BNC Text JS7

Herts County Council Environment Committee meeting: debate. Sample containing about 13678 words speech recorded in public context

11 speakers recorded by respondent number C581

PS4HB X m (No name, age unknown, councillor) unspecified
PS4HC X m (Charles, age unknown, councillor) unspecified
JS7PS000 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS001 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS002 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS003 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS004 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS005 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PS006 X u (No name, age unknown) unspecified
JS7PSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
JS7PSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 111201 recorded on 1994-01-11. LocationHertfordshire: Hertford ( Council Chambers ) Activity: debate

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [1] Ladies and gentlemen, chairman er at eighteen minutes to two er my colleagues and I were in interview with the Liberal Democrat er Group er for this so called discussion.
[2] Er we left at er seventeen minutes to two erm having explained that er we have put a very respectable budget on the table er which was prudence as prudence personified er and that was something we felt the other two groups of the [...] Liberal Democrats were the only ones there at the time er besides them [...] do that we'd er I have to say to chairman that er the voted it is now being cobbled together er by the other two groups is eight hundred thousand pounds plus er in excess of the budget which the Conservative Group would want to see and just for the record, it's about the same sum of money that we've been saving on the fire cover in [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [3] [laugh] .
Charles (PS4HC) [4] er which goodness [...] erm, we believe that we are spending substantial sums of money in areas of traffic calming town and parks and [...] and various other areas that have er been er touched upon er we do not think it would be prudent to
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [5] [sneeze] .
Charles (PS4HC) [6] spend over and above what we have already indicated and therefore we oppose the budget that has now been put forward by the other two groups.
(PS4HB) [7] Thank you.
[8] Mr .
(JS7PS002) [9] Yes it would, it would not be properly to, to just make one comment and that is that the next five hundred thousand that the local [...] is therefore two point six million from the reserve fund, that is substainable for two and a half years ... it is not substainable beyond.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [10] [...] County Council Officer [...] .
(PS4HB) [11] Well thank you let's call in [...] er resolution number two that's on the er pre-paid ground.
[12] Can I have those who are in favour please. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [13] [...] twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen.
(PS4HB) [14] And those against?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [15] one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
(PS4HB) [16] And resolution number six, committee request a withdrawal of two point six million from the structural maintenance fund.
[17] All those in favour?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [18] [...] eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, [...] eighteen
(PS4HB) [19] Those against ... er we want to er item number three [...] .
[20] ... Er car boot sales, chairman have been passed.
[21] Thank you chairman.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [22] Er car boot sales chairman have been erm increasing steadily in recent years and er in terms of number and er [...] Hertfordshire are no longer the charitable events.
[23] People going with a few items from their attic.
[24] They've now frequented by an increasing proportion of traders in assumes in many cases a market type of status.
[25] They're part of the changing retail scene which ranges from the modern shopping centres at one end of the spectrum to squat shops, short term let shops and car boot sales at the other, for the other less source of er retailing, source of purchasing from a decreasing number of people erm trade in car boot sales are subject to the same controls as high street traders basically be product safety, erm, but as well as those problems we are increasingly coming across other problems in particularly counterfeit goods, goods like that on sale at car boot sales, quite attractive, wholly illegal and it won't be out for about six or nine months yet.
[26] But normally, but er the, they are [...] for just that sort of product.
[27] Er Trading Standards Officers have been helping the police have made a large number of visits to sales in recent months targetting those where we know or suspect there will be concentration of counterfeiter goods and these stolen items we've been taking and seizing items, we've been making inspections and er we will also be distributing some leaflets to try and advise people of some of the risks and dangers that face them at this sort of event.
[28] The report, for the local authorities [...] reports mentioned in the committee item is an attempt to give me the subject of car boot sales a fairly wide airing.
[29] An airing that had gone
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [30] quite away beyond just trading standards issues to cover for example, things like fund control, matters are concerned with the district council and er environmental issues erm and I am able to anxious to get some views from authorities including the County Council so that it can form a debate and discussion with central government about possible wa , was forward.
[31] There are two specific issues of interest er I would like to refer to, first is [...] resola resolution one, six small one.
[32] It is on the face of it a very simple amendment to a quite a small and in some sense insignificant piece of legislation that isn't [...] , erm I hope members would agree that by changing that piece of legislation to say that if you're a trader you must display who you are and how people can get hold of you if the have a problem about products they buy from you, will not be too burdensome erm in these days of deregulation and so forth but on the other hand would help enforcements considerably and would also enable people to pursue their own remedies where they are dissatisfied with what they bought.
[33] I think generally speaking that would er formalise and er increase the er way in which markets and boot sales operated.
[34] The second point er [...] chairman is that one particular solution adopted by a couple of County Councils the one in particular has been to have a local act requiring registration of car boot sales which gives enforcement officers a chance to know they're going to happen and it also requires display of names and addresses not suggesting it is not entirely suggest that is here but late last night we simply felt we want to talk about the possibility of a framework enabling this legislation which will allow that to happen on national basis oh, as a way of controlling this, this sort of activity.
[35] Erm in conclusion Chairman there's two, two comments are made, we have been receiving a, a number of complaints about car boot sales some unfortunately have been from consumers who've bought things and er have been er unhappy about what they've bought -often on the safety side.
[36] And increasingly complaints from businesses, complaints about unfair competition, erm the second point is that the, the report has been sent to vote upon [...] now, but also to a number of er business and consumer organisations in the county a range of views is being expressed in response, as you'd expect, but in general terms most recognised there are particular trading, trend and pattern [...] which needs to be addressed erm but most have all especially with the er display of this [...] same as registration some form of registration must on the national basis would be erm a, a solution to this support.
[37] Thank you Chairman.
(PS4HB) [38] [...] Miss .
(JS7PS003) [39] I should like to propose that Labour resolution on this issue erm in order to address the problems caused by a car boot sales, we feel that a national scheme is needed requiring resis resu sorry registration in advance of an event by boot sale organisers and registration of individual traders at boot sales.
[40] So [...] could be designed to allow this [...] to make a profit by empting out their attic, without the requirement of registration once the insurers and professional traders was registered.
[41] The registration of traders in secondhand goods could then to keep records then of items bought and sold.
[42] This minimizing the risk of, the risk of stolen property being traded.
[43] Traffic congestion and parking problems caused by car boot sales could be reduced if the police were forewarned thus alleviating the considerable distress suffered by people living near to car boot sales sites.
[44] A registration scheme would allow scope for exchanging information between the the local authority and the police.
[45] Registration of events would also allow local authorities to refuse the use of the unsuitable sites or prevent the abuse of the current laws which allow boot sales on each site for a maximum of fourteen days per year.
[46] As er [...] already mentioned some local authorities have already implemented such schemes by going to the expense of introducing private legislation through parliament.
[47] We would like to see the regulation of car boot sales implemented on a national basis, building on a current good practice.
[48] We cannot see how self regulation schemes could be expected to work as neither car boot sale organisers or the traders involved are part of any coherent organisation.
[49] Combined with the suggested resolution one and including our amendment of the addition of the word enforcement, these strategies would offer much greater protection to the consumer minimizing disturbance to residents and reducing unfair competition and I would like to recommend that these views be communicated to as the views of this county council, thank you.
(PS4HB) [50] Thank you Miss is your resolution for the [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [51] I object er er yes I would like to, I would like to er second the resolutions, this, there is er, there is er a certainly a great deal of concern within the community both those er who live within reach of, of, of, of car boot sale erm er sites in particular the ones that are regular and also the people who attend them and get ripped off, that we need to do something about er bringing er the er, er at to add, add to law into range of, of the people who of, of people who er er of of people who er sell er of people who sell those goods at these at these functions.
[52] Er there's obviously concern about the one off and the er charitable events ... er ha had had er er act actually, actually that I, I, I, I, think some of the comments of, of both Mr and that he and of er of the mover if there if there trans , if there trans , transmitted er er would actually largely deal with those er, er concerned so I'm, I'm very happy to second.
