| PS45G | Ag4 | m | (No name, age 52, no further information given) unspecified |
| PS45H | Ag4 | m | (No name, age 47, bnc project administrator, no further information given) unspecified |
| PS45J | Ag2 | f | (No name, age 32, editor, no further information given) unspecified |
| KGKPS000 | X | u | (No name, age unknown) unspecified |
| KGKPSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| KGKPSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) |
[1] Right I put this together ah very quickly just before you came in, I thought it would be useful to get some feedback on the education the two educational events that have taken place so far, now unfortunately I couldn't go to Topping Printing but you were there Ann |
| (PS45H) |
[2] Were you there as an [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[3] I wasn't, I wasn't there I'm afraid |
| (PS45G) |
[4] I thought you were, right none of us were there, the feedback that I got was that |
| (PS45H) |
[5] this was the at |
| (PS45G) |
[6] that it was extremely good but in actual fact it went on until twenty to nine at night |
| (PS45G) |
[7] goodness me |
| (PS45H) |
[8] but fifty per cent of the people who said they were coming didn't turn up and most of them didn't phone in or anything like that which was a little bit of an upset for the host erm and consequently there was a bit put in |
| (PS45H) |
[9] that's right because he discussed it with me |
| (PS45J) |
[10] yes |
| (PS45G) |
[11] erum was he upset? |
| (PS45H) |
[12] A little bit I think that he was just concerned that perhaps there might've been other people who might've wanted to come and if people had rung up and you had had a waiting list something could've been done about it |
| (PS45G) |
[13] There was no waiting list er |
| (PS45H) |
[14] but I think the other thing is that [sneeze] it's just a question of the people in our business supposed to be being professional communicators |
| (PS45J) |
[15] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[16] and you're not commissioned communicating professionally or particularly politely if you don't ring up that day or the next day anybody understands if you have a puncture a road accident a client crashes but there's nothing to actually stop you ringing up the next day and saying so sorry you couldn't make it |
| (PS45J) |
[17] that's right [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[18] and there'd a much worse instance similarly with the I P R at when forty two people had signed up for something and only five appeared |
| (PS45G) |
[19] ah ha |
| (PS45H) |
[20] and I think my concern is that I P R and B A I E might being to get a bad name with hosts if that got known |
| (PS45G) |
[21] mhm |
| (PS45J) |
[22] yes that's a bit embarrassing |
| (PS45G) |
[23] well talking headlines we have fifteen people wanted to come. [24] In the event eight did, but, everybody who couldn't come phoned up or got somebody to phone |
| (PS45H) |
[25] right |
| (PS45G) |
[26] up on their behalf so the message got through it would have been nice if we'd got ten at Talking Headlines this room takes ten comfortably um but Jack had done his homework he did a super presentation had everybody rolling around in |
| (PS45H) |
[27] aha |
| (PS45G) |
[28] laughter so that by the time we came to do the five practical ev exercises you know everybody was in a very relaxed and jolly mood but I think that's was it's about but from the results that we were getting from the practical exercises clearly what he said had taken root you know roll key words, roll them around in your mind er try running through letters of the alphabet to match up with your key word chains and you know if if if the word is ball try roll see if you can get it to rhyme and ultimately the creme de la creme is if you can actually get the title of a song or |
| (PS45J) |
[29] yes |
| (PS45G) |
[30] a well-known phrase or the name of a television game and then, so that had obviously [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[31] his his delivery I found very solid, I mean I didn't find it particularly humorous but I mean people weren't laughing that much were they? [32] I mean smiling smiling |
| (PS45G) |
[33] standing up at this end was a lot were you here when he went through all the old headlines of er |
| (PS45H) |
[34] yes yes , yes I was surprised people I suppose most people have seen those before actually |
| (PS45G) |
[35] oh I mean these are classics |
| (PS45H) |
[36] classics |
| (PS45G) |
[37] Oh I mean many of them were taken out of a book which had in the front price five and sixpence so a so I think that went very well and er I mean Jack was much encouraged by it so much so that he's going to actually offer to do it for another organisation that he's connected with |
| (PS45H) |
[38] aha |
| (PS45G) |
[39] he was was so pleased with the way the way it worked out he had never every done anything like that before |
