Annual general meeting. Sample containing about 5258 words speech recorded in business context

8 speakers recorded by respondent number C558

PS4ES X u (No name, age unknown, no further information given) unspecified
JNHPS000 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JNHPS001 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JNHPS002 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JNHPS003 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JNHPS004 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JNHPSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
JNHPSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 119401 recorded on 1989-11-13. LocationGreater London: Central London ( Centrepoint ) Activity: meeting

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (JNHPSUNK) [1] Good morning erm, oh, it does work, it booms.
[2] At least everyone can hear, right?
[3] Good morning then, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this annual general meeting of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations.
[4] My first, er, but sad duty is simply to say that Sir Kenneth , our President, had hoped to be here, but he's had er, an operation and er, he is not really quite well enough, so I was asked as a Vice-President, whether I would stand in for him, at the weekend, and er I shall do my best, and erm, I'm glad to have to opportunity of doing one or two things, but we'll come to those in due time.
[5] Er, I should also re , remind you so my brief informs me, of the no smoking rule, which was adopted at last year's er, A G M, and which means there's no smoking er, in this room at any rate, and certainly not during the meeting.
[6] Now, erm, I think that er, we er, should first, er, seek to adopt the minutes of the last meeting which I hope you have all seen and studied with due care and attention, and er, I should like to ask first whether there are any amendments which anyone would wish to put forward, to those minutes?
[7] And if not I will move from the Chair, the adoption of the minutes of last year's A G M. Those in favour of that?
[8] ... And those against?
[9] Carried, nemine contradicente.
[10] That wasn't bad for early in the morning?
Unknown speaker (JNHPSUNK) [laugh]
(PS4ES) [11] Erm, good, now then we come to er, well perhaps I should ask first whether anyone wishes to raise any questions arising out of those er, minutes?
[12] ... Please.
Unknown speaker (JNHPSUNK) [13] Earmarking round the U K [...] yes?
[14] I think it was resolution six on disabled people, er, resolution eight, sorry.
[15] The sentence reads [reading] , the Council instructs the executive committee, to take whatever steps it considers necessary to ensure that this Council shall employ at least underlined, the minimum legally required number of disabled people.
[16] [] I couldn't read a reference in the Annual Report to a review of the this matter, or an agreement that the Council had actually taken this on board, and it was operating.
[17] I'm hoping to hear that that is the case.
(PS4ES) [18] Simon to er, reply to that point, thank you.
(JNHPS000) [19] I hope people at the back can hear, erm, we obviously took up action on the resolution passed last year, in two or three different ways.
[20] Firstly, erm, we undertook a survey of our own membership er, in order to see what sort of action people were taking themselves, er, about disablement issues, and especially about the employment of disabled people within their own organisation.
[21] Erm, we had I think in fairness, a fairly small response to that, and the executive had a discussion recently about how to take the matter forward further.
[22] We included in that discussion at the executive what N C V O's own position was and how it would seek to improve own practice.
[23] It was agreed at, I think the last executive committee, that as a follow-up to that survey, and to take on board er, N C V O's own practice, a small working group was going to be established of people from disability organisations, those which are both disabled-led organisations, and others, to enable us to take that forward over the next year.
[24] So action has been taken, both in terms of our membership and N C V O for itself.
(PS4ES) [25] Thank you.
[26] Does that erm, answer your question?
Unknown speaker (JNHPSUNK) [27] yes, that's perfect.
(PS4ES) [28] Good, any other questions arising out of last year's minutes?
[29] ... Alright, now we come to the erm, first resolution, erm, but before I invite Alan Morgan, to er, er, er, propose this resolution let me just say, it will of course be the last occasion, I've never seen such a remarkable er, demonstration of the interest which we all have in the future of Alan .
[30] You are surrounded by the latest edition of the N C V O News, so you know that this is the last occasion.
[31] I shall have another word to say about him, you're not getting off as lightly as that Alan, er, but erm, I, I think that erm, what I should now do, is to invite him, as our Chairman over the year in question, to er, move the adoption of the Annual Report.
(JNHPS001) [32] Mr. Chairman, nineteen eighty nine has been a significant year for the voluntary sector, and we have witnessed some important developments, including the publication of the White Paper, Charities, a Framework for the Future.
