuals, not as ... politicians, as individuals on this and I think that this afternoon ... we've got a way forward, we can say to the hunt, come and talk ... you change, we'll give you access.
[310] Thank you Chair.
(PS4C4) [311] Have we a seconder.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [312] No.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [313] Thank you.
[314] Did you wish to move an amendment?
(PS4C4) [315] Thank you sir.
[316] Can I erm, ... er move the amendment that is in ... my name.
[317] ... [cough] This is fact is a debate about personal freedom ... the freedom of our tenants to choose the quite legal activities ... that take place on their farms ... for whatever we ... may think about the merits and de-merits of ... angling or shooting ... fox hunting, these are activities that Parliament has decided are permissible.
[318] ... Chairman, I believe that this is just the sort of motion ... that can only bring local government into disrepute ... It's an abuse of power ... the council holds lands in the county farms estate ... for purposes set out in the nineteen sixty agriculture act.
[319] It doesn't hold land ... in order to allow ideologues to impose their views on our tenants ... and impose it through a form of nineteenth century landlordism.
[320] ... If ... Mr ... doesn't like field sports ... he should seek, try to seek ... to persuade Parliament to ban it ... he'll have an excellent opportunity because he'll, he's told us ... that he'll be an MP shortly ... that's what's happening, that's what's happened ... in the case of cock fighting and badger baiting ... it hasn't happened in the case of fox hunting ... and Mr shouldn't abuse his position as a councillor to dictate to the council's tenants in the way that he proposes.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [321] Here, here.
(PS4C4) [322] As well as being the sort of motion that brings local government into disrepute, I also believe ... that this is the sort of motion that, that displays a lack of tolerance that should concern us all.
[323] ... This county council has recognised that in Leicestershire ... we live in a [...] society.
[324] ... Labour members have been at the forefront in demanding ... that ethnic communities be free to keep their traditions and cultures ... yet here we are ... Labour members trying to prevent countrymen ... pursuing traditional country sports that have been followed by our forefathers for centuries.
[325] ... I cannot see the consistency.
Taylor (PS4C5) [326] Must be your forefathers, not mine.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
(PS4C4) [327] Yes,w well you said it ... And I think we are entitled to ask Mr whether he has actually ... asked the tenants for their views.
Taylor (PS4C5) [328] Yes.
[329] yes
(PS4C4) [330] Has he asked them how this initiative could ... affect their livelihood.
Taylor (PS4C5) [331] Yes.
(PS4C4) [332] Does he even care.
Taylor (PS4C5) [333] Yes, he does.
(PS4C4) [334] And what did they say, I can tell you what they said, because I happen to have a petition here, signed by ... a hundred and four county council tenants out of the hundred and six that we have.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [335] Oh well done.
(PS4C4) [336] And I will read it [reading] ... as farm tenants of Leicestershire county council ... we wish to retain the freedom to make the decision ourselves ... as to whether fox hunting with hounds takes place on our land.
[337] ... We do not consider ... drag hunting to be an alternative. []
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [338] Well done.
(PS4C4) [339] At our last meeting ... we discussed the running of a community centre in the middle of Leicester.
[340] We'll be discussing it this afternoon ... and ... Labour members ... told us ... and no doubt they'll tell us again ... that the users of the centre have a democratic right to be consulted about how it was run ... Don't tenant farmers ... have the right to be consulted? ...
[341] Where are their democratic rights ... Is this the new, I quote, the new era of democratic rights about which was talking yesterday?
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [342] One man, one vote.
(PS4C4) [343] Chairman.
[344] This is ... a vindictive and intolerant motion ... it sets an unfortunate precedent ... and in this debate about freedom we should support the rights of our tenants to choose.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [clapping]
(PS4C4) [345] Have we a seconder.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [346] Served by [...]
(PS4C4) [347] Right, at present I have fifteen speakers, plus ... the two seconders who have reserved the, their right.
[348] We start off with Mr .
Willmott (PS4CB) [349] Thank you ... Chairman.
[350] I ... rise to support the motion moved in Mr name and I have always been ... opposed to fox hunting full stop.
[351] Hunting and all cruel sports which are totally ... anachronistic in ... present day society.
[352] But I wish to relate to the council a particular episode, which I hope ... will convey something to those people who are perhaps still wavering ... erm, and whilst we all have principle stands on issues ... it behoves us as members ... to consider ... the views of our constituents and the sorts of things that take place ... in our wards.
[353] And I ... remind this council of something I said a few years ago ... of an incident, incident concerning the Atherstone hunt ... in my ward ... where the hounds attacked ... the dogs ... of, a couple of dogs of a constituent of mine ... in his back garden ... totally uncontrolled, they were running amuck ... right across land in Ellistown this is ... nothing the hunt could do ... nothing the hunt tried to do ... they were too busy off ... still dashing ahead ... chasing the fox or what they thought was a fox.
[354] ... Meanwhile the owner ... the person who lived a small terraced property, whose garden backs onto the fields ... tried to get the hounds ... several dozen hounds off these two dogs who were being savaged to death ... and he had a heart attack ... in the process, Chairman ... and was hospitalized for several weeks ... That Chairman ... is the effect of the hunt on one of my ... constituents ... whose job it is ... for me ... to defend ... the rights that I was elected here to defend the rights of my constituents, not to be harassed in this manner.
[355] ... Of course he was released from hospital and he recovered ... and of course we ... we, he, we protested ... to the hunt ... and ... they had the audacity to off to offer him ... some fifty pounds compensation, which was a adding insult ... to injury.
[356] ... So that's how I can speak from direct experience.
[357] I'd also like to say that I've received some twenty nine ... representations from constituents in my ward ... all of whom live in my ward ... who are opposed to fox hunting and have asked me today to vote to ban ... fox hunting on our land ... and I've only received two representations from official bodies ... the video and, and a representation from the British Field Sports ... Association ... erm, in favour of fox hunting.
[358] ... So I think it's time that er ... we dragged this county council ... into ... this century ... and not into the century, or the centuries of Mr 's forefathers.
[359] And that we actually op adopted a b a modern ... sensible ... er, reasonable attitude towards all living creatures ... and that we do today ... vote to ban ... fox hunting ... it is anachronistic as I said earlier, it is not necessary ... it actually causes harm, not only does it cause harm to foxes, but at least in one case, which is sufficient for me ... to continue my ... support for the ban ... damage to ... the people ... in my area.
[360] I don't want to rehearse the arguments, I'm sure other members will put all the other arguments about cruelty, about the destruction of land ... and so on.
[361] But I'll finish Chairman, by saying that also I've received complaints from er, a tenant farmer, not one of our tenant farmers, but a p a person who farms ... who actually has problems ... because of the pressure that that farmer is under to allow the hunt ... to go across their land ... because they're surrounded by ... by farmers who do allow them.
[362] They don't wish it to happen, but it becomes an impossibility ... almost for them to stand up to their rights, and Mr talks about rights ... and no rights is in abstract ... and we all know how difficult it is ... then to stand up as a minority when you're surrounded by that majority, but I've had personal representations
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [363] They have the right to choose.