| (PS45H) |
[40] oh right that's nice. [41] Is he retired now? |
| (PS45G) |
[42] he's retired now, yeah and sometimes well he used to go in and help Carl out at the Scottish Office when you were away producing your sprogs he edited |
| (PS45J) |
[43] [...] he did the issues he did very well |
| (PS45G) |
[44] yeah |
| (PS45J) |
[45] better headlines than we did |
| (PS45G) |
[46] he sometimes comes in and helps me out as well so very first class chap if you know anybody that needs a good [...] headline writer Jack's your man |
| (PS45J) |
[47] yep |
| (PS45G) |
[48] Upcoming events. [49] Talking audio visual that's an event that is taking place with S S K in Glasgow on the second of February I'm disappointed by the number of people who have said that they want to go largely because we've gone out of our way to do something in Glasgow |
| (PS45H) |
[50] It's always the same |
| (PS45J) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[51] and the Glasgow people aren't biting |
| (PS45H) |
[52] yeah how many people have you got? |
| (PS45G) |
[53] [...] I can probably tell you I have phoned |
| (PS45H) | |
| (PS45G) |
[54] and said could you please put the word around your people um well there's yourself Ann Packard erm |
| (PS45J) |
[55] What time is it George? |
| (PS45G) |
[56] It's six o'clock at S S K so that's [...] erm |
| (PS45H) |
[57] Mind you I've had an S S K presentation before so |
| (PS45G) |
[58] is three of Mercer's is four ... I would probably go through would be five would go through that would be six |
| (PS45J) |
[59] I'm going to try to get to that one George I'll let you know |
| (PS45G) |
[60] Aye, if we could get ten it would be nice |
| (PS45J) |
[61] it would be nice |
| (PS45G) |
[62] but I mean they were sort of saying anything over twenty four and were toiling a bit. [63] One of the interesting things about S S K is that they clearly see us as an organisation they want to court. [64] They put up a prize at the awards ceremony they're prepared to do all the art work for nothing or at cost price for the awards ceremony they laid on this evening for us now if three people turn up at their evening they gonna say as we putting our money in the right organisation |
| (PS45J) |
[65] yeah that's right |
| (PS45G) |
[66] so it's more than just an education visit here it's actually [...] |
| (PS45J) |
[67] its a real P R visit isn't it |
| (PS45H) |
[68] is it worth actually circulating any of the P R firms in Glasgow like |
| (PS45G) |
[69] what's happening is that the membership handbook should have been out last week but I think it's actually going out physically today and I've done a reminder which'll be mailed out with it erm making one or two little pointed remarks about blah blah blah this is a very important event and please note it is not in Edinburgh you know erm S S K are very supportive of us we should you know take advantage of this very important [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[70] but were they really hoping for twenty four people? |
| (PS45G) |
[71] They didn't know what they were hoping for quite honestly |
| (PS45H) |
[72] yes yes |
| (PS45G) |
[73] but I said that you know eighteen might be a push but I wouldn't be surprised if we got twelve or fourteen at that time of course we hadn't actually had any education events cos the one that we scheduled has been cancelled so I was perhaps a bit naive about how many people actually turn out to these things |
| (PS45H) |
[74] Yeah Glasgow you would really be pushed to get though mind you the attendance at the Black Museum was quite good |
| (PS45G) |
[75] ah ha, was that an I P R thing? |
| (PS45H) |
[76] No no that was ours |
| (PS45G) |
[77] right, okay so anyway that erm one's causing a little bit of concern, I've got another one scheduled for March which I was going to centre on here where will come along and talk to us about the Editor and the Royal Visit and you know ee ach dear me how glad I am to be away from the Scottish Office |
| (PS45H) |
[78] ha ha |
| (PS45G) |
[79] everybody's like a giggly virgin on their first date when you phone them up and ha ha ha I'll need to get permission [...] and have you spoken to and you know and we may need to talk and all I want you to do is come along for |
| (PS45H) |
[80] I know |
| (PS45G) |
[81] our mutual it helps them if we know how it works it helps us if we know what problems they encounter |
| (PS45H) |
[82] yeah he's talked to me actually as well about dealing with people who from the inside have dealt working with him doing royal visits because obviously that's quite useful a lesson for them to get over to people |
| (PS45G) |
[83] I mean we could probably both do a royal visit ourselves, I've done several |
| (PS45H) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[84] and I mean I have done several since I left the Scottish Office as well which is quite good and I thought that I might put Sandy at his ease by telling a couple of amusing incidents that have happened post the Scottish Office days |
