| PS4R4 | X | m | (No name, age unknown, teacher) unspecified |
| PS4R5 | X | f | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS4R6 | X | f | (Claire, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS4R7 | X | f | (Catherine, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS4R8 | X | m | (Michael, age unknown) unspecified |
| PS4R9 | X | f | (Anne, age unknown, no further respondent information given) unspecified |
| JSTPS000 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| JSTPSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| JSTPSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[1] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[2] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[3] Enough of the chit chat please, [...] 's here and no |
| (PS4R5) |
[4] Yes. |
| (PS4R4) |
[5] Oh he is there |
| Claire (PS4R6) |
[6] Yes. |
| (PS4R4) | |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[7] 's er [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| Catherine (PS4R7) |
[8] Yes Miss. |
| (PS4R4) | |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[9] No and Claire |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[10] [...] . |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[11] What about me. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[12] What about you |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[13] Right, now we turn we're on page twenty nine. [14] Ssh. [15] Excuse me hello |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[16] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[17] Can you get your notes out on page twenty nine we're halfway through ... O K right |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[18] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[19] page twenty nine. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[20] [cough] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[21] Well you've read up until where Margaret comes in on page thirty, haven't we, [...] where does she come in. [22] Well she comes in on page thirty two rather. [23] Er and we're discussing erm page twenty nine yeah. [24] Have you all got notes so far on George? |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[25] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[26] You should have the notes on what George represents. |
| Michael (PS4R8) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[27] America . |
| (PS4R4) |
[28] Yeah, yeah, so I'll run through that and make sure you've got all those points down, then we'll start to think about Nick O K? [29] No sorry you've got notes on Nick [...] on Nick |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[30] and George. |
| (PS4R4) |
[31] and George, so I'll run |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[32] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[33] through them and you make sure you've got them all down O K? [34] Right so Nick first, he represents biology and the future and you've probably got all these things. [35] If you've got them just check them that they're there alright. [36] He represents biology which represents the future ... as far as George is concerned he represents genetic engineering and a very frightening kind of vision |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[37] George? |
| (PS4R4) |
[38] of the future. [39] This is what George thinks of Nick |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[40] Oh |
| (PS4R4) |
[41] you see. [42] You have to be careful, you can't actually say that Nick represents this or that, you have to say that George thinks that he represents and sort of a kind of genetic engineering which would turn out a generation of perfect people, alright. [43] This is erm Nick and I said that erm it's rather confusing here because on the one hand he represents the American dream boy because he's young, he's beautiful, he's got his future ahead of him. [44] He's got as, you know, a shining career ahead of him. [45] Erm but on the other hand and so it's valid to say he represents the American dream yeah? [46] Physically in terms of his character and where he's going. [47] On the other hand the ideas that are associated with him such as this fascist idea of engineering a super race O K are distinctly, you know sort of Nazi ideas aren't they and if you think about the political erm context in which this play was written. [48] O K the Cold War, you've got Russia and America building up their arms and so on and fighting all these kind of erm secret battles. [49] Erm then Nick actually represents Nicholas Khrushchev which I think is spelt on here. [50] It was on here now it's gone |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[51] Khrushchev . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[52] [laugh] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[53] Khrushchev |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[54] Khrushchev |
| (PS4R4) |
[55] who was President of Russia. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[56] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[57] [laugh] . [58] Spelt like that. [59] O K. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[60] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[61] So and the reason |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[62] and the reason |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[63] Shh |
| (PS4R4) |
[64] The reasons critics have said erm that this may be the case is because the equation works erm very neatly. [65] If you can think about George and Martha's name, what is the significance, one person of George and Martha's name. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[66] George [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[67] One person, Anne. |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[68] George Washington [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[69] Right O K, so George Washington was the first President of America and his wife actually was called Martha. [70] So there is a very kind of neat equation there. [71] Unfortunately honey doesn't s fit into it. [72] I don't know if honey even existed in Russia and I somehow doubt it. [73] So erm but that has w has led some critics to suggest that the whole play in fact is about the Cold War. [74] It's a very political play ... O K So now we're moving on to George |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[75] Did he ever did like [...] say, that's what he meant by [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[76] No this is purely speculative. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[77] So nobody's ever asked him? |