Willmott (PS4CB) [364] From them.
[365] They do not have the right to choose because they, they virtually, the the hunt has always ignored ... their wishes.
[366] They have to buy and sell ... their produce in that community ... and there are restrictions operating on that.
[367] So I think we must ... today ... level out ... the rules on this and we must speak for what is the majority of opinion in this country, by every single opinion poll that's been conducted, and that is Chairman to vote to ban fox hunting on our land.
[368] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [369] Thank you Mr .
[370] Mr .
Taylor (PS4C5) [371] Thank you Chairman.
[372] Er, Mr said this is a debate about personal freedom.
[373] Actually ... it is a debate about personal conscience ... Last night I had one of those phone calls that we've all been getting ... erm the guy on the other end apologised for ... not being one of my constituents erm, I said it probably wasn't his fault.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Taylor (PS4C5) [374] He went on to said he wanted to talk about the hunting debate, erm, it occurred to me to wonder why they couldn't find anyone in Stonygate in favour of hunting, I mean perhaps there aren't any people in Stonygate in favour of hunting.
[375] I certainly have not received any communication ... from any individual in my ward ... in favour of hunting.
[376] I've received a number against.
[377] He asked me whether I was a country person ... I asked what the qualifications were ... he said country born and bred, well ... I was born in Liverpool ... spent my childhood and early adolescence in rural Nottinghamshire, moved to Highfields, emigrated to the West Indies ... and now live in sub rural Blavey so I don't know whether I qualify as a country person or not, but I'd like to bet ... that I've milked more cows by hand than he has ... if that's any qualification.
[378] The conversation ranged widely through ... wildlife management, the history of the landscape and of hunting ... and he was on very shaky ground there I can tell you ... control of pests, he likened a farmer ... killing a rat with a dog, to the whole panoply of fox hunting.
[379] ... As this conversation continued over an extended period, I was waiting to go out to dinner, erm it became apparent that he hadn't understood my position ... it was apparent again, outside earlier today, that people do not understand the position that people like me take.
[380] I tried to make it clear at an early stage ... my petition is a simple, straightforward one ... not involved with wildlife management, ... history or anything else like that, I simply believe that killing animals for fun is morally wrong.
[381] ... Last Saturday night Channel four show showed Sex, lies and videotape ... well, we got the lies and the video tape, I'd like to know what happened to the sex.
[382] People keep writing letters to the Mercury saying ... how can we afford to spend time and money debating this, well they can afford the time and the money employing out of work newsreaders to produce videos and writers and photographers to produce their glossy magazines, their glossy leaflets ... I didn't need the R S P C A or the League ... to tell me that er, the fox photo, this fox photo was a fake, I mean that's obvious to anybody ... I didn't need them to tell me that the video was suspect, that too is obvious.
[383] Perhaps the most interesting thing about this video tape is the involvement of loony ... er, who's espoused every cause known to human kind.
[384] ... Whether they had any merit or not.
[385] ... Most recent of course, is euthanasia ... it doesn't draw the line at killing foxes ... I had this terrible vision in the early hours this morning, ... of Ron closing all our elderly persons' homes, pushing all the old people out onto the street and the [...] hunt with at its head hunting them down the countryside.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Taylor (PS4C5) [386] Look, it's alright to have a bit of fun with this, but the matter is deadly serious ... and I use the word deadly ... advisedly.
[387] ... What it comes down to is ... do we, or do we not approve of killing animals for fun ... do we approve of allowing a pack of dogs to hunt an animal to its death.
[388] ... If the answer's no we do not approve ... then it's up to us, the onus is on us to do whatever we can, wherever we have any control to prevent it happening.
[389] Let us today ... do what our consciences demand and vote to stop this cruelty in just one small corner of this county.
(PS4C4) [390] Mr
Bury (PS4CA) [391] Thank you Chair.
[392] I will be voting for the motion and I will be voting against the amendment.
[393] ... I'd like to start before I explain that, just to refer to a few comments ... that Mr made.
[394] Mr made a comment about ... Moats and Highfield.
[395] ... I find this a little strange since he was quite happy to support us ... when my colleague and I said that there was a greater good to be considered and that people had issues that had to be raised in that area above and beyond ... the local community.
[396] So we did suggest and I did believe your party to support ... erm, a process where we did consult with local people but we also took other factors into consideration.
[397] So I hope today you will take wider factors into consideration as well.
[398] The other one, the other one that I find interesting is I hope Mr will take his comments back to John , because John 's quite happy, I applaud him for once, it's about the only thing I do applaud John for, ... erm, but John 's quite happy to turn round to Norway and say forget your centuries old traditions of killing whales.
[399] Killing whales is not a thing that you should go round doing ... and ... and yet John 's quite happy to do that and I support John in in that approach.
[400] ... I'd like to address the reasons why I will be voting for this motion today.
[401] ... It's often put that hunting ... is ... good for the countryside ... that it's about controlling foxes ... the scientific evidence rather puts that to pay ... the scientific evidence certainly indicates that fox hunting makes very little difference to control of foxes in the countryside and there is some evidence to suggest that fox hunting actually encourages more foxes to breed and that we end up with more foxes, so it seems to be self defeating in that respect.
[402] There is of course the argument about the maintenance of the countryside and that the countryside only looks the way it does, because of the fox hunting.
[403] I think there are a lot of other factors that affect the countryside as we all well know.
[404] The way we farm.
[405] The nature of erm, subsidies from Europe and all others, other factors.
[406] I think this argument's about the benefit of the countryside is somewhat debatable ... to say the least ... And these arguments that are put about why we shouldn't ban fox hunts because of all the benefits and the tradition ... are exactly the same arguments that were put about otters and about badgers ... and about other ... sports that we have, that we no longer consider satisfactory ... and have opposed.
[407] From my point of view, one of the most powerful arguments that needs to be addressed is the argument about individual freedom ... and this is always important to me ... about, if you're going to take an action that limits somebody's freedom, you damn well have to have a good reason for it.
[408] ... There is no legislation to ban fox hunting yet.
[409] ... I'm quite sure that it will not be long before we see ... that happen.
[410] What we do have ... and have had for a long time in this country is an acceptance within our law and an acceptance within our definitions of freedom that there are responsibilities with freedom ... and those responsibilities in this particular case, we have long accepted the argument in this country, maybe not as much as ... erm, well more in fact than some of our colleagues abroad and maybe they could learn from us from this, but it is not acceptable ... to have the freedom to be unnecessarily cruel ... and in fox hunting we have a sport that is unnecessarily cruel, there are ways in which you can deal with rogue foxes, there are ways in which you can actually ensure that the fox community does not destroy the whole, er farming countryside.
[411] But fox hunting doesn't address that.
[412] Fox hunting ... falls purely and simply on the side of unnecessary cruelty.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [413] Freedom, because there is not the freedom here.
[414] I might suggest the other point, now I actually represent a city ward so I'm sure I'll hear the baying of the hounds that say why am I getting up and speaking.