[33] The announcement of the efficiency scrutiny of government funding of the voluntary sector, legislative changes in local government, and Housing Bill, are also likely to change the relationship between voluntary organisations and local authorities.
[34] Also the government's recent announcement on Community Care will give voluntary organisations new responsibilities in this important area.
[35] There have been significant changes in Brit , British society over the past ten years.
[36] Whereas a decade ago, voluntary organisations was perceived largely as an adjunct to the state, now we are increasingly seen as equal and independent partners, working alongside the public and private sectors.
[37] Their importance in the economy still needs to be given recognition.
[38] We hope that two initiatives by government this year, will help to change that.
[39] The first is the White Paper on charity law, which we believe combines the flexibility of the present system of regulation with a set of controls designed to increase public confidence in charitable giving.
[40] The second is the scrutiny review of voluntary sector funding, which we hope will encourage the government to use their funding as a strategic resource, to provide a stable back-drop for other forms of fund raising, to assign a proper status to voluntary sector funding and to devise more coherent arrangements for its ad , administration.
[41] We are confident these reforms will contribute to the recognition of the voluntary sector, not only as a third force, but as a sector in its own right.
[42] At the same time N C V O has been active in addressing voluntary organisations own ability to meet the challenges of a changing world.
[43] Among the initiatives which we have undertaken this year, is the establishment of a working party under the Chairmanship of Lord Nathan, to make recommendations on developing and maintaining high standards of effectiveness and efficiency within the sector.
[44] Matters under consideration include the role and training of trustees, fundraising, management education, public relations and financial accountability.
[45] It must however, be emphasised that these matters are not an end in themselves, but a means of enabling voluntary organisations to achieve their aims and objectives effectively, and I understand that that working party report will be published in February, and we all await it very much.
[46] Voluntary organisations' relationship with government is but one aspect.
[47] It is equally important that voluntary organisations develop an interface with the private sector.
[48] To enable us to do this, N C V O in May, launched a corporate affiliation scheme to enhance the understanding of in , industry about the voluntary sector, and vice versa.
[49] To promote partnership between companies and voluntary organisations.
[50] Our corporate affiliation scheme which will provide a tailor-made service to companies wishing to develop their links with the voluntary sector, has already attracted more than twenty leading companies into membership.
[51] N C V O has the voice of the voluntary sector in England, plays a full part in shaping the development of our society alongside government, the corporate sector, and others.
[52] Views of N C V O are based upon policy analysis and development work, with it members, and the wider national and local voluntary sector.
[53] Meetings for our members have been held on both of these issues, and in response to the scrutiny review, we circulated our membership with our detailed submission to the government to inform their own responses.
[54] Through N C V O's constructive dialogue with government and Parliament, through the Parliamentary Panel on Charity Law, chaired by Tim Boswell, M P, and serviced by N C V O, voluntary organisations have been kept closely in touch with developments on Charity Law.
[55] When the White Paper appeared in May there was much to welcome, but not a lot to surprise.
[56] In response to N C V O's growing and varied membership, the executive committee have agreed to changes in the way that the organisation works with its members on policy issues, which has helped break down barriers between different interests, as organis , as organisations now meet around generic issues, and issues of concern.
[57] A good example of this has been the work on broadcasting and the voluntary sector, which N C V O has embarked upon this year, in response to rapid changes in the broadcasting field, and the government White Paper, Broadcasting in the Nineties, Quality Choice and Competition.
[58] A range of organisations including Age Concern, the Community Radio Association, Community Service Volunteers and the Volunteers Centre U K, are now working together with N C V O in the broadcasting consortium, which aims to maintain and develop standards of quality in broadcasting, and promote relationships between broadcasters and voluntary organisations.
[59] We have tried to respond to increasing demands from what is now a growing membership.
[60] In the spring of nineteen eighty-nine, a number of voluntary organisations involved in running telephone help-lines, came to us about B T's plans to introduce compulsory itemised billing, for all customers over the next few years.
[61] Help-lines were very concerned about the effect of that possible breach of confidentiality could have on their services, and the vulnerable people they assist.
[62] We responded swiftly co-ordinating a report outl , outlining the possible effects of itemised billing.