| (PS4R4) |
[78] No and I don't think he would answer you, even if he did. [79] Even if you asked him. [80] You know, critics er playwrights don't like to be pinned down. [81] You say, you know, this play is about this. [82] The thing is that I am sure he was aware of associations but that doesn't mean to say that it is a political play, er and that was the only purpose of his writing that. [83] I am sure he has other purposes as well, it's basically about a marriage breaking down |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[84] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[85] but it doesn't, that doesn't mean to say that these associations you know aren't there and that we we shouldn't would be wrong to point them out. [86] I think we are quite justified in pointing it out. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[87] [...] do we have to conclude from if it was a play about the Cold War, what is the conclusion of it? [88] I mean [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[89] Well |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[90] is it Russia [...] trying to prove by [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[91] Erm |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[92] it is political. |
| (PS4R4) |
[93] I don't think he really comes to a conclusion. [94] I think he's just portraying the situation as it was, kind of sparring of each other, playing games with each other , you know that kind of fits it doesn't it? [95] Erm subterfuge and you know deceiving people, and pretending if you haven't got any nuclear arsenal when you have and and that kind of thing, you know, you will hear [...] playing games like that aren't they, hiding up the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[96] It's not a good enough reason to like |
| (PS4R4) |
[97] No it isn't. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[98] characters into your [...] . [99] ... It's not sort of like a [laugh] , |
| (PS4R4) |
[100] Go on |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[101] it's not like a good enough reason for him to call the characters these names, like if they don't have that much significance. [102] Why didn't he call them something else? |
| (PS4R4) |
[103] Exactly. [104] So you're saying that because they have these names, their probably is an equation. [105] That |
| (JSTPS000) |
[106] Yeah they're probably, there should be more of one than there is. |
| (PS4R4) |
[107] Oh right, so it's not s , it's not enough for you to be convinced. |
| (JSTPS000) |
[108] Yeah. |
| (PS4R4) |
[109] Well I think, you know, it's not essentially a political play. [110] Emma can you concentrate but on the other hand I think that we would be missing something if we didn't point out that it has that side to it, alright. [111] So I am just throwing it out in the air, I don't think it's that s |
| (JSTPS000) |
[112] It doesn't work as a political play. |
| (PS4R4) |
[113] No it's not, it's not it's main erm way of communicating. [114] On the other hand it does fit in. [115] Let me just finish |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS4R4) |
[116] about George. [117] Let me explain about George and I think you'll understand better. [118] George O K I've said that he represents America in the Cold War, merely because of his name, but there's actually more to it than that because he erm, he believes in history and in the past and his values are very old fashioned. [119] This comes out in this page [...] we'll have a look at it in more detail in a minute. [120] ... So he re he represents sort of old fashioned moral values ... and he opposes the kind of fascism which he ... thinks he can see in Nick ... |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[121] [...] that [...] paradox isn't it if, if Nick has fascist quality. |
| (PS4R4) |
[122] Mm mm, |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[123] Qualities |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[124] yes. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[125] but he represents Russia. |
| (PS4R4) |
[126] Exactly, no yeah he represents the American dream. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[127] No well Russia by his name. [128] If w if we are taking as a political thing. [129] Nick as Russia |
| (PS4R4) |
[130] Mm mm. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[131] and then he's pointed as this fascist who [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[132] Oh you are saying . |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[133] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[134] So you are pointing out that Russia wasn't fascist. [135] What are you saying? |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[136] Well yes because, I mean, if N erm George is supposed to represent America |
| (PS4R4) |
[137] Yeah |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[138] then Nick is supposed to represent Russia loosely |
| (PS4R4) |
[139] Mm mm. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[140] How come he has all these fascist qualities in him? |
| (PS4R4) |
[141] Who Nick? |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[142] Yes shouldn't he be communist. |
| (PS4R4) |
[143] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[144] [laugh] . |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[145] It's like completely nonsensical |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[146] It doesn't work [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[147] Well what I want |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[148] Doesn't work does it. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[149] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[150] He can't be one and the other. |
| (PS4R4) |
[151] No he can be an American dream and he can also represent Russia because they're different things that you're talking about. [152] You know the American dream is to do with [...] ideals. [153] Whereas Russia is erm, is to do with the Cold War situation but I take Michael's point that fascism and communism are not the same thing and to say that he has fascist ideas does not necessarily mean that he therefore represents Russia in this political equation |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[154] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[155] but I don't think it's really worth worrying too much about whether he's fascist or communist because erm ... the only reason really there's only link between him and Russia and the play is A is the opposite of America, in other words George and B because his name Khrushchev which [...] links it to the leader of the er |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[156] Because he's young and virile and he's new |