(PS4HB) [53] Mr .
(JS7PS000) [54] Thank you Mr Chairman erm from the Conservative side we would erm be happy to accept the two labour er resolutions erm as, as on the paper as erm I, I would ask that er perhaps with a spirit of co-operation and I think we all agree on this subject.
[55] If members would accept the additional resolution which stands in my name erm which reads this is what we'd copied to all district councils and they would be made aware of the county council's views on the matter.
[56] Chairman erm I know from my own experience elsewhere that er car boot sales are a cause of great concern and I, I won't repeat what various other small local firms have said because I agree with all their comments.
[57] Erm the element of control side of it, is extremely frustrating and have have been hinted at by previous speakers to see what are in effect regular and truly massive retail operations going on without [...] development control, without the development of any kind of highway controls which is a county council matter is fully my argue frustrating.
[58] I would also like to erm ask that erm that we do have everything we can to ensure that where this council has the possibility as erm landowner or property owner or whatever that we prevent or certainly discourage the use of such property for car boot sales and I had in mind sales that are taking place based on erm education property and in the case of Hatfield we were able to persuade the relevant authorities to er cause the car boot sale to cease but that particular car boot sale was causing great damage to the legitimate traders in both the Hatfield market and the Hatfield town centre.
[59] So there's an economic development argument to all of this as well and I do hope er county will be able to co-operate in that respect.
[60] I would ask you to accept the, the additional Conservative erm resolutions.
(PS4HB) [61] Thank you Mr , Mr .
(JS7PS003) [62] Formally second.
(PS4HB) [63] Thank you [...] Miss, Miss .
(JS7PS004) [64] Oh I, I support that, what people have said, I just would like to now say a word though for people that actually run car boot sales.
[65] I mean that they're a valuable source of fund raising in the schools for example, erm and I would not, they are also a valuable source of fund raising people that need to raise money to buy their kids Christmas presents and so on , you know, I mean people, they're not all market traders or people shifting stolen goods at car boot sales.
[66] There are people who are genuinely trying to make money for themselves and their families at car boot sales, so I think, you know, I don't, I wouldn't like to see them stamped on altogether.
[67] I agree that it is useful to know who's actually running the stall in case you you've got knocked off.
[68] Since I've recently had my car radio stolen I'm quite in favour of them not being sold at the car boot sales perhaps somebody would like to returns it to me but erm, the, you know, I'm er you know they do need some restr , some legislation but I wouldn't want them to be legislated out of existence.
[69] The other thing is too that erm perhaps the police could en a bit more vigorously enforce the parking.
[70] If you go to see this football club to watch the football match, you are not allowed to park on the grass verge outside because the police don't let you but if you go to a car boot sale at the football club the next day the cars, the grass verge is littered with cars cos it's Sunday presumably and the police are not allowed to enforce on it so I do think that some of the traffic problems maybe need to be more carefully reinforced to stop this, you know, to stop the dealers you're not going tyo [...] these places but you know I think you do need to, you do need to, to regulate them but please, you know, don't let's push them out altogether.
(PS4HB) [71] Thank you Miss , er Mr
Charles (PS4HC) [72] Chairman I'll try and be brief er I think the problem with the car boot sales is that they have been er hi-jacked commercially er it seems a good idea it's, it's another line another way of disposing of goods whether they're straight goods or whether they're they're er misappropriated goods or whatever.
[73] Er and I think that er that's part of the problem that we have.
[74] I must say erm I, I do wonder whether the district council might be enabled to say unless goods are sold from a car boot this is not a car boot sale er, therefore, we would put a ban on all commercial vans and vehicle entering these sites er that's not being articles described in the er in the [...] er maybe that's something you could look at.
[75] I am concerned and I have mentioned briefly to Mr erm something which was er said to me by a local resident who've read the paper this morning that British Rail are gonna start using their car parks to hold er car boot sales.
[76] Erm this can only exasasberate er an already difficult situation chairman, I do wonder whether the, the people that British Rail are trying to attract to use the service and, and do bear in mind that this County Council recently voted ten thousand pounds in subsidies er to er towards British Rail to enable people to travel on a Sunday.
[77] Now what happens when you go to the station on a Sunday to park your car and find all the spaces are taken up by a car boot, er the whole think is a nonsense and er frankly somebody should tell British Rail so er I wonder if this is Chairman a shot across the bows of er rail privat privatisation and if it is I welcome it.
[78] Erm
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [79] [hiss] .
Charles (PS4HC) [80] and erm, but I I have to say that I, I do believe that we need to address more particularly er the transport a aspects of this and the planning aspects of it which, I think er are tending to get eased out of the er agenda, any way, if I may say er in respect of trading standards and the legal aspects of er the, the er produce that's being sold there.
(PS4HB) [81] Thank you er Mr .
(JS7PS002) [82] I'll be brief chairman er first of all can I say we would accept the chairman, the conservative resolution; turning to Labour resolution number two we would ask that you take [...] on board to grant a [...] er sales run by schools and other legitimate charities.
[83] I don't know if that is acceptable to you, er, if, if that's the case then if we will then except [...] . ...
(PS4HB) [84] Right now we have Mr .
(JS7PS005) [85] Erm thank you Mr Chairman, [clears throat] high up in the Cardiganshire coast near [...] , on the trunk road between [...] and [...] where the population is the sparsest in Wales and certainly a [...] .
[86] There are hundreds of people gathering every Sunday morning for a car boot sale
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [87] [laugh] .
(JS7PS005) [88] they are very very popular indeed
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [89] not with us!
(JS7PS005) [90] of course the same thing happens in Hatfield which is done within about a stones throw literally fifty yards of that field market and town centre and such like and it's very unpopular.
[91] Erm it is a social gathering and whether people get er, er get rooked er, they get done or whether they get a bargain or whatever happens, they, they seem to enjoy it, but nevertheless it's done according to whether you want to make money, the person owning the land wants to make a bit of money, there are a number of entrepeneurs who actually arrange and the middleman who actually goes round booking up the sites and so when you're talking about charity a charity will get it organised for you by an entre , entrepeneur and then there's the er the er the traders themselves, some of whom may be purely independent, some the, some may be obviously dealing with that ta erm that kind of aspect which is not exactly possibly legal.
[92] It's the planning aspect that's difficult, people er, [...] jolly well [clears throat] well people do sell their bodies in the street, people do sing in the street, people make music in the street.
[93] I mean it's it's happened and I was ha I was so interested in the subject that I asked Mr for a copy of the report where it goes back in the history and of course it is the history of trading standards and, and so on.
[94] Nevertheless there ought to be some control somewhere and we're getting back to what I think Richard said was the original idea of some kind of development control that is a popular thing in order to be allowed, people ought to make money for the various charities and so on, we ought to try and prevent er certain unjust practices going on and so on .
[95] So that the social, the social idea in the towns and people can gather in a market place and do what they will without too much trouble, but nevertheless and immediately you try to restrict, we, we run into trouble, but we must protect the people and that's the purpose for the trading standards.
(PS4HB) [96] Thank you Mr .
[97] Mr .
(JS7PS006) [98] Thank you Mr Chairman, I, I've got a certain amount of experience in the subject because we got quite a big one in our village.
[99] In actual fact the er farmer put the planning application in to hold this market every week really refused it outright saying it's a very sensitive area of Green belt and we didn't want two hundred er stalls there every Sunday on the car park coming out of the road and everything else.
[100] He won that actually on appeal because he said he needed to raise the funds for a project he'd got in mind and they allowed him twenty eight days in the first year, he now carries on fourteen days without planning permission every year, but give him credit he does run it very well, er and you cannot fault him, but we in our area do actually issue licences, you cannot have a car boot sale or market stall without a licence and I personally have run the charity markets in er the village high street and got a licence at the cost of a pound.
[101] On that licence you have to indicate when you're going to have erm this market, you have to indicate how many stalls, how many people you expect to attract, the times you're gonna be open and you have to give a months notice.