[63] Through case studies in th , entitled Breach of Confidence, the ensuing widespread publicity and pressure at B T's, A M in July, from N C V O has caused B T to think again.
[64] I think a good example of N C V O helping voluntary organisations to help others.
[65] This has been another busy year in Parliament, with major legislation affecting the voluntary sector, including the Local Government and Housing Bill and water and electricity privatisation.
[66] On electricity privatisation, N V C O played an important role in bringing together voluntary organisations representing consumers of the service with environmental organisations.
[67] N C V O works to improve the effectiveness of voluntary organisations at all levels by providing support through advice, training, and consultancies, on very wide variety of issues, and problems.
[68] This includes advice on management, financial management, new technology, legal, personnel and other issues.
[69] Let me give you a few examples of the way in which our departments work.
[70] For many organisations, the first port of call is the legal department, which this year has continued to receive a range of enquiries on charity formation, interpretation of constitutions, company law, trading activities, and the contracting out of services, amongst others.
[71] During this year, the legal department has had up to three hundred active cases in hand at any one time, and this shows no sign of slowing down.
[72] Our management unit has played a key role in the development of efficient and effective management within the sector.
[73] Over this year, the unit has built good links with the Open Universities, and others developing management resources.
[74] It is working to ensure that management training is relevant to the sector's real needs and is more widely available.
[75] Advice through workshops, training and consultancies is a cost effective means of taking N C V O's expertise to those who need it most.
[76] An example of this is the Local Development Unit's short courses programme which organised over one hundred courses last year, through local centres and local trainers.
[77] We all know and we all experience that voluntary organisations are changing and are having to change.
[78] We're having to become in many ways increasingly professional in a competitive world.
[79] The increasing impact of this greater professionalism particularly on salaries for instance has led to a consultancy being provided by N C V O's Personnel Unit, on appropriate levels of pay in one organisation.
[80] Each week in addition to the many requests for advice N C V O receives, hundreds of information enquiries about the work of N C V O, about the work of its specialised units, and the work of the voluntary sector as a whole.
[81] Our information and intelligent unit receives an average of two thousand letters and over four thousand phone calls each year, as well as countless visitors to the library, many from overseas.
[82] The enquiries have been from those in government, both central and local, researchers as well as students, and schoolchildren.
[83] Our specialist units also receive many requests for information, and our newest project, WasteWatch has been no exception.
[84] The awakening of interest in green issues has meant that WasteWatch in its second year of operation, has seen a dramatic increase in enquiries on waste recycling.
[85] Many of those enquiries coming from schoolchildren, which prompted WasteWatch to develop an information pack for use in schools, to ensure that future generations are less wasteful of the world's resources.
[86] This year, we launched a new information bulletin, N C V O News, which our Chairman today said, you're surrounded by, and I'm extremely embarrassed by.
[87] A monthly publication, containing information and articles on the voluntary sector.
[88] Over two thousand organisations receive it, your initial response has been very encouraging, and many people saying within the sector, that it is essential reading.
[89] We try and produce a wealth of information and research both for and about the voluntary sector.
[90] One report which everyone in N C V O and many more besides wouldn't be without, is the Voluntary Agencies Directory, from which N C V O publishing in print, Bedford Square Press puts out.
[91] We try and bring the voluntary sector together to discuss areas of common concern, and a major event in April was training for employment nineteen eighty-nine.
[92] The first national voluntary sector on employment training.
[93] Another issue of concern to many organisations is the government's review of the National Health Service.
[94] The subject again of a conference in April, the N H S and the Voluntary Sector, the Next Forty Years.
[95] The conference enabled voluntary organisations who attended to consider the implications of the review for them and their work.
[96] I happened to chair that conference, and I think I was surprised by the depressing effect that this reform was seen to hold for so many of our membership, particularly the smaller, local voluntary organisations.
[97] The international flavour of our work was much in evidence at the first Johns Hopkins' International Fellow Inthralenthropy Conference held in London in July.
[98] We contributed to the programme of this major event, jointly sponsored by the charities, Aid Foundation, and the Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore.
[99] Now let me for just a few minutes, look forward if that's not too presumptuous for a chair who is moving out.
[100] Over the coming year, we expect to consolidate and develop this work.