| (PS4R4) |
[157] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[158] versus the old, it can be looked as communism because it's a new thing it's being [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[159] [...] thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[160] by the way he's [...] with fascist ideas that all this |
| (PS4R4) |
[161] I mean some of the fascist ideas surely Hitler who had fascist ideas |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[162] Mm. |
| (PS4R4) |
[163] and I mean what's the link between Hitler and communism? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[164] Nothing. ... |
| (PS4R4) |
[165] He didn't like [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[166] Not really he didn't like |
| (PS4R4) |
[167] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[168] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[169] [laugh] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[170] There is nought. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[171] [laugh] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[172] Put that in your dictionary |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[173] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[174] O K. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[175] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[176] Alright well let |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[177] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[178] I take your point. [179] So in that case all we can say is that the link was between Nick |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[180] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[181] and Russia is to do with his name, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[182] and that's all. |
| (PS4R4) |
[183] Well the other thing to do with being fascist |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[184] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[185] the other thing is to do with being fascist, yes, but you know you erm, you can talk about Russia, you know, running under the Czar and all the rest of it before communism came along. [186] That would have been a fascist kind of imperial erm state wouldn't it. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[187] is it more that [...] just like a general representation of fascism and communism. |
| (PS4R4) |
[188] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[189] like revolution. |
| (PS4R4) |
[190] Exactly, yes and the young threatening the old which Michael just helpfully pointed out amongst his more er [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[191] [...] genetic engineering as well |
| (PS4R4) |
[192] Yes exactly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[193] [...] created everybody the same. |
| (PS4R4) |
[194] Well you see exactly which is why, I mean we're getting into problems here because we're trying to say that one character equals one thing and it's not that, it's you know Nick he's a scientist, he's a biologist, he also represents in a way Russia, he also represents, you know, kind of erm the new of the young threatening the old. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[195] but then in that case |
| (PS4R4) |
[196] Then George represents the old value of systems |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[197] Then it's very hard for the audience or people reading the play to pick anything up from it because it's all mixed up and it's just an amalgam of [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[198] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[199] One at a time one at a time please. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[200] It's for each person, that's why like the playwright doesn't specify what each thing's supposed to mean because it can mean whatever it wants to each member of the audience. [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[201] Exactly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[202] Then it satisfies them personally. |
| (PS4R4) |
[203] And if you were a a lecturer in politics and you went to see this play then you might think oh look [...] oh and then you'd start thinking and if you were a scientist you would think about it in another way and if you were an artist you'd think about it in another way. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[204] But if he was trying to be a political playwright then shouldn't he clarify what he [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[205] Well what I am saying is that I don't think it is his primary concern. [206] Right, it is not the main line of the play. [207] The play is basically a psychological study of a marital break up, yeah, of a couple and the other couple are very largely just an audience to George and Martha's marriage yeah, that is the main line. [208] Though what I am trying to do is just explore all these possible lines of thoughts erm in a political way, alright, but they don't work out neatly and these critics got quite excited about so I thought I ought to point them out to you but you're quite right in pointing out that they don't work out neatly, O K. So we've got to, where have we got to with George? [209] Erm right. [210] He represents the past and he keeps talking about history because he is history and I said that he 's he represents old fashioned moral values. [211] Let's have a look at the text now, cos it will hopefully make these a lot clearer and you will see what I am on about. [212] Right erm, so page twenty nine ... you can look at the top, you can see George says, [reading] you're the one, you're the one that's going to make all that trouble [] . [213] So how does he feel about Nick? [214] ... One person. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[215] He feels threatened. |
| (PS4R4) |
[216] He feels threatened by him, fine. [217] Alright, you're the one that [...] all that trouble. [218] Because Nick is ju erm is young and because he associates him with all these dangerous ideas, in genetic engineering and so on, he feels threatened by him. [219] So to that extent George is on the side of history, isn't he? [220] He's he's saying, I don't like what's happening now. [221] ... Erm if you look at the next speech he makes, he says, do you believe that people learn nothing from history? [222] So in other words he's saying, you should look to history to try and understand what's happening. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [cough] |