[102] Therefore if you issue a licence like this the local authorities can check up, market people can god own and make sure it's not getting out of hand and the local police know the sort of traffic to expect and therefore can control [...] .
[103] So if we could use, insist on issuing licences, that would go a long way to sorting some of these of these problems out.
[104] Thank you.
(PS4HB) [105] Thank you, erm before we go to the vote er Mr will you accept that er the third line down from the second resolution er made for the national licensing of all registration scheme will cover the amendment you wanted to put on to the labour resolution.
(JS7PS002) [106] I would actually like to insist on the resolution.
(PS4HB) [107] Miss are you willing to accept the amendment?
(JS7PS004) [108] Could I say that we'd be willing perhaps that the Conservative amendment first of all, and then to turn to the amendment by the Liberal democrats erm I would like to suggest that schools or other charities, not just schools are exempt from any registration charge but will still notify the local authority in, in advance of an event, because events held at schools or by charities still create problems with traffic and parking and congestion
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [109] Here, here.
(JS7PS004) [110] the same way as they any profit making event.
[111] I hope that's acceptable
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [112] Can I say something?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [113] Yes that will go [...]
(PS4HB) [114] So if we organize amendments and resolutions is everyone agreed
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [115] we agreed
(PS4HB) [116] Thank you very much, ... er perhaps [...] now, we'll move on to item four.
[117] [...] tea now?
[118] Thank you.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [119] Yes [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [120] [laugh] .
(PS4HB) [121] Right we'll now go for tea thank you, [...] ... can I call you to order please and make a start on item number four.
[122] ... I hand you over to Mr
(JS7PS004) [123] Thank you Chairman, [...] last environment committee er, you asked for updates on the position of the service, these are the last years I have managed to inspect the reports the service.
[124] And before you, you have that update what I am trying to do is to list all of the recommendations we obtained in respect of the report and they are actually three -one, to three -twenty and then we put paragraph two on each of those recommendations to bring you up to date on what the service is doing.
[125] I don't intend to go through all of theos recommendations hopefully er a fairly [...] time I'll having same questions on them.
[126] I do hope the members will recognise that the service has not be sitting on its laurels er between inspectors' reports but that we have been modelling on one quarterly to er correct any omissions with respect to boundary or to make the necessary improvements in the service erm as, as recommended by the inspect and supported by members.
[127] In paragraph four, page six, we do make a small point about the financial implications er on [...] of course that has been resolved because of er the resolution carried forward in the budget debate and a note there about central training which I could er just, just explain slowly because I have had a number of questions about this.
[128] What that refers to is that we do have a contract with the fire service college and we are satisfied with the resources we are committing to training at the moment and should any more be necessary at any time we will bring that back to members.
[129] I don't at this moment, envisage that the need for any further resources in this area.
[130] Thank you Chairman.
(PS4HB) [131] Thank you, are there any questions?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [132] Mr erm
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [133] Chairman thank you, erm, [...] para three, fourteen, the recommendation there was er, er the cause for some anxiety and concern.
[134] I wonder if the Chief Fire Officer can er add anything further on that.
Charles (PS4HC) [135] Yes sir, the, you'll recall that [...] carrying out this re this particular review to finalise the er fire safety review and members have accepted the recommendations from that in which sought to ignore that although we have an limited number of specialists inspecting officers that we widened the remit of all employees in the Fire and Rescue Service so that all er operational fire fighters carried out some form of inspection, thereby producing a higher work output than before.
[136] We recognised through that review that to train all those people to do the work we would have to use the officers specialist inspectors and therefore those specialist inspectors would be carrying out less inspections during this year because they'd actually be carrying out some training.
[137] Therefore our overall results would be down, there would be a downward trend in that.
[138] We have er found that to be the case there is a downward trend, but I do make the point, and I did make the point to the inspectors notwithstanding that, all of our respecting officers bar those that were doing the training of course do produce a higher work output per individual than most of our peers up and down the country and we have statis statistical evidence to support that.
[139] The inspector was pleased to receive that, noting the fact that we had a, a drop in our work output but expected that, that would go up in the next year or two.
(PS4HB) [140] Mr .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [141] Er Chairman, yes, if I may just make a couple of, of, of, of, of, comments on, on, on the report side, I, I very much welcome the report back which I think has clarified a number of areas in the inspector's report and what the services are actually, actually are doing about this one, I think er overall it's er it, it, it's, it's very, it's very er it's very er very useful to see er what has been done erm I, I, I, I, I've been assured by the Chief Officer er on item, item er, item three one at the top of page two, that the operational plans being devolved to individual sch [...] will not apply to operational activity, they will be er to separate activity within the s er sch station, erm I did raise that because I was concerned about one station saying yes we will attend the fire and another one saying we won't, which obviously is not appropriate er but with that caveat I, I, I, very much welcome the report, I would like to move the proposals sch standing in, in, in, in, in my name that we commend the report as well as er er what's on the officer's erm er, er, er recomen er the re the recommended er resolution and that we send a copy of that, this
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [142] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [143] to her majesty's sch inspector so that er they could be aware of, of, of the action that the service er as has, has, has taken.
[144] I'd like to move that erm er that amendment together with the officer's original er resolution.
(PS4HB) [145] [...] .
(JS7PS003) [146] I take great pleasure in being able to second this amendment.
[147] Here in Hertfordshire we have a fire and rescue service, that we can quite rightly be as proud of as the fire fighters we surveyed are.
[148] I'm particularly please to see the that we've found [...] ways of removing artificial obstacles to the recruitment of whole time and retained fire fighters and I look forward to seeing women amongst ten new fire fighters recommended in this report.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [149] Here, here.
(JS7PS003) [150] Most of the public don't often think about the Fire Service until they actually need it but I am sure they will welcome [...] fire fighters, not only improved our confidence in the service but theirs as well.
(PS4HB) [151] Mr do you wish to [...] .
(PS4HB) [152] Right thank you Mr Chairman erm I welcome the report and erm it's good to see that er the observations of the inspector have been taken on board and professionally addressed, erm I've come to expect that, take that for granted from er Chief Officers.
[153] We have the finest peo band of men looking after our fire service so I have never had any doubt, I didn't really need this report to tell me, but it is nice to see it written down, to see just exactly what they're doing.
[154] I am particularly er pleased to see the I T provisions at three two and elsewhere in the report the training for the business plan has been given to the staff [...] .
[155] I think that erm, erm I hope Mr will agree with me, we, we can go away well satisfied with what our what our, our Chief Officers, his staff have done and will welcome them,wel welcome the report.
[156] Mr Chairman I would like to move the resolution in standing in the Conservatives' name I would say that I would hope that erm the other side would er join with us in voting that through and certainly have no problem with the relevant resolution that Mr put forward.
(PS4HB) [157] Is that formally seconded?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [158] Yes.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [159] Yes Chairman I'd like to second that and just to erm say very briefly that er erm I, I very much welcome the report and the speed with which the Chief Officer is seen to have addressed most of the issues there are one or two bits that, that were of course were in fact posters, posters er be dealt with erm I have to say I still have some concern erm that the Chief Fire Officer and his team are so well supported on a very broad front on their decision making and their professionalism and yet on other matters of sound advice which has been given by er who are turned aside and just simply not given the proper consideration that they should have as in that er respect Chairman and I, I, I have some concern, erm it, it would not surprise me indeed if the, Her Majesty's Inspector of er er brigades, when he comes round himself, has some comment to make on that since I think he's expectations as well are almost as high as mine is.