[101] Much work will be necessary to help voluntary organisations devise appropriate funding structures, to support and an increasingly central role in service provision, and to respond effectively to the outcome of the government's efficiency scrutiny.
[102] We will be promoting debate on Charity Law issues, and on how voluntary organisations should organise and manage themselves in order to respond to the contract culture, which is being created by changes in the organisation of Community Care, the N H S, the role of local authorities, and other fields.
[103] We also intend to play a full part in the debate around the single European market, and nineteen ninety-two.
[104] As we move towards the next century, voluntary organisations will need to develop further their contribution not only to our national life, but also to the international community.
[105] Against these dramatic changes, we intend to remain at the centre as an effective resource for the voluntary sector, and an important bridge between the sector and others.
[106] Voluntary organisations, speaking on the basis of our wide experience in local communities and in national life, are an influential voice which is respected throughout society.
[107] Ours is a voice which cannot be ignored, but if we are to use our influence to full effect we must both recognise and be capable of using our strengths.
[108] This is where we at N C V O feel we can play a vital role by helping the voluntary sector to recognise this shared interest and above all to act cohesively.
[109] For the last three years, N C V O has been at the centre of the critical debates.
[110] If we build on and enhance that experience we will be in the right position to face the new decade with confidence and vision.
[111] In November nineteen eighty-six, I was elected to succeed Peter Jay as Chairman of N C V O. This year, the call of other duties compel me to step down.
[112] I feel that, a very reluctant decision in many ways, but it is, I can assure you, a realistic one.
[113] I have found the experience of working in the voluntary sector, first of all as Chair of C V S N A, and vice-Chair of N C V O, for I think about five or six years, and finally as Chairman, in many ways on top of all my other work, exhausting.
[114] But in many ways it's been enlightening, exciting, stimulating, and above all enjoyable.
[115] I think you would agree that it would invidious to single out any one person to thank.
[116] There are N C V O members and staff, my fellow honorary officers and executive members, and so many others who have made it such a rewarding time.
[117] Above all I would like to thank the sector for your friendship and warm support, and I have every confidence that Sir Jeffrey, my successor, I assume that resolution two will go through unan , unanimously, will be car , will be able to carry forward with your warm support, the vision I tried to outline for the next year.
[118] Finally Chairman, I formally move that the Annual Report for nineteen eighty-eight eighty-nine, be received and adopted, that the statements of account for eighty eight, eighty nine, be received and adopted, and that Touche Ross and Company be appointed auditors for the ensuing year.
[119] Thank you all very much.
Unknown speaker (JNHPSUNK) [clapping]
(PS4ES) [120] I now call upon Jeffrey Foster, er, honorary treasurer to second that resolution.
(JNHPS002) [121] Thank you.
[122] The accounts that you have for this year, have been rearranged.
[123] They've been rearranged and now comply with the statement of recommended practice on accounting for charities.
[124] I commend this statement to you, those of you who are responsible for the accounts of your organisations, I hope you will also seek to comply with the, the standard, so that the charities of all organisations, the accounts of all charities can be seen clearly, so that er, you can understand the activities of your organisations from the accounts, and so that one charity can better be compared with another charity.
[125] End of commercial though.
[126] The effect on our own accounts is that we now show all the mainstream activities of the Council together, and they are then separated out from the entries for all the other funds, appeals, and trust funds and so on.
[127] This enables us to show clearly the most important features of the accounts which are the volume of the mainstream activity of the Council, and I'm sad to say the deficit that we incur on that mainstream activity.
[128] Last year, I reported to you a deficit of three hundred and thirty thousand.
[129] Over ten percent of the turnov , turnover of the Council, and which was in fact doubled from the size of the deficit from the year before that.
[130] I had hoped this year to be able to report a turn round and some substantial progress towards our target of achieving a nil deficit for the financial year nineteen ninety-one ninety-two.
[131] In fact though, we have merely halted the trend of increasing deficits rather than reversed it, and the deficit for the current year is three hundred and forty four thousand.
[132] The reasons for this deficit are largely associated with the, the trend of pay and price increases outstripping our income, and outstripping our projections of what we would have to spend.