| (PS4R4) |
[223] He suggests that there is something to learn from history. [224] ... Alright, so he looks to the past for his moral inspirations and he imagines that Nick is looking to the future. ... |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[225] So we're on page thirty now? |
| (PS4R4) |
[226] Twenty nine, about a third of the way down. [227] Alright, so all these points are quite easy and straightforward, aren't they? [228] George looks back to the past and Nick looks forward to the future. [229] ... Erm then we get to a rather inter funny bit really. [230] In the middle of page twenty eight, George lists all his different erm qualifications that he says he has and [...] , I am not quite sure what an [...] is an M A Master of Arts, P H D which is a doctor of erm philosophy and and he puts them all together to make up this word, ABMAPHD which doesn't exist obviously as a real word. [231] He's just made it up and he says it's been described, this word, as a wasting disease of the frontal lobes and [...] where are your frontal lobes? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[232] In your brain. |
| (PS4R4) |
[233] Yes, so what's he saying? [234] Slight [...] he's got on his qualifications. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[235] His brain's wasted away. |
| (PS4R4) |
[236] Exactly. [237] So it's a joke O K. It's sort of er at himself, a self critical joke. [238] Saying fine I've got all these erm ... degrees ... [...] ... and there's a wonder drug, in other words [...] can do wonderful things. [239] ... [...] in me all these things. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[240] so what's he saying [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[241] He's kind of teasing Nick and saying, I've got all these degrees. [242] ... Then he makes up this funny word and says it's the name of a disease by which his brain is rotting away. [243] ... So it's a kind of joke about professors who are totally incapable of any original thought. [244] ... O K and [...] really very mistrustful biology [...] . [245] So again you see that he feels threatened and er doesn't trust Nick because of erm these ideas which he associates with Nick. [246] He assumes that Nick is, you people are rearranging my genes, so that everyone will be like everyone else. [247] Which is actually a very s serious idea and he is opposed to that, that new kind of genetic engineering, alright. [248] So to that extent he represents sort of old fashioned moral values, you know, this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed to happen, it's disgraceful. [249] ... so [...] saying they're very old fashioned erm sort of democratic ideas, aren't they? [250] And the idea of making everyone look like each other is a communist idea, yes? [251] Sort of everyone should be the same, everyone should have equal rights and equal erm opportunities. [252] So that what Nick, he imagines Nick is doing, whereas he opposes that. [253] So now can you see how politically, there is a kind of political subtext to this section ... erm as I say you can only follow it so far down a road then you come to a dead end but I think it's there and you can't really ignore it, the political subtext. [254] All got that as a phrase the political subtext. |
| (PS4R4) |
[255] and it it crops up at various different stages through the play as well, it's not just erm, you know |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[256] I just can't buy it, I'm sorry but if the author is going to put elements, a political element into it, he must be steering the audience towards something, because [...] why bother putting all these points up, because everybody realises, what the cold war is |
| (PS4R4) |
[257] [...] . |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[258] I mean he's not really pointing anything out that nobody already has known [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[259] I think the only difference is, how far beneath the surface the subtext is. [260] I mean you can interpret any play you want to Twelfth Night for example is having a political subtext if you look far enough beneath the surface of the play. [261] The question is, how near to the surface of the play is it and how that is what influences wh the audience as to how important they think it is. [262] If someone stands at the front of the play, at the front of the stage and says, you know, I believe in democracy, then you know you are let into a political play, yeah. [263] Here you become just faintly aware but you start thinking mm, you know, George is old fashioned, he doesn't like what's happening around him, he's rather conservative in that way. [264] Oh look his name's the same as the first person of America. [265] Oh and his wife's got the first name too and the name of the his wife too and then you begin to you begin to put a few equations together. [266] I don't think, you know, he's not trying to ram it down our throats but it is there Michael. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[267] Yes and if erm it was all like a political bit all the way through it, they wouldn't be like re real characters |
| (PS4R4) |
[268] Exactly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[269] and you wouldn't get all this psychology bit in as well. |
| (PS4R4) |
[270] Exactly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[271] It's more psychological isn't it then. |
| (PS4R4) |
[272] More psychological, definitely yes. [273] Yes absolutely. [274] Alright. ... |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[275] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[276] O K so carry on then. [277] As Tim said you have to hold on to the fact that these are real characters and their in a kind of confrontational situation here aren't they? [278] And each feels er sort of under threat from the other. [279] Erm and it's very largely because of the ideas that are associated with them. [280] Erm, where did I get to, oh yes. [281] Well he's talking about the er genetic engineering, he says that it will be a shame. [282] Then he makes a joke out of it and says, you know, if everyone was forty something and looks fifty five. [283] So in other words he makes a joke about his [...] if they all looked like me, wouldn't that be awful. [284] So [...] he's kind of making a joke about it but there is a serious point there as well. [285] ... That he feels kind of disappointed and upset by what he sees happening in science around him. [286] Disappointing he says, disappointing, alright. [287] Then at the bottom of the page erm, he says I am in the history department and he says I shall probably tell you several more times and indeed he does in the play. [288] Martha tells him often that I am in the history department as opposed to being the history department, in the sense of running a history department. [289] I do not run the history department. [290] Erm, why is he telling all Nick this do you think? [291] All this to Nick. [292] ... I mean how does it come over? [293] ... What's it doing to their relationship? ... |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[294] Is he erm bring himself down a bit to Nick's level, cos Nick [...] and hasn't really got any position? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[295] He's |
