| PS4G3 | Ag4 | m | (Neville, age 45, solicitor) unspecified |
| PS4G4 | Ag3 | m | (Geoffrey, age 40, unemployed, Client) unspecified |
| JNSPSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| JNSPSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[1] Okay what can we do for you? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[2] Erm ... I don't know where to start to tell you the truth. [3] ... I take it you're the expert on employment law? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[4] I do a fair amount of employment [...] yes. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[5] Well that that is what I'm solely here for. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[6] Mhm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[7] Erm ... I work for a company Limited |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[8] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[9] or or did ... erm ... for the last five and a half six years. [10] Three and a half years ago I was promoted to manager. ... |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[11] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[12] Last September ... erm ... I was accompanied ... by another manager so in effect there's two managers ... running the place. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[13] [noise - traffic] Was he a new er appointment? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[14] I beg your pardon? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[15] Was he a new appointment? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[16] That's right yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[17] [...] he'd worked for before? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[18] Erm ... yeah for a short period of time ... perhaps about two years ago. [19] It was very very short and certainly not in that capacity anyway. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[20] Right. ... |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[21] When he came along ... erm ... was about ... he was more or less asked what terms he wanted and ... said that he was no to show no favouritism. [22] I was given a pay rise because they wanted him as well, you see. [23] Part of that was a company car. [24] Erm ... I'll men I'll mention him by name, it is a Mr . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[25] Mr? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[26] . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[27] How do you spell that? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | [spelling] [] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[28] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[29] [clears throat] Erm ... at this stage for the simple reason that together with the ... erm promotion package, together with the wages package, we was both given a company car. [30] Now ... at this point ... Mr after having his either his third or fourth dri drink drive, [...] just come out of court six month [noise - traffic] [...] had come out of prison after doing a three month stretch ... for drink driving. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[31] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[32] S but ... what they say is part of his managerial status demanded him having a company car ... to which I was given one as well but in effect that then became his wife's because he was still banned for drink driving. [33] ... Yeah? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[34] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[35] You with me so far ? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[36] Yeah go ahead. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[37] ... Erm ... on the ... on the twenty third or thereabouts on the twenty third of March of this year ... [sound of chair squeaking] I myself got stopped for drink driving. [38] It was erm ... close, very close. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[39] Do you know what the reading was? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[40] Erm ... I think it was either forty four or forty six. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[41] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[42] Er ... the blood blood count, because it did go for blood count, the blood count was er ninety three. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[43] Yeah, okay. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[44] Erm ... |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[45] So you got a twelve month ban [noise - traffic] [...] ? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[46] Well [clears throat] I then ... . [47] [...] don't make the appointments you see [...] . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[48] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[49] And I spoke to ... erm who appointed Mr to ... take the case for me. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[50] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[51] As ... as a direct result of it erm ... without [...] anything about it ... erm ... Mr in court ... just wanted to get in and out. [52] He accepted the twelve month ban, fair enough. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[53] I see. |
| Unknown speaker (JNSPSUNK) | [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[54] [noise - traffic] I I got a twelve month ban anyway. [55] Erm ... the managing director ... in front of Mr ... erm ... said to me, It won't affect your wages ... but what we will ask is that you give the company car back until a period of time that your wife passes a test ... in which case ... it can be ... given to your wife as indeed managerial status ... [...] Mr . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[56] ... Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[57] Mm. [58] ... On the seventh of June ... it took this long to get to [...] . [59] On the seventh of June ... I got my statutory twelve months. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[60] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[61] Erm ... on the seventeenth of June ... I was told that there was gonna be a meeting on the eighteenth ... erm to which I would have to appear concerning my drink driving. [62] On the eighteenth of June attended this meeting erm perhaps this [...] on rather than you jotting down [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [cough] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[63] Perhaps [...] enlighten you more. [64] But ... [sound of paper being unfolded] although this says ... [reading] minutes of the meeting [] it's not actually minutes of the meeting. [65] It's just notes taken because after things that appeared on here. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[66] You don't accept them as being accurate? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[67] N no they're quite accurate but the relevant details are missing. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[68] ... Okay let's have a look. [69] What does do? |
| Unknown speaker (JNSPSUNK) | [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[70] aerials and satellites |