[133] I think the, this is quite well illustrated by the figures on employees, where the numbers employed fell by getting on for ten percent, though our spending on employees remained about the same, partly as a result of pay increases, partly also, as a result of changes in the profile of grades of the staff at the Council, and a movement towards better staff, better paid, and then finally the saving we make each year as turnover of staff occurs, and we don't have to pay salaries during the handover period from one person to another, that saving that has reduced because the turnover of staff has reduced.
[134] I have to say also that the future looks even tougher for us.
[135] The current trend of pay and price increases is more than we had hoped, and it's, it's certainly more than er, than er, the planned increase in our income will cover, and I have to say that the rate of turnover of staff has reduced even further and so we will be spending more on staff for that reason than we had planned.
[136] Nevertheless our target of erm, achieving a nil deficit by nineteen ninety-one ninety-two does remain, and therefore radical action is required to enable the Council to continue to deliver services effectively in the context of continued financial constraint.
[137] And we will therefore need to exercise great judgement and realism in the assumptions we make in planning for the future.
[138] Not only on, on the expenditure and the changes required, but also on planning our response to changes which will happen in the future, because it is unlikely that we will ever be able to forecast everything which will happen to us exactly.
[139] The deficit this year was met from the legacy fund and the appeal fund.
[140] The appeal fund contributed two hundred thousand which is its target for annual income.
[141] The balance was met from the legacy fund.
[142] Overall if you look at the balance sheet, it still appears quite healthy, erm, nevertheless, I must point out that the balance sheet is composed largely of funds with specific purposes, and these specific purposes do not include simply propping up deficits on the mainstream activities.
[143] So we can't use the funds in our balance sheet, simply to carry on the way we are, we have to change.
[144] And we need to use the reserves that we do have in the balance sheet, we need to spend them wisely in order to achieve our objectives, our objectives for change, and we must recognise that they can only be spent once.
[145] Nevertheless I would like to end on, on a brighter note, erm, those of you who are avid students of the accounts will have spotted the contingent liability of twenty eight thousand six hundred and sixty.
[146] Basically we are required to report anything erm, any liability which we know about, which doesn't actually formally have to appear in the main accounts but which could arise in the future.
[147] I'm happy to say that this, this matter which arose from a misunderstanding on the basis of a grant from the European Social Fund.
[148] This matter has now been resolved and no liability exists for the Council.
[149] I therefore second the, the first resolution, that the report and accounts should be adopted and the auditors should be reappointed.
(PS4ES) [150] Thank you erm, Jeffrey.
[151] Now er, before I put the resolution to the vote er, er, I'm sure that all of us would welcome any comments or suggestions or questions that any of you might wish to put to us here.
[152] So, let's have er, anyone who wishes to indicate that?
[153] ... I think in my experience, this is unique.
[154] Erm, don't hold back, ... it's your opportunity.
[155] ... Alright, well then er, with that expression, of what I hope to be confidence, [clears throat] , in erm, the management of our affairs over this last year, erm, let me put the resolution at, as on the paper before you, I won't read it again.
[156] Resolution number one to the meeting, those in favour?
[157] ... Er, those against?
[158] ... That appears to be carried unanimously.
[159] Thank you for that.
[160] Now it would be invidious of me to er, speak at any rate at this juncture, er, on resolution two, that is the appointment of honorary officers, but I understand that Elizabeth Davies er, is ready to propose it.
(JNHPS003) [161] We've just had a remarkable vote of confidence I think, in management but N C V O, like many organisations relies very heavily on the abilities, energy and commitment of its honorary officers.
[162] We have been and are very well served in N V C O. Our President, Sir Kenneth , our vice-presidents, and in particular, the Chair, the Vice-Chairs, and Treasurer, give us a great deal of their time, and I do mean give, as they work for many hours on behalf of N C V O without payment.
[163] I hate to think what effect it would have on our deficit if it included realistic costings of the value of their time.
[164] And we really do appreciate it.
[165] Our two Vice-Chairs, Barbara , and Kay are well known to all of you.
[166] Towers of strength and energy, whose experience and judgement is invaluable to us.
[167] Our Treasurer, Jeffrey Foster, has the sort of job usually described as thankless.
[168] Persuading others to accept the hard financial facts of life is not usually a very popular job, but he does it with great tact and skill, and under his guidance I do believe that our deficit is under control, and that it will be reduced.