| (PS4R4) |
[296] Possibly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[297] Is he just opening up a bad [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[298] [cough] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[299] Open |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[300] Trying to be like on a more friendly basis with Nick [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[301] Yes |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[302] [...] how his marriage works. |
| (PS4R4) |
[303] That's right, yeah. [304] He's kind of revealing his inadequacies and failures, isn't he? [305] His sense of failure. [306] If you do that to someone, then you open yourself up, don't you? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[307] I thought he was kinda saying to [...] that by the time she got round to saying it, it wouldn't mean as much. |
| (PS4R4) |
[308] Quite possibly that as well, Anne. [309] I agree. [310] Yes, it's to kind of forestall Martha, before she has a chance to get in there. |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[311] Well why would he want to tell him all his failures, especially that he's viewing Nick as an opponent [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[312] That's right , it's just changes tack now doesn't it really. [313] [...] stop being confrontational, it's more to do with erm, you know, I think he actually wants sympathy from him. [314] To open yourself up to someone like that, I am a failure, then you're kind of establishing a different level of relationship aren't you. [315] Does he get any kind of sympathy, I mean how does Nick respond? [316] Well I don't know I'm the biology department, what's he trying to do there? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[317] Make him feel better. |
| (PS4R4) |
[318] Make him feel better, comfort him, exactly. [319] Alright so we're back into the subtext now aren't we. [320] It's not what they say, it's what lies underneath the words it's interesting. [321] Alright, and then there's this extraordinary bit erm, that George has in the middle of page thirty, about what happened when he did run the history department for four years during the War. [322] What's interesting about that little spee speech there. [323] People who haven't said anything this lesson From I did run the history department, that main speech there. [324] What's interesting about that speech? [325] ... What does he appear to lament? [326] ... What's surprising about it? [327] ... Come on ... , what's surprising about that? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[328] About what? |
| (PS4R4) |
[329] About that speech there? [330] I did run the history department, it's quite joky isn't it? [331] It's quite shocking as well. [332] Are you looking at the right bit? [333] Erm, I don't think you are, you don't know where we are, page thirty, half way down. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[334] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[335] Wrong page, right O K. Come on help her out, somebody else. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[336] Isn't it that he only had the job because nobody else was there? |
| (PS4R4) |
[337] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[338] So it's sort of quite sad really [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[339] It is actually, it makes him feel rather sad erm and also rather funny, and therefore, he rather comes over a rather pathetic creature. [340] Get that in before erm [...] [laugh] and er come on, what else, there's something shocking about that speech, what's shocking about it? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[341] [...] upset [...] got killed. [342] You know he's like upset that nobody got killed. |
| (PS4R4) |
[343] He's not upset? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[344] He's ups he's not upset, he's not bothered. |
| (PS4R4) |
[345] Exactly. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[346] He wishes like somebody did get killed. |
| (PS4R4) |
[347] He wishes that they'd all got killed. [348] Because that would mean that he would have been able to hold on to his job. [349] So he's a really [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[350] He doesn't really, he's does he? [351] I thought it was just like Commentating that it hadn't |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[352] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[353] Yeah but it's just a joke. [354] What I am saying is a joke, you know, it's not in very good taste is it? [355] I mean this was written in nineteen, was it sixty four perhaps? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[356] Two. |
| (PS4R4) |
[357] Sixty two only, you know, not that long after the War had ended and to the lament that nobody got killed [laugh] you know you might have had more chances e of success if they had all got killed. [358] I think it's pretty shocking, it's actually in that kind of stage. [359] And then what about, what's interesting about the way that speech ends? [360] Extraordinary. |
| (PS4R4) |
[361] Go on one of you. [362] How does the speech end? ... |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[363] By changing the subject |
| (PS4R4) |
[364] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[365] completely. |
| (PS4R4) |
[366] To? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[367] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[368] Mm mm. [369] What about her? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[370] [...] her small hips. |
| (PS4R4) |
[371] About her small hips, why hips? [372] Why not legs or breasts or |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[373] Because of the way Martha introduced her to him. [374] When she first said that there were guests coming round, she said, Martha she didn't have any hips. |
| (PS4R4) |