(PS4HB) [160] [...] Mr .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [161] Mr Chairman may I sch speak to the Conservatives amendment and ask what is meant by B. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [162] precisely Mr Chairman if I could answer that the, the, the [clears throat] once the inspector comes back to the Fire Service and reports again and he is due back in June, we will then look at the matters he raises at that time and he will look at the progress report er what, what has happened since his last inspection and then we will have the opportunity to look at what the Inspector has, has to say after his visits, not very far away er, their Chief Officer will go on with this programme
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [163] implementing the recommendations made in the report that you have before you and er we we would like to see a report back which we will do anyway erm after the Inspector has visited and discussed it.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [164] But Chairman if I may
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [165] I'm slightly concerned about this because it said that other matters erm we don't know what other matters until the inspector has been in, in June and has identified those other matters, presumably when we get the further inspector's report next Autumn or after June, it will address issues which may have been ones he has addressed this year and maybe not, er and we will have to look at that inspector's report when we receive it.
[166] But until we do I can't see that we can pass something which refers to something we know nothing about.
(PS4HB) [167] [...] Mr .
Charles (PS4HC) [168] I am [...] something else.
[169] If we say we'll wait until after the inspectors' reports again, and then we'll consider that, we do that any way -that's not necessary.
[170] What I [...] was if any other matter comes into light before it comes in we don't do anything about it and that's why I would oppose that because of this [...] because one [...] it's not necessary to move something that we would look at it and sit back and after the inspector reports.
[171] What I'm against is the inference that we don't put any other matters erm that comes up on the subject if it arose prior to the to June.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [172] I [...] think there's a little bit of misapprehension Chairman on [...] Mr, Mr er I don't think you can trust when we come to a, a
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [173] Too right.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [174] a fire er policy and so on.
[175] There's nothing difficult about [...] a whole stream of, of er comments were raised by the inspector Mr team are, have addressed a large number of them, have told us what they propose to do to deal with a number of er and, and I believe that there will be things left over when he's finished that, that he won't be able to resolve er perhaps er without the people that help the Committee er or some of us are always suggesting is that er those things that he is unsuccessful in resolving erm be identified and so that er when, when the er the Inspector makes his er his next report we can see just, just why that some of these other items there have weren't able to be addressed.
[176] It's as simple as that.
[177] Don't read too much into it, it's all innocent stuff of course.
(PS4HB) [178] Thank you Simon Mrs [...] .
(PS4HB) [179] Thank you Chairman I, I actually agreed with those [...] not so much that erm I, I have problems with erm other matters, it is more [...] extra to be examined and because it actually says that it has to be examined once, and will therefore be re-examined erm, erm I am sure if it should be examined they have to put exact what it means examine in and before [...] and as you say er [...] you will be the first [...] to say [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [180] [laugh] oh oh oh.
(PS4HB) [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [laugh]
(PS4HB) [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [181] [laugh] .
(PS4HB) [182] I will proceed [...] to take a, take the votes on the first the Labour motion.
[183] But I promise I [...] .
[184] All those agreed?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [185] Agreed, agreed.
(PS4HB) [186] Er then secondly with the Conservative resolution, I [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [187] I wonder, Chairman, if we can take this as A and B?
(PS4HB) [188] Okay so well, take, take A then first
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [189] Agreed
(PS4HB) [190] Right B, page four
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [191] One, two, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
(PS4HB) [192] And those against please
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [193] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, yeah eleven. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [194] Come up with the goods we'll trust you.
(PS4HB) [195] How many votes [...] I [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [196] Three. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [197] [laugh] .
(JS7PS002) [198] I'd like to say Mr Chairman, can I ask how many members [...] .
[199] Erm, this, this report erm on recycling.
[200] Erm is before you to confirm on er Council and I'd like to start by saying very briefly that there is as you know a government legal distinction between the er the operational side of waste disposal and the regulation side, and properly er issues on recycling have been referred er and decisions on that should be referred to the policy committee but er we work very closely with officer's [...] before you hear us er request it.
[201] There are three issues that we wish to be discussed, they were about erm the recycling of compostable garden waste, waste building materials and dry packages and in the report we've addressed each of those in turn and said something about er [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [202] [cough] .
(JS7PS002) [203] that can be used for actually doing, doing the recycling on each of those, and and I would like to say that that this, this report had been erm prepared jointly by officers of the Transportation Department who were responsible for the operational side and wi and the officers and regulation side of, of the Authority Planning Environment Department and therefore the comments in the air have been shared between erm both sides er what I would like to say is that as well as the recycling activities which are carried out in our household waste facilities of glass, paper, waste -oil, etc., er there are we have in the last twelve months started two initiatives which I think will fall in into erm the, the first part -composting.
[204] One is in conjunction with East Herts and Essex Council [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS002) [205] Essex Council and contractors .
[206] we are at the moment er going through er an experiment compost [...] an experimental site where this is going on er near Hertford and erm we are obviously interested to see how that goes before that may, or may not, be extended and the second thing is that there has been a green cone experiment going on in conjunction with Welwyn Hatfield District whereby erm [...] householders
(JS7PS005) [207] [...] .
(JS7PS002) [208] Sorry.
(JS7PS005) [209] Hatfield town Council?
(JS7PS002) [210] We've not, we haven't done any in conjunction with the District Council Officers Welwyn Hatfield District Council and, and no doubt the Town Council I'm sorry.
[211] Erm er whereby the green code has been allocated to some er some houses having, people are recycling through bottle, erm bottle waste.
[212] The building materials side is primarily issues held by the er, the private sector and issue of the waste by factories is something which is the subject of er new er regulations which are often advice which is expected shortly from the Department of Trade and Industry and and we are awaiting obviously for that to come out to see what should happen and therefore our advice to you is that we should contin continue to keep these issues under review through the waste er advisory matter the waste er [...] Planning and Policy panel.
[213] Erm, er we talked to the departmental transportation departments er attended and it is I think fairly widely open to members of the county council so that, these issues can be pursued as and when they arise or choose to comes along [...] .
(PS4HB) [214] Mr .
Charles (PS4HC) [215] Yes thank you Chairman of I, I think we all welcome this er this particular report and er yes I think raised the issue as she did.
[216] Erm can I draw your attention to er Mr 's closing remarks.
[217] Er this the issues contained in the report er contined to be er, er considered by the waste management policy panel which is meeting now on er, erm a regular basis and will in due time no doubt report to the environment committee on some of it's deliberations.
[218] Erm there is er a danger that we as a County Council might become er embroiled in doing erm er work concerning the possible [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [219] [cough] .
Charles (PS4HC) [220] [...] which of course is rightly the, the domain of the District Council so I hope we won't get too involved in that.
[221] I have to say Chairman that I find that the suggested resolution of six is totally adequate to deal with [...] and I, I have read er the motion proposed by through a couple of times, and you know, it's having a few frills here and there and some are, I, I, I find this one thing [...] er more than adequate er to deal with the situation and er I would move that resolution formally.
[222] Thank you Chairman.
(PS4HB) [223] Miss .
(JS7PS003) [224] I'd like to propose the Labour motion because I think that this actually, these issues are very important and in a moment I shall say why I think they are.
[225] Erm and I think the Labour motion actually ensures that the County Council takes a more active part in addressing these issues as soon as possible.
[226] But even more so than the proposed the resolution proposed by the officers.
[227] Erm I'm happy to accept the officer's recommendations on the issue of the [...] .
[228] Erm on the issue of building materials I feel this is of particular importance to Hertfordshire residents living as they do on the gravel there.
[229] Erm I am trying to [...] local plan, places much emphasis on the use of recycled materials to reduce the rate of gravel extraction in the county and the associated environmental damage.
[230] Building materials form a large proportion of the waste dumped by fly tippers.
[231] Usually small building contractors who cannot afford the prices charged by official at your tipping site which are run by comm commercial companies.
[232] The problem which is outlined in the officer's report on people wasting petrol to take small amounts of material to recycling banks would not apply to building materials, as the quantities in question would be lorry loads which would otherwise be taken to a landful site or fly tip.
[233] As a County Council we have a commitment to reduce the amount of waste produced in the County, the building waste which includes spoil and rubble, forms around fifty per cent of the total waste production.
[234] Far more than household waste which forms about twenty five per cent of the total and therefore I feel that we can make an enormous contribution to the improvement of our environment by the establishments of sites for the collection for the sorting and resale of the building materials.