[415] Well actually ... people in my area do have a concern about this, also though ... I was brought up ... in my teens at least within a rural area ... and I know full well ... that to hold certain views ... even those of the majority within rural areas, are not necessarily easily expressed ... and I have today been told of yet another example ... of this being the case.
[416] Where somebody goes to a public meeting ... and doesn't say
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [417] Near time.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [418] anything but just listens ... and what happens, what happens to that, the vets ... that person's husband's livelihood is threatened, why are they threatened?
[419] ... They are threatened because the hunt turns round and uses its power over its tenants to force people to withdraw their, their.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [420] Time.
[421] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [422] Thank you.
[423] When.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [clapping]
(PS4C4) [424] I, I said near time, I advising people it's nearly time, when it is time they will most certainly know and emphatically it's time.
[425] So when the first warning, it's near time.
[426] Thank you.
[427] Next speaker Mr .
Setchfield (PS4C6) [428] Thank you Chairman.
[429] Erm, I want to ... er support er the amendment ... moved by er, erm, Mr and er ... erm I want to oppose the motion ... erm ... since people are ... tending to describe their, their background ... in respect of fox hunting.
[430] ... May I say that er, I've lived for ... nearly thirty years ... er, in Oakham ... which is in the er, in the centre of er fox hunting country.
[431] ... I've er, thank you, I've never seen a fox hunt ... erm ... I've er ... I think once ... er, once ... I got along to Cutts Close where the Boxing Day meet occurs ... and I can well accept that this Boxing Day meet ... draws a larger crowd of people from Oakham than any other activity through the year.
[432] So ... I don't speak really as a committed fox hunt or anti fox hunter ... er ... I speak erm, [sigh] ... after a consideration of the matter ... er that ... that what have at issue here ... is er, the, the right of the tenant.
[433] ... [clears throat] If a man is paying his rent to his landlord he surely has the right to use er the land he is paying for ... and ... in the, in that matter of using it, surely is included the, the sporting right.
[434] ... erm.
[435] ... Hunting, let me remind those on the other side here, is still a lawful activity ... it's no good saying, ah, well Parliament's gonna pass an act against it soon.
[436] ... It may well pass an act against it soon, it may well be that a lot of people from over there will get elected and you'll get your bill, but then again it may not.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [437] Yes, yes
Setchfield (PS4C6) [438] Surely, in this country we have to obey the laws that are there, not the laws that are going some day to be passed.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [439] [...] Sunday trading
Setchfield (PS4C6) [440] Tenants have, let me, let's stick with the motion shall we.
[441] The tenant ... has surely a right to carry out this lawful activity.
[442] ... Drag hunting's been mentioned from the tenant's point of view ... er, drag hunting doesn't control the fox and one of the reasons why ... the er, tenant er, allows fox hunting ... is that the, the fox is controlled by it.
[443] It's er, ... surely wishful thinking to assume that ... sweep away fox hunting, they're all gonna go drag hunting and all those jobs'll be saved.
[444] ... That's a fairly tenuous er ... sort of platform to get rid of those er hunting jobs and I'd've thought that er, a party whose leader Mr saw him, was it yesterday?, ... proclaiming the importance of er protecting employment and combating unemployment.
[445] Well surely some of that might filter down to this chamber.
[446] Let's not take chances er unnecessarily ... with the right, er wi with the e employment ... er of those in, in the hunting industry as it were.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [447] I don't think er Chairman, this, this county council is, is competent ... to do away with hunting.
[448] That, that I, I say is ... reserved for Parliament.
[449] ... er, ... Can I enter a plea for tolerance, if ... in a democracy it's very easy to get steamed up about things you don't like, things you find disgusting and revolting ... but if everyone is going to come forward, have banned the activity they don't like then we're going to live, it may be a democracy, but it's going to be a narrowed, er and intolerant society in which we live.
[450] ... Finally er, Chairman.
[451] ... My history books told me about those wicked aristocrats of the nineteenth century, they used their position as landlords ... to force their tenants ... to, to vote in a certain way, to force their tenants in other words to take up a particular position on a matter of controversy.
(PS4C4) [452] Near time.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [453] I'm interested, thank you, I'm interested to notice that this nineteenth century attitude is being repeated now by er, our friends over there in the Labour party, erm and I must say, that really confirm what I've always thought that a lot of their attitudes and their mental furniture do in fact belong to that century.
[454] Er, Chairman I'd like to er, erm, oppose the motion and support the amendment.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [455] Here, here. [clapping]
(PS4C4) [456] Mr
Beale (PS4C7) [457] Thank you Chair.
[458] I would like to support the motion put ... in the name of Mr and I would like to speak against the amendment.
[459] ... I've heard ... what's Mr has to say.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [460] It was good.
Beale (PS4C7) [461] Yes, very good.
[462] ... You may think it's a fun having a blood game on your hand, you may think that ... your class used to also enjoy slavery two hundred years ago.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [463] [laugh] Here, here, [clapping]
Beale (PS4C7) [464] Listen, listen ... so you may have a right to defend at any cost which you think is privileged society ... the fact of the matter is ... people out there ... I received twenty seven letters in support against the fox hunting ... I did not receive a single letter ... asking me to support the fox hunting.
[465] Always against fox hunting, why is that?
[466] And it wasn't even from my constituency it was widely from the Leicestershire ... and coming back to our, our friend there ... Doctor er , I don't know what was the name there ... when he mentioned about ... what's the name?
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Beale (PS4C7) [467] It it's er really put me off the track there, I'm sorry I.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [468] You're losing time.
Beale (PS4C7) [469] I was coming back to ... the fox hunting here, when it's mentioned [cough] sorry about that Chair.
[470] Men ,men , mentioned here by our friend, that Leicestershire has got no business to discuss about fox hunting, we are not elusive, there are other county councils who have banned fox hunting on their land, so do not make ... this as a sacrosanct and ... or something that Leicestershire are doing, they are not doing first, there are so many other county councils in this country and for your information, I was listening to radio four few days ago, even in Pakistan, a third world country, is banning hunting in their country, we should be ashamed of ourselves here to discuss, I agree with Councillor when the discussion start and he said ... move for the ward, because the logical thing was to move for the wards rather than discuss, if we all believe that this is ... horrible, acrimonious and abhorrent in today's day and age, as the slavery was abhorred two hundred years ago.
[471] So I move that we support the motion and speak against amendment.
[472] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [473] Mr
Beale (PS4C8) [474] Thank you er [...] .
[475] Can I first of all congratulate my colleague Graham, Graham on his measured speech, he's certainly given us many things to, to think about and things that should be investigated.
[476] Can I also say really I agree with Martin ... when he said ... erm, and has been saying for at least six months ... that surely we have more important things to, to talk about than, than this ... and I'm sorry for Martin that he had to erm, give in really and put this ... I was the movement of the amendment in January ninety two ... erm, ... which confirmed that the rights of tenants and old occupiers of land in county council ownership to ... er allow or stop fox hunting over land in their care.