[375] Oh yes, that's true. [376] Yes and that's what |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[377] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[378] George has remembered. [379] Exactly it's about childbearing isn't it, I mean [...] having hips is also to do with your shape sexually isn't it. [380] I mean it's going in and out at the right places but it's also to do with childbearing O K. So George is changing the subject there completely kind of off the wall isn't he, er this comment? [381] ... And so what does this reveal about him then. [382] Why did he suddenly do that? ... |
| Michael (PS4R8) |
[383] It [...] it's confusing him. [384] He is talking about something and suddenly [...] changes the subject. |
| (PS4R4) |
[385] Yeah but why? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[386] To stop exposing himself. |
| (PS4R4) |
[387] To stop |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[388] exposing himself. |
| (PS4R4) |
[389] Possibly yes, he kind of like wants to erm move off but then he comes back to it in a minute though, so that doesn't quite hold. [390] What is I mean why is he [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[391] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[392] business. [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[393] Why is he interested in th this business of well erm Nick and Honey. [394] Or whether Nick erm Honey has hips? [395] Is it sort of child bearing? [396] Why is |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[397] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[398] [...] if she had any kids. [399] She can have kids. |
| (PS4R4) |
[400] She can have kids, that's right and it's also, well it's back to his own his own fantasy child isn't it and th his own inability to have children with Martha. [401] So this kind of erm interest in children and in whether a couple are able to have children or not is has obviously been lying at the back of his mind hasn't he? [402] I mean this could be another area in which he feels threatened because he thinks if Nick and Honey have children then that again will reinforce a sense of failure, won't it? [403] He needs to find out. [404] ... alright? [405] And in fact it is as if we're having, it is if George is actually having two conversations at the same time. [406] Ostensibly he's talking about his career and history department and he goes back to it again. [407] [reading] Not one son of a bitch got killed. [408] Of course nobody [...] no that's not fair [] and then all the time he keeps coming back to this issue. [409] You have any kids? [410] Alright. [411] And when Nick asks him, how does he respond? [412] Right at the bottom of the page thirty. [413] Come on, easy question. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[414] That's for me to know and you to find out. |
| (PS4R4) |
[415] Yes. [416] A kind of a challenge. [417] Alright? [418] So he's also secretive. [419] So what's interesting here is that they seem to be having a conversation about un the university matters, the history department and so on but in fact there's this kind of subtext going on here in which both of them want to find out about the other person's ... children and both of them are being very mysterious and avoiding the question. [420] No kids ha? [421] Not yet. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[422] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[423] No, that's another strange thing. [424] Erm, I think that [...] was gay and |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[425] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[426] I'll have to look it up. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[427] He was also adopted [...] ? |
| (PS4R4) |
[428] Yes, exactly, which is what is interesting for the American dream, isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[429] Mm. |
| (PS4R4) |
[430] A lot of things like that which happen to him, he then put into his drama. [431] He was adopted himself. [432] I think he was gay. [433] I don't think he ever got married. [434] And so this interest in marriage and this kind of fascination and you kn I think it would be very natural, I think, for a gay person to feel terribly envious of people who can create a family and er ... and this kind of fascination with babies. [435] Anyway, then we get to another funny bit on page thirty one. [436] Erm, people do erm have kids and then kids links them with the what they were talking about before, the genetic engineering because now what they start talking about, two things kind of come together, the two themes and then they start talking about? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[437] Test tube babies. |
| (PS4R4) |
[438] Test tube babies, exactly, yes. [439] Then there's a wonderful line. [440] [reading] Then the rest of us, them as wants to, can screw to their heart's content [] . [441] A what does he mean when he says that and B what's the effect of all that on the audience? [442] That bit about screw to their heart's content? [443] Wonder wonderful bit of language. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[444] [laugh] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[445] Screwing's not just about having babies. |
| (PS4R4) |
[446] Sorry. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[447] That screwing's not just about having babies. ... |
| (PS4R4) |
[448] Er yes. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[449] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[450] O K yes. [451] That it's fun yes. [452] To their heart's content. [453] In other words sex can be great fun, you don't need to have to do it in order to just have babies. [454] If you make babies in test tubes then er, you know, the rest of us don't need to worry about it. [455] In fact it would be just one less thing to worry about if we could all er screw to our heart's content. [456] O K yes, well it says what it means. [457] What effect is it going to have on the audience. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[458] Shocking and |
| (PS4R4) |