| Unknown speaker (JNSPSUNK) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [reading] ... [...] [] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[71] ... Er C T D what does that stand for? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[72] Er that's the managing director's initials. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[73] What's his name? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[74] Er Charles . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[75] ... Does seem a bit ironic that he disapproves of drink driving and then [noise - traffic] [...] prison sentences [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[76] Precisely. |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [noise - traffic] [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[77] Well ... I don't know but it's there's certainly a lot of favouritism there. [78] Erm ... so basically he's still there and they've got rid of me ... making it as an excuse but ... Charles as partner ... is his brother, Nicholas . [79] Now whatever Nick brought up doesn't appear in there as if Nick never spoke. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[80] Wh what did he tell you? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[81] Erm ... it's hard just off hand but h he mentions several several things. [82] What they're saying is that Colin was purely administration. [83] I mean I've never needed a new licence for the last three and a half years but Nicholas ... erm ... prior to this in the countdown ... to me appearing for my drink drive which is in a matter of about ten weeks I believe [clears throat] in the countdown to that, Nick said on several o two occasions anyway while other members of staff were present, Well this is a way of getting rid of him without having to pay him redundancy money. [84] ... and that was in front of witnesses. [85] But all the while I was led to believe by this statement ... another thing is that [cough] ... the day that made the made the appointment for me to appear, sorry are you reading? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[86] No carry on, mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[87] The day that made the appointment to see and Co, Nick ... after coming out of that meeting with Nick , we called in at the office, myself and my wife, and whilst [...] I was tidying some things up because I'd got the remainder of the afternoon off, Charles' wife said to my wife, my wife actually broke down in tears, and she says, What's up? [88] Is ... is it just because of this drink drive? and my wife Lorraine said, Well it is yeah. [89] And she says, Well don't upset yourself about it because worse things has happened than this. [90] Think of Colin and his predicament. [91] Also it may be a godsend to you because as soon as you drive that car becomes yours. [92] Straightforward conversation wife to wife, well ... again she must have been told that by her husband to even mention it. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[93] ... [clears throat] What's his wife's name? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[94] Shirley. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[95] Is she er involved in the company? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[96] Yeah she's erm company secretary I believe. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[97] [cough] When you say that er ... said that this was a way of getting rid of you without paying you redundancy who was present at that ... who overheard him say that? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[98] Erm it was myself, Paul an employee, erm ... a couple of other employees who I believe to be Dave and [...] . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[99] Any of those still with the company? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[100] All three. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[101] ... Do you have a copy of your contract of employment or terms of employment. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[102] No that's another thing. [103] I've never had a contract of employment in the six years that I've been there but erm [door knock] ... less than forty eight hours after all this happened every employee was issued with a contract of employment. [104] Now Paul this is what I've found out since you see, Paul erm said to them, Why suddenly this? and he says, Oh we've actually had them printed for the last two years but we've never had the time to give them out. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[105] ... Mr 's status is identical [...] his abilities are different and it's necessary to have a manager who is mobile [...] . [106] What's the difference between you and Mr ? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[107] Well Mr [...] never been [...] before at least I've done it for the first few years that I was there. [108] Been out in the field done all the ... erm ... [...] and worked my way up to it you see. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[109] This R A F Wittering job that they are referring to [clears throat] S S W F C |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[110] Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[111] Right. [112] Erm ... do they involve you travelling out there on a regular basis? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[113] Well ... on the Wittering job ... [...] he said he wanted somebody there ... you know er myself as manager to oversee the job ... but on the Sheffield Wednesday job, incidentally I'd I got the contract from them both, the Sheffield Wednesday job was done I'd only ever had to visit it once and that was at my request not at anybody else's and either way ... both erm the Wittering and the Sheffield Wednesday er there have been other drivers going. [114] Er I have never had to ... go solely on my own so to speak. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[115] Have you actually gone solo? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[116] Er I've followed them down but the vehicle ... I could have got in another vehicle. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[117] Isn't the argument gonna be that [...] you make sure everything's okay and then you come back again. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[118] I have spent all day there . |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[119] All the lads leave at the exactly the same time that I leave. [120] ... But that's how it's been happening anyway. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[121] Mm [...] a bit more information. [122] Erm can you give me your full name and date of birth. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[123] It's Geoffrey Alan |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[124] Is that G or J ? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[125] G. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[126] ... And date of birth? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[127] And your address at the moment? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[128] street, [...] . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[129] And are you on the telephone there? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[130] . [131] Now after that |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[132] Erm whoa whoa can I have some more information off you please |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[133] I'm sorry |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[134] first. [135] [cough] Er ... what were you originally employed as by the [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[136] Aerial engineer. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[137] ... And three and a half years ago y you were promoted to manager. [138] What's what's your actuals ... title, is it just manager or is it something else? [139] It's in a reference here to something. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[140] Manager. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[141] Internal field manager. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[142] Manager stroke coordinator. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[143] ... What's your pay? [144] Wh what [...] ? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[145] Erm ... two fifty basic |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[146] Per week? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[147] Per week, plus commission. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[148] And what was your average take home? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[149] Erm ... it touched ... it touched twenty grand last year. [150] Or nineteen and a half something like that. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[151] And you got a company car as a benefit as well? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[152] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[153] Was there a pension scheme? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[154] Erm ... yeah, but ... it was there was something that only certain employees [sound of tearing paper] [...] that time [...] the start of the pension like myself, erm ... I have to pay five pound a week after tax for my pension. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[155] It is a contributory scheme? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[156] That's right and they paid some child |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[157] Any other benefits [...] paying erm ... BUPA? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[158] No. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[159] Private health? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[160] No. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[161] Telephone home telephone? [162] Okay. [163] Erm normal hours per week how many hours a week were you working? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[164] Ooh ... erm ... hard to say. [165] That that figure does include overtime erm |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[166] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[167] The basic ... hours are forty two and a half |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[168] [...] [clears throat] And when did they actually terminate the employment did it take effect from the eighteenth of June or what? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[169] No that was that was the Friday and as it says th well I don't know if it says there or not, but they said ... what would happen, they'd think about it over the weekend and they'd contact me the Monday afternoon ... erm ... to make a final decision. [170] The Monday evening they phone me up and said that ... I was to attend another meeting on Tuesday which I believe were the twenty second [...] [sniff] to which they said, We've thought about it and we've decided not to continue your employment. [171] And a formal letter will follow. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[172] Have you ever had any discipline problems at all in the past? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[173] Not that I can remember. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[174] Okay. [tel] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[175] On the Tuesday I went in and they said that a letter would follow ... right ... that was on the ... Tuesday the twenty first something like that, then I never heard nothing from them until ... this came lunchtime post this Monday ... recorded delivery. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[176] Twenty eighth. [177] [reads letter handed to him] ... [sniff] What we're saying here is er if you take an ex gratia payment you are not entitled to apply to the industrial tribunal. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[178] I couldn't understand it because it contradicts itself twice. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[179] Yeah ... saying that they're entitled to dismiss you without notice. [180] [reading] We are going to give you one week's pay in respect of each couple of years of servi , years' service. [] [181] If they've made you redundant that's what they have to do. [182] They have to give you a week's pay for each year ... that you have been employed them a as pay in lieu of notice. [183] That's redundancy as opposed to dismissal. [184] So they're saying this is an ex gratia payment in other words they're offering you that payment as er ... some compensation for the fact that you've losing your job. [185] But it says here should a tribunal require them to pay a basic award for compensation then that payment is on the basis that it's offered and accepted in satisfaction ... er towards those payments. [186] It's very clumsy language but I think what what they're saying is that ... if you go to the tribunal and you get compensation, anything they pay you now is going to have to come off that. [187] Erm but then later on th they're saying that you you're accepting it in full and final settlement. ... [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JNSPSUNK) |
[188] [...] contributing towards |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[189] towards these yeah it's not full and final settlement it's towards these payments. [190] I don't understand this bit [reading] to pay a basic award of compensation following an order [...] [] . [191] A tribunal will either re ... instate you or it will say they have to pay compensation. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[192] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[193] It won't be both. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[194] I I just didn't understand it that's [...] come for the advice for you see. [195] Well [clears throat] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[196] Well you got you got three months from the date ... of termination which you can take as effect from the twenty second of June to make a claim to the industrial tribunal. [197] Erm it's very much what I would term a fifty fifty case. [198] The strongest argument we've got is that has got a driving record worse than yours and he has been taken on despite that record. [199] Erm you are of equal management status your abilities are the same ... erm why should you be differentiated ... from him. [200] Er that's your strongest argument. [201] If he wasn't there then I would say that you you'd be on a sticky wicket, because most terms of employment say that if you er have a driving licence and you lose it then your employment will automatically finish. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[202] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[203] And virtually all contracts of employment where anybody is required to to drive during the course of their work should contain that clause from an employers point of view. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[204] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[205] [sniff] Now you've never had a ... a contract of employment so that goes in favour as well. [206] Erm we're entitled to ask them for er entitled to ask the tribunal to say what terms of employment wou w should have been. [207] Erm the tribunal may well say that one of those clauses should be if you lose your driving licence you lose your job, so it's a fairly dangerous thing to apply to the tribunal to get terms of employment sorted out. [208] The best advice I can give you is simply to go for unfair dismissal on the basis that you've got two managers who do exactly the same job, there's no need for you to go on site, there are other drivers that could get you there, therefore it's not necessary to finish your job simply because you've lost your licence. [209] Erm even if we're wrong in that then they should have looked at alternative positions within the company which didn't require you to drive ... erm ... [...] that's the basic advice at the moment. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[210] Yeah. [211] Th the the other thing erm reference that [clears throat] this other manager has not ... at no occa on no occasion has that car been used for company use. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[212] Right. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[213] Not even as f far as getting him to work in the morning. [214] Some other employee has to go and fetch him in the morning |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[215] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[216] deliver him to work, take him home in the evening. [217] That company ... company car has never been used for company use. [218] ... Then the other argument ... as I can see is that they've ... led me to believe, I don I know you said that [cough] it's automatic twelve month ban, but ... we just accepted that because I was led to believe that my job was safe. [219] In certain circumstances if it is close it has been [sound of ambulance passing on street] [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[220] Sorry say again? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[221] I in certain circumstances if your job's on the line and that [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[222] Only if only if you're a totter |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[223] Erm |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[224] If you've had speeding disqualification er speeding points and you were up for disqualification because you'd totted up twelve points |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[225] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[226] then ... you can argue what's called special hardship. [227] You can't do that when it's a drink driving. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[228] You can't. [229] I see. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[230] It's an automatic twelve months. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[231] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[232] Nothing you can do about that. [233] Has to be a ban. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[234] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[235] So I can't criticize ... the decision of the court on that or ... or the way the solicitors ... dealt with it. [236] I mean twelve months is is the minimum period it could have been more. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[237] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[238] You can't argue hardship on a drink drive. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[239] No. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[240] [clears throat] Right well erm so y at the moment have they paid you up to date? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[241] What they've paid me ... wha what I'm entitled to ... is erm ... obviously my week's wage ... that I've worked, fortnight's holiday pay |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[242] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[243] and then we have what we li call a floating week which is made up of five rest days, you can have them at any time ... yeah to |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[244] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[245] make your third week. [246] Now I've had two of those rest days ... prior to all this so I would be owed a fortnight's holiday pay plus three rest days. [247] What they've sent me is erm ... a week's wage and my three rest days but no holiday pay. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[248] [...] you're not [...] this so called ex gratia payment. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[249] No. [250] I've not contacted them. [251] I mean I suppose I could contact them and say yeah I'll take that. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[252] I think you've got to be careful how you word the letter on that because what I don't want you to do is to say yes okay and then find you're blocked on an industrial tribunal application. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[253] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[254] So what I would suggest is that we reply to to this for you. [255] Puts them on notice that you've been to see a solicitor. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[256] They may withdraw it then. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[257] Yeah they might. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[258] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[259] That's a risk. [260] At the end of the day it's a matter for you. [261] I mean if you want to make sure you've got that in your hand I would simply say to you |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[262] You see |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[263] make sure it's done so that you're not prejudicing your industrial tribunal case by saying that you'll accept the ex gratia payment but you also reserve the right to take legal advice about the termination of your employment. [264] Something along those lines. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[265] Mm. [266] You see er what I'm worried about is that ... erm ... [...] basically I wanted to see you first ... before I even answered it before I phoned them up and say yeah okay or wha what have you. [267] Erm the simple reason is I've been signing on, erm they've suspended my unemployment. [268] I've got a wife and two children. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[269] Yeah. [270] Does your wife work or not? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[271] No. [272] Y y you could say no. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[273] How old are your children? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[274] Er ... four and nine. [275] I've got one I pay maintenance on as well. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[276] And how much are you paying in maintenance? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[277] Well th that's not a court order that's just straight out out of my bank account into her bank account. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[278] What do you pay? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[279] Ten pound a week. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[280] So at the moment with the earning [...] that they paid you up to date two hundred and fifty quid I can't give you reduced advice under the legal aid system at the moment because you're still being paid. [281] As soon as that stops and you've got no income |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[282] Well that was last week. [283] I've had nothing this week. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[284] So you've got no income ... as of today's date. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[285] Er well I don't know. [286] I don't know if I've got that fortnight's holiday pay to come or what. |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [sound of paper being crumpled] [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[287] Have you got any savings at all anywhere. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[288] Er ha ... well I've got a bit in my building society account |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[289] Does th those savings exceed one thousand six hundred and thirty five pounds? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[290] I think there's about two grand in there but |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[291] Mm. [292] I Alright I'll just stop you there. [293] I can't give you reduced cost advice at the moment but it may be that in two or three weeks' time your s situation ... has changed to the extent where I can. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[294] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[295] [...] Now I can advise you in the office under the green form system ... if you are eligible for it because you ... you've got no income coming in and your savings are below one thousand six hundred quid. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[296] Right. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[297] That covers me for office work to negotiate to try and settle this case. [298] It covers me for the preparation work to an industrial tribunal. [299] It will not cover me for the hearing. [300] Legal aid is not available in any form for industrial tribunal hearings ... erm so what I usually say is that we assist the client up to the stage ... where s it means going ... er to the tribunal itself. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[301] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[302] And then if er you want a so solicitor with you on that day we'll have to come to some arrangement with you privately about the costs. |
| Unknown speaker (JNSPSUNK) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[303] But [...] today's date even that doesn't apply because you you're category's above the level at which I can give you advice. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[304] Yeah but that's only because I er I owe a grand in poll tax you see. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[305] Right well as soon as you can come to me and say, I've no longer got that amount |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[306] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[307] we can you sign you up to one of these green forms. [308] I can't do it today. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[309] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[310] Erm [cough] er basically I'm going to h have to boot you out because I've got somebody else waiting for me . |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[311] Right that's fine . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[312] Erm you've got to make a decision what to do. [313] Er erm I wo obviously make sure you keep hold of those cos I'll want copi [...] of those if you want me to do anything more for you. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[314] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[315] Erm I would suggest that if you are going to contact them yourself about this, that you make sure it's done without prejudice. [316] Put it in writing marked, Without prejudice |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[317] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[318] erm to your rights to apply to an industrial tribunal. [319] Erm and then y you know you get your cash and [noise - traffic] [...] three months from ... twenty second of June to do something about it. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[320] Yeah. [321] Right. [322] But ... you would certainly accept it for now then? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[323] Yeah I think you've got a case worth pursuing. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[324] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[325] I don't know how strong it is because as I say, erm most contracts of employment do ... include a provision that if somebody h has a driving licence and loses it and driving is part of their work, even if it's only a minor part of their work, then the employer can ... erm ... dismiss. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[326] Well what they said to me was |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[327] But your advantage is you've got no em contract of employment. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[328] But wh what they said to me was although ... erm ... although it's not a driving is not a major part of [...] and your role was changing and whatever that means |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[329] And you didn't know that did you? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[330] Well plus plus the fact that erm ... it's not that you haven't got one, or it's not that we'd need you to drive ... it's that you're denying us the privilege ... of being able to send you. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[331] Mm. [332] Well there is some argument in that, but, you know they should be looking at alternatives ... somebody to drive you out ... the sites where they [...] , the [...] whole time they would take you there and bring you back. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[333] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[334] It seems to apply doesn't it? |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[335] Plus that other thing that ... was at ... you know that it ... it stated it's a way of getting rid of him without redundancy. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[336] Yeah sure. [337] I mean if you can come up with the witnesses that are prepared to stick their head in the noose and say that. [338] That's going to be your problem because they're all still wor working for the company. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[339] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[340] But if you can get somebody to come along and say that then er erm y your case gets a lot stronger. [341] ... Okay? [342] So I'll leave it with you. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[343] It's just that I I'm finding it ... well I'm not. [344] My wife's getting ... very upset about it, the whole affair and everything like that |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[345] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[346] And er I don't know whether to ... it's it's the money aspect of it because if my ... unemployment's stopped |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[347] Well we'll stop [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[348] I mean |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[349] at eight weeks, say they stop it by erm |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[350] Twenty six |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[351] twenty six, it's [...] these days |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[352] Or up to twenty six anyway . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[353] Er do ... they should give you income support as opposed to unemployment benefit . |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[354] Yeah but even that it's ... it's ridiculously low. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[355] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[356] Erm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[357] In terms of h h what's your objective. [358] Er do you want to go back and work for them, is that the m the main thing so you've got your job back, cos if you claim compensation th the basic ... award is equivalent to redundancy which it sound as though they may well ... pay about of half that to you. [359] Erm that's if you prove your case. [360] You'd get a basic award equivalent to what would happen if you were made redundant. [361] On top of that you get compensation which is a maximum of ten thousand pounds and depends on ... erm ... whether you've got another job, erm ... whether you've contributed towards your own dismissal, and I think th the tribunal would knock something off for that. [362] A at a guess I would think they would probably give you about three to six months' worth of pay ... as compensation, if |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[363] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[364] you proved your case. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[365] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[366] So it's not a vast amount in comparison with having no job. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[367] No no but it goes somewhere near half way I mean |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[368] [...] a question of whether you can go back |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[369] the the reasoning being that ... I've gone into the aspects of ... erm income support and that and ... basically i it's about seventy pound a week to live on . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[370] Yeah, yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[371] Now which is upsetting my wife. [372] But in the mean time my wages I've had last week have been spent |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[373] Mm. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[374] I don't know [...] ... I don't know how long income support's going to be, I don't know how long my next pay packet's gonna be or what have you. [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[375] The sooner you're on income support again I can sign you up to one of these green forms, so I can give you some advice on that. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[376] You can? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[377] Yeah. [378] I can then [...] advise you. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[379] Well I filled all the forms in and that |
| Neville (PS4G3) | [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[380] it's just a matter of delivering [...] . |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[381] Yeah. [382] Your capital at the moment takes you just over so ... you know once your capital's below sixteen hundred quid |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[383] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[384] I can then sign you up to that. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[385] Mm. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[386] It won't cost you for my advice. [387] Well what I'll do is I'll stick it in my diary for a couple of weeks. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[388] Yeah. [389] Would you |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[390] Y |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[391] Would you recommend that [clears throat] I got rid of some of it then by ... paying my poll tax or ... doing something with it or use the money to live off? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[392] [sigh] It's very difficult to advise you isn't it? [393] I d th the natural inclination is to say [laughing] use it t to live off [] because you don't have a problem over the next twenty six weeks. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[394] Mm. [395] ... Mm. [396] And then again ... if they pay me this money ... as an ex gratia payment. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[397] You have to tell the D S S. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[398] Or, I've got to ... get rid of that as well haven't I? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[399] Mm. [400] ... But I think you've got a case which I ... I would say is fifty fifty. [401] It's one ... that we can perhaps put a bit of pressure on if we issue an application for you by getting ACAS involved and seeing whether ACAS can either get you back there or er ... get you a compensation off them. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[402] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[403] So [...] |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[404] they'll be in trouble to start with cos they had no contracts of employment out at that time. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[405] Yeah. [406] So ... what do you want me to do for now then? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[407] Well ... you follow up what you want to do with the company when you've thought about what I've said to you |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[408] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[409] erm ... let me know what you do |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[410] Yeah. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[411] erm and then I can put together |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[412] Contact you within the next fortnight something |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[413] Yeah. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[414] like that? |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[415] Yeah and I'll put together er a tribunal claim for you. [416] Get it to you ... for checking. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[417] Thanks for your help. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[418] Okay. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[419] Okay then. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[420] Right. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) | [...] |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[421] Just let me know what you want to do and ... we'll put it together for you. |
| Geoffrey (PS4G4) |
[422] Okay then. [423] Thanks then. |
| Neville (PS4G3) |
[424] Cheers. |