[235] I do realize that there are problems in finding suitable sites and that possibly that costs would be involved in setting them up, but for the reasons I've outlined we should take the bull by the horns and make an effort to find sites and budget for the costs involved so the benefits can be felt as soon as possible.
[236] On to the matter of composting garden waste, then the waste disposal off to landfill from household rescue could be reduced by about twenty five per cent if garden waste was separate [...] County Council refuse site and composted.
[237] As this is an item which people would to a household refuse, waste site already, the problem of generating [...] does not apply to this waste either.
[238] Some County Councils, notably West Sussex, already operate successful schemes of composting waste and reselling it to the public and surely Hertfordshire could do the same.
[239] I welcome the initiative that have already been started within the County and I shall be going to look at the [...] site [...] which is being offered to us, er but I do feel that we should be progressing these matters as soon as possible.
[240] [...] particular importance is two items of waste.
[241] Thank you.
(PS4HB) [242] Thank you Miss can I have your [...] ?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [243] Chairman I would like to second and reserve my decision.
(PS4HB) [244] Thank you Mr , er Mr .
(JS7PS003) [245] Mr Chairman I, I mentioned that whilst welcoming the report, erm our motion is to say is, is of a more general nature, we're looking at the, what is really has er greater standing for financial costs and other practical difficulties involved in increasing the proportion of waste erm who acts as [...] that recycled in the County and apparent progress in meeting government [...] recycling are not being too much and what needs a job [...] and whilst we recognise that responsibility with this requires primarily with the District Council rather than County Council as their question of authority erm it's an area that we haven't had much erm, the, there hasn't been perhaps to the environment committee for some, some time now and I would like to s to actually look at this, look at this again because it is a fairly fast moving,ch changing area, so erm this really is then more of a general, general information and to look at it again.
[246] I do have some concerns with Rosie 's erm, er to vote, vote Labour resolution on active sites or suitable, suitable sites er for recycling.
[247] Is she, where, is she actually proposing that these should be located? in, in the countryside, in, in towns? because they're sens sensitivities o on that particular on the siting of that er particular activity and er we're seen it elsewhere, er, those of us who have been on this committee for some time will know the concern that there are about the location of waste recycling facilities and er as I say I would hate that we would have a list of sites across the county which would just start paying us money and quite frankly should never be started.
(PS4HB) [248] Mr .
(PS4HB) [249] Thank you Mr Chairman.
[250] Erm I would, I too am concerned with Rosie 's proposition.
[251] I think that what what she is in danger of doing is cutting across what the District Council's doing, we, er and in East Hertfordshire we are running at a, a composting scheme in conjunction with the County at and I, I, I understand that looks to be very promising.
[252] I would be, unwilling to support the, the Labour motion because I think there is a limit to how detail out of detail, we as a County Council should get involved in this, this should be a District Council matter with the County Council giving, giving support which is what is happening now.
[253] I do support this, which is Michael 's resolution because we should be looking at the financial costs and er going into the practical aspects of this and let's, let's face it er there are many aspects which are financially unviable and we should be aware of exactly where we stand on that.
[254] Thank you Mr Chairman.
(PS4HB) [255] Thank you Mr .
(JS7PS002) [256] [...] .
(PS4HB) [257] Thank you Mr
(JS7PS003) [258] [clears throat] Chairman erm I didn't want to talk about issues but it's just really about sort of erm, erm [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS003) [259] because I think er Mr 's motion is erm, similar to er Rosie 's erm except that, I mean I think what we're actually saying is that we do actually have a number of waste planning sort of policy panel, er and this is something look, needs to be looked at in, in some detail, erm and if we just do it via a sort of straight report to the Environment Committee and I mean look at the sort of agenda we've got today er you know how much time can we spend on the details so I mean I hope the Liberal Democrats would accept that erm yes it will obviously come to the Environment Committee [clears throat] eventually er but that it actually should go to the Waste Planning to the Policy panel and other bits no doubt to the Waste Disposal sort of Sub Committee for this is the policy er committee of course .
[260] Erm but I hope you [...] because the panel could actually look at this in, in some detail, erm not just one meeting if necessary, I mean, it could go over two or more er meetings and the other thing Michael was talking about, you know, where the big sites, where should they be.
[261] It is very difficult to find them.
[262] That that's why the last part of the Labour motion is saying, we wish it actually to begin to look and consider it and again it's something really which the the panel, erm or indeed the sub Committee if appropriate
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [263] [cough] .
(JS7PS003) [264] erm could actually do, so what we are saying here is it needs to be considered seriously in answer [...] so you know we hope the Liberal Democrats will perhaps come in and support us on this or perhaps amend their motion and send this via the panel [...] .
(PS4HB) [265] Thank you Mr er Mr
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [266] Erm yes, Mr Chairman I should like to apologise to Bob for interrupting him then because er the enthusiasm about the green code business of course has to do with the Hatfield community project and is not initiated by Welwyn Hatfield when in the use er Herts County Council Paul in the community project, but nevertheless the green cone idea is the individual person, it's not the District Council and it's not somebody else taking a taking green erm green [...] type away for composting.
[267] It's people doing their own thing in their own gardens.
[268] [clears throat] er sale occurred when they went through the electrical register and asked people who lived in flats whether they wanted a green cone, they didn't even have a garden, let alone a window box but nevertheless erm I the green cone extends ought to be reported on, ought to be encouraged and such like because it is the individual person who is going to recycle using their own garden in their own small way as opposed to transporting the stuff maybe to a waste tip and such like where it has to be dealt with at a an expensive way and if a [...] the best part of the expense of dealing with waste of course is actually to transport and transport throughout the roads and if you do it in your own gardens so much the better and I, I, I should like to er and taking part in the green cone experiment er further experiments like that whereby the individual person is encouraged to do it.
(PS4HB) [269] Thank you Mr er Miss .
(JS7PS004) [270] Chairman I would like to pick up on this point about the identification of sites.
[271] I have experienced in my division where the County and the District identify the sites and were making some progress before the planning application was approved.
[272] Now the planning application is for Waste Regulation rests with this Authority and I would emphasise that to members here that wh if you're looking at the sites you must bear in mind that we are the waste Site Planning Application Authority and that you cannot go and make progress in any direction without it coming to Committee here and I would hope that officers would bear in mind the sensitivity which has already been mentioned in agenda today but members will find that these applications er are addressed in their own district, in their own divisions.
[273] Secondly Chairman I would like to draw the Councillors' attention to the fact that I'm this years representative on the South East Waste Regulation Advisory Committee and we have indeed got in hand a project which is to ... look at the whole of the recycling and the priorities for the South East region and I would imagine that by the time our officers have reported back to this Authority that they will have an advantage of having access to that report.
(PS4HB) [274] [...] Mr [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [275] Chairman, I'm delighted to hear that er we are actually talking seriously about improving the recycling and the possibilities of the waste that's created by our society.
[276] Erm a few years ago when I and others were saying that another forum e , er we were being er, er we were being being, being told it was far too expensive and there was no market there and all the rest of it.
[277] We've actually got to address the issue of the waste of the resources of the planet and it seems to me that this report addresses that fairly substantially.
[278] Obviously we're only part of the function of waste disposal and possible recycling.
[279] The other side of the coin is the one that's, that's a, a, a that's, that's mentioned by Michael and that is the improvement in the proportion of the waste sch sch stream that can be recycled.
[280] I would hope that whatever the County would put in place would encourage the w the, the waste collection authorities currently the district er councils actually to offer at doorstep collection arrangements wo which I believe will substantially increase the amount of, of waste that could be recycled.
[281] There is evidence around the country particularly in, in, in, in Milton Keynes where that sort of arrangement applies and I think we as a County Council as the waste er as the Disposal Authority must make sure that we put in place arrangements which will encourage that sort of thing to happen.
[282] It, it, it, it, it's, it, it surprises me that the amount of waste er that the proportion of, of the waste is, is, is fifty percent being er, er, er being builders' rubble not to put too fine a point on it.