[459] Shocking and |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[460] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[461] You were all laughing, yes, that's amusing as well. [462] It's also the big A word absurd. [463] ... Because it's so unlikely and it's so shocking and it's such a funny thing to say. [464] [...] well then, yes the next bit actually is more absurd than that, sorry. [465] What will happen to the tax deduction? [466] ... Now I assume that in America as in England, if you have children you then get some financial help. [467] In this country you get a, you know, child benefit that you and in America you would obviously get a tax deduction if you have children. [468] So he's saying, it's a kind of complete kind of lateral thinking. [469] You know if everyone [...] around and they didn't actually have their own children. [470] They just had their children developed in labs in test tubes. [471] Ha how would you be able to claim for your tax deduction? [472] So it's a wild bit of sort of er lateral thinking there. [473] Very amusing. [474] I am sure that an America would [...] love that but it may not [...] you know, to an English audience because er we might not be sure what they are talking about. [475] So again they talk around subjects. [476] Nick refuses to say whether he's got any children or not ... and George keeps saying, you know. [477] Are you going to have children? [478] Are you going to have children? [479] And Nick keeps saying. [480] Well yes, we want to wait, we want to wait. [481] Can you now look in the middle of page thirty one. [482] This is erm and this [...] taking in not only the room they had [...] the whole countryside. [483] This is your heart's content Illyria, Penguin Island, Gomorrah. [484] Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage Jane? [485] Let's have a look at all those [...] places he refer to and then work out why he's referring hem. [486] So Illyria we should all know what Illyria is. [487] Describe the land of Illyria to me? [488] Adjectives? [489] ... Well |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[490] [...] what it's basically like? |
| (PS4R4) |
[491] Erm. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[492] Wasn't it erm a country with a cost |
| (PS4R4) |
[493] Yes, alright, yes. [494] That's a very literal one. [495] What's the atmosphere like in Illyria? [496] Which play, we're talking about by the way? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[497] Twelfth Night |
| (PS4R4) |
[498] Right what's the mood then, what's the atmosphere? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[499] Festive. |
| (PS4R4) |
[500] Festive ... come on, keep going, lots of things. [501] What's the mood of it [...] twelfth night? ... |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[502] [...] love. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[503] [...] light. |
| (PS4R4) |
[504] Love, light, full of light. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[505] Dream like. |
| (PS4R4) |
[506] Dream like definitely |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[507] Confused . |
| (PS4R4) |
[508] Confused, definitely. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[509] Mad. |
| (PS4R4) |
[510] Mad definitely, yes. [511] All those things, yeah. [512] Do you see the links now? [513] ... In what way dream like? [514] ... Dreams and people deceive each other. [515] In this play they have ... imagining children fantasies, yes. [516] So that link there between dreams and fantasies and and being deceived and going mad, I think is quite clear isn't it? [...] world and between Shakespeare's world. [517] ... Penguin Island, I was reliably informed the other day, is the island where erm Batman's |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[518] [laugh] joking. |
| (PS4R4) |
[519] Penguin comes from |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[520] You're joking. |
| (PS4R4) |
[521] No I'm sure you're probably right and it [...] . [522] Who is the Penguin Anne? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[523] [laugh] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[524] Come on. [525] Is he good or bad? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[526] He's a baddy. |
| (PS4R4) |
[527] Right, he's a baddy, thank you. [528] So that's an evil place, yeah. [529] A strange and evil kind of fantasy world, yeah. [530] Gomorrah? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[531] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[532] Yes, what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[533] They got destroyed punished . |
| (PS4R4) |
[534] Yes , because |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[535] The they |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[536] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[537] Yes, good. [538] So what did God say? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[539] To banish them from their doom. |
| (PS4R4) |
[540] Mm. |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[541] Take them away from it. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[542] No he just destroyed everything, he just [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[543] [...] but why, I mean because yes because they were sinning and evil. [544] He actually said to them, if you can find, you know, a hundred good men then I won't burn your city and then he put it down and down and down and had a good old bargain. [545] If you can find ten men. [546] If you can't find ten men. [547] If you can find one good man, then I won't burn down your city and they can't get anybody, so whoosh the whole lot goes up, O K. So Gomorrah |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[548] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[549] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[550] Gomorrah is one of the cities in the Bible, Sodom is the other one, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because people there were so evil. |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[551] It's the city of [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[552] It's the name of the city, is it? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[553] No [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[554] [...] . |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[555] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[556] Right [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[557] Because [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[558] And the last one. [559] Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage aye. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[560] It's classical |
| (PS4R4) |
[561] Yes from classical mythology, Greek classical mythology. [562] What happened to it? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[563] [...] Died [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[564] The Romans obliterated it |
| (PS4R4) |