[477] That was successful there ... er, er on that occasion ... and er of course I hope it, it will be successful again this afternoon.
[478] At that time, we, we received a petition from the tenants ... erm very much along the lines of the one that erm ... erm, er Mr has read out, at that time there was a petition from a hundred and eight county council tenants ... and one hundred and five of them in fact signed it and they, they asked for it to be allowed to keep the erm ... to have the freedom to decide whether or not hunting takes place.
[479] I think erm ... it is worth saying Chairman, it hasn't been mentioned yet, er that in fact we're talking about the ... the tenant farmers and their livelihood.
[480] Most of the tenant farmers i in this county I believe are dairy farmers ... and in fact they have their life savings tied up in their stock.
[481] ... They, they know what they have to do to protect that stock, to protect their life's interests and they, and they know they don't need to be told really by any officer here who are not in that ... not, not in that game, what they have to do ... that's what they're asking us to do and they certainly asked us to do that ... on the erm, on the tour of county farms that we had only, only a few weeks ago.
[482] I think it's also worth just bearing in mind that we're talking about ... only one percent ... of the erm ... of the farmed land ... i in this county, we're not talking about banning hunting in in er in Leicestershire, ... we're talking about what we're saying on one percent ... there are tens of thousand of fields ... in in this county ... nothing can change overnight, even if this er motion goes through because the tenants will still have the rights ... to decide, it's only when you actually start getting to new tenancy agreements that you will be in a position if you wish, ... to start to change things and therefore ... I suppose at the end of erm, at the end of five years you might have a hundred or two hundred fields on which this ban will apply ... but you will still have tens of thousand of fields on which the, the hunt will still be, the hunts in this county will still be free to, erm, to operate.
[483] I think we have to try and keep this in in proportion, we are really into a ... we are really into a gesture here ... an important gesture possibly, but nothing is going to change overnight and in fact very little will happen erm, for years, for years to come.
[484] ... I, I, do not understand Chairman that reading this motion, I've been trying to think about it, how on earth this is going to be ... monitored.
[485] How on earth are you going to ... how on earth are you going to put a ... a sign on certain fields that the hunt shall not pass?
[486] Are you going to say ... hunters will be prosecuted or something?
[487] ... Or are you going to electrify the, these fields?
[488] ... Are you going to have mounted policemen following the hunt round to ensure that they only steer their course along certain ways?
[489] ... Are you going to have stationary policemen guarding fields to ensure that only the fox can enter and not the, and not the hounds?
[490] ... Are you going to have countywide monitoring?
[491] ... Are we going to have ... er, erm, are we going to have some kind of reporting system, so that if a hunt actually enters erm, one of our fields, we're going to start denouncing tenants and have them hauled up in front of a disciplinary committee?.
[492] There are all kinds of questions that this matter raises in my mind which ... haven't been addressed.
[493] ... I only repeat what I said last time Chairman that if the, that if people do not understand the management of the countryside, that they leave it well alone.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [494] Here, here.
(PS4C4) [495] Mr .
Beale (PS4C8) [496] Thank you Mr Chairman.
[497] In all probability not a single fox will live or die as a consequence of any vote we take this afternoon.
[498] As Mr pointed out in outline, ... our county estate ... of some eight thousand acres of which only three quarters or roughly six thousand acres is suitable for hunting, is less than one percent of the county's acreage of six hundred and fifty thousand.
[499] If hunting were banned on all of that it would only have a small marginal effect ... but we can as Mr said only ban hunting on land we both own and control, land in hand, that actually totals a hundred and fifty eight acres, slightly smaller than Victoria Park ... but that includes road, bridleways, land with no access, S S S Is, Sites of Special Scientific Interest, land awaiting disposal ... the land capable of being hunted and in hand totals fifty two acres ... about as much of Victoria Park as I can see from my front window.
[500] If you have the country parks and already there is no hunting on those parts open to the public ... there's just about another hundred acres, that's the Victoria Park or thereabouts in total.
[501] ... But that's not the end of it ... the Director of Property has very kindly plotted where this land is ... and I will show you the plan, the yellow spots are the land in hand.
[502] If the map of Leicestershire were a face it would have a few small pimples on its chin and they would take fifty years to come to a head.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Beale (PS4C8) [503] If you draw a line from Loughborough down the A six, through the city of Leicester and on to Market Harborough ... to the east of that line, in that part of the county where most of the hunting takes place, there is one small piece of land, less than one acre, somewhere near Thorpe Satchfield which we actually control.
[504] ... As I said, it would take fifty years before any decision we reach here, even made an impression on the one percent of land we do own.
[505] So, those who do not support hunting will do nothing practical to protect foxes, if they vote for this motion today ... in that respect it is and I suggest the people who move it know that it is, nothing but sanctimonious twaddle.
[506] ... They would be voting to divert attention from the one place where the merits or otherwise of fox hunting should be decided and considered ... amongst M Ps, you will note amongst MPs not by government, this is a matter for a free vote of conscience.
[507] About the only decent argument I've heard on this, I have to say that because it was my daughter who advanced it, about the only decent argument I have heard is the one about badger baiting ... where she said to me ... but badger baiting is not allowed on your land and that is the point precisely that Mr made, it is not allowed because that is the law of the land and that is where decisions about ... the permission or otherwise of fox hunting should be made.
[508] This is an issue of individual conscience of M Ps.
[509] ... Whatever is happening elsewhere ... there is not today, there is no one man one, one man one vote here.
[510] We can all watch for the Labour block vote at the end of this debate ... as a matter of principle, I could never vote in support of the Labour whip.
[511] ... So this debate is not about saving foxes, it will achieve nothing for animal welfare ... it is not about the merits or otherwise of fox hunting, from which it diverts attention, it is about the county council seeking to make hollow gestures against their tenants' rights.
[512] ... Gestures which are not within the normal scope of the private landlord, gestures of a political kind that could be a dangerous precedence for other political ... and possibly improper objectives in the future.
[513] That is why I will support the amendment and if that fails
(PS4C4) [514] Near time.
Beale (PS4C8) [515] I shall play no further part in this debate ... which should not be taking place.
[516] It can have no practical effect ... and will only divert attention from where it should be pressed by those who feel strongly about it.
[517] I do hope Mr Chairman that those members who oppose fox hunting will feel that they should do the same.
(PS4C4) [518] Thank you.
[519] Mr .
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [520] Thank you Chair.
[521] Erm ... first of all I would like to make the point that er ... it's typical of our friends over this side to arrange an ethic dimension when they were er opposing their amendment, it confuses the issue, it is racist and shouldn't occur.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [522] As a Labour councillor of a rural part of Leicestershire, a very beautiful po part of rural Leicestershire ... erm ... I've taken a straw poll amongst my farming friends ... and er when I talk about fox hunting ... they er ... roll and shrug their shoulders, there's no problem and if fox hunting is er ... part of the culling process, they don't have a problem.
[523] They don't have a problem at all it doesn't seem to ... er be part of their daily lives ... er, that said I do have a farmer of my acquaintance, when I say my acquaintance he happens to be my son-in-law.