[283] Erm and I am also conscious of, of the amount of, of, of commercial er, er commercial er tipping and that, that, that, that, that goes on.
[284] We must ensure that any recycling point or any, any er disposal er points that we have and they may be er recycling points if, if, if, if this proposal is, is actually accepted.
[285] Are actually available at as widely as, as possible, they're not closed because they're full for example.
[286] As I have a real a real concern that as soon as that happens er, er the sch stuff is, is if often just dumped on the side of the road and I suspect that's more to do with commercial operators than, than to do with the private householders and it and it and it and it, it, it's it does seem er to me that er, er that, that issue needs er needs to be addressed as well.
(PS4HB) [287] Thank your Mr , Mr would you like to exercise your right to reply or, or [...] .
(JS7PS002) [288] I'll be very, very brief erm we cannot fall back the control of the [...] country which even the highest rate of recycling that a number of them have already achieved the Government recycling target so now you've aimed er, I think it's something rich it more or less stands for er, I would see the role of the County is essentially is co-ordination between the various waste collection authorities through to the greater of the extense of [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [289] [cough] .
(JS7PS002) [290] of the expense are going to er
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [291] [cough] .
(JS7PS002) [292] recycling.
(PS4HB) [293] Before we go to the vote, Mr would you still want to organize your region or vote on separate or are they willing to amend it onto Labour's resolution.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [294] Ladies and gentlemen we would like our erm motion voted on separately.
[295] We are not happy with the Labour resolution for reasons I indicated earlier.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [296] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [297] [...] . ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [298] [cough] . ...
(PS4HB) [299] So I am going to start by taking a vote on the Labour group resolution proposed by Mrs .
[300] So all those in favour?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [301] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
(PS4HB) [302] And those against?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [303] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
(PS4HB) [304] Well then we'll take the vote on the resolution proposed by Mr can I see those in favour?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [305] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
(PS4HB) [306] And those against?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [307] nil [cough] .
(PS4HB) [308] and as we take the vote on Mr 's er resolution.
[309] See those for
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [310] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
(PS4HB) [311] And those against?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [312] ... nil.
(PS4HB) [313] We now move on to item number seven.
[314] Erm [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [315] Three, two, three, two, three, two [cough] . ... [cough] . ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [316] Agreed.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [317] Agreed.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [318] Agreed.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [319] Agreed. ...
(PS4HB) [320] Before you agree, there are three
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [321] [laugh] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [322] Too late, too late
(PS4HB) [323] there are [...] representation which I do need to put forward, er we've already had the supplementary report outlining the subject on [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [324] [cough] .
(PS4HB) [325] [...] er but we subsequently had er comments from [...] County Council er Royston Town Council and [...] Council and I don't think it will affect your decision because they're all full, these courses, with one or two minor changes. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [326] [...] Mr Chairman, I didn't get that last [...] the last late one that most of what they're saying is, comes under the authority of [...] .
(PS4HB) [327] That's correct.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [328] Thank you. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [329] Agreed.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [330] Agreed.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [331] Agreed.
(PS4HB) [332] Thank you.
[333] ... We now move on to item number eight, accounts
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [334] Agreed. ...
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [335] Erm, just that, first of all the time for
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [336] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [337] of the thought for the economical development policy panel er that is what I had agreed of er, I will just draw your attention to suggested resolutions on page four of the second report in the series.
(PS4HB) [338] Thank you.
Charles (PS4HC) [339] Mr Chairman I'll try and be as brief as brief as possible the economic development strategy programme for nineteen ninety four, ninety five has been reduced in the light of the [...] review of the [...] activity concerned with the prosperity and consultation and with widely increased [...] organisations and public agencies.
[340] I think we found as I say there are work [...] demanding which is probably the nineteen nineties are an increasingly well educated, skilled and flexible workforce responsible for it's services [...] policy and safety environment, the strategy in programmes for those [...] page twenty one [...] .
[341] Erm moving forward planners for completing [...] in brief by consultant on a special programme, making your recommendations to the Policy Committee [...] Hertfordshire Development Fund and providing an industrial and employment strategy in the structure plan for this kind.
[342] Erm we have had some success in [...] this year and we have, hope that we will have similar success in the future.
[343] With the need to consider further process in Hertfordshire Development Fund as well as the [...] by the strategy of ninety five, ninety six.
[344] Er and any process that will be the fund will be brought to the next meeting of the committee.
[345] Erm, erm the first, finally liked to add that erm my personal thanks to all those who have taken part on the panel [...] I've found it immensely enriching and have been
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [346] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [347] one of the best panels I've ever been on.
[348] Erm, I'd particular like to thank working with the officers, boys you make me sweat.
[349] The, erm, we've had erm covered an enormous amount of ground erm so erm and the other people I'd like to thank cos I think we have established an extremely good relationship with the Hertfordshire [...] er and everybody comments throughout the country that what a good relationship Hertfordshire has.
[350] It's something to be enormously proud of and we are attempting to involve everyone er say in Hertfordshire er in this important area and Hertfordshire is I say, what it's all about.
(PS4HB) [351] Thank you Mr .
(JS7PS003) [352] Thank you Chairman, could I erm move the er [clears throat] well it's a slight adaptation of the erm suggested erm [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS003) [353] on page four erm, by the, er [...] near the beginning, so it reads that [reading] that [] er comma [reading] noting continuing high rates [] er sorry [reading] high erm levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire.
[354] Er the County Council demonstrates that in five years the [...] Hertfordshire erm etc [] , erm now I think Chairman we do have erm a pretty good strategy into the [...] consultation rather better than the one for the erm current year which was started erm by the previous erm administration.
[355] I agree with Mike that the panel has been and er he is and will continue to do, erm I am sure, erm and, and that think certainly it will apply to, ought to be extended so that it won't need staff, er to be need during er nineteen ninety four erm and we wanted to, to note the continuing high levels of unemployment er on this side we believe [clears throat] the County Council should have an economic purpose strategy anyway, this should be a very important part of it's strategic there, the strategic planning role.
[356] Erm and so even if we had a full employment situation, we would still need an economic bonus strategy and I know the Conservatives won't agree with that, they were very reluctant the last administration to think about economic developments at all but, er eventually they realised the recession was quite er, quite serious.
[357] Well erm I know there's enough people around, the Prime Minister is trying to tell us that the recession is over and so is the Chancellor, well yes, unemployment has now gone under forty thousand within Hertfordshire, it's under forty thousand just.
[358] Er rather than being erm over er at forty thousand, for that we are, are pleased that the extra erm people is in work, but nevertheless we still have this very high level and we have a problem given the restructuring of the [...] economy, I'd better shut up because my colleagues er Chris and Jane are going to talk about erm another closure intending closure and yet more redundancies again er, it happens in Hatfield.
[359] These things are still erm happening and we've still got some major problems.
[360] Er we think it, er should be, you know drawn to the public's attention, government's attention that we cannot tolerate within this county, this high level of unemployment that we've got, and we're gonna do our damndest as a County Council to do what we can I know there is [...] in order to, to attack that particular problem.
(PS4HB) [361] Thank you Mr .
[362] Second of your er [...] .
(JS7PS005) [363] Er yes, erm thank you Mr Chairman.
[364] [clears throat] I noted Charles 's expression of disgust on the word unemployment, I believe tommorrow er the Government are going to introd er, are going to er produce new figures showing a drop in unemployment generally.
[365] Er I notice the government also talk about job seekers these days as opposed to people who are unemployed but for those who get up early in the morning or raise their head off the pillow as I do, see the business news on ... half past six on er B B C 1.
[366] Er I was being told this morning ... by not the Government that of the twenty million employed in this country, at least a quarter has been affected, has been affected by the disturbances in, in employment in recent years, so it doesn't matter you see whether your gun shot massage the figures.
[367] Whether they take people on a course
Charles (PS4HC) [368] rubbish, rubbish
(JS7PS005) [369] whether they send people on a course, whether they send people on a course because they're long term unemployed and having finished the course then don't get a job but they are no longer long term unemployed.