[169] We do thank him most sincerely for his work.
[170] I am very glad that all three of these people are willing to stand for office again.
[171] Alan Morgan, our Chair since nineteen eighty-six and active in the organisation for years before, is not standing this year as Chair, for a very happy reason which you all know about from the erm, literature on your seats.
[172] He will be missed although the contribution he has made will remain with us in the present form of N C V O, to which he very greatly contributed.
[173] I'm glad he's agreed to stand as a Vice-President.
[174] A candidate for the first time for the Chair that Alan has left is Sir Jeffrey .
[175] New to N C V O perhaps, but with a wealth of experience in government, industry and the voluntary sector.
[176] He began his career originally as a journalist, working for the B B C and the Financial Times, before he moved into industry.
[177] He has strong interests in education, and management training and much experience of negotiating with government, something that we all need in N C V O. For some years he's been a member of the Council for Voluntary Service Overseas.
[178] I know that all his experience will be called upon in the new role he's ready to undertake on behalf of us all.
[179] We very much appreciate his willingness to join us.
[180] I have great pleasure in proposing the honorary officers for appointment as they are printed on your order paper.
(PS4ES) [181] Thank you and now Colin , er, is er, to second this resolution.
(JNHPS004) [182] Hello, yes, right, thank you.
[183] I can do no more than endorse the statement made by the proposer and would just like to formally second the proposal resolution number two.
[184] Thank you.
(PS4ES) [185] Erm, does any member of the Council wish to make any comment on this resolution before I put it formally to the vote?
[186] ... Very well, I will put it then to you, that er, resolution two as printed on your order paper, should be approved by the Council, those in favour?
[187] ... And those against?
[188] Well that's seems also to be carried unanimously.
[189] And on behalf of all those who have received this support from you, I should like to say thank you.
[190] Now there are two other things I want to er, say at this juncture.
[191] Or rather two other people to speak of.
[192] You will have read what I think to be a very reasoned and properly enthusiastic tribute to Alan by Peter his predecessor in the Chair, in this number of N C V O News, which incidentally I think is er, er, er, a considerable step forward from the various er, experiments, and the like that we have er, conducted over the years.
[193] Alan and I served er, together as er, deputy Chairs, or vice-Chairs or whatever the appropriate words are for several years er, and I erm, well I think I would adopt the words that he used about the experience that he has had in the Chair, to whit, that his companionship and his contribution to our affairs has been stimulating, enlightening and particularly enjoyable.
[194] Erm, I'm very glad that his er, departure from the Chair does not signify any lessening in his commitment to er, our work and activities.
[195] It is a big job, it doesn't just mean changing the colour of your stock, er, and it's difficult to think of erm, er, Alan wearing the purple so to say, but erm, I'm sure he, I went to his consecration in York about two months ago, it was a very moving and er, enjoyable occasion and he's erm, er, now entered upon that inheritance.
[196] [clears throat] I can hardly forebear, I'm sorry for, if it's er, a bad pun, but er, I can hardly forbear to say that it may be that I, that diocese can do with what one might describe as a dash of the Robin Hood's, which I think Alan may er, bring to it.
[197] So Alan you go with our warm thanks and our very best wishes for a future which I know will be as valuable to the church as it will lead to a gap in our ranks which it will be difficult to fill.
[198] Now then erm, if anyone erm, can perhaps achieve that objective, I think it is your, our new Chairman, Jeffrey .
[199] One of the things he, er, did, er, as was remarked erm, by er, Barbara , was erm, to erm, er, be a broadcaster and journalist, many years ago now Jeffrey.
[200] Well I also was er, er, a producer then in the B B C and so he and I had some cheerful encounters at that time, since when he has obviously gone from strength to strength.
[201] I need not bore you with er, a recital of his many accomplishments, I just would single out one additional one, and that is, his sterling work for the Royal Society of Arts, er, its shorter name, erm, of which he has pioneered really, the development of an activity described as industry matters.
[202] Thus to bring to all our attention how much it matters for the encouragement of arts, commerce and trade which er, for manufacturers which is the full title of the Royal Society of Arts.
[203] So we're very lucky indeed, I say without any hesitation whatever, that Jeffrey has been willing to take on this