[524] He er, is a sheep farmer ... and er, two or three years ago the Atherstone passed through his land and er ... ran amuck amongst his flock and he lost actually three in lamb ewes who drowned in a local river.
[525] ... At the same time the hunt passed further on and his wife, my daughter, ... er had two horses which bolted in a field and leapt the farm gate and er, took off and were caught two miles away.
[526] That's the other side of fox hunting, which I think we don't hear.
[527] When they complained to the hunt ... er, the Master brought er a leg of pork round, not a leg of lamb I might add, a leg of pork ... to er, appease them ... er ... one other point, ooh yeah, there was, is one other point actually, when my daughter challenged the hunt ... she was appalled by the arrogance ... of these pink coated ... hooray Henrys ... who totally ignored her plight ... and er just carried on with whatever they wished to do.
[528] One other point Mr Chair, if I could crave your indulgence ... you will er, I think you all know that Leicester City Football Club are playing this evening at Middlesbrough.
(PS4C4) [529] I hope you'll soon be done.
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [530] and
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [531] that, that, as a result of that we could be, Leicester City could be at the top of the first division, I know the Chairman follows the Philbert Street Foxes, I would hope that this chamber will support the Leicestershire foxes when it's time to take our vote.
(PS4C4) [532] Thank you.
[533] Mr .
(PS4C4) [534] Er, Mr Chairman, I'd like to make some observations.
[535] ... I'd like to make the observations because I'm of the opinion that most members came into this ... chamber this afternoon with their minds completely and utterly made ... up ... and there is very little that we can do in this chamber ... this afternoon to change people's minds.
[536] ... So they are observations ... and it is my feeling that this motion has taken on ... significantly more importance ... than its content ... or indeed its effect.
[537] ... I only wish ... and I mean this very sincerely ... I only wish we could spend as much time ... and as often as is spent discussing fox hunting ... on the county's homeless, on abused children, on the handicapped, on the increasing crime and on unemployment ... and I only wish that the media and the public and even members of this council would take as much notice of that as they do about this debate on fox hunting.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [538] I am also concerned that after this debate there will be no winners ... not even the fox, for it will be killed ... it will be killed in some way or another ... and the feelings that are left between the two differing sides ... will harbour grudges and resentment for many months to come ... and I'd like to also ... bearing in mind the comments that were made by Councillor ... ask how committed ... the people who have proposed this mo motion are against barbaric sport.
[539] ... I regard barbaric sport, not only perhaps as fox hunting but also such things as boxing, where two people, two individuals ... do their best to hit the life out of the other and it is watched by thousands of people.
[540] Now the Labour party control the city council, may I say this, that if your feelings are against barbaric sport as much as that, why don't you use your contr , your controlling power on the city council ... and then ban boxing in all the city establishments, then you will show me that you mean what you are saying and that you are not just using the present position of this council for a political measure and political gain ... and I'd like to also ask what this has cost the council ... what this has cost ... could be thousands.
[541] The very meeting itself is thousands of pounds, the time we have spent on it is thousands of pounds.
[542] Many times in this council when we've been discussing more important points, when we've been discussing the needs of people who have real needs, we have not been able to have our priority ... we have not been able to have our priority because we could not afford it.
[543] ... Can we afford not only the debate today ... but can we afford it in another eighteen months?
[544] I don't think so ... I believe ... that the hunting fraternity is not blameless ... and indeed the, all their arguments are not quite correct in every sense ... but I firmly believe ... that there are more important matters for this council to to debate and spend its time and money on.
[545] Thank you.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [clapping]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [546] Chairman, the last speech was ... really explaining what I want to get over ... the fact that so many people want to talk on the issue and to complicate the issue.
[547] The debate on fox hunting has become unnecessarily complex ... and that can only suit the pro hunters because the basic objections to hunting are obscured.
[548] The more complicated you make the issues, the more the basic objections become obscured.
[549] The fact is that any so called sport which involves the exhaustion, distress and eventual death of an animal has got to be obscene in the eyes of any human being.
[550] The county council has not got the power to ban fox hunting ... in total it can only ban it on the land which it owns or controls ... and that's what that motion seeks to do today.
[551] ... On the one hand we have the hunting fraternity ... saying that because they rarely catch and kill foxes, some say a two to three percent efficiency rate, er that it's not cruel ... yet on the other hand, they say that it's the most efficient and humane way to control the fox population.
[552] They can't have it both ways.
[553] ... I urge members, Chairman, not to hide behind this shabby amendment but to vote according to their consciences and their beliefs and to vote according to the views of eighty percent of the population that we represent and I urge other members to be as brief.
(PS4C4) [554] Mrs
Setchfield (PS4C6) [555] Thank you Chairman.
[556] Shabby amendment, come off it
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [557] Really shabby amendment, agree?
Setchfield (PS4C6) [558] No
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [559] Really shabby [...]
(PS4C4) [560] Will you let the lady speak please, you've had your turn.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...] [laugh]
(PS4C4) [561] Mrs would you like to speak.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [562] Thank you Chairman.
[563] Once again we meet to debate and vote on this highly emotive subject and it has always almost, it has already been apparent that it is very emotional.
[564] ... Barely eighteen months ago after the last time, what are we doing?
[565] ... I see my job as a county councillor as one of running the county council so that it delivers services to the people cost effectively and efficiently.
[566] ... Not telling some of the people in Leicestershire how to run their lives.
[567] ... Once again we see the Labour group in their true colours.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [568] Yes ... red.
[569] ... They are now the largest party in county hall but instead of, try
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...] [clapping]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [570] It's no good congratulating yourself until you've actually achieved something ... primarily, you are ... address
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [571] Chairman, instead of primarily addressing the issues of overspending on the education budget ... and the future of the elderly persons' homes and also the securing of a secure unit ... these are pushed into second place when the Labour group can see the opportunity of headline grabbing ... and satisfying their overriding need to tell everyone how to live.
[572] ... The country dwellers are saying leave us alone to run our own lives, after all when it comes to funding they are left to run their own lives anyway.
[573] Witness a paltry hundred thousand pounds for a new village hall, compared with the one million pounds on the Highfields Community Centre.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [574] Here, here.
Setchfield (PS4C6) [575] I hate hunting.
[576] I hate angling ... just because the fish doesn't scream it doesn't mean the hook didn't hurt when it was inserted and then taken out when the fish is thrown back into the water because it isn't big enough.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [577] People in the know say that the animal kingdom is cruel.
[578] But would, should we compound the issue by being cruel to the animal kingdom?
[579] ... But what I hate above all ... is this constant sanctimonious attitude of the socialists ... that they think they know best and their continuous craving to create a nanny state.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Setchfield (PS4C6) [580] I cannot vote ... for the banning of fox hunting on county council land ... as I see this as another attempt to limit freedom of choice.
[581] ... The county council tenant must be left to manage his business and land as he sees fit and this includes his individual conscious decision as to whether to allow fox hunting across his land.
[582] ... Chairman, I support Mr 's amendment and finally I would like to say that there are foxes alive and well in suburban Bristol in my parent's garden.