[565] They obliterated it, yes. [566] They burnt it down didn't they and from the this is from Virgil's Aeneid |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[567] Because [...] invaded [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[568] That was revenge was it? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[569] It's not in the Aeneid is it? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[570] Yeah [...] |
| Anne (PS4R9) | [...] |
| (PS4R4) |
[571] I am reliably informed. |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[572] No, it's referred to [...] and Aeneid but it's not actually what happened to the city. |
| (PS4R4) |
[573] Well that, I think the original one is from [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[574] [...] . |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[575] It [...] just another reference [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[576] It's another reference, yes, at a revenge again. [577] So somewhere that was violently and destroyed out of revenge. [578] So what do all these things? [579] I mean what is George on about here? |
| Anne (PS4R9) |
[580] They're all classical. [581] I mean they're all history. |
| (PS4R4) |
[582] Yes, historical references, sure and literary references as well because he represents the arts amongst other things, whereas Nick represents the sciences. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[583] Is he just saying that the place he's living in is a dump? |
| (PS4R4) |
[584] Exactly, then there and what's this question to Nick then? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[585] Oh why do you want to stay here, why don't you leave. |
| (PS4R4) |
[586] Exactly and more to the point. [587] Why do you want to |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[588] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[589] What's the subtext of this whole section here? [590] What do they keep on going back to? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[591] Having children |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[592] kids |
| (PS4R4) |
[593] Having children. [594] Why do you want to have children in somewhere that is mad, evil ... and about to be destroyed? [595] There's a sort of sense that all those places are kind of unreal places, aren't they? [596] Before they get destroyed. [597] So Nick is a little defensive. [598] I hope we'll stay here. [599] That is he's answering in a sense George's question. [600] Why do you want to stay here? [601] O K erm, right we'll just finish it to up to where Martha comes in. [602] Erm at the bottom of the page then, George starts talking about Martha, Martha's father and it gets very funny this bit, very naughty. [603] Erm look, flip your eyes down the bottom of the speech on page thirty one what is erm amusing which bits are amusing and describe the humour in that speech there by George? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[604] Page thirty one or two? |
| (PS4R4) |
[605] One at the bottom. [606] ... Come on and we'll finish in time. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[607] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[608] How do you describe the humour there. [609] Running around absolutely in hysterics ? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[610] Sarcasm |
| (PS4R4) |
[611] No |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[612] Weird humour sort of |
| (PS4R4) |
[613] Weird humour, right. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[614] Cynical. |
| (PS4R4) |
[615] Cynical. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[616] Absurd. |
| (PS4R4) |
[617] Absurd, yes so which bit would you say is absurd? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[618] The bit about everyone [...] in the [...] in a dinner queue . |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[619] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[620] In a dinner queue yes, someone collapsing and dying in the dinner queue is rather absurd and it's also very |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[621] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[622] It's not happy is it? [623] What kind of humour is it? |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[624] Black humour. |
| (PS4R4) |
[625] Black yes, exactly. [626] The the best bit I think is when he says that the erm we make excellent [laughing] fertiliser [] , right at the bottom there. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[627] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[628] O K, over the page. [629] He then starts talking about Martha's father, who was not going to die apparently. [630] Martha's father has the same [...] of those Micronesian tortoises, sort of run for ages and ages and in fact he says he's over two hundred years old. [631] Erm, ah we haven't quite got to it. [632] Right, so how does [...] . [633] How does George feel about Martha's father and how does this illustrate it? [634] ... To say that Martha's father going to live for ever. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[635] Dominating. |
| (PS4R4) |
[636] Yes dominating him, exactly, towering over him. [637] Going on for ever and ever. [638] Can't get rid of him, yeah and that fits in with what we were saying the other day about the Freudian kind of relation between the three of them. [639] Nick mean er sorry George needs to in a sense replace Martha's father. [640] Erm the only way he is going to be able to do that is when his dead. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[641] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[642] Spoke in terms of his career and in terms of his marriage. |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[643] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[644] And the very last point. [645] ... I think I mentioned it before, if you didn't get it down then, just put a jot down now. [646] There's this interest in on 's part, in how the two sexes communicate. [647] A across the sexes and B amongst themselves and here George goes on. [648] One of the things I do not know about them, that's women, is what they talk about and why the men are talking. [649] I must find out some time. [650] Alright, so there's this interest in what women talk about when they're by themselves and when Martha comes down, she wants to know what the men have been talking about as well. [651] So it is a very clear interest and that should remind you of who. [652] Somebody else you've studied, I know, you did it with me. [653] Interest in gender, interest in what [...] talk about [...] me, yes |
| Unknown speaker (JSTPSUNK) |
[654] [...] . |
| (PS4R4) |
[655] and then Martha's voice, what do you want, with a not very good American accent and that's it. [656] Right, thank you very much. |