| PS5AX | Ag2 | f | (Liz, age 30+, lecturer) unspecified |
| K60PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| K60PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1] [reading book] The clergy daughters' school at Cowan Bridge ... run by the Reverend William . [2] Charles and Emily followed a couple of months later. [3] Maria was eleven, Elizabeth, nine, Charlotte, eight, and Emily, six. [4] [clears throat] ... But the Reverend was fiercely repressive of the children's spirit, the food was very poor ... and the girls were often starved ... and ... cold [] . [5] Well starved and stark because |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[6] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[7] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[8] [...] starved at least. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[9] Erm, I'm sure ... erm ... Abby is, is supposed to be a fairly accurate representation of what it was like at school. [10] [reading] Maria developed T B, and died at home in eighteen twenty five, aged twelve. [11] And Elizabeth, a month later aged ten. [12] And then their father brought Charlotte and Emily home for good. [13] The four children invented imaginary countries and characters and threw themselves fiercely into it. [14] With Branwell and Charlotte especially er, developing a country called Angria. [15] And Emily and Anne, a country called Gondal. [16] In eighteen thirty one Charlotte was sent to the, to Roe Head School at Murfield She was at first homesick, but eventually carried off three prizes. [17] She left the following year having exhausted all the tuition the school could offer. [18] In eighteen thirty five she returned as a teacher, her salary to pay for first Emily's, and then Anne's tuition there. [19] In eighteen thirty seven Emily became a governess, and then, so did Anne and Charlotte. [20] In forty one, Charlotte and Emily travelled to Brussels to become pupils at the [speaking french] Mes en des occasion pour les jeune desmoiselles Er, Charlotte fell in love with the principal, but he didn't reciprocate. [21] Erm ... and she returned, when she returned as a teacher without Emily ... in forty three. [22] And she returned home ... desolate the following year [] . [23] Er, I'm sure you remember about Anne's little ... erm, encounters and Thorpe Green, and how Branwell got into trouble. [24] [reading] Back home, together, finally, the sisters published their collective poems under the aliases of Currer Ellis, and Acton Bell in eighteen forty six. [25] Erm, in September eighteen forty eight, Branwell died of T B aged thirty one. [26] In December, Emily, aged thirty, and in May, forty nine, Anne aged twenty nine. [27] Charlotte was then left alone with her father. [28] She wrote Shirley, and Villette. [29] Became very well known, and a friend of Mrs Gaskell. [30] Married her father's curate, against his snobbish wishes, in eighteen fifty four ... the Reverend Arthur Bell Nicholls. [31] Honeymooned in Ireland where her husband came from. [32] And died almost certainly of excessive sickness in pregnancy aged thirty nine. [33] Er, her father lived on for another six years. [34] And Nicholls returned to his family home in Ireland. [35] The Professor was published posthumously in eighteen fifty seven [] . [36] I'm sure this is all very familiar territory. [37] [laugh] ... Brontes' lives are almost sort of erm ... part of British history aren't they? [38] [laughing] You know [] . [39] [clears throat] ... Right. [40] Erm ... Would anyone like to give us a plot resume in Jane Eyre? [41] ... I could read it from the Oxford |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[42] History of English Literature if nobody wants to do it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[43] Shall I read it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[44] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[45] [reading book] The heroine, a penniless orphan has been left to the care of her aunt, Mrs Reed. [46] Harsh and unsympathetic treatment rouses her defiant spirit and a passionate outbreak leads to her consignment to Lowood Institution. [47] There, consoled for the severity of the regime by the kindness of the superintendent Miss Temple, and a fellow orphan, Helen Burns ... she dies in Jane's arms of, who dies in Jane's arms of consumption ... she spends her miserable years, eventually becoming a teacher. [48] On Miss Temple's marriage, she obtains a post as governess at Thornfield Hall, to Adele the illegitimate daughter of Mr Rochester, a Byronic hero of grim aspect and sardonic temper. [49] Rochester, despite Jane's plainness, is fascinated by her sharp wit and independence, and they fall in love. [50] After much resistance, she agrees to marry him. [51] But |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[52] on the eve of their wedding her wedding veil is rent by an intruder, who Rochester assures her is a servant Grace Poole ... but who is the next day revealed to be his mad Creole wife Bertha, confined to the upper regions of the hall for years, whose unseen presence has long disturbed Jane. [53] The marriage ceremony is interrupted by Mrs Rochester's brother from the West Indies. [54] And despite Rochester's full confession and pleadings with Jane to stay with him, she flees. [55] After nearly perishing on the moors, she is taken in and cared for by the Reverend St John Rivers and his sisters Mary and Diana. [56] It is, emerges that they are her cousins and that Jane has inherited money from an uncle. [57] The legacy is equally divided between the four. [58] Under pressure from earnest appeals and strong personality of the dedicated Rivers, Jane nearly consents to marry him and share his missionary vocation in India, but is prevented by a telepathic appeal from Rochester. [59] She returns to Thornfield Hall to find the building burned, and Rochester blinded and maimed from his attempt to save his wife from the flames. [60] She marries him, and in the last chapter we learn that his sight is partially restored [] . [61] I know it's always the way with plot resumes, but there are actually one or two minor mistakes there aren't there? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[62] I found one |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[63] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[64] immediately! [65] Well I may say so. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[66] Yes do. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[67] [clears throat] ... I understood Rochester said to Jane ... that he wasn't sure ... er, his French [...] had spent so many |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[68] Mhm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[69] men that he, he didn't even know if it was his. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[70] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[71] And I had the impression that, he just adopted this child through sheer sorrow and sympathy for her ... but, did not say, erm, categorically ... that that was his. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[72] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[73] He calls her his board. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[74] Erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[75] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[76] yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[77] I mean, that could of been er er, an element of Victorian proprietary in there. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[78] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[79] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[80] But, he, he, does make it plain to Jane that he doesn't know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[81] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[82] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[83] if Adele is his daughter? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[84] And this one says, quite emphatically, that is ... was. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[85] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[86] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[87] That's right. [88] Also, Helen Burns isn't an orphan ... if you remember. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[89] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[90] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[91] She's actually got a father. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[92] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[93] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[94] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[95] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[96] And actually, er, it doesn't, it implies that her ... it's, of the Lowood [...] , but in fact er ... it improved because they had an outbreak of erm ... typhus didn't they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[97] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[98] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[99] I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[100] And it er, wasn't |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[101] th |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[102] so bad as she grew older. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[103] That's right. [104] I, I don't think I would say |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[105] eight years of misery. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[106] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[107] No |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[108] No I |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[109] It became tolerable didn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[110] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[111] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[112] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[113] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[114] And also, it implies at, at the end that erm, Jane and Rochester meet at Thornfield Hall, and they don't, they meet Ferndean. [115] His other property if you remember? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[116] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[117] When er, when ... he goes to live afterwards. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[118] Yes. [119] I mean, I know it's hard ... it's hard doing ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[120] Yes! [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[121] And she wasn't going to marry, she never really considered marrying Rivers did she? [122] It said she was on the verge of marriage. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[123] I heard she [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[124] She was almost |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[125] Er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[126] hypnotized |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[127] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[128] by him. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[129] She was, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[130] Yeah. [131] You know |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[132] She was almost on the verge of just letting her will be subsumed into his wasn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[133] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[134] Which would have meant marriage because he would have |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[135] But not to marry |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[136] insisted. [137] Well I think he would have |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[138] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[139] insisted. [140] Er, she didn't want to, no. [141] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[142] Who would? [143] He was such a pompous pig anyway! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[144] He was terrible wasn't he? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[145] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[146] Erm, I'm sure you ... know of this novel anyway, but just in case you don't, Jean Rhys ... er has written Wide Sargasso Sea. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[147] Telling the story, as she imagined it of the mad wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[148] Oh! [149] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[150] Before she came, before she knew Rochester. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[151] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[152] And her marriage with Rochester. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[153] Sorry! [154] What was that book? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[155] Wide Sargasso Sea. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[156] Wide Sargasso Sea. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[157] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[158] Jean Rhys. [159] [spelling] R H Y S [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[160] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[161] Oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[162] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[163] And if you're interested in spin-offs, from stories, I can think it's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[164] It's a very nice book. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[165] It is, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[166] It gives a, it gives an idea of erm ... what Rochester did want. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[167] Exactly. [168] It put Bertha's case. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[169] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[170] Doesn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[171] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[172] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[173] It does. [174] And that one |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[175] too. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[176] Right. [177] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[178] Do you mean the story in the book before when you were talking about |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[179] I don't think it's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[180] that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[181] Jean Rhys |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[182] Jean Rhys wrote |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[183] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[184] a separate novel |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[185] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[186] telling ... taking a character out of Jane Eyre |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[187] The maddened wife? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[188] the mad wife |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[189] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[190] and imagining what her life was like before she married him. [191] Erm ... the novel, the second ... preface ... the second edition of the novel was dedicated to William Thackeray who Charlotte admired tremendously. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[192] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[193] With a ... sort of ... tragic turn of fate, she did not know he had a mad wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[194] Erm ... erm, and er, I don't know whether Thackeray ... presumably he realized she didn't know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[195] Well in the third one she does mention er, this explanation was served directly by mistake should [...] been made. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[196] Ah! [197] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[198] So, possibly ... she's ... faced that. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[199] Yes. [200] Erm, the no the reception of the novel. [201] [reading] It was published in eighteen forty seven, in October, under the name Currer Bell. [202] The second edition was printed two months later, and the third, the following spring. [203] She achieved popular success at once. [204] And it was ... claimed as powerful, fresh, original, vigorous and truthful. [205] She was amir admired by English and French critics as well as the reading public. [206] Although, some critics termed the novel coarse ... meaning different things, some of them. [207] Some meant, outspoken ... frank, too frank ... the inappropriate placing of passion in a poor plain girl's mouth [] . [208] Now, if that wasn't what Charlotte Bronte was pleading for, I don't know what it was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[209] [reading] And, that the novel attacked both propriety and the upper classes quite needlessly [] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[210] Erm, there are a few interesting quotations on the reception of the novel. [211] One or two people who are always worth hearing if you ... can bear with me. [212] ... Thackeray. [213] Writing to ... erm, W S Williams, a friend. [214] [reading letter in book] I wish you hadn't sent me Jane Eyre! [215] It interested me so much that I've lost, or won, if you like, the whole day of reading it at the busiest period with the printers I know, waiting for copy! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[216] Who the author can be, I can't guess. [217] If a woman, she knows her language better than most ladies do, or has had a classical education. [218] It is a fine book, though. [219] The man and woman capital, a style very generous and upright, so to speak. [220] I thought it was kingly for some time. [221] The plot of the story is one with which I am familiar. [222] Some of the love passages made me cry ... to the astonishment of John who came in with the coals. [223] St John, the missionary is a failure I think ... but a good failure. [224] There are parts, excellent. [225] I don't know why I tell you this, but that I have been exceedingly moved and pleased by Jane Eyre. [226] It is a woman's writing, but whose? [227] Give my respect and thanks to the author, whose novel is the first English one ... and the French are only romances now, that I have been able to read for many a day [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[228] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[229] Erm ... the next one comes from The Spectator Magazine. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[230] [clears throat] ... [reading magazine] Essentially, Jane Eyre, an autobiography, has some resemblance to those sculptures of the middle ages in which considerable ability, both mechanical and mental, was often displayed upon subjects that had no existence in nature. [231] And as far as delicacy was concerned were not pleasing in themselves. [232] There is indeed none of their literal impossibilities or grotesqueness. [233] We do not meet the faces of foxes or writers under clerical hoods, neither is there anything of physical grossness. [234] But with clear conceptions distinctly presented ... a metaphysical consistency in the characters and their conduct, and considerable power in the execution, the whole is unnatural, and only critically interesting. [235] There is one fault too, in Jane Eyre, from which the artists of the middle ages were free, too much of artifice. [236] Their mastery of their art was too great to induce them to resort to trick to tell their story. [237] In the fiction edited by Currer Bell, there is rather too much of this. [238] Dialogues are carried on to tell the reader something he must know, or to infuse into him some explanations of a writer. [239] Persons act not as they would act probably in life, but enable to do the, to, but enable to author to do a bit of writing. [240] Everything is made to change just in the nick of time, and even the return letter office suspends its laws that Jane Eyre may carry on a tale with effect. [241] The fiction belongs to that school where minute anatomy of the mind predominates over incidents. [242] The last being made subordinate to description or the display of character. [243] A story which contains nothing beyond itself is a very narrow representation of human life. [244] Jane Eyre is this. [245] If we admit it to be true ... but its truth is not probable in the principal incidence, and still less in the manner in which the characters influence the incidents, so as to produce conduct. [246] There is a low tone of behaviour, rather of morality in the book. [247] And what is worse than all, neither the heroine nor hero attracts sympathy. [248] The reader cannot see anything lovable in Mr Rochester, nor why he should be so deeply in love with Jane Eyre. [249] So that we have intense emotion without cause. [250] The book, however, displays considerable skill in the plan on great power, but rather shown in the writing than the matter, and this vigour sustains a species of interest to the last. [251] Although minute, and somewhat sordid, the first act of a fiction is the most truthful, especially the scenes at the philanthropic school. [252] There are many parts of greater energy in Jane Eyre, than, none equal to the following [] and the quotation is the death of Helen Burns. [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[253] Oh yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[254] Oh! [255] What a jaundiced criticism! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[256] Ooh! [257] Terrible! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[258] That's The Spectator magazine. [259] That's the one that Jane Eyre, er not Jane Eyre, Jane Austen attacks in Northanger Abbey. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[260] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[261] Erm ... that's the one that, wanted respectability, acceptance amongst respectable citizens, very much ... and said that it would never print anything that would bring a blush to the cheek of a young |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[262] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[263] girl. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[264] So that's The Spectator for you. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[265] But Rochester did er [clears throat] ... did er, when he was trying to ... rebuke himself ... for committing what was bigamy, and ... the works, he said, when he compared his own wife, who was really a mental animal because she very bestial the way she bit people, and then, he compared her with this sweet, dewy-eyed ... Jane, he did give a reason didn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[266] He did. [267] Actually I don't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[268] You know. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[269] think that's the best reason. [270] I don't think he could only |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[271] He was very attracted to her simplicity, and goodness. [272] She was very good. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[273] She was, but |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[274] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[275] it's like that argument, that, when you look for a marriage partner you're either looking for somebody to re if you're a woman, to replicate your father, or to be |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[276] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[277] the total opposite of them. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[278] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[279] Either way, you are totally bound by what |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[280] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[281] your father is. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[282] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[283] And it seems to me that in looking for ... in Rochester da Rochester's admission that he wants a woman who is opposite from Bertha |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[284] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[285] he's still tied to his first wife. [286] He's got to come to learn to appreciate Jane for herself ... not because she isn't what Bertha is. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[287] Oh well, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[288] And he was he wasn't cast er, sort of er, trying to convince her, not forcibly, that erm, you know, she should bend the rules and, and be his wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[289] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[290] You know, in other words |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[291] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[292] forget all your principles and marry me because er ... she is an animal. [293] You know |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[294] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[295] and you must accept the fact that she's an animal knowing that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[296] But not |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[297] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[298] realizing that that would change what she loved. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[299] Yes. [300] Absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[301] I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[302] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[303] [...] a very different person. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[304] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[305] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[306] I mean |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[307] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[308] Jane being Jane would never, never have done it. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[309] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[310] And it's only because you said, previously ... er, that she was a sort of feminist ... that when, he said do this do that and she said very frankly to him ... do you think just because I'm going to marry you I shall commit [...] ? [311] Did you re did you see that? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[312] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[313] Now if you hadn't have said so Liz I wouldn't have realized that she was trying to, you know, er probe her individuality and er ... women had a ... a place. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[314] I don't, I don't think a |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[315] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[316] I don't think the word erm ... erm ... tt! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[317] Feminism? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[318] Feminism can be applied because ... if, |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[319] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[320] she has kept the character and principle |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[321] tha that make ... that make her take those particular roles that she does. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[322] There is one passage in which she erm ... pleads for women not to be kept in such narrow confines, social confines that their matters |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[323] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[324] are not only making puddings and sewing blankets |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[325] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[326] and that sort of thing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[327] And when he tries to take [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[328] When he tries to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[329] When she wants to be an equal. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[330] [...] , she she |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[331] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[332] just wants to go there as an equal |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[333] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[334] and he refuses point blank to accept that! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[335] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[336] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[337] You know, she's got |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[338] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[339] to come as his wife. [340] He gets really ... you know, into a paddy almost! [341] I think I can |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[342] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[343] almost see him sort of getting more and more annoyed just because she won't accept what he says. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[344] Well because he's |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[345] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[346] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[347] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[348] She's challenging his er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[349] This is St John? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[350] standards. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[351] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[352] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[353] He's very authoritarian. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[354] It does remark |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[355] He is indeed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[356] quite early in the book that there was a certain coldness about his Christianity. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[357] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[358] And he, she said, she wasn't quite sure that it was a warmth or a ... a real passion for |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[359] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[360] human beings, it was just a ... almost clinical, I think it used the word there. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[361] Yes. [362] St John's Christianity is |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[363] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[364] absolutely |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[365] And a need for a power. [366] I mean, that's why he's presumably chosen what he wants to do, and th and the description at the end ... of the way he ... he led his life while he was ... overseas ... [laughing] quite incredible [] ! [367] I mean, everybody a o clearly had to jump to his tune! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[368] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[369] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[370] You think of these |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[371] I wouldn't say very much |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[372] better than the erm, what his name? [373] The early one who goes to erm Lowood, you know, and er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[374] Brocklehurst. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[375] Brocklehurst. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[376] What's his name? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[377] Oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[378] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[379] He was a tyrant! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[380] Yes he was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[381] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[382] They actually described erm, in term |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[383] he, when Jane first sees Brocklehurst she sees him |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[384] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[385] she's a child of ten if you remember |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[386] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[387] and she looked on it, he's like a black granite pillar. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[388] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[389] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[390] With a sort of totem face |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[391] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[392] stuck on top. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[393] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[394] She looks all the way up at him ... cos she's only |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[395] Ominous. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[396] [...] . [397] Erm, St John, towards the end of the novel is described as erm ... he, when he's asked Jane and she pleads for quarter of hour's time to think |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[398] Mhm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[399] about going to India with him as his wife ... he goes and lays down like a, a granite pillar |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[400] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[401] she said, on the grass. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[402] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[403] And I think they're, they're linked ... by imagery, Brocklehurst and St John. [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[404] What I couldn't understand was that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[405] I was fascinated |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[406] that when |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[407] Sorry! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[408] when she said er ... erm, you know, he said you're not fit for love! [409] But then he, he insisted that she was gonna be his wife, which obviously, it was like a pent up frustration in him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[410] But she was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[411] pretty ... he, he wanted a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[412] Yes, but I, I got the impression he wanted her body! [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[413] And, and that's the only reason why he wanted her there, that's the only reason why he could not accept her as a friend or an, as a companion. [414] And as a [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[415] [...] a man when she meets him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[416] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[417] But, thought he was a nasty thing |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[418] [clears throat] ... We'll confuse |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[419] [laugh] ... One at a time! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[420] I think quite a lot of it, erm, books haven't mentioned this er frustrated erm feeling in the grant is that she's come out [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[421] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[422] er er, erm ... that's true enough. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[423] Yes. [424] And I think the girls definitely saw, much that they loved Patrick, they definitely, their Branwell I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[425] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[426] erm, they saw him being ... indulged in a way they were not. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[427] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[428] If they'd been brought up all, all girls ... maybe their fiction would have been different. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[429] Erm, I was talking more about frustrated sexual erm ... er ... feelings that er, they weren't allowed to ... you know, let go and ... in their way of life. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[430] No! [431] I don't think there was any way in which, to let go. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[432] That, er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[433] At all. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[434] no. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[435] Except in these fantasies in which they let |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[436] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[437] all, they, they |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[438] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[439] all sorts of feelings. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[440] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[441] And their, their erm ... Angria and Gondal, these erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[442] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[443] countries, they invented. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[444] Well some of them are [...] then aren't they really. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[445] I thought that St John |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[446] was madly in love with the other girl. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[447] Yes he was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[448] The problem was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[449] Yes. [450] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[451] He was, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[452] I thought, if he had any passion it was directed to her, not ... I don't think he had it ... and Jane. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[453] He, he |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[454] I think it was a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[455] He got fifteen minutes in the [...] of acting. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[456] I think it was a power struggle. [457] I think Jane, nobody, he'd not had a woman stand up to him like that before |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[458] Mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[459] and he wanted to own it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[460] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[461] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[462] That's the only way to quell it isn't it? [463] Is to own it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[464] The master. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[465] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[466] The master. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[467] In any case, it was all so impersonal. [468] Wi he, he needed a helpmate |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[469] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[470] and, cos she, if she wasn't going to marry him cos he was far too vain ... he couldn't have her. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[471] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[472] And she was reasonably bright, she could take his ideas and, and ... be a reasonable companion to him, er er, in his, in his [...] partner ... duty. [473] So she'd, she'd do. [474] She can come. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[475] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[476] She, she was co she coming! [477] You know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[478] But was she playing? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[479] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[480] No. [481] I don't think she was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[482] She, she'd been told by the Reeds that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[483] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[484] she was threatened |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[485] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[486] Well |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[487] and so she always thought she was threatened. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[488] Didn't er, Rochester |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[489] But Rochester didn't, er ... didn't think she was playing. [490] He thought, she had a, a gentleness and a grace. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[491] Yes. [492] But |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[493] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[494] there is a difference, a difference |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[495] though I expect it [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[496] that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[497] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[498] and prettiness. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[499] Yes. [500] But |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[501] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[502] what is prettiness? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[503] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[504] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[505] It's in the eye of the beholder. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[506] Yeah. [507] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[508] I was gonna say that. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[509] Would you like to hear George Eliot's brief comment? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[510] Ooh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[511] In a letter to chap called Charles Bray. [512] [reading book] I have read Jane Eyre, mon ami, and shall be glad to know what you admire in it? [513] All self sacrifice is good, but one could like it to be in a somewhat nobler cause than that of a diabolical law which chains a man body and soul to a putrefying carcass [] . [514] Of which I think she means Bertha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[515] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[516] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[517] [reading] However, the book is interesting. [518] Only, I wish the characters would talk a little less like the heros and heroines of police reports [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[519] Oh that's quite [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[520] Before we go onto [...] that, erm ... how far do you think Jane Eyre supported this idea? [521] I mean, she sort of flew the kite as it were with ... you know, if the wife was erm ... presumably the husband in other cases ... was mad beyond belief it was a good reason for ... casting her off. [522] How far do you think she went along with it? [523] I mean, she could have been er ... in love with Rochester but ... it looks to me like a beginning of an idea, you know, that er ... there are circumstances in which she er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[524] In which divorce would be possible? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[525] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[526] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[527] Do you think she supported it? [528] Or do you think she just ... put it there for the argument? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[529] I think she |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[530] To go with the character. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[531] erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[532] I mean Bertha represents ... erm ... the dark side, if you like, of Rochester's life. [533] You have a contrast between Rochester and St John Rivers ... don't you? [534] As the two |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[535] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[536] men who proposed to Jane. [537] And you have Rochester who has ... erm ... he's not exactly been a degenerate ... and he has shown some restraint, he has cared for this wife, he's brought her home. [538] And he's cared for this ... offspring. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[539] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[540] Which may or may not |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[541] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[542] be his offspring. [543] And at the end he shows enormous ... courage |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[544] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[545] when he tries to rescue her from the fire. [546] But ... Bertha, if you like, represents the erm ... the unfettered side of Rochester's ... lust ... passion, if you like. [547] Er, whereas St John is as ... tightly controlled as a ... as a strong elastic band isn't he? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[548] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[549] Everything is held in like this with St John. [550] With Rochester it's been let go. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[551] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[552] Mhm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[553] Erm ... I mean, I've ... personally, I think the novel is actually a journey. [554] Erm ... I think that Jane's ... erm ... journey towards independence ... is ... erm ... where she ... moving towards a position where, if you achieve a certain kind of independence, you can then choose to give it up. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[555] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[556] And that's what she does. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[557] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[558] It's not worth giving it up if you haven't chosen to give it up. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[559] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[560] Mhm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[561] It's a bit like being erm ... you know, you know, a Christian isn't it? [562] Free born. [563] It's only ... worth it ... if it's personal, if you choose it. [564] It isn't worth it if it was foisted on you, or you inherited ... it's got to be a personal thing. [565] Erm ... so I think Jane's is a ... erm ... a spiritual journey ... with a psychological ... basis. [566] That link between childhood and adulthood ... that she shows ... that childhood terrors ... can affect ... adult biases, opinions. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[567] Now, in this introduction of this |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[568] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[569] this is an old er ... er Penguin. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[570] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[571] It, it says, almost what you're saying. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[572] Oh does it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[573] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[574] Oh! [575] That's nice to know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[576] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[577] yes. [578] It says erm ... [reading book] The theme is an urgently felt personal one, an exploration of how a woman comes to maturity in the world of the writer's youth [] . [579] Er, erm, it goes on to explain, but I don't want to |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[580] bother you. [581] But, er similar ... similar |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[582] Oh! [583] That's ... thank you. [584] It's always nice to know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[585] people agree with you isn't it? [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[586] I once [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[587] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[588] for her |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[589] Mm? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[590] Mrs [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[591] you know, the er wife of the famous er ... literary critic. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[592] Queenie Leavis. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[593] Oh yes! [594] Que Queenie Leavis. [595] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[596] Queenie Leavis. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[597] She wrote the foreword. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[598] Oh did she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[599] Yes. [600] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[601] Ah well. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[602] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[603] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[604] Well there you are! [605] Two minds, great minds. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[606] Yes, that's right. [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[607] If you, if you look at all the men in the this book, I mean, to begin with the erm ... cousin, the boy ... when she |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[608] Horrible! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[609] was a child |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[610] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[611] John Rivers. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[612] was a horrible thing |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[613] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[614] in this story. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[615] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[616] And the girl. [617] And then the erm ... previous ... you know, the erm ... he, he was a revolting character ... and, Rochester, of course, she didn't stay friends with. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[618] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[619] Erm, and then, and then you get erm, Rivers, who's also a horrible character, although in a different way. [620] Erm, they ... you wouldn't, you know, you'd imagine she didn't have a very opinion of ... the [laughing] male sex altogether wouldn't you [] ? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[621] Yes. [622] You would. [623] Erm ... and you'd thi I mean, [sigh] it's also true that she didn't know many. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[624] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[625] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[626] That's true. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[627] I mean, she knew, her brother |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[628] [...] isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[629] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[630] her father |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[631] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[632] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[633] and erm ... I mean there was th the curate who that she eventually married ... but, really they wouldn't know, they wouldn't have any male friends. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[634] But she made up her mind, didn't she, that ... she had to publish this book under a man's name? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[635] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[636] So she must have been really, had really deep feelings about what was going on in society ... and why she should do that. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[637] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[638] You know, I mean, er, that is why it's all coming out in the books, that's why the, all these men, she's sort of saying I'll get my own back now, you know! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[639] I can have anything I want ... amongst |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[640] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[641] these vicious, nasty brutes [...] ... not, yeah because |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[642] That they [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[643] she realized how she was living. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[644] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[645] If they're brought up, I mean,th the child at the beginning is more sinned against than sinning, it's not his fault he's a pain in the backside, it's his brother! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[646] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[647] It's him! [648] He's the one er ... a pa re ... well or a as you say, Branwell was the same, brought up, he was spoiled rotten! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[649] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[650] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[651] And how can you expect to turn out reasonable? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[652] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[653] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[654] So,sa her comment probably is ... erm ... on the upbringing rather than anything else. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[655] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[656] I mean, she doesn't mention this specifically, but, I mean, [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[657] But Mrs Kissett |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[658] Though there's a certain amount of indulgence with boys. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[659] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[660] You know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[661] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[662] Oh! [663] In, then there was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[664] Probably knocked the top off the tree. [665] Oh! [666] He's a boy, type |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[667] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[668] of thing, you know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[669] Make them feel that they're treated as different. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[670] So I can see, you know, [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[671] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[672] You know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[673] It's interesting that he dies, as well Branwell. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[674] Yes. [675] In the end. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[676] There are |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[677] So |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[678] so in the end she got her come-uppance. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[679] [laughing] They all get |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[680] Well |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[681] their come-uppance [] ! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[682] they do in spite |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[683] Er, Mrs Grant er, absolutely spoilt her own girls ... which she knows ... you know |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[684] Mrs Reed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[685] Mrs Reed |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[686] Mrs Reed |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[687] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[688] didn't she? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[689] She did, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[690] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[691] Oh well. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[692] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[693] And, whereas, her father he, he didn't think of much of the girls at all did he? [694] Ca and it was all for the son. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[695] Erm, I think he became very proud of Charlotte. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[696] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[697] Erm, but I think he tended to leave the bringing up of the girls to his sister-in-law. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[698] Oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[699] Eileen. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[700] Er, and ... I mean, as was conventional in those days, you educate, your sons went to school ... and you try and, educated your girls at home, but the, the aunt put her foot down and said she wouldn't do it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[701] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[702] Aunt Branwell. [703] So that's why the girls went to Cowan Bridge. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[704] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[705] but, yes, I mean, he was launched into several different careers by his father with money he could ill spare. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[706] Course! [707] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[708] Really. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[709] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[710] But erm ... that didn't, no, that wasn't on offer for the girls. [711] It wasn't available. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[712] Well that came up in Anne ... in Anne Bronte's book as well didn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[713] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[714] You know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[715] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[716] the position of women, I mean, they ... they were obviously all kicking against it, and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[717] They were, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[718] Helen Huntingdon's statement |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[719] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[720] to Gilbert Markenham, his mother |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[721] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[722] Yes, that happened. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[723] that you would have boys go out with no forewarning, tripping over ... stumbling blocks here, there and everywhere and girls who are not even allowed to benefit ... from others' experience, let alone, have their own. [724] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[725] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[726] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[727] Erm ... [clears throat] ... having said that I think the novel is al is a spiritual journey ... erm ... not only Jane's, I should say, but also Rocheter Rochester's. [728] Erm, and I think it's also a journey towards independence, and a journey fro towards belonging, if you like ... from being an outcast ... to belonging. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[729] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[730] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[731] Er, she is ... unwanted, because she's different, because she's alien ... as a child, isn't she? [732] In the Reed's household. [733] She says, as an adult, looking back, I know why they didn't want me. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[734] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[735] I was so different. [736] And why they didn't like me. [737] Erm ... and that's, of course, why she's so delighted when she finds ... that the Rivers are her relations. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[738] Mhm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[739] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[740] Er, and can share her, er, legacy with them. [741] Erm ... and then, of course, in the end ... she belongs entirely to Rochester. [742] And that's a free ... gift isn't it? [743] No, that's got horrible commercial overtones! [744] I don't mean that. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[745] I mean, it's a, a gift freely given. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[746] He, he's brought her free choice. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[747] Yes. [748] It seems to me that she's also saying, it's also a plea, on Charlotte Bronte's behalf to men, to want women who come to them ... developed, independent ... and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[749] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[750] choose to give it up, as must the man, in |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[751] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[752] marriage. [753] Don't you, almost, you can almost hear behind the text saying, wouldn't you rather have a woman like that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[754] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[755] than a woman who's always been either under her father's thumb, or brother's thumb, and then gets passed to yours? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[756] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[757] Wouldn't you rather have a woman with a mind of her own? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[758] Yes. [759] Er, oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[760] Can't say no to this [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[761] Depends on the men. [762] I don't think in those days they wanted women with minds of their own, did they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[763] Well, er St John certainly didn't! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[764] I would. [765] I would. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[766] [laugh] ... No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[767] Oh. [768] Right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[769] Erm ... speaking |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[770] Rochester realizes her worth ... doesn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[771] He does, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[772] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[773] Very much so. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[774] He does. [775] Yes. [776] Erm ... and they are both |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[777] passionate ... people. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[778] Mm. [779] And he was very changed. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[780] Yes. [781] He was. [782] He changed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[783] He almost bu became very humble and grateful, of course. [784] Cos she looked after him so |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[785] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[786] but he was very arrogant in the beginning. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[787] Erm, let's look at a few quotations. [788] ... Er, I don't suppose anybody's got the copy I've got ... which is from a jumble sale. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[789] Erm, the Zodiac Press. [790] I've never heard of it before, but |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[791] No? [792] No, right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[793] So we are the end of chapter six. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[794] I've just got that, chapter six. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[795] The end, the end. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[796] Paragraph beginning, Helena speaking ... She has been, been unkind to you. [797] Right at the end, last page. [798] ... Yes? [799] Are we all there? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[800] Jane has just told ... Helen Burns her story. [801] And I think she's just been erm ... has she been humiliated by him yet? [802] No. [803] Perhaps she hasn't. [804] Erm, [reading book] Well, I asked impatiently, is not Mrs Reed a hard-hearted bad woman [] ? [805] And Helen replies, [reading] she has been unkind to you, no doubt because, you see, she dislikes your cast of character as Miss Scatcherd does mine. [806] But, how minutely, you remember all she has done and said to you. [807] What a singularly deep impression her injustice seems to have made on your heart. [808] No ill-usage so brands its record on my feelings. [809] Would you not be happier if you tried to forget her severity, together with the passionate emotions if excited? [810] Life appears to me too short to be spent in nursing animosity or registering wrongs. [811] We are, and must be, one and all, burdened with faults in this world. [812] But the time will soon come when I trust we shall put them off in putting off our corruptible bodies, when debasement and sin will fall from us with this cumbrous frame of flesh and only the spark of the spirit will remain. [813] The impalpable principle of life and thought, pure as when it left the creator to inspire the creature. [814] Whence it came it will return, perhaps again, to be communicated to some being higher than man, perhaps to pass through gradations of glory from the pale human soul to brighten the seraph. [815] Surely, it will never, on the contrary be suffered to je to degenerate from man to fiend? [816] No, I cannot believe that. [817] I hold another creed, which no one ever taught me ... and which I seldom mention, but in which I delight and to which I cling, for it extends hope to all, it makes eternity a rest ... a mighty home, not a terror and an abyss. [818] Besides, with this creed I can so clearly distinguish between the criminal and his crime, I can so sincerely forgive the first, while I abhor the last ... with this creed revenge never worries my heart, degradation never too deeply disgusts me, injustice never crushes me too low, I live in calm looking to the end [] . [819] Now, we've seen Jane as a passionate, spirited ... outspoken little girl haven't we? [820] Quite justifiably ... I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[821] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[822] think. [823] She really has been treated badly at the Reeds. [824] And we're beginning to see her ... a co coming under Helen's influence. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[825] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[826] Being tempered by Helen. [827] I think the first evidence we have of that, is when ... Brocklehurst has placed her on the stool and publicly humiliated her. [828] And this Miss Temple asks her in her ... well in her own study, to tell her story. [829] And bearing in mind, Helen's advice ... she doesn't ... er, express all the resentment she once felt or se or the ... er, let her speech run away with her. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[830] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[831] And she is wholly believed because of that. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[832] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[833] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[834] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[835] In my book, the notes, er from out of this ... I have another ... a er ... ano I have [...] creed, it's got Charlotte Bronte's own belief. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[836] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[837] Yes. [838] And Anne's too, I think. [839] If you remember this, er, the death of erm ... Huntingdon? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[840] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[841] When the tenant of Wildfowl Hall |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[842] Mm. [843] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[844] But at er, Helen ... er ... fervently believed that his spirit would saved. [845] That the creator would not, what was the, the saying? [846] Dispense with anything he hath made. [847] But erm ... and, Charlotte believed it too, yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[848] Mm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[849] Yes? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[850] Seem to be, in all these novels though, runs outs, a lot on lists of er, middle [...] . [851] There's always this sermonizing isn't there? [852] You know, that it helping to sort of make the reader ... er, the thing about [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[853] Well, Christian virtues and duty were very closely erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[854] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[855] er, related in, in Victorian society, you know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[856] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[857] It's ... some aspired to them, and some hypocro hypocritically sat ... behind them. [858] Like Brocklehurst ... coming in and ... and penny-pinching about what the girls should have and then his wife and daughters come in dressed in velvets and furs and so on. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[859] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[860] And retribution very often comes, I think, in the books ... in this life ... as well, they, I mean, again in Middlemarch, I think you get your deserts don't you, and er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[861] You do. [862] Yes. [863] I mean, Helen Burn's plea here is ... not to be ... to eager for retribution to come in this life, but trust to it ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[864] In the next [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[865] well, not to come in the next, [laughing] but rather [] to ... you know, sort of leave it to a higher justice if you like. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[866] Cos she separated sin from the sinner in |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[867] Yes. [868] Exactly! [869] Yes. [870] Which she has to learn to do ... in |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[871] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[872] the case of Rochester isn't it? [873] She has to learn to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[874] separate his crime of attempted bigamy ... from his love for her. [875] Which she does. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[876] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[877] Helen, of course, is based on ... depiction of Helen, on Maria ... Bronte. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[878] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[879] The eldest girl who died when she was twelve. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[880] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[881] And who was a little mother |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[882] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[883] to the whole brood. [884] And they all where ... heartbroken |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[885] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[886] you know, when she died. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[887] Must have been absolutely shattering wouldn't it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[888] Erm ... right ... now, can ... following loosely this idea of spiritual development ... if you go to the end of chapter twenty four |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[889] That goes into volume two does it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[890] Er, I haven't got them divided into |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[891] Oh, mine are in volumes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[892] volumes in mine I'm afraid. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[893] Oh! [894] Well this isn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[895] Two hundred. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[896] It's two hundred. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[897] Have you got the same copy? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[898] Well mine's er, I've got three and then six. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[899] Yeah, have a look by all means, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[900] This is the ... [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[901] There's plenty there. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[902] Down there. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[903] Three O two, in wo one of them, the twenty fourth. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[904] [clears throat] Three O two. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[905] Yes. [906] Pardon? [907] Oh! [908] Ta. [909] Right. [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[910] The last, paragraph of the chapter, twenty four. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[911] This is a ... first period of courtship ... if you like. [912] Erm ... when ... ah, [sigh] ... Jane in a sense is having to keep his passion at bay, his impatience ... er, for their wedding at bay, by teasing him. [913] [reading book] Yet, after all, my task was not an easy one ... often I would rather have pleased than teased him. [914] My future husband was becoming to me my whole world, and more than the world, almost my hope of heaven. [915] He stood between me and every thought of religion as an eclipse intervenes between man and the broad sun. [916] I could not in those days, see God for his creature, of whom I had made an idol [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[917] Oh no! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[918] Danger ... isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[919] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[920] Those are the warning signs. [921] It's too much. [922] It's too much. [923] It can't, even had they married at this stage ... it would not have been right. [924] Even had he been unmarried. [925] Because Jane did not look on him ... as a, as a man but as an idol. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[926] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[927] She didn't know him well enough. [928] Er, and I think that's an interesting point ... that, where yo where, when you read the story and you think ... really what prevented them marrying ... happily then, was Bertha ... but it wasn't ... it was their attitudes to each other. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[929] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[930] Shall we break for a drink now? [931] And |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[932] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[933] erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[934] Mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[935] meet again at five to? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[936] Mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[937] Yes? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[938] [...] ... for the sake of recording? [939] We are |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[940] Erm ... we have ... St John's proposal to her. [941] Shall I read it very briefly it takes er time to ... to find it doesn't it? [942] Er ... [clears throat] ... she ... [...] ... but, as brother and sister ... erm ... [reading book] [reading] Simplify your complicated interest [] , St John says to her, [reading] feelings, thoughts, wishes, aims, merge all considerations in one purpose ... that of fulfilling with effect, with power, the mission of your great master. [943] To do so, you must have a coadjutor, not a brother, that is a loose tie, but a husband. [944] I too, do not want a sister, a sister might any day be taken from me. [945] I want a wife, the sole helpmeet I can influence efficiently in life and retain absolutely till death [] . [946] Well she describes that as like an iron shroud. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[947] Turning [...] . [948] And then a few pages on ... when she says, erm ... [reading book] we must abandon the scheme of marriage. [949] No! [950] It, said he, it is a long-cherished scheme and the only one which can secure my great end [] . [951] My great end? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[952] [reading] But I shall urge you no further at present tomorrow I leave for Cambridge. [953] I have many friends to whom I should wish to say farewell. [954] I shall be absent a fortnight. [955] Take that space of time to consider my offer, and do not forget that if you reject it, it is not me you deny, but God. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[956] Through my meanings, he opens to you a noble career, as my wife only can you enter upon it. [957] Refuse to be my wife and you limit yourself forever to a track of selfish ease and barren obscurity [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[958] If that isn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[959] Erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[960] erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[961] arrogance there. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[962] yes, religious arrogance, I don't know what is. [963] I mean ... he says he's ... he knows that he is ... erm ... poor material, that he's inadequate, inadequacies will be made up by God. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[964] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[965] But, if you reject it, but it's not me you deny, but God. [966] His ego is enormous! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[967] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[968] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[969] Beyond the truth. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[970] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[971] and ... it certainly makes you feel more favourably towards Rochester [laughing] doesn't it [] ? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[972] Yes I think so, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[973] Erm, but that is, in a sense, part of Jane's ... spiritual education isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[974] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[975] She has to learn to distinguish betwe sh to, to recognize the falseness of that statement. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[976] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[977] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[978] To sort God from St John Rivers ... if you like. [979] And she does. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[980] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[981] Mm mm mm. [982] Well she wants to be his curate, er, she does use the curate. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[983] She does, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[984] Yes. [985] And, erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[986] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[987] oh, I mean er, I know we can have different opinions on why we think St John is so adamant that she must be his wife ... I do think it's a power struggle. [988] I don't think he's come across any |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[989] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[990] so independently minded, as Jane. [991] And he can't erm ... he can't quite live with that. [992] He certainly isn't going to live with it independent. [993] He's going to have it under his thumb. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[994] [clears throat] ... It did rather stretch |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[995] But erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[996] my credulity ... when she wandered over the Moors and she was at death's door, and she [laughing] turned up at her cousins' |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[997] Well |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[998] hou house [] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[999] Yes. [1000] I mean it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1001] Is that, erm ... is, I mean we, we can look at that two ways, I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1002] is that divine intervention? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1003] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1004] Erm, coincidence? [1005] Or, as you say, beyond the bounds? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1006] Yes. [1007] But still it's all part of the [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1008] Well the psycho |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1009] Well the, the plot. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1010] the psychopathic communication at the end when they come together |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1011] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1012] again, I mean that ... is stretching the bounds the belief a bit far. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1013] Well that is er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1014] I mean,cle clearly |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1015] Yes, the voice of [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1016] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1017] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1018] Mind you, it, [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1019] Yes it did. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1020] Erm ... it, it, you know,th if she cle Charlotte Bronte clearly believes in divine intervention doesn't she? [1021] And in, in the context of what sh of what she was writing |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1022] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1023] and when she was writing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1024] Yeah, I think it's fair enough. [1025] I mean, it stretches our belief ... cos |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1026] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1027] [laughing] we don't believe that you can |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1028] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1029] hear voices up above. [] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1030] Is this the creed? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1031] I don't know. [1032] I [...] ... but I believe in telepathy. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1033] But of course, I, is that what |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1034] Yes I believe in telepathy, but I don't believe in ... in G and I shall come |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1035] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1036] to you and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1037] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1038] he heard the voice say |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1039] You can't, no |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1040] Oh no, not that both listened in at the time. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1041] Dorothy? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1042] Although, I do think that probably erm, religion at that time ... er, could have been this very narrow, rigid |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1043] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1044] kind of erm, idea. [1045] I mean, the church preached, probably ... erm ... this kind of religion, or some of the churches |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1046] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1047] did. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1048] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1049] You know, this sort puritan, I suppose erm ... you know, following the puritan tradition. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1050] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1051] But, they were very narrow, very rigid |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1052] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1053] and erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1054] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1055] cos you might say, that it was all for the ... sort of, poor old pe people ... down. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1056] Ooh, you could certainly say that, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1057] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1058] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1059] But in the middle of this we've still got a fairly young woman with vivid imagination. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1060] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1061] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1062] We have. [1063] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1064] Yes. [1065] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1066] And strong feeling. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1067] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1068] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1069] Yeah. [1070] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1071] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1072] Erm, in a sense you have, it, it's, it's erm a ... a spiral construction isn't it? [1073] A sort of, a triangular if you like ... you start off with one position, represented by Rochester, which is, too much passion, uncontrollable passion |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1074] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1075] almost. [1076] I mean,a apart from Bertha, I know he was tricked into it by his father and brother, that marriage, but he |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1077] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1078] surely wouldn't have gone through it if Bertha hadn't appealed to him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1079] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1080] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1081] Erm, if he hadn't wanted her, at least, at first . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1082] Well Jean Rhys ... says that she's a beauty. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1083] Yes. [1084] Absolutely! [1085] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1086] But she also had a big dowry. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1087] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1088] Well that was the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1089] the father and brother who saw |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1090] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1091] that didn't they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1092] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1093] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1094] There was [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1095] and then he has erm, erm ... Madame Varens, doesn't he? [1096] Adele's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1097] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1098] mother. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1099] Yes. [1100] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1101] And, or Mademoiselle. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1102] Yes, that's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1103] And then Clara, and er, somebody's else's name I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1104] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1105] can't remember. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1106] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1107] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1108] Erm ... and ... then we come, as it were, to the second position which is St John Rivers |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1109] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1110] who actually does fall in love who would have him |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1111] Oh! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1112] and suppresses ... er Rosamond Oliver, suppresses that totally in his nature. [1113] Erm, for his religious mission. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1114] Mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1115] And then you come to Rochester at the end ... erm ... oh well, I mean, without finding quotations ... erm ... he is the synthesis isn't it? [1116] He is the meeting of the two points. [1117] He |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1118] Mm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1119] is erm ... you know, the, the ... the one erring lamb, if you like, that comes back. [1120] And erm ... I mean, accepts Jane, and thanks God and ... determines to be better. [1121] You know, he reforms doesn't he? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1122] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1123] But without any of the religious priggishness |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1124] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1125] that we've seen from St John Rivers. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1126] Did he turn to Jane Eyre erm ... after he'd been rejected by ... erm ... the other woman, the Oliver woman? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1127] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1128] No! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1129] No, he'd ha she'd had it ... [...] ? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1130] Yes. [1131] I, I mean, I think he ... he shows her no encouragement |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1132] Cos she went off with another chap |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1133] Instead of. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1134] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1135] instead of. [1136] He, he then thought right,whe who can I look for now type of thing? [1137] Wha what happened first? [1138] Do you see what I mean? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1139] I think they drifted apart, Rosamond and St John |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1140] They did. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1141] or at least |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1142] She did. |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1143] But she was eminently unsuitable wasn't she? [1144] That was the ploy that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1145] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1146] she was completely unsuitable for the like he was determined |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1147] to meet. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1148] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1149] They couldn't marry,e even though he loved her. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1150] Yes, er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1151] Too much conflict and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1152] She would have a miserable life, of course. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1153] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1154] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1155] She really would. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1156] Well any wife of his would have had a miserable life! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1157] I have no time for St John Rivers at all! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1158] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1159] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1160] And he was such a hypocrite wasn't he? [1161] He was |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1162] Yes. [1163] He was a hypocrite. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1164] [...] hypocrite. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1165] He, one of these people who ... allies their own opinions and feelings with the higher authority that they ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1166] [...] with God. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1167] Exactly! [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1168] It's, it's that er in Jane Austen's |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1169] That they were recognized. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1170] er ... er, which one is |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1171] Collins. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1172] Collins. [1173] Collins. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1174] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1175] In his, yeah, the thing [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1176] Oh yes! [1177] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1178] Yeah, he he is [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1179] Yes. [1180] He is indeed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1181] They, they must have existed these characters |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1182] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1183] that, you know, clergy mustn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1184] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1185] they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1186] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1187] Lu Lutheran agrees hypocrisy that kind of religion. [1188] There is a such [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1189] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1190] It's impossible to carry out. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1191] I knew one once. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1192] Yes. [1193] You did? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1194] Oh! [1195] I sympathize! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1196] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1197] Yes. [1198] But, on the other hand I wonder how any of them were really, I mean er ... our own Minister at our own church, he is extremely intellectual and very theological, and a wonderful man of compassion. [1199] These men were just given livelihoods weren't they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1200] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1201] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1202] To, trot up all these awful ones. [1203] They weren't very [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1204] That's right, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1205] which I don't think they were truly good, it was quite a good, reasonable living wi ... with a house thrown in. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1206] But it wasn't a calling. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1207] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1208] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1209] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1210] It wasn't a vocation. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1211] Not at all! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1212] But they thought |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1213] Not a vocation. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1214] it was didn't they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1215] They pretend it was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1216] but i didn't you send your |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1217] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1218] wasn't it the third of fourth son |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1219] Third. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1220] who went into the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1221] Went into church. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1222] church? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1223] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1224] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1225] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1226] Was it, the first to the army |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1227] Army, the law |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1228] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1229] or |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1230] The law, that's it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1231] So it was only third choice was it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1232] Arithmetic. [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1233] I'm informed it's usually the fourth. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1234] I don't, I don't know if it's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1235] It's the third or fourth. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1236] Oh yes! [1237] In Charlotte ... [laughing] [...] [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1238] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1239] But the, the ... a child a year [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1240] [...] eighteen children |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1241] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1242] Oh right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1243] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1244] Let's come to ... the Gothic in Jane Eyre, in why, in a sense,i it's in our reading lis it's on our reading list this term. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1245] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1246] Let me read you a couple of paragraphs from ... er, an essay on the new Gothic in Jane Eyre [...] , by erm, and American critic called Robert Harman. [1247] [reading book] Some years ago Edmund Wilson complained of writers of Gothic who could ... fail to lay hold on the terrors that lie deep in the human soul and have caused man to fear himself. [1248] Unquote. [1249] And proposed an anthology of horror stories that probe psychological cabins and find disquieting obsessions. [1250] This is precisely the direction in which Charlotte Bronte moved. [1251] This was one aspect of her following human emotions where they took her, into many depths and intensities, that has yet hardly had a place in a novel. [1252] this was the finest achievement of Gothic. [1253] Gothic is variously defined. [1254] In a recent book review, Lesley Fiedler implies that Gothic is shoddy mystery mongering. [1255] Whereas, F Cudworth-Flint defines the Gothic tradition, which he considers nearly central in American literature, as a literary exploration of the avenues to death. [1256] For Montagu Summers, on the other hand, Gothic was the essence of romanticism, and romanticism was the literary expression of supernaturalism. [1257] Both these latter definitions, though they are impractically inclusive, have suggested value. [1258] For originally, Gothic was one of the number of aesthetic developments which serve to breach the classical and rational order of life, and to make possible a kind of response, and a response to a kind of thing that among the knowing had long been taboo. [1259] In the novel it was the function of Gothic to open horizons beyond social patterns, rational decisions, and institutionally approved emotions. [1260] In a word, to enlarge the sense of reality and its impact on the human being. [1261] It became, then, a great liberator of feeling, but acknowledged the non-rational ... in the world of things and events, occasionally in the realm of the transcendental, ultimately, and most persistently in the depths of the human being. [1262] The first Gothic writers took the easy way. [1263] The excitement of mysterious scene and happening, which I call old Gothic. [1264] Of this, Charlotte Bronte made some direct use, while at the same time tending towards humorous modifications, which are anti-Gothic. [1265] But what really counts is this indirect usefulness to her, it released her from the patterns of the novel of society and therefore, permitted the flowering of her real talent, a talent for finding and giving dramatic form to impulses and feelings which because of their depth, or mysteriousness, or intensity, or ambiguity, or of their ignoring or transcending every day norms of propriety or reason, increase wonderfully the sense of reality in a novel. [1266] To note the emergence of this new Gothic in Charlotte Bronte, is not, I think, to pursue an old mode into dusty corners, but rather to identify historically the distinguishing, and the distinguished element in her work [] . [1267] Now ... [clears throat] ... let's look at the heroine ... in Jane Eyre. [1268] And think of, er in the light of the heroines we've already discussed. [1269] Erm ... she is struggling out of dependence on others into ... independence isn't she? [1270] Which she then freely surrenders for love. [1271] She's spirited, restless, blunt, imaginative, clear sighted, principled and passionate. [1272] So that's my list of adjectives, you can certainly add more if you want to. [1273] And with a keen sense of injustice. [1274] Actually, that, childish keen sense of injustice I couldn't find ... anywhere else as strongly depicted, except in Great Expectations. [1275] Do you know, when the young Pip |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1276] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1277] as a boy |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1278] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1279] and his ... sister ... married to Joe Gardurey, is bringing him up ... and she resents him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1280] Mhm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1281] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1282] And she ... at bed time she gets hold of him by the scruff of the neck and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1283] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1284] bangs him upstairs so that his boots ... bang against the stairs at every step, he hasn't time to put his feet down! [1285] And he says, it wasn't my fault! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1286] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1287] I was born, and it was not my fault I was there. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1288] Don't you get the feeling of Oliver Twist? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1289] Yes. [1290] I think so ... to some extent. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1291] Mm mm. [1292] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1293] It's, perhaps it's too long since I read Oliver Twist for me to remember it as clearly. [1294] But that's the, that's the idea that came to my mind anyway. [1295] Pip in Great Expectations. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1296] Which is, I mean it, just ... you know, as literary connections these things do pop up ... in your mind. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1297] Erm ... I think of the heroines that we've studied, Emily [...] also perhaps we could include Matilda from Attranto ... erm, Maude from Uncle Silas ... Helen Huntingdon from Wildfowl Hall, and Helena, I would say, not Rosa Budd, she's not in this tradition |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1298] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1299] but Helena, from, the Mystery of Edwin Drood I think Jane is most like Helen Huntingdon. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1300] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1301] Hardly surprising when you think |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1302] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1303] [laughing] they were sisters [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1304] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1305] Er, the writers were sisters. [1306] Erm, although I think Helena ... Landless ... could have been in this tradition don't you? [1307] She was certainly spirited enough. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1308] Aha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1309] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1310] Erm ... I mean, it's a new position though isn't it? [1311] Struggling out of dependence in order to freely give up your independence. [1312] We haven't come across that before have we? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1313] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1314] In a romance, Gothic romance. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1315] Well no. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1316] But we know much more about erm ... Jane Eyre, than we do about Helena |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1317] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1318] Landless |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1319] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1320] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1321] She is only [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1322] In fact, this is the problem |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1323] She is only |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1324] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1325] discussing all characters from |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1326] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1327] Edwin Drood isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1328] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1329] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1330] That they, we don't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1331] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1332] know where they were going to go. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1333] That's right. [1334] Jane Eyre is a complete character isn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1335] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1336] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1337] And on both sides you have this sort of modesty and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1338] And she developed |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1339] drawing our heroine. [1340] Yeah, she grows doesn't she? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1341] Mm, yes. [1342] Mm. [1343] But even Helen Huntingdon ... doesn't seek independence in order to freely give it up again. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1344] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1345] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1346] No, she doesn't. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1347] She erm ... if, in a sense she's already fixed onto the next generation hasn't she? [1348] She wants to save Arthur her son. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1349] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1350] She wouldn't have sought her independence at all if it hadn't been at such. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1351] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1352] She wouldn't have wanted it. [1353] Oh well, she |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1354] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1355] may have wanted it but she wouldn't have done it. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1356] No. [1357] I don't think she would. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1358] But erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1359] Well why not? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1360] Jane Eyre didn't really look upon erm, erm ... herself as giving up her independence er by ... marrying Rochester did she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1361] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1362] And it was erm ... formed within herself really. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1363] Yes. [1364] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1365] The other way around really isn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1366] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1367] it? [1368] I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1369] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1370] he was going to be dependant upon her, so she was taking on |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1371] Oh! [1372] That's it, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1373] she wasn't er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1374] Oh! [1375] I think that, I think she does make |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1376] Possibly, yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1377] it really clear though to him, when he says, in fact, I, their dialogue took away [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1378] I'll be your eyes and all |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1379] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1380] that. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1381] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1382] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1383] Yes, |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1384] she does make it clear to him that she is not |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1385] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1386] simply going to be his nurse |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1387] Nurse. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1388] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1389] and and his wife in that sense. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1390] She needs him |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1391] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1392] as much as he needs her. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1393] But, after it all, she's gonna be the one that's going to need the erm ... the strength. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1394] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1395] Yes. [1396] It is her, erm ... moral strength, if you like |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1397] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1398] yes. [1399] And, er because she's [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1400] I can't think what she's giving up? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1401] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1402] No, it's just fulfilment isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1403] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1404] It is, yes. [1405] But that's what I mean by freely giving up. [1406] You are giving up your independence. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1407] I mean, she's, she's got a competence that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1408] Yes, but what was her independence if she didn't marry him? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1409] Well she could have been |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1410] I mean where was, what would she have done? [1411] I mean she could have probably had [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1412] which would have meant [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1413] She didn't need to do anything she didn't want to! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1414] No,sh she had five thousand. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1415] Yes I know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1416] She had a lot of money! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1417] but, what was she going to? [1418] She was a still a single woman. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1419] But she wanted to actually [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1420] She was. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1421] In those times single women really didn't have much. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1422] She wanted to own her own shop. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1423] No, but I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1424] Oh right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1425] thi I certainly think |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1426] Okay. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1427] she and Diana, and Mary could have lived quite happily |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1428] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1429] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1430] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1431] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1432] Erm, and I, I think it's important that she's left this legacy |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1433] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1434] to show that she does give up |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1435] Well, yes. [1436] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1437] material |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1438] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1439] independence. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1440] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1441] They both had ... husbands |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1442] Quite willingly. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1443] didn't they? [1444] So no doubt |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1445] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1446] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1447] so really I, she couldn't probably ever live on her own. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1448] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1449] [...] necessary. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1450] I would say that she is the strongest ... woman ... er ... heroine that we've read. [1451] When you think of Maude |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1452] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1453] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1454] er, Uncle Silas |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1455] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1456] er, the compliant women, Matilda and the |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1457] Oh! [1458] Matilda was dreadful! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1459] You know, but ... this is the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1460] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1461] first one who's stood up on her own [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1462] There's He Helen Huntingdon. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1463] Absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1464] She did it too well didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1465] As much as that? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1466] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1467] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1468] Erm ... no |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1469] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1470] I think Jane Eyre's stronger, but Helen |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1471] Yes. [1472] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1473] Huntingdon did ... stand up, and go against |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1474] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1475] erm, all the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1476] the law and the er religious ... er ... instruction of the time didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1477] Yes, she did. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1478] I mean, didn't erm ... oh I can't remember his name. [1479] That humbug of a ... of a ... curate ... not, not curate, er, vicar. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1480] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1481] In Wildfowl Hall who told her that really she ought not to have left her husband |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1482] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1483] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1484] erm, unless he had bodily harmed her |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1485] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1486] and that should be no minor thing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1487] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1488] I think she was very, very good like that depicting |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1489] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1490] [laughing] properties [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1491] Women out if anything, we se the first book we read was ... back in seventeen hundred |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1492] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1493] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1494] Go on. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1495] and it's a everybody was shown then |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1496] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1497] the independence of women are getting more independent each ... by the century, decade, you know. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1498] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1499] And of course she was educated |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1500] wasn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1501] And she had erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1502] She had a good |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1503] She had had a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1504] education. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1505] she had as well, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1506] Well it's [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1507] which meant that she was more liberal ... minded. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1508] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1509] With her particular character it made her more liberal- minded |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1510] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1511] And maybe she [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1512] than the other ones, the elder ones. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1513] Yes. [1514] Yes, it did, yes. [1515] I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1516] I i [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1517] Because ... it can't be so unusual ... for girls to be education in a se I mean, I just don't know anything this i it's a blank in my mind. [1518] But, if there was schools, like Lowood |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1519] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1520] with good people at the head of them like Miss Temple, erm, then,th th it wouldn't be on its own. [1521] They must, er, especially if it was up |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1522] Well they you had |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1523] in the far North out in the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1524] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1525] sticks, erm, there must have been quite a few schools for girls |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1526] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1527] around. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1528] But there wasn't much |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1529] They must have been pious. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1530] for them do with it except to become governesses |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1531] That's what they're chosen for |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1532] was there? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1533] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1534] Yes, but the, the presentation itself I was thinking about |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1535] Mm mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1536] I mean the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1537] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1538] the, the idea of educating girls must have been allowed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1539] You had to be able to pay. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1540] Pardon? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1541] You had to be able pay. [1542] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1543] [...] weren't they? [1544] I mean, most of them [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1545] Any, [laugh] ... couldn't make any progress. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1546] I'd be getting [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1547] Yes quite! [1548] Yes, she was a very strong character, Esther |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1549] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1550] Williams |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1551] she saw five husbands off didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1552] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1553] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1554] Erm, yes I mean, as I understand it, girls were expected to be educated at home by their mother |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1555] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1556] who would have been educated at home by her mother. [1557] And, if those circumstances were not ... er, pertained, then the girls could be sent away to school. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1558] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1559] Erm, but I think ... we've got, we've got erm ... Cowan Bridge in the early part of Lowood and I think we've got really Roe Head School ... at the end Lowood, as it were. [1560] Charlotte's second school |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1561] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1562] when she went back as a teacher. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1563] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1564] When she was much more enlightened er, and the where the learning standard ... er,simp was much better simply because the girls were cared for. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1565] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1566] If you're, if you're ... if you're cold and hungry you're not learning are you? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1567] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1568] I mean, she started |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1569] Mm, I know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1570] with the village children didn't she? [1571] Or, he did ... as the |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1572] Ye |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1573] whe whe well who |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1574] Well Jane, I mean, er Jane did that [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1575] Oh yes! [1576] In er Morton? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1577] Yes. [1578] Right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1579] Yes. [1580] That's right, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1581] Er, so I mean that was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1582] unusual. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1583] Yes. [1584] Yes it was. [1585] Yes, for the farmers' daughters and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1586] And it was for girls, for girls |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1587] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1588] there was already one in existence belonging to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1589] There was a class thing there as well, I noticed |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1590] Mhm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1591] it didn't like them at first, because she felt that they were very rough and uncouth. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1592] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1593] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1594] But as she got to know them |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1595] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1596] she, she began to like them. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1597] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1598] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1599] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1600] Yeah, so it, it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1601] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1602] showed people kept in their classes didn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1603] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1604] they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1605] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1606] They did. [1607] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1608] I remember there was one [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1609] But she learnt, she was open to it wasn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1610] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1611] she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1612] Yes |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1613] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1614] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1615] She was opened to having her mind changed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1616] Very commendable for |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1617] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1618] And of course, there was another bit |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1619] Aha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1620] which I thought was rather ironic about Adele, you know, she managed to kind of erm ... erm ... quell the ... [laughing] the French, [...] [] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1621] Well that's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1622] But French was [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1623] I have a big exclamation mark, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1624] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1625] Besides [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1626] The other French was okay, but the |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1627] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1628] French part was definitely |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1629] [laughing] Yes [] ! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1630] insulting. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1631] She had an English ed education. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1632] That's right, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1633] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1634] Erm, I must ask a question |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1635] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1636] something that puzzled me as I read it, er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1637] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1638] earlier on in the book was the ... pictures that Rochester looked at |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1639] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1640] and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1641] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1642] they seemed to me to be heavy with symbolism but I couldn't see anything. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1643] He did say, were you happy when you painted them |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1644] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1645] you know? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1646] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1647] Apart from that, I thought, well ... why are they there, you know? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1648] Well, one of them |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1649] He was clever. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1650] more or, is more or less is realized in a dream she has, just before she leaves Thornfield Hall, erm ... in which she dreams she's lying in the red room again |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1651] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1652] erm, er, where she had her nightmare |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1653] That's right. [1654] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1655] and then, the ceiling turns into a sky, and then a, this sort of head and shoulders of a woman ... er, compassionate woman, an arm reaches through, and a, and a face comes, and er, she says, erm ... er, and it says, my child don't give in to temptation. [1656] And she says, I won't mother. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1657] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1658] Now whether it's meant to be really her mother, or |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1659] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1660] in a sense that one might call women of the generation before yours mother, I'm not sure. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1661] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1662] And that's what spurs her to get up and flee Thornfield Hall. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1663] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1664] And that's ... you see, this is one of the things that contemporary critics, some contemporary critics couldn't take, that Jane wanted Rochester as much as Rochester |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1665] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1666] wanted Jane. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1667] Wanted Jane. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1668] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1669] Jane had her own sexuality |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1670] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1671] had her own feelings, her own passion. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1672] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1673] Erm, the temptation was also on her side. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1674] Mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1675] She was not a passive little thing |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1676] Ooh! [1677] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1678] to be done with |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1679] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1680] as, as, as he would see fit. [1681] She had her own feelings. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1682] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1683] Is that why this bit [...] ? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1684] Yes. [1685] That's one of the reasons. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1686] Yeah. [1687] Cos it was written by men ... about ... well they wouldn't have known that though would they? [1688] Cos er, it was, it was written under the ... [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1689] No, no, no. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1690] Na no, but there a lot of speculation |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1691] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1692] in the time. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1693] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1694] Do you think that the er ... it must be the war, the first world war, if you've been watching Testament of Youth, Fear and Britain's Testament of Youth, which I read years ago |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1695] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1696] and the ... [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1697] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1698] but, when she says to her look, look father she wants to go to university |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1699] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1700] ah, oh na no! [1701] Can't go there, that's, didn't he? [1702] So I think that that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1703] first world war, sort of, really, opened up education to women and, and really more than anything. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1704] Mm. [1705] Isn't it terrible that it takes a war! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1706] And that was nineteen fourteen, eighteen, it was quite a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1707] Yes, but they all went into the factories didn't they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1708] Or they found bits |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1709] Mm. [1710] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1711] Well what's, what's worrying is that this |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1712] That's higher education. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1713] that they, we're in a slump like to the thirties |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1714] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1715] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1716] and it took the war to come out of that, what are we gonna get out of, get out |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1717] Exactly! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1718] of this? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1719] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1720] But we won't get onto that. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1721] Perhaps we're talking about it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1722] That's a different subject for us. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1723] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1724] A [...] subject. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1725] there were plenty of spirited women really, you know, a man came ... from monied families who ... didn't er, just go off er, you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1726] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1727] Yes, I take your point, they were the monied fam |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1728] erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1729] Yes. [1730] But there weren't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1731] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1732] I mean the fact that they are so individualistic to us. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1733] And [...] especially, I mean erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1734] Yes. [1735] And Elizabeth Fry, who reformed |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1736] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1737] the prisons. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1738] You could almost count them on the fingers of two |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1739] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1740] hands couldn't you? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1741] Of course. [1742] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1743] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1744] Anyway, the Quakers were always different. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1745] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1746] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1747] Er, I mean their women were always allowed to do things |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1748] Yes they were. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1749] weren't they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1750] They were much more enlightened as well. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1751] They were never [...] their father. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1752] Well no. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1753] Ha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1754] Could do without them |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1755] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1756] Erm ... to come back to what we were saying about the paintings |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1757] Well my mind boggled with the iceberg and that. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1758] [laughing] Right. [1759] Yes [] ! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1760] Cos, [...] I'm eighty two now. |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1761] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1762] I think it's ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1763] Her expression. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1764] her expression really of the psychological in |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1765] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1766] the novel. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1767] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1768] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1769] Erm, it comes out in her dreams, Jane's dreams, particularly this baby she's always carrying, I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1770] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1771] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1772] if people know how to interpret what it means to be carrying a baby in a dream, please |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1773] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1774] tell me. [1775] I mean |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1776] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1777] apart from the superstitious one that somebody's going to die. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1778] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1779] Erm, which she sa ... Betty expresses. [1780] Erm ... and it is ... sort of a controlled way, if you like, of, of allowing the the, the subconscious to be expressed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1781] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1782] Like you, I couldn't interpret the paintings in any particular way, and I don't think we really need to. [1783] I mean, maybe there are others who could, who can do it and explain them to me, and I'd be very grateful if they could but, erm ... in detail |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1784] but I ... that's how I interpret anyway. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1785] I've wasted twenty minutes on that! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1786] Well it was very a very interesting, interesting image |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1787] [...] quite often |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1788] isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1789] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1790] Because, |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1791] But quite often |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1792] so much of it's sub submerged. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1793] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1794] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1795] I mean, it could be passion, in fact. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1796] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1797] A little bit on the top, but so much underneath. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1798] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1799] Well, yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1800] Yes. [1801] It is an interesting |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1802] image. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1803] Obviously took Teddy twenty minutes ... to think that this iceberg was a ... it was ... [laughing] a, a valid symbol [] ! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1804] [laughing] [...] [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1805] Thank you very much! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1806] Well that's alright. [1807] That's what reading's for, so you [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1808] Well yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1809] can bother. [1810] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1811] Was it because of the ... [clears throat] ... passion that the [clears throat] ... excuse me, these women seem to ... er, be pres having that made them think that er, it wasn't er ... a male who wrote the book or not? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1812] That may well be one of the reasons, yes. [1813] That, a passion was affirmative to a women. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1814] I have a feeling that there is a female sort of tone about it. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1815] Yes. [1816] And |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1817] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1818] that there was also a, a sort of blow for freedom being struck if you like |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1819] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1820] which perhaps a ma a male writer wouldn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1821] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1822] make. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1823] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1824] It was also about the little girl wasn't it? [1825] Who grows up, I mean, it was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1826] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1827] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1828] I shouldn't think many men would have dared to have written ... it was all her then, in the first person |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1829] who was |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1830] About being a small child. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1831] About being a small, little girl. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1832] There's a lot about clothes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1833] Mhm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1834] Er, you know, Jane Austen, and and Bronte, they wrote quite a lot about clothes which meant probably, but ... always, I felt the Trollope could see into the minds of women ... you know, and he was good. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1835] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1836] But he didn't go into detail about what they were wearing, but there's quite a lot about what she was wearing |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1837] Yes. [1838] Thomas Hardy |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1839] You know. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1840] I think, is also excellent |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1841] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1842] Oh yes! [1843] He's very good. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1844] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1845] on women. [1846] Let's look at some ... erm ... Gothic elements ... er ... it's no good saying page a hundred and one is it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1847] Do you mean that, when you say Gothic elements, do you mean ... a heightening for mystery? [1848] Yes? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1849] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1850] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1851] Because I |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1852] I mean, I think what, what I think erm ... Charlotte Bronte does in this, she introduces certain Gothic elements, which she then immediately undermines. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1853] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1854] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1855] Er, and it's interesting to ask why? [1856] And I thought we might look at a few of them. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1857] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1858] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1859] But surely the house is, a name or a [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1860] Well |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1861] within this awful [...] voice. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1862] That's right. [1863] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1864] But that's not so much the building as th |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1865] Don't you think so? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1866] as the a as terror, and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1867] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1868] terror is another erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1869] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1870] you know, part of it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1871] Oh, a bit of Gothic feeling. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1872] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1873] It's terror from the beginning. [1874] I mean, terror |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1875] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1876] in the red room is deplorable! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1877] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1878] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1879] There is indeed, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1880] Well part of that is awful! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1881] And also the, the, the trip into Lowood ... was also frightening. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1882] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1883] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1884] It was, yes. [1885] The, er the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1886] For somebody that age. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1887] Erm ... I was thinking more of the, this adult Jane ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1888] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1889] coming to a bit |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1890] But I thought the supernatural voices was, was Gothic wasn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1891] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1892] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1893] I think that's the one point that she doesn't undermine. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1894] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1895] The telepathic communication. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1896] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1897] And, and what about Mr Rochester's unexplained past? [1898] That, that's always there isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1899] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1900] We never really know what happened. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1901] It's very hard when you know this novel |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1902] Is it ever explained? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1903] to, to erm to try and remember what it was like when you read it for the first time. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1904] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1905] Has anybody read it for the first time for this course? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1906] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1907] Do you feel |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1908] You [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1909] I'm an expert on it! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1910] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1911] Yes. [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1912] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1913] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1914] Did you feel a tremendous sense of mystery gathering around Rochester? [1915] That there were clues put in here and there that things were not right, and that Jane was seeing all? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1916] Erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1917] Before the ex you know, that she knew about Bertha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1918] Yes, I, I think it would be fair to say that, but you wondered ... how he came to be the kind of man that he, she found him. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1919] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1920] But, yes, I, I think that'll be fair to say that. [1921] Erm, I also found that,th surprisingly, that there's little touches of humour roundabout Rochester. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1922] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1923] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1924] Which I found a little bit surprising. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1925] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1926] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1927] Erm, the boy |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1928] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1929] you know, and he said well produce your witness I've gone to hell. [1930] And he said well I'll produce a witness first. [1931] You know, I mean |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1932] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1933] sort of. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1934] That's right, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1935] I thought, well that's odd! [1936] You know, what ... it's supposed to be a, a, a terror of a horror story |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1937] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1938] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1939] and ... but I think it sort of highlight, er, she might have done it unconsciously or consciously, I don't know. [1940] I think the erm ... character of Rochester, yes, he comes across as a er er ... as quite a mystery man. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1941] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1942] You keep finding out things about him, that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1943] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1944] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1945] you're not quite expecting. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1946] Yes. [1947] That's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1948] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1949] ah |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1950] You know, he, he looms up on the horse, you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1951] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1952] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1953] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1954] Turns out to be flesh and blood after all. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1955] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1956] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1957] Well erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1958] Falls off the horse. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1959] There is a, a gesture there, of course, which is replicated right at the end isn't it? [1960] When he, he leans on her to walk back to his horse |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1961] Mm mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1962] and then he leans on Jane right at the |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1963] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1964] end |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1965] Oh. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1966] to walk back into the house |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1967] Yes. [1968] I see. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1969] erm, when he's blinded and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1970] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1971] erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1972] The trouble is, if you, if you read it as as ha many people have found ... er, some years ago ... and then |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1973] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1974] read Jean Rhys' ... Wide Sargasso Sea. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1975] Mm. [1976] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1977] That's right, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1978] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1979] And then you read it again |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1980] and you've got that in your mind |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1981] Yes. [1982] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1983] of er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1984] Absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1985] Did you find that too? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1986] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1987] I found it very disturbing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1988] I, I couldn't finish it now. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1989] In a sense that takes the Gothic out of Bertha |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1990] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1991] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1992] doesn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1993] Yes it does! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1994] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1995] Because it shows |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1996] her own sufferings. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1997] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[1998] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[1999] Erm, she is not something simply to be afraid of. [2000] She has, you see how she has been pushed into this position. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2001] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2002] And how ... two cultures failed entirely to understand each other. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2003] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2004] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2005] And should never have been brought together in the first place. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2006] And of course, if you look at it er, logically, I mean, for a ... a woman to be tied up and kept in a room, you know, and kept prisoner all her life you could hardly expect her to ... to be sane even if she did |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2007] have a chance to get [...] which |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2008] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2009] she wouldn't have been able to, I mean yo to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2010] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2011] ti treat someone like an animal then |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2012] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2013] they'll behave like an animal. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2014] Yes. [2015] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2016] So, I mean, it was clearly that, you know, of knowing how to deal with ... mad |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2017] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2018] people. [2019] I mean, what was madness ... [...] , if |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2020] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2021] we asked. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2022] Erm ... just looking at one or two references. [2023] When, Mrs Fairfax is showing Jane over the house |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2024] Mm mm, mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2025] erm, and she says do the, Jane asks, [reading] do the servants live in these rooms? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2026] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2027] No, they occupy a range of smaller apartments to the back, no one ever sleeps here. [2028] One would almost say that if there were a ghost at Thornfield Hall this would be its haunt ... so I think [] . [2029] We're up on the third floor here. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2030] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2031] Mm mm, mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2032] Erm, whereas we know erm ... Mrs Rochester is kept. [2033] [reading] You have no ghost then? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2034] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2035] None that I ever heard of returned Mrs Fairfax smiling. [2036] Nor any traditions of one, no legends or ghost stories? [2037] I believe not. [2038] And yet, it is said the Rochesters have been a violent than a quiet race in their time, perhaps though, that is the reason they rest tranq tranquilly in their graves now [] . [2039] Erm, and then ... a ... on we go, I mean, [clears throat] , and then she hears this laugh you see. [2040] I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2041] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2042] mean, are there ghosts, are there legends? [2043] No, there aren't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2044] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2045] Everything's okay, it's just the family, you know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2046] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2047] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2048] Erm, then she hears that laugh, you know, probably Grace Poole, did you hear it again? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2049] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2050] Erm, yes, you know and ... er we |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2051] That's a bit of the Gothic. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2052] She's undercutting all the time. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2053] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2054] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2055] It's the bit of the Gothic, except that we ... know that this is, well we don't know then do we? [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2056] No. [2057] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2058] No, and it says erm ... [reading] I really did not expect any Grace to answer [] . [2059] Mrs Fairfax has just called Grace Poole. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2060] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2061] [reading] For the laugh was as tragic as preternatural a laugh as any I ever heard. [2062] And, but that it was high noon and no circumstance of ghostliness accompanied the curious cachinnation. [2063] But that neither scene nor season favoured fear, I should have been superstitiously afraid [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2064] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2065] But she wasn't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2066] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2067] Cos it was high noon. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2068] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2069] And Mrs Fairfax had explained it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2070] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2071] [reading] However the event showed me I was a fool for entertaining a sense even of surprise [] . [2072] So we have the Gothic set-up ... and promptly knocked down again. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2073] Mm mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2074] So |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2075] And then it go comes up again with veil [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2076] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2077] It does indeed, yes. [2078] I mean, erm ... she actually then chooses to walk up and down the third storey ... erm ... couple of pages later, Jane, when she wants a bit of solitude. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2079] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2080] So it can't have been that frightening. [2081] This place she chooses to think over her own hopes |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2082] Well |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2083] and plans and so on. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2084] Erm, when she imagines that er ... I think you pronounce it a Gytrash? [2085] I don't know any other way of pronouncing it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2086] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2087] A kind of ghost is going to be riding down the path ... for er, when it's actually a Rochester |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2088] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2089] you know. [2090] Erm, it's only a trapper taking a short cut. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2091] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2092] But no Gytrash appeared she says, just a trapper taking a short cut. [2093] All her fears ... are then [laughing] all knocked down [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2094] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2095] So that you're having the Gothic set-up in this story ... to be undermined by common sense. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2096] Oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2097] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2098] A at the time it is raised, that's the interesting thing. [2099] Not like, Mrs Radcliffe. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2100] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2101] Building tension and mystery to the end and then undermining it all. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2102] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2103] But er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2104] And even when they erm ... the stranger comes ... you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2105] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2106] who's the, the brother ... and erm ... had his ... arm injured |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2107] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2108] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2109] erm, he's [...] , and even then she accepts doesn't she, or she appears to ... accept what she's told? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2110] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2111] She does, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2112] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2113] I mean, there is one ... when she says that Bertha's face reminded her of a vampire ... I suppose that's probably the most Gothic moment. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2114] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2115] But then when you think that she did actually bite Mason! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2116] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2117] Of course. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2118] Quite hard, I mean really hard! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2119] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2120] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2121] Er, and tries to bite ... Rochester on the face doesn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2122] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2123] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2124] Erm, then she becomes a sort of literal ... th the vampire, as it were, is reduced and she becomes just a wild thing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2125] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2126] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2127] So that actually that comment |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2128] on her being a vampire is also undermined. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2129] But she was a pyromaniac. [2130] Because that wasn't the first ... time, when she eventually burnt the place down |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2131] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2132] she tried before. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2133] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2134] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2135] So she had this pyroma maniac ... as well. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2136] Yes. [2137] I mean, are we to see ... that as symbolic ... the setting fire to Rochester's bed? [2138] The burning bed? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2139] Could well be. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2140] Passionate bed perhaps? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2141] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2142] Mm mm! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2143] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2144] Certainly Jean Rhys ... erm ... I mean, I thought of Jean Rhys at that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2145] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2146] point, extrapolates that backwards, if you can |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2147] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2148] extrapolate backwards. [2149] Doesn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2150] I've forgotten a lot of the book. [2151] I didn't have time to read it all ... and ... how ... far in comparison with the other Gothic novels do you go before ... you, as a reader, know about this woman er, kept up ... you know, in er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2152] The quarters. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2153] Abberton Forest |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2154] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2155] Half way exactly |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2156] Yes. [2157] Should think about half way through |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2158] it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2159] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2160] [...] , you know. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2161] when you find out. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2162] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2163] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2164] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2165] It's incredible to me, that ... Jane has all these er ... er ... things happening |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2166] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2167] portents is the word? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2168] Yes. [2169] Or omens, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2170] Omens, yes. [2171] And er ... she never really, she's never really very curious |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2172] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2173] a erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2174] Well she acc |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2175] It is, it is never ... he doesn't, not actively curious. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2176] No. [2177] She accepts |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2178] Right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2179] explanations doesn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2180] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2181] Yes, she does. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2182] But then you wouldn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2183] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2184] think of the mad wife being shut [laughing] up there [] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2185] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2186] by |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2187] You might if you were Catherine Moorfield. [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2188] [laughing] Yes [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2189] [laughing] It's a bit like this [] . [2190] But Northanger Abbey is, but, she is absolutely |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2191] But Northanger Abbey was definitely a bit curious! |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2192] [laughing] Yes [] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2193] But, what I was going on to say was that ... erm ... Grace ... what's her name? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2194] Poole. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2195] Grace. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2196] Grace Poole. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2197] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2198] Er ... everything's blamed, blamed onto Grace Poole but she's, but she |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2199] I don't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2200] reappears! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2201] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2202] She's never dismissed. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2203] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2204] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2205] And, wouldn't er ... Jane ... be inquiring about that? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2206] Well |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2207] She does wonder about it, yes, but she's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2208] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2209] ah, I mean, she's got a, a subordinate role in the house hasn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2210] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2211] Erm ... I mean, and Mrs Fairfax is not really open to ... erm ... giving her the information |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2212] No, er tha |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2213] is she? [2214] I think, doesn't she ask her at one point about Grace Poole? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2215] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2216] And Mrs Fairfax |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2217] Oh! [2218] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2219] turns the conversation. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2220] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2221] Mm. [2222] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2223] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2224] But th the servants are all talking about ... this erm, aren't they, at one point? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2225] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2226] And she overhears them. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2227] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2228] But she, as you say, she's not really curious |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2229] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2230] to find out ... why she's being kept in the dark and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2231] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2232] everyone else knows. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2233] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2234] She's also told that it's Grace Poole that slept by the Rochester's bed. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2235] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2236] Mm. [2237] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2238] Erm, but things go on as usual. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2239] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2240] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2241] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2242] This is, I found intriguing. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2243] Yeah, I found this |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2244] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2245] a bit hard to swallow. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2246] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2247] But she said he would explain |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2248] Want to find out more. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2249] you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2250] Yes he did. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2251] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2252] He |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2253] Yo you know and [...] himself. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2254] From their marriage, that's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2255] Yes. [2256] True. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2257] But she knows that Grace Poole is a [...] ... and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2258] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2259] she's been living with a brother [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2260] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2261] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2262] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2263] Erm ... sorry! [2264] Who's the liv |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2265] Sorry! [2266] Sorry! [2267] I |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2268] Who's been living with him? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2269] [...] too. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2270] Oh! [2271] Charlotte? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2272] Char Charlotte Bronte. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2273] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2274] With the brother who drank. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2275] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2276] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2277] So erm, she presumably being used to sort of accepting these ... er, crises and behaviour |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2278] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2279] thinking it was drink, and so why shouldn't she acc [...] in ... that Jane Eyre accepts |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2280] Grace Poole drinks and she gets your ... erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2281] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2282] lively bits of ... behaviour, but then |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2283] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2284] it all settles again and you have to accept it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2285] But why is she there? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2286] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2287] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2288] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2289] She isn't curio I mean yo er ... erm, I can see if you ... it could get in the way of accepting the story. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2290] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2291] Erm, what I found actually ... er erm ... even odder, was that is, if the servants knew about her, why did nobody appear at the wedding ceremony? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2292] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2293] Why was it left to Mason |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2294] Yes. [2295] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2296] to come forward? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2297] He had been paid. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2298] I don't, I don't think they knew that she was ... was his |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2299] His wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2300] wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2301] Don't know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2302] They knew that he had er erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2303] A mad woman. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2304] a mad woman upstairs but I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2305] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2306] don't see as though knew her was his wife. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2307] Yes. [2308] Well I said they [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2309] Er but they did wor wonder whether it was erm |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2310] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2311] Mm! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2312] an ex-mistress |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2313] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2314] a relation or |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2315] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2316] something. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2317] Er it didn't come out even where the er, inn keeper is telling erm ... her, telling Jane about what happened. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2318] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2319] And he obviously didn't know and it wasn't public knowledge that it was his wife that was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2320] Oh no. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2321] kept there, it wasn't just |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2322] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2323] this woman. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2324] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2325] Yes, erm ... [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2326] Erm, I think what ... erm ... the purpose for me, anyway, or the effect of under setting up the Gothic ... in detail and then undermining it, is that when you do allow it to stand it's much more effective. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2327] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2328] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2329] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2330] And that, I think, is |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2331] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2332] I mean I know we, we, we can dispute that this telepa telepathic communication is actually rather far-fetched, but it is quite dramatic |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2333] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2334] isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2335] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2336] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2337] That at the moment at which she's about to submit |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2338] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2339] to St John ... erm ... she ... hears the call as it were from somebody who really needs |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2340] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2341] her. [2342] Doesn't just |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2343] Even through the nightmare she [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2344] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2345] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2346] It's a, it's a er a prickle that nobody |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2347] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2348] can see. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2349] And he heard the reply. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2350] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2351] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2352] And he goes through [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2353] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2354] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2355] I think, even more frightening the fact that she might have succumbed to this chap [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2356] I was saying, [...] for God's sake don't do it! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2357] I really was frightened that she might be off with him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2358] Well, what I found a bit erm ... remarkable really, in the book |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2359] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2360] was that er, parts of it were pure Hollywood weren't they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2361] Mm mm! [2362] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2363] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2364] They really were! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2365] Yes, but doesn't it come off when |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2366] Yeah! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2367] they do the film of it, it's much more dramatic and eerie |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2368] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2369] than than the novel because you |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2370] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2371] don't get a rational explanation |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2372] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2373] in the film. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2374] No you don't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2375] You get the atmosphere very strongly. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2376] What will |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2377] And it comes off far more as a ... you know, as a sort of Gothic |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2378] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2379] story |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2380] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2381] than, than the novel. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2382] What could have been a really Gothic moment in the novel, and quite deliberately isn't, it seems to me, is Jane's confrontation of Bertha. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2383] When after the disruptive |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2384] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2385] wedding ceremony, they all troop up to the third storey |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2386] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2387] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2388] to meet this mad |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2389] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2390] woman. [2391] At this point we're, we're not having any of Jane's reactions. [2392] We've got Rochester's ... erm ... monologue |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2393] Account. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2394] as it were |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2395] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2396] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2397] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2398] erm, a mixture of anger and shame and er, resentment and er, justification and so on. [2399] And ... he places his hand, as he said, on his Jane's shoulder and says this is i this quiet ... girl standing there, this is what I wanted and look what I've, you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2400] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2401] can you blame me when you see |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2402] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2403] what I've got? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2404] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2405] And, she is not terror stricken, she is not horrified, she's not cowering in a corner, Jane I mean. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2406] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2407] She's just standing there |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2408] Really quite strong. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2409] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2410] taking it in. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2411] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2412] And she says later ... sh you, you're too cruel, to Rochester, you can't blame her for being mad. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2413] Mm mm! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2414] And so, what could have been a really Gothic moment, isn't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2415] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2416] And it seems to me, quite deliberately isn't. [2417] It's made a moment of ... er, dramatic moment ... er, a compassionate moment |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2418] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2419] but not a Gothic moment. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2420] But even the fire where, you know, the first fire, don't they, when she burnt house down ... erm ... that isn't made as terrifying as it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2421] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2422] could have been. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2423] No. [2424] It's quite funny actually. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2425] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2426] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2427] Because he wakes up and, and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2428] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2429] says is there a flood? [2430] What |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2431] Yes! [2432] [laughing] That's right [] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2433] are you doing drowning me in my bed! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2434] You know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2435] [laughing] Yes [] ! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2436] Cos she's thrown all this water over him. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2437] But I mean that's a terrifying thing to have found him in |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2438] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2439] flames and er |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2440] And then there's one little |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2441] sort of almost erotic flicker really, when she says I'll go and get a candle and he says, don't go yet. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2442] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2443] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2444] Wait till I put something on. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2445] I know. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2446] Erm ... and er, you could pass it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2447] You really could pass it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2448] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2449] and it's, you know ... it's, part of life isn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2450] I |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2451] It's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2452] couldn't help thinking if it was modern day ... a woman that's ... manically ... depressed ... dreamt that, dreamt she had, she was definitely mental, she would be stuck in a ... a mental home and just kept under with er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2453] Drugs. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2454] Exactly! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2455] drugs. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2456] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2457] She certainly wouldn't be roaming round. [2458] And you know,won I wonder ... whether |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2459] She wasn't, yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2460] whether it's kind of him to keep her there |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2461] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2462] because she's quite well looked after. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2463] Well Exactly. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2464] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2465] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2466] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2467] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2468] But there must have been cases weren't there? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2469] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2470] Yes, but that's to that would be terrible if you had this! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2471] Yes, but that's then, I mean, perhaps Rochester was kinder. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2472] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2473] So, in case that does happen. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2474] Yes. [2475] Yeah, absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2476] He, and then |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2477] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2478] he didn't want anybody to know, but I think in ... he did that in the kinder fashion. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2479] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2480] That is possible actually, that he would want to keep it ... from his neighbourhood. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2481] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2482] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2483] True. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2484] That he were married to a mad woman. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2485] But if sh she was in care [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2486] They would put her somewhere else though wouldn't |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2487] No. [2488] Qui quite possibly they wouldn't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2489] So he would have been safer |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2490] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2491] wouldn't he, actually than |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2492] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2493] put her in ... a mental hospital or a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2494] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2495] or a mental institute. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2496] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2497] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2498] Somebody in authority would have known that he was married though, but, probably not anybody who could have done anything about preventing another one. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2499] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2500] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2501] Yeah, but we wouldn't have had the story would we? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2502] Well |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2503] No, quite! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2504] Er er, in some cases |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2505] they were beaten and tortured! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2506] Oh! [2507] That's right. [2508] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2509] Oh! [2510] Dreadful, yes. [2511] I think you just can't [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [clears throat] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2512] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2513] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2514] Yes it was a duty of them wasn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2515] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2516] To beat the devil out of them. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2517] Yeah. [2518] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2519] Most dreadful time! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2520] And left ... abandoned there weren't they? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2521] Oh |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2522] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2523] yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2524] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2525] They were. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2526] Nasty! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2527] Some are still. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2528] Depicted in film |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2529] erm, er, in that Tchaikovsky film, whatever |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2530] Oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2531] was it called? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2532] The Music Makers. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2533] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2534] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2535] Erm, with ... Glenda Jackson. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2536] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2537] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2538] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2539] Absolutely |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2540] incredible! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2541] That, oh! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2542] It was awful! [2543] Did you see it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2544] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2545] Oh! [2546] It's, it's ... it was absolutely incredible! [2547] I think early in the eighteen twelve [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2548] [laughing] made it forever [] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2549] Really? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2550] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2551] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2552] Oh Lord! [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2553] Well we had the Quakers |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2554] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2555] to thank for improving the law on prisoners. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2556] Oh yes! [2557] We did. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2558] And the mental [...] , that's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2559] I think |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2560] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2561] they were wonderful! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2562] At least prisons er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2563] What they did |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2564] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2565] Absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2566] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2567] was amazing |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2568] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2569] and wonderful really! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2570] Well that's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2571] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2572] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2573] Yeah. [2574] All the [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2575] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2576] Have we said all we want to say about ... St John ... and his ... er, secessionism? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2577] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2578] I think so, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2579] Cos partly, I expect, his trouble was repression too. [2580] I think that he was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2581] was such a fanatic erm, religious |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2582] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2583] because he wa he was ... obviously a very repressed man wasn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2584] Absolutely! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2585] Spiritually and [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2586] Yes. [2587] And, and emotionally, he had repressed his |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2588] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2589] desire for Rosamond hadn't he? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2590] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2591] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2592] Yes. [2593] Erm, and that is the way that |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2594] And spiritually. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2595] erm ... yo I mean he says at one point, as a positive statement, he thinks, that he bend, he's bending his nature out of its natural course |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2596] Mhm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2597] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2598] in order to serve ... God. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2599] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2600] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2601] Whereas Jane sees that as unnatural. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2602] Mm mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2603] Yes, like |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2604] Wasn't it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2605] that [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2606] a typical religion though, that in that day and age when you were made to flagellate yourself, you were made, the whole time, to recognize your sin, and anybody who was masochistically inclined |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2607] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2608] was going to become a Rivers. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2609] Mm. [2610] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2611] Afraid so. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2612] And inflict it on others as |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2613] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2614] well. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2615] As well. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2616] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2617] And be a sadist as well. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2618] You know Van Gogh er, he had a hired woman, and er he ... definitely thought that was what he should do to actually put all his energies into his painting |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2619] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2620] and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2621] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2622] and, well he didn't mind. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2623] So it's best not to have [...] . |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2624] Well that means Freud accepts that is one channel in which |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2625] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2626] any unused sexual energies will go. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2627] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2628] It goes into creative. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2629] Subjugating it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2630] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2631] isn't it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2632] Yes. [2633] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2634] But erm ... [laugh] ... Rivers didn't exactly subjugate it did he? [2635] I mean, |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2636] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2637] evil came out of it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2638] It was a ... and also was doted on by his two sisters. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2639] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2640] Wasn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2641] Yes. [2642] Although they recognized that Jane's lot with him in, I mean, they wanted Jane |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2643] Oh yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2644] to marry him |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2645] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2646] but once they knew it meant going to India |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2647] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2648] and that she didn't care |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2649] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2650] for him, then erm ... they, they ... supported her. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2651] Yes. [2652] Oh yes, but |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2653] Well no, they didn't. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2654] er they did dote on him, you know, rather spoiltly. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2655] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2656] But, [...] [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2657] It makes you wonder why. [2658] So I think when we have these |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2659] He was good looking. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2660] erm ... er ... portraits of, er men ... you have to take i it that ... erm ... we could argue Charlotte Bronte was very critical of the men she knew and, the men she ... thought she might know, and didn't ... erm, you have to look at the women who feed into the making of them |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2661] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2662] don't you? [2663] As you say, you have to look at ... Mrs Reed |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2664] That's right. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2665] and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2666] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2667] the making of John. [2668] And, perhaps the sisters, and the making of St John. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2669] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2670] But the men had the power didn't they? [2671] They erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2672] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2673] they, they had all the power. [2674] So, women had, well what else could they do but kind of |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2675] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2676] Well the women were chattels weren't they? [2677] In fact, you know, they, they just belonged |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2678] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2679] to the men and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2680] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2681] either their fathers, or their husbands. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2682] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2683] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2684] But Mrs Reed's children, er, three of them, all a re a reflection of her wickedness. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2685] Mhm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2686] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2687] If you can put it like that. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2688] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2689] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2690] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2691] Cos the two er, girls |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2692] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2693] who are, were ... extraordinary |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2694] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2695] and they didn't fit into life, did they? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2696] Well |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2697] Into the world. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2698] Well, one was to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2699] No one became a nun didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2700] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2701] Yes. [2702] One was to, one should have married |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2703] St John ... Eliza. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2704] Yes. [2705] That's it, yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2706] Eliza and St John could have |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2707] bored each other rigid! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2708] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2709] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2710] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2711] Some |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2712] Murdered each other actually. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2713] [laughing] Yes, probably [] ! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2714] And the one that was indulged |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2715] Georgiana. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2716] was was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2717] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2718] completely useless! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2719] Yes. [2720] Absolutely hopeless! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2721] She was pretty. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2722] Er, she was pretty, she was |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2723] Er, she'd been ruined hadn't [...] ? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2724] she was lumpish |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2725] All curls. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2726] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2727] she went sort of, she just sort of spread and got lazy didn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2728] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2729] she? [2730] You know, in everything she did, er physically, mentally, you know |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2731] Self indulgent. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2732] Yes. [2733] Absolutely. [2734] Er, and John just went wild. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2735] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2736] Yes. [2737] I mean, erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2738] What's your explanation for Mrs Reed wanting to see Jane again? [2739] You know, where she, she finds her |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2740] Ah! [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2741] That's an interesting question. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2742] I'm sure she went to heaven or thereabouts. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2743] Yes. [2744] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2745] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2746] The extensible answer is to try and clear her conscience, to tell |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2747] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2748] her about this uncle |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2749] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2750] who wanted to leave her money. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2751] Yes, yes, that's that's a [...] wasn't it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2752] Erm, it's the go I mean you, you can or not er, decided whether you're going to believe in a woman who is so vindictive ... that she's going to allow them ... er, prevent her having her rightful |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2753] Mhm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2754] erm, legacy. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2755] Mhm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2756] Erm ... because, she is of an equal status |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2757] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2758] with her own children. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2759] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2760] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2761] They are cousins. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2762] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2763] Mm. [2764] Yes! |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2765] Erm, and obviously the fact that she's sent to Lowood shows that it's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2766] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2767] her education's being pa paid for at the cheapest possible |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2768] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2769] er, rate |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2770] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2771] by Mrs Reed. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2772] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2773] And, and that's only because her husband were on a promise from her. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2774] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2775] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2776] Erm ... I think it's, er ... an original mark of the book ... that they don't make it up. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2777] No, they don't. [2778] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2779] I don't think they should make it up. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2780] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2781] I think there are some gulfs which cannot be bridged. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2782] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2783] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2784] And if, Charlotte Bronte had had ... reconciliation there I think it would have |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2785] Oh! [2786] It would have been er awful |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2787] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2788] wouldn't |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2789] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2790] it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2791] It would. [2792] And she |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2793] No, she just turned ... away from her didn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2794] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2795] she? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2796] She did. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2797] After she'd |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2798] It's a deathbed confession to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2799] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2800] exculpate her ... her |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2801] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2802] her wrong-doing |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2803] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2804] but, no way did she have any affection for her then. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2805] Oh, well Mrs Reed's nasty! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2806] And contin died hating ... er |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2807] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2808] Jane didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2809] She did anyhow. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2810] Oh yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2811] So that was on her |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2812] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2813] But it had served the purpose of making Jane know about her |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2814] uncle |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2815] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2816] didn't it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2817] That's right. [2818] This uncle who was also ... presumably ... the uncle of ... er, not only the Rivers' children, but would he also have been the uncle of Re Mrs Reed's |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2819] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2820] children? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2821] Yes |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2822] Oh! [2823] Yes! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2824] he would, her brother's ... erm |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2825] mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2826] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2827] husband's brother wasn't he? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2828] That's right. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2829] But he also gives you a feeling that she was trying to show the difference good and evil, in other words, Jane refused to hate her but she did hate her. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2830] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2831] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2832] You know what I mean? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2833] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2834] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2835] All the way through. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2836] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2837] Hate gets you nowhere. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2838] Yes, she felt sorry for her. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2839] There is, erm, a Victorian literary convention also, being slightly worked against here, er, if anybody knows David Lodge's novel, Nice Work. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2840] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2841] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2842] Anybody know Nice Work? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2843] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2844] Erm, features er a female university lecturer who's who ... says of the Victorian novel that it comes out right by marriage, er either marriage, legacy, or ... I can't remember what the other one was, there were three categories. [2845] And Jane certainly gets her legacy. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2846] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2847] But she gets her legacy, erm, in order to be able to show that she doesn't need it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2848] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2849] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2850] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2851] In order to be able to, not give |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2852] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2853] it up, you don't have to |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2854] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2855] give it up |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2856] But she did share it. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2857] but,yo er she did share, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2858] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2859] And, and to be able to ... if you like, bring it as a dowry, but it wouldn't have mattered if she hadn't a penny. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2860] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2861] The sim the same with Helen Huntingdon. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2862] Oh yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2863] Yes. [2864] Quite. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2865] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2866] And you may as well have it if it doesn't matter because |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2867] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2868] then you can show, as an author, that it doesn't matter. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2869] Mm mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2870] If you haven't got it ... then you could just, er other people just could be nice when they marry you and say that it |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2871] doesn't matter that you haven't got it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2872] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2873] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2874] But if you've got it and it doesn't matter, then you can really show it doesn't matter. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2875] And bearing in mind ... that anything that she had would automatically become Rochester's. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2876] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2877] [clears throat] ... Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2878] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2879] Er, you know, because anything belonging to a wife belonged to her husband at that time. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2880] That's right. [2881] But he would also, in the spirit of their marriage, they |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2882] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2883] they pooled everything ... didn't they? [2884] I mean, it was obvious that it was going to be ... erm, well, I mean, she'd been married, she's married, ten years |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2885] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2886] by the time |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [...] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2887] er the book ends. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2888] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2889] And this is a question that always occurs to me ... and I've read this novel several times, at the end of it ... why did she write it? [2890] Not why did Charlotte Bronte write it, why does Jane Eyre write it? [2891] Why does she write this story? [2892] Do you think? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2893] [clears throat] ... Because it's a long road from ... sad des desolation, being orphaned ... to true happiness. [2894] It's a love re ... really. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2895] Yes. [2896] It is a love story. [2897] It's also a spiritual journey and a, and a movement |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2898] It's this |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2899] to belonging and |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2900] journey of fulfilment isn't it? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2901] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2902] Having some |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [cough] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2903] some fulfilment ... through adversity. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2904] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2905] Really. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2906] Why would you need to write it ... if you'd had the journey? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2907] To get it out of yourself a |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2908] And exult [...] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2909] to ... make the beginning |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2910] Possibly yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2911] yes, to erm ... rational well to erm ... explain the beginning, you know, to, to get the ... hatred and the erm, sense of injustice out of your system. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2912] Interest which is, for er for the children. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2913] And also exposing |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2914] Possibly. [2915] Interest the children, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2916] exposing erm ... this to society ... what goes on in society. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2917] Well |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2918] Yes. [2919] We don't get any sense of Jane actually publishing this do |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2920] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2921] we? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2922] No |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2923] Or cross advertising either though. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2924] I've got no idea. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2925] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2926] It's a flaw |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2927] But they flaunted it didn't she? |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2928] in the story for me. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2929] Well why do people write their autobiographies? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2930] Yes! [2931] Exactly! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2932] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2933] So that she wouldn't |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2934] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2935] forget it? [laugh] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2936] Yes, there's that. [2937] There are hints, there are passages here and there where she goes into the present tense. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2938] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2939] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2940] Oh yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2941] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2942] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2943] And if, it's as if she were writing a diary, I decided. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2944] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2945] That was the effect |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [clears throat] |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2946] it had on me. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2947] Well, more or less, she talks to the reader ... and |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2948] She does talk to the reader, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2949] Maybe |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2950] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2951] she feels that the whole thing needs rationalizing and that she's just come,co come to the pi the point where she can rationalize everything for once in her life. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2952] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2953] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2954] And |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2955] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2956] she doesn't also want to forget |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2957] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2958] it. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2959] But then Maude did the same. [2960] Same ending |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2961] And no |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2962] entirely. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2963] Maude, ten years after ... er, sitting there surrounded by her little ones |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2964] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2965] erm ... and the man she loved. [2966] And she went through the same circum got exactly the same ending. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2967] It could be telling the children all of it in fact. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2968] Yes. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2969] It could be, yes. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2970] Mm mm. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2971] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2972] I do I mean, I'm asking you questions which I don't know the answer. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2973] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2974] There's a note here that the general confusion of dates and eras and passions and facts ... is even more irrational that anything Dickens did! |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) | [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2975] Well of course! [2976] She couldn't have got the [...] be because she wasn't yet twenty one. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2977] Oh I see. [2978] Is it becau |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2979] Yeah. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2980] She does seem to have quite a free hand for a woman under twenty one |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2981] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2982] didn't she? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2983] Mm. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2984] And suppo I assumed it's because she was orphan. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2985] It is really understandable |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2986] and, you know, if people don't care for you they aren't going to stop |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2987] No. |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2988] you doing certain things. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2989] No. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2990] I mean, in the last |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2991] Don't you think? |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2992] chapter she appeals to the reader, I know I came from etcetera, etcetera |
| Liz (PS5AX) |
[2993] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2994] so in the end she is |
| Unknown speaker (K60PSUNK) |
[2995] Yes, we can be |