[583] Thank you Chairman.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [584] Mr .
Willmott (PS4CB) [585] Chairman, erm, as I understand it this afternoon is, is a free vote ... and I, for that reason end there, I hope that persuade any waverers ... er one way, erm, at the moment we've got agreements with tenants and it's up to them to decide what to do with their land.
[586] We don't inter interfere with that and I don't think we should either.
[587] ... Those arrangements or agreements with, with us are within the law and that ... they're between ... consenting adults, I don't know what else they're gonna think of banning.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Willmott (PS4CB) [588] Erm, it's a matter of choice ... a free choice within the present laws of this country ... er, even more important perhaps than that, that it really is up to the hunts ... to convince those farmers that the, that the farmers want them.
[589] ... I do ask any of you that are wavering to support the amendment which leaves the tenants with the right to manage their holdings, how they like and not to interfere with those rights.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [590] Here, here.
Joranpucher (PS4C9) [591] I will observe, Chairman, that there are reasonable and honourable and relatively well meaning people ... who truly believe that they have a natural right to hunt down foxes with dogs indeed to call the dogs hounds ... and believe that nobody has the right to interfere with their pleasures ... er,i in press they would no doubt speak of the right of free born Englishmen to do what they like ... but I'd like them to consider Chairman, ... views ... of what it is right and proper for human beings to do have changed, as readers of John 's diaries will recall, barely three hundred years ago, he saw a woman being burned to death er in London for murdering her husband ... and people watched ... and no doubt thought that it was the right of free born Englishmen to enjoy the spectacle.
[592] Not many lives [...] ago ... there were public hangings in this country and people certainly thought it was their right to watch and enjoy in fact, they even paid for seats to see public hangings, if they could afford to ... and as Mr has pointed out, er it 's not long ago ... er that bear baiting and badger baiting and cock fighting were seen as right and proper and no doubt spoken of as rights of free born Englishmen.
[593] Now, they would be thought obscene ... public perception has changed ... and understood that animals are sentient beings ... and that ... we demean our humanity ... if we ... are cruel to them or permit cruelty.
[594] I can't believe ... knowing er some of the people who do hunt, that their motive is actually ... that they want to see a fox torn to pieces.
[595] I believe the motive is in fact the enjoyment of riding a good horse fast over open country ... and I can understand that.
[596] ... They don't have to hunt foxes to do that ... the motion, the main motion not the amendment suggests drag hunting ... er they could, there there my, I think it means proper drag hunting not one ... er to previously er l l laid out er objectives ... er they could race each other, they can have treasure hunts, er ... there are plenty of ways in which they could enjoy riding.
[597] If their motive actually is ... er to enjoy seeing a fox torn to pieces er then I suggest to them er that is unbearable cruel ... there are of course objections to er this motion and to its further extension the banning of fox hunting altogether.
[598] We are told that foxes are vermin and it is necessary to hunt them down.
[599] Mr Chairman, if ... decent people find it necessary er to kill animals they believe be vermin ... they don't dress up in red coats and call them pink and er charge er, er, er, about er drinking st stirrup cups and tooting horns, er they go out and kill the vermin, it's a necessary job that has to be done and of course, er there are many ways in which foxes could be killed without cruelty ... if it is necessary to kill them.
[600] As a matter of fact, the hunt is a very ineffectual way ... of controlling foxes, er they record the number they kill and it's very, very few, a tiny percentage of the number of foxes there are in the countryside ... clever foxes er, as indeed I think Mrs mentioned, live in towns nowadays ... er, but there are still quite a lot in the countryside fortunately and they will survive ... er, though zoologists tell us er that er by instinct er they see that their numbers are controlled.
[601] Another objection is that jobs will be lost and certainly that would be a serious objection but it's a speechless one, of course, people who can afford it will still ride ... and will still employ the same ... people who are now hunt servants ... er to look after their horses and themselves and those who can't afford horses will continue no doubt to enjoy the spectacle ... er, that argument doesn't hold water ... and the other objection of course er is that er it would mean the hounds were killed, but since I understand er hunting people kill their hounds anyway when they get too old to keep up, er I think er ... we can dismiss that argument and leave it to them ... er to see that the hounds are decently dealt with.
[602] ... Mr , main argument of course er was er wholly spacious er with that proposed in the main motion would not stop any activities which are the proper aim of the agriculture act.
[603] ... [cough] It's true I think er as Mr said at some length ... er that er this measure would not prevent hunting in in most of the area in which it it takes place, through plenty of it happens of course well to the West of the A six ... er perhaps it might even get out there from time to time but our duty clearly is to see er that the right thing is done in the territory which is our responsibility and our other responsibility is surely to set an example of decent humanity.
[604] ... I invite er Mr and his supporters to get out of the age of Dickens and into the twentieth century.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [605] [laugh] Well done.
(PS4C4) [606] Mr
Howard (PS4CC) [607] Yes, thank you Chair.
[608] er, erm, speaking in favour of the motion against the amendment, quite strongly against the amendment because I don't believe it moves that debate any further and the debate, as a number of speakers have said, will go on beyond this chamber, Chair.
[609] I hope
(PS4C4) [610] I am not a chair, this is the chair, I'm the Chairman please.
Howard (PS4CC) [611] My apology Chairman.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [clapping]
Howard (PS4CC) [612] My apology, your prerogative.
[613] Chairman, the motion before us today if passed, will act as a lever a lever against the weight which is rolling inextricably forwards.
[614] Parliament will debate this issue and I'm quite sure as a number of people are, that Parliament will vote in favour of a ban.
[615] ... Can I, for the benefit of members opposite who, who always seem to believe that people on this side of the chamber are townies and don't know anything about anything other than street lighting ... for the benefit of ... members opposite and for the public gallery outside, can I say that in my younger days, a million years ago, I rode with hunt.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [616] Ooh, ooh.
Howard (PS4CC) [617] I followed on foot, by car and by horse, I enjoyed it.
[618] ... But like a number of other people before me ... I turned ... and I turned in response to totally unnecessary violence.
[619] Like speakers before me this afternoon Chairman, I object to barbarism.
[620] ... I object to the attitude that we have a right to kill to dispose of.
[621] ... The argument has been made clearly and repeatedly that fox ... fox hunting with hounds is not effective.
[622] ... Farmers themselves will say there are better ways of controlling fox population.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [623] Rubbish.
Howard (PS4CC) [624] It might be rubbish, try talking to a farmer occasionally.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Howard (PS4CC) [625] Should you have declared an interest Mr ?
[626] ... Chairman, we are debating a motion which will ... we are debating a motion this afternoon Chairman which will ban fox hunting on land that we control.
[627] The object of the exercise is to move the debate forward to another place where another group of individuals will also have a free vote and it's quite rightly been said.