[370] They start again as newly unemployed.
[371] That sort of thing and the number of people waiting to get on a course.
[372] It is a disturbing thing and Brian in this short amendment drew attention to the high levels of unemployment.
[373] There are people not working, there are people who have been trained, there are people who have worked and have been trained.
[374] trained and nevertheless it is a disturbing thing and the [...] development of this County has to do, not only with businesses succeeding and also with people who are actually making those businesses work and the only way you can do it is by having people employed doing useful things.
[375] Useful things for the community and not wasting their talents doing futile things.
(PS4HB) [376] Thank you Mr Mr .
(JS7PS000) [377] Just a small point on this amendment, er the forty thousand figure we should be aware could be a Conservative figure.
[378] Er [...] with a small C, a large C as well erm [...] it belongs to as well.
[379] Er I'd refer members to the report that the International Labour Organisation brought out a week before Christmas.
[380] Now the I L O's isn't some shabby left wing organisation.
[381] Erm if it is I wish the Ford Motor Company gave as much money to the Labour party as they do the I L O but one of the points they made there is that in their opinion the unemployment figure in Britain is approximately four to four and a half million people because of the way the figures are worked out and the goal post of working have been changed by successive Ministers of Employment since nineteen seventy nine.
[382] was the first [...] .
[383] Er and since then we have come up with finding other ways to massage the figures downwards.
[384] We, I am sure, would all agree that the figure, whether it be forty thousand, sixty thousand, seventy thousand is far too high er and this is why it's important for this County to have an Economic Development Strategy. ...
(PS4HB) [385] Thank you Mr .
[386] Do you wish to make a resolution?
(JS7PS000) [387] Oh do you mean now or resolution in total or, or separately.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [388] Chairman are being er witness to er a separate resolutions?
(PS4HB) [389] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [390] Yes [...] .
(PS4HB) [391] Erm apart from Mr Chairman sir.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [392] Chairman Michael started off on a nice [cough] tripartisan note which er I think we on this side er did appreciate and it's true that this [...] panel er has agreed a great deal, covered a lot of ground and er I think er avoided the sort of er, er controversy etc., etc., was which we're now caring now we are arranging in practical groups does mean the Labour groups has introduced a sound note er Brian started off by saying that the Conservatives er were not interested in an economic development strategy, er I must point out that and this activity derives from the local government managing act nineteen eighty nine, and [...] by the present Government.
[393] Erm the Labour Party is absolutely furious that unemployment goes down in this country and they keep trying to say to the public that it's all hooey and, and, and, and the figures are distorted etc., etc., The fact is unemployment is going down, we are overcoming the recession, er faster than any other member of the er European Community or the European union as it's now concerned and, and these are the facts but having said all that, we on this side er certainly support a continuing strategy whether we'll er have to continue spending money at this level, er I don't know, hopefully er the, the recession will be overcome and the spending can be reduced, but the strategy we believe.
[394] In pursuance of the ninety nine Act er where we would we ought to continue to support.
[395] Thank you.
(PS4HB) [396] [...] .
[397] Mr ... Mr
(JS7PS001) [398] Er I'm sorry, I wa I wasn't gonna come in on this but er I've heard rubbish from Mr and I'd like to ask a question.
(PS4HB) [399] No that's to do with item number nine, er sorry item seven.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [400] [...] try to clear it up.
(JS7PS001) [401] No you, this was a criteria and when George said that the figures are massaged erm Mr shouted out rubbish.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [402] [cough] .
(JS7PS001) [403] I'm, I'm, I'm
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [404] He usually says rubbish that's what he says .
(JS7PS001) [405] I was made redundant when I was fifty eight by Welwyn Garden City when er Welwyn Garden City that's er [...] I was unemployed.
[406] Two years later when I was sixty and four months I was made redundant quite happy.
[407] Erm I've written umpteen letters and never got a job since.
[408] So I'm telling you Mr that I'm not unemployed because according to the Government figures I am not.
[409] Over sixty you do not get included in the statistics which makes it bloody stupid.
[410] ... and they can put that on the recorder but I've been told for the last two and a half years by this government that I am not unemployed.
[411] Now if you have got any comments on that, tell my wife that and she'll teach you some Anglo Saxon.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [412] [laugh] .
(JS7PS001) [413] And can I just comment on one point by Mr , he said about they've been using the local government erm housing Act.
[414] They resisted using that until last year, so let's get the facts straight.
[415] Thank you Mr Chairman.
(PS4HB) [416] [...] Miss .
(JS7PS004) [417] Just saying br , just saying briefly er Mr [...] I, I had something [...] I do find it most of the time we do find it very instructive and certainly the strength of the economic development strategy is about the partnership and all those partners contributing their particular field of interest and that's I think is [...] .
[418] I just wanted to s erm congratulate er whoever it was and [...] put together the [...] curriculum er programme which secured the three quarters of a million pound for all those [...] which will I, I think I can understand extremely competitive and I would like to erm give credit to there because that will be enormously for the business [...] which will give proper jobs er which is er very useful to the environment and, and, and really just to record erm that, that particular er success.
(PS4HB) [419] Thank you so much, I wonder if now we can move on Mr
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [420] Well I was going to a ask through you Chairman er Bob if he really is concerned with and not interested in this re-generation why he put five hundred thousand pounds into the budget?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [421] With a lot of pressure on you, and in fact you intended to take it back again if you won the election.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [422] [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [423] [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [424] [...] to make the point Mrs [clears throat] refers to all the work that's been done [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [425] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [426] and I would [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [427] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [428] from, from er the European Community or European Union erm, in fact Simon is sitting out there and I think this is the chap who've er really responsible for putting forward er, er on the County Council side the bid and er, er I think that our thanks ought to be extended.
(JS7PS004) [429] I was actually in fact going to thank him.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [430] [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [431] [...] .
(PS4HB) [432] I wonder if we can therefore erm take the latest amendment to [...] solution which is inserted after [quoting] that [] in line one, owing to the continuing high levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [433] [...] .
(PS4HB) [434] Let's see all those in favour [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [435] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, oh thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,six , fifteen Sir.
(PS4HB) [436] and those against?
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [437] [...] .
(PS4HB) [438] [...] those in favour of the Officer's Resolution as amended by the [...] Resolution.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [439] [...] .
[440] Thank you.
(PS4HB) [441] I have now [...] Mr to make his resolution.
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [442] Yes thank you Chairman the er [...] we could er put this resolution in at this stage because of the urgency of the er the matter.
[443] On Friday who operate Hatfield Aerodrome er announced that they will cease trading and the Airport will cease to be operational.
[444] Er we now believe, we now know there's at date of this list and the Airport will close will be April of this year, so there is urgency needed there.
[445] Er urgent action necessary.
[446] The main concerns we have are er two or even threefold.
[447] Firstly, we, the loss of jobs, er themselves employ a hundred and forty two people, there are a further one hundred and eight people who are employed in er periphery items and other firms on the airfield itself making two hundred and fifty, but this figure has doubled because of the imminent closure in March of Aerodrome and the number of companies who were going to transfer from these, and I hope transfer from these to Hatfield.
[448] Erm there is a need for a small airfield Hertfordshire.
[449] Er we had on the er structure planning policy within the joint needs of [...] Development er Committee, er a presentation from , now one of the points made there in what was a brief proposal or what have you er point was made [...]
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [450] [cough] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [451] was that and I quote [quoting] we are here to create jobs [] , now in keeping Hatfield air ,air airfield open to some extent, we may be able to create jobs in that area.
[452] Hatfield has become a bl black spot because of the closure of , er the aerospace industry in the County has suffered gravely in the past few years and I think you will agree, the closure of at [...] .
[453] Er at Hatfield and of course reduced working [...] Aerospace at Hemel Hempstead.
[454] Now the reason we've asked them to talk to the government, government departments about this is to see what can be done.