[628] I used to be a hunt supporter, I used to be a hunt follower ... I gave up because I object to an attitude of a society of people that life is disposable ... having seen wounded fox hounds ... and that is the proper term ... having seen wounded fox hounds despatched with a revolver ... because they've got a broken leg ... having charged full pelt across a public road and hit a motor car coming the other way and fortunately not injured the occupants of the motor car ... having seen the damage that a pack of hounds in full cry can do to land that they are not entitled to be upon ... because fox hounds can't read.
[629] They don't know which side of the road they're supposed to be, all they know is they are bred and trained to chase.
[630] ... Having seen the damage that a pack of hounds will do to domestic pets ... it far outweighs in my mind Chairman, any damage that a fox can do, that a fox hound can stop them doing.
[631] There are methods available to control foxes.
[632] ... The age old argument about the damage that a fox does in a hen coup is clearly un unfounded
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Howard (PS4CC) [633] A farmer who allows a fox to get into his hen coup deserves everything he gets.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Howard (PS4CC) [634] Chairman as a former supporter of fox hounds I have to say I am no longer a supporter of fox hounds, I would see the law of this land used to ban hunting with hounds and I support the motion.
[635] Thank you Chair.
(PS4C4) [636] Mr Bernard
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [637] First of all I'm surprised at the outburst that was given to us by Mr I would regard as my er yahabeebee and sadiki if you wish er, but he mentioned in fact the er, what used to be barbaric ac , barbaric er practice in er Pakistan.
[638] I wish he could use his Saudi influences to prevent the barbaric practice of decapitation of human beings which takes place every Friday in the square at Riyadh in Saudi Arabia.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [639] Now the other thing I would say, I support in fact Mr amendment ... and I oppose the motion.
[640] ... Destruction of vermin on county council owned farms is within the remit of the tenant farmer.
[641] Also I express surprise at the Labour leader's volte face a short while ago in the press ... he reported that he had more important matters to think about, or discuss insofar as fox [...] fox hunting was concerned or words to that effect.
[642] ... To its enthusiasts hunting and especially fox hunting ... is more than a sport ... it is a national institution enjoyed equally by all countrymen and I emphasis all countrymen.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [643] Institutions enjoyed equally by all countrymen, I again emphasise ... that in the hunting field social distinctions do not exist ... and those who follow houn hounds start equals ... receiving consideration exclusively through their own ... merits.
[644] ... However, what is the lynchpin as I see it, of the debate today ... is the deprivation of civil liberties ... as proposed by the Labour group.
[645] All be it a tenant, ... whether or no a tenant farmer must have the privilege of deciding who is invited onto his farm.
[646] ... Also ... for that matter, a tenant hand, a householder ... has the rights ... to invite who he wishes into his own house, this one sided dictatorial attitude of the Labour group to determine who can, who cannot enter his home is ... er contrary to my philosophy anyway Chairman.
[647] Thank you.
(PS4C4) [648] Mr
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [649] Unlike Mr I have always found fox hunting distasteful, I have never participated in it, I have never followed it ... and I don't think that I I ever want to ... and er, I have I am not convinced by either economic or the [...] put forward in its favour.
[650] I shall nevertheless vote against the motion ... and I shall vote for the amendment although as much as I wished it had happened or, ... or erm ... a different proposal to Mr because I don't think it helps your argument when you call your opponents [...] instead of arguing face and er unlike Mr I actually do believe its in subsidiarity and I think ... we should accept Leicester and Leicester only and what the Leicester hunt will do should be decided here in Leicester, not in Westminster, er any more than the composition of our offices should be, should be decided in Brussels ... and I believe in subsidiarity.
[651] The reason I shall vote against the motion and for the amendment couldn't have been put more succinctly than it was by Mr , I think Mr made the most pertinent remark that has been made in the debate today, when in opposition to what ... Mr said about ... individual freedom he said ... this is a matter of personal ... conscience.
[652] This is a matter of personal conscience ... and what every member ... in the council chamber today must be aware of, is that there is a vociferous and committed group of people ... we know that because we've all had a great deal of ... communication from them ... and interestingly enough I have ... and most of the communication I've had has been in favour so victory, people who write must be extremely perceptive in, with er ... marketing the [...] that's not the point, we all know that there is a committed and vociferous group of people whose consciences do not lead them to the same conclusions as Mr 's conscience ... and the issue really is, do we in a ... liberal and democratic society ... have the right ... to impose our consciences on those of other people who live in the community and quite clearly and quite determinedly take a different view.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [653] That's the issue.
[654] ... Now ... I believe that you test the liberal democracy, not by the ease with which majorities ... get their way ... but on the extent to which ... you accommodate the views of committed minorities ... and we've lived so long with majority rule, masquerading as democracy, that we've forgotten that that is more akin to dictatorship than anything else.
[655] ... So for that reason I do not believe that I ... feeling strongly as I do ... should im impose my views on others.
[656] This issue comes up time and again for example there is an equally divided community in Britain, a divided position ... on matters like abortion.
[657] There are some people who say abortion is murder, it should be ... not allowed
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [658] that, that there are others equally [...] we say that we [...] women to determine what happens to their own bodies and their destiny is for them, I respect that view too but in those circumstances you don't resolve problems by ... the majority whatever it happens to be ... determining what the minority will do.
[659] ... You in fact, leave the matter open ... so that each of us as individuals do what our personal consciences tell us.
[660] ... I would never hunt, I will also not demand that anybody else hunts ... and I don't think other people should say to me ... what I should and what I should not do ... and I think that's the issue.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [661] Mrs
Beale (PS4C8) [662] Thank you Chairman.
[663] Erm, I would like to say at the start.
[664] I don't hunt.
[665] That makes a lot of horses in Leicestershire very happy
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh] [clapping]
Beale (PS4C8) [666] What I would say Chairman is that I will defend the right of the tenant farmers to make their own minds up, just as much as I will defend the rights of council house tenants to say what goes on in their houses.
[667] It is the very same thing ... erm ... could I say that ... two people have written to me, two of my constituents and I do agree that ... that they have a point.
[668] They are asking that I should support the ban on fox hunting.
[669] One is a Mr Fox and the other one's a Mrs Fox, the cards [laughing] are here if you'd like to see them [] .
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Beale (PS4C8) [670] I also Chairman have the easy answer to the control of pests.
[671] Don't vote Labour at the next election.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh] [clapping]
(PS4C4) [672] Right, we've come to the end of the speakers, we now have ... we now have the.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
(PS4C4) [673] Wait a minute I'm coming to that.
[674] We now have the right of reply in the er second reserved remarks of Mr er Mayor er Mrs and then finally Mr .
[675] So will you like to come in now Mr .
Beale (PS4C7) [676] Not a lot to say Mr Chairman, I think it's all been said one way or the other.
[677] But a few comments which seem to be apposite erm, we don't want to kill animals with cruelty ... do we not?
[678] What about the Halal meat, in this county where three years ago we had a meeting and they decided that animals that were slaughtered without being stunned ... with sheer terror, who are allowed to bleed to death because this is what a particular group believed in and we did it.
[679] ... Er, Mr brought slavery into it, but no one had more slaves than India ... and the Moguls ... and what about suttee where widows were burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands and still leap and still the system was des er was stopped by the English ... Just a moment the door was opened by Mr talking about slavery ... we don't shut it ... on
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Beale (PS4C7) [680] harems and eunuchs and all sorts of things.
[681] I also remember Mr at a previous meeting told us we have no right ... to pontificate on Moat Centre because we didn't live there
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Beale (PS4C7) [682] but you've got every right to pontificate on the on the hunting even though you don't live there ... er, Mr I dunno, barbarism, is this, is this for the Labour a free vote.
[683] I don't think the Labour'd know a free vote if it bit him on the leg.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh]
Beale (PS4C7) [684] I accept the Liberal's is and so's the Conservative, but I'd be interested to know whether anyone allows a free vote ever in the Liberal party.
[685] ... Mr ... when he proposed this er amendment ... said precisely what it was.
[686] We are not talking about the merits and de-merits of fox hunting ... we are not talking whether they die slowly or fast or what should be done.
[687] We are talking here about the rights of the tenant farmers to use the land which they have from you ... and what do you suggest that it be done?
[688] ... At the moment the tenant has the right to ban any fox hunting from his f er er land if he wants to.
[689] That of course will go ... and what's more there's going to be some drag hunting on his land ... of which he will not be consulted ... because if you had to negotiate with organisations for controlled access to its land for the use of drag hunting.
[690] I presume a committee here will decide and sit as to which land shall have dag, drag hunting ... and the er the land the tenant will have no rights in that at all and if you're thinking you can control horses that are taking part in a drag hunt any more than you can control horses taking part in a fox hunt, you've got to have another think.
[691] You'll still have the same trouble.
[692] ... You are taking rights away and you are giving them no consultation at all.
[693] This says quite clearly what Mr moves.
[694] There's one person, group of people not mentioned in his amendment ... in his proposition and that is the tenant farmers.
[695] Can he remember Moat Centre?
[696] Can you remember we had a judicial review?
[697] He went there and back and do nothing to the people bol er er involved, being consulted ... and we've had that going on for two years ... no consultation here has taken place with the people who it affects and there's nothing in your motion to say it will.
[698] I think this ought to be thrown out ... not necessarily on the rights or wrongs of fox hunting but on a procedural thing ... that you've brought about where a dictatorial attitude is brought about by the Labour party that have the right apparently to say exactly what'll happen on someone else's land.
[699] Now if you want to do this in a proper way, then you do it in a proper way.
[700] I don't mind if you write to all the tenants and say ... please don't have foxes on your land, we don't like it.
[701] That's alright.
[702] ... But you're not right for you t start passing laws, which any case you can't adhere to until you have new er er tenancy, you can't enforce them.
[703] I don't know ... whether it makes any difference for the price you will get in the land, for the land, from a tenant, if you restrict his rights to use it.
[704] Don't forget that in his ... tenancy agreement, he has a duty to control pests, which includes foxes.
[705] ... You put that in his deed ... but the way that most of them do it through foxing ... through, through er hunting, you're taking away from them.
[706] This is a whole of a mish-mash, I think we ought to go back to what we did in nineteen ninety two, its the twenty ninth of January and to confer the rights of tenants and other occupiers of land ... to allow or stop fox hunting or any other hunting ... over land in their care and least trust some people instead of this business of we know best.
[707] This is not about democracy, this is dictatorship, your trying to practice over a minority of people in this county.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [708] Here, here [clapping]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [709] [...] please.
[710] Er, the debate this after er this afternoon has centred on adult views of fox hunting.
[711] Well I'd like to say that it's not only adults who have an interest in this subject and have been watching what the county council is going to do about it.
[712] At the weekend I received a letter and a petition from a young girl called Frances aged nine years old and it brought it home to me that it isn't an adult centred er erm issue, that it's one for everybody who lives in Leicestershire.
[713] Unfortunately it was received too late to ... go through the formal council procedure, but I do hope that you allow me to hand it to the council secretary later who it is addressed to.
[714] The letter is short and I would like to read it.
[715] It starts [reading] Dear county secretary.
[716] I am writing to you on my views of fox hunting.
[717] I was against this sport all along, but it is only now that I have read the page in the Leicester Mercury that I feel bold enough to speak out to you.
[718] Sport I agree, can be played, but I don't call fox hunting or cub hunting a sport.
[719] It is an inhuman, heartless massacre ... a murder, an unasked for and undeserved murder, a murder of innocent, lively, living, intelligent foxes.
[720] We have a fox that lives near us and I have spent many a night and a morning watching it frolicking and jumping about ... and it breaks my heart to think that many of its kind are suffering death at its worst.
[721] Imagine if you were a vixen scared and frightened, seeing her cubs destroyed.
[722] Many suffer this way yet some people don't care.
[723] Some people like and enjoy it.
[724] There are jobs around that don't involve animals.
[725] Now I talk fox hunting.
[726] Think it and dream it.
[727] In my mind I won't rest till I know that I have done something, no matter how small to bring this ban closer to a stop.
[728] I look forward to hearing your opinion on this matter.
[729] Signed Frances, aged nine. []
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [730] Nine
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [731] And this child.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [732] That's right and that's a credit to the education system of Leicestershire.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [733] Here, here [laugh] [clapping]
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [734] And Frances has also collected a petition ... of sixty four children at her school which I will also hand over to the county secretary.
[735] I think it's very clear that its fox hunting should be banned in Leicestershire.
[736] I support the motion of Councillor and Councillor .
[737] Thank you Chair.
(PS4C4) [738] Er, before I call Mr can I ... compliment the council on the way that this debate has gone.
[739] A lot of people anticipated a lot of ill feel , well ... a lot of ill feeling being expressed.
[740] Thank you for not doing that.
[741] Thank you for the complimentary way you've acted.
[742] Mr .
Taylor (PS4C5) [743] That's stumped my reply.
Unknown speaker (JNBPSUNK) [laugh] [...]
Taylor (PS4C5) [744] Now I, I won't, I won't go for this vote because at the end of the day I I don't think it'd be er er productive, it'd be counterproductive ... erm, I do hope ... that you around the chamber tonight, do look inside and say ... look if you're fed up with it coming to the council ... Mr whatever your name is, I forget, the new guy ... er, it will only come back next year.
[745] Get rid of it now.
[746] Vote for our motion and go for higher places.
(PS4C4) [747] Mr
Beale (PS4C8) [748] Er, I I do apologise but erm ... I've never known a fox yet ... drop a cattle, a stock, er something that big, when, when you said farmers and their cattle, their d mostly dairy farmers and all the rest of it ... I've never seen a fox do that.
[749] In actual fact I've got a friend and I go potholing with him, we meet, he's a Kendall farmer, he's a a sheep farmer ... and er, we meet and he says [...] you know what I've got a problem with ... on my land, not foxes ... dogs and walkers that haven't got them on the leads ... and crows at lambing time cos they peck their eyes out ... and things of that calibre, he says yes, I'll tell you what I'll bet you I've had animals taken by foxes ... he, he says I probably have, he said but I've not had this kind of unindeighted killing as.