[455] It could be that nothing can be done, but we ought to be seen to be taking action over this.
[456] It could be and I don't want to preempt any discussion that would take place, but it could be a solution er from the Hatfield site could be found in the same way as a solution was found by er Sunderland Council and er Cleveland County Council over the shipyards in er in Sunderland.
[457] Now what's happened, what would happen if we were to follow the same type of line there would be that the airfield would stay open as if needed a small commuter airfield.
[458] There is a need for a commuter airport to serve London.
[459] Er the communications from Hatfield, Hertford are first class into the centre of London er is an option that perhaps you can consider but the fact that we can also then look at the [...] Sunderland example.
[460] The redevelopment of the er derelict factory site into smaller industrial units and making it er a form of want for a better phrase, enterprise zone where thanks to subsidies from the government and the E E C, we will look into making it rate free, reduced rents, etc., er increase capital allowances for companies going in there so you could attract the needed capital intensive industries that will meet the high tech need that we have the need to have to create high tech jobs.
[461] Of the forty thousand or whoever many thousand it is who are unemployed in Hertfordshire, a large number of people th those people are skilled.
[462] Usually skilled in the Engineering Industry.
[463] Er the new towns that Hertfordshire were built on were built on the banks of moving skilled engineers out of West London.
[464] Er and part [...] industrial estate.
[465] Hemel Hempstead is a prime example, and also of Stevenage and Hatfield is also er, er a [...] .
[466] So if we could look at those things and talk to the Government to see if it's possible, it maybe it isn't possible then that's a different argument but we should be seen to be doing something er to let this die on it's own will A, will deprive other people for odd jobs and in some cases I've met the representation [...] two guys there who used their redundancy money for Airways to purchase er a small aircraft and are running a flying school.
[467] They had nowhere else to go because this is closed and as they've said you can't pay the mortgage on a single engine two seater aeroplane and you can't [...] get rid of, to sell one of those things, there business [...] in liquidation.
[468] We should see what we can do on this matter and expect another report back and then they actually can tell [...] .
[469] Thank you.
(PS4HB) [470] [...] .
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [471] Chairman before we [...] .
(PS4HB) [472] Er er Mr [...] .
(JS7PS000) [473] Yes Mr Chairman erm I understand the motive behind this proposal resolution but I think the mover perhaps is unaware of what's actually going on and have to decide and so I would like to speak against this resolution and I think the constructive thing to do so we don't send the wrong messages would be to er I, I will move an amendment er and I will explain what I'm doing as I speak.
[474] This having early in the days this [...] not be impossible to get it all typed up.
[475] Er if I may I'll speak and then I'll give you an amendment ... which I think will be more constructive than the proposed resolution.
[476] The London [...] aviation did indeed make a statement last er Friday that they will cease their operation in April nineteen ninety four.
[477] Sorry, and erm that in their statement er they indicated that the hundred and forty two employees would be redeployed elsewhere in where possible.
[478] Obviously some of them will not be able to seek er alternative employment.
[479] What disturbs me about the wording of this resolution it's quite clear that it 's it has not been discussed with the relevant officers here and yet it seeks to instruct those officers to prepare a report.
[480] Does Mr know that the County Council's officers are involved as part of a team led by the District Council to redevelop on a medium to long term basis the entire site.
[481] This has been referred to frequently and the panel meetings where I've been present erm the authority has agreed that Council and what it's doing is to using a review of the District Planning Procedure is going to list this entire process working in partnership with Hertfordshire's own Organisation, County Council, the department of transport, and other relevant erm national and local government Organisations as well as of course with and are the owners of the site.
[482] Therefore, I do think the wording of this implies a lack of er, er of research and [...] and erm the implication
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [483] [cough] .
(JS7PS000) [484] of this, it says t a report detailing what assistance can be given to keeping the airfield open.
[485] Does Mr not know, er I think he does, because I've told him
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [486] [laugh] .
(JS7PS000) [487] that a major consultation has been going on in one is reminded of the earlier discussion about er St Albans, twelve thousand questionnaires have been sent out and there
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [488] has been a magnificent response er something er something approaching two thousand have been received.
[489] Last night very late I was told that
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [490] the draft of the, it must be a twenty page [...] Officer Report, that will be going next week to the Economic Development Council
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [491] of the District Council which happens to meet the same day as the County Council and the Economic Development Panel so if I can get a copy fast enough I will get one over here and that same week it will be formally preserved
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [492] to the Planning and Transportation Committee.
[493] That report is a detailed analysis of public reaction to the questionnaire.
[494] And I think it would be absolutely important
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [495] and vital that we don't and just as we said this morning said we wouldn't preempt and pre-judge the community of the St Albans District Council on the er on the transportation study.
[496] In the same way it is essential that we await the results of that questionnaire and that we discuss with the District Council the long term redevelopment of that airfield and so I think it would be more helpful in expressing our concern of course about the decision and [...] version of it which I will admit came as a shock because my understanding was they would be there for two, three, or four years yet.
[497] Nevertheless a business decision has been made.
[498] I think it would be far more helpful if we had an amendment.
[499] Perhaps even if Mr and his colleague could agree to this that instead of instructing our officers, after consulting the relevant government departments
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [500] I would say that after consulting the
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [501] [cough] .
(JS7PS000) [502] relevant partners, these are existing partners which includes county council and government departments to prepare a report detailing us what assistance can be given to the er, er redevelopment of the site with a long term opportun employment opportunities.
[503] Erm quite deliberately leave out the reference to keeping the airfield open because we don't, you don't yet know the results of the of the consultation with the public.
[504] I happen to know it but I think it would be wrong of me to disclose it tonight er this evening.
[505] I think you should wait for that and don't make any presumptions about the future of the runway.
[506] I have to advise the [...] information to the economic development panel which indicates from our survey that the report carried out last year by Consultants that the airfield, the runway in Hatfield ... makes only a very minor contribution to the economy of Hertfordshire.
[507] That information I have given to erm County Council Officers and therefore I think before you make any decisions you should erm
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS000) [508] examine that report and wait for the results of the erm public consultations.
[509] So what I am suggesting is that you don't accept this resolution and you accept a modified or amended version of it.
(PS4HB) [510] Thank you Mr can I have a seconder for your amendment, Alex
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [511] I'll second it for the time being.
(PS4HB) [512] Er Mr .
(JS7PS002) [513] Well actually forget what to say [...] well erm thank you Richard for erm putting forward a very touching case I am sure we all share the sympathy of the Hatfield further job loses, but there are major opportunities and we should not prejudge those opportunities as yet.
(PS4HB) [514] Yes [...] Mrs
(JS7PS004) [515] The, the Labour Party was seeking to actually to the value of the airfield.
[516] However, I don't, I mean I think it is very important that we actually re retain this actually at Harefield.
[517] That it's all very well to say to Consultants last year or some [...] it, it won't even be very little value to the economy of Hertfordshire but the position changes with the closure of for example erm
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [cough]
(JS7PS004) [518] also the airfield has never not actually be marketed properly it could be marketed much better as, as, as it was to attract more, more executive business and more freight business, freight, airfreight is a greatly expanding business and there are lots of opportunities that this airfield would have in airfreight we've got erm buildings there we could have [...] warehousing there to deal with airfreight.
[519] Heathrow has also put pressure on small jets that go to Heathrow by raising their landing fee charges, and that's more [...] against [...] .
[520] The City Airport is doing better but it's still not doing that well, there is a market for an airfield that would serve executive and freight business for North London and of course Hertfordshire, that airfield is needed.
[521] Elstree is not able to take all the aviation business that's been displaced for weeks that I know of and, and for Hatfield I've been notified by two people who are at present at Hatfield, one of whom is going to move to Stansted.
[522] Their jobs would be completely lost for Hertfordshire, you can't commute from Hatfield to Stansted and those people [...] Hatfield
Unknown speaker (JS7PSUNK) [523] [...] .
(JS7PS004) [524] and working in Hatfield they will not be able to go to Stansted it, it, it all would finally