| (PS45H) |
[85] yes |
| (PS45G) |
[86] er where I was asked by remember |
| (PS45H) |
[87] yes oh |
| (PS45G) |
[88] who was the Navy P R O. [89] He wandered into my office is a chubby Falstaffian figure who smokes a curved pipe |
| (PS45H) |
[90] whilst you're twiggy like me |
| (PS45G) |
[91] mm |
| (PS45H) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[92] gotta gotta royal visit coming up he said you've worked at the Scottish Office do you know anything about them and I said yes tell the Scottish Office they'll do all the [...] a Royal navy one I've got to do it [...] I said fine when is it? [93] Tomorrow ah have you had a dress rehearsal? [94] There's one happening today [...] in ten minutes I've got a car waiting outside |
| (PS45H) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[95] so I said right I'll come down and give you a you a hand with it and it was the re-dedication or re-commissioning of a ship |
| (PS45H) |
[96] right |
| (PS45G) |
[97] a very small ship, a frigate, and er the captain was at most Lieutenant Commander and the Princess Royal was doing the re-dedication and because it was the winter it was being done inside a big shed, that's the background. [98] We got there and the Lieutenant Commander Captain who looked about thirty two or thirty three ah was about six foot two with a great shock of blond hair and of course I immediately nicknamed him Admiral [...] because he looked Germanic |
| (PS45H) |
[99] yes, [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[100] and a he had the same unyielding attitude to life that Germans would have and a very bad temper. [101] So we got there and he said right okay you're the press chappy he's right I've put your press people over there so while [...] respect Lieutenant Commander that really won't do because everything including the Band of the Royal Marines is between them and the Princess Royal so we argued about this and the compromise eventually was that that everybody would have to stay there until the ceremony started and then we could bring the stills photographers round to the end and up to one side where it was all happening mainly to get a picture of his wife cutting the cake. [102] This is a tradition in the Royal Navy when a ship's being re-commissioned the youngest rate and the Captain's wife cut a ceremonial cake cake using the Captain's sword |
| (PS45H) |
[103] right |
| (PS45G) |
[104] right the royal personage stands to one side and smiles so you know we could could come in for this. [105] So I told the press the next morning who were mega grumpy at all of this and I don't blame them, so when the ceremony started Pat took the stills photographer round to the front and the television guys as the Princess began to inspect er the crew pulled all their gear through the Band of the Royal Marines over their toe caps under the tubas and pressed their cameras under the nose of the Princess Royal which wouldn't have happened had the Lieutenant Commander been prepared to listen to us and of course you could see him getting angrier and angrier |
| (PS45J) |
[106] oh dear |
| (PS45G) |
[107] then when his great moment came and his wife came to cut the cake all the photographers suddenly decided they needed to clean the lenses of their camera and his wife's picture was never taken . |
| (PS45H) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[108] So the message I think got through |
| (PS45H) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[109] so that I thought was a nice tale |
| (PS45J) |
[110] yes , good one yes |
| (PS45H) |
[111] I'll tell you a lovely story when we had the Queen at [...] the day before when we had had the dress rehearsal I'd been out to erm London [...] to pick erm up an old lady who's now dead, who very seldom got out and was pretty well house-bound to come and see the rehearsal as a little Sunday treat |
| (PS45J) |
[112] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[113] On the way down on that stretch of road from death one to death two I call them, the [...] roundabouts I suddenly realised if we were going to have a rehearsal we needed to have a bouquet of flowers didn't we so I leapt out of the car picked some weeds tied them up with a piece of strong so that the chap of our staff who was going to be in front of me was going to hold them during the rehearsal whilst I dashed up to play first of all the Lord Provost and then the Queen or the Lady Provost as she then was. [114] Anyway the next day Brocklesby is berthing and I can see the captain pointing at me, my hem was showing my petticoat was showing my hat off and afterwards I said to him erm what was so funny oh he said I was telling the Queen about you having those weeds for the rehearsal yesterday and she thought it was terribly funny |
| (PS45J) | [laugh] |
| (PS45H) |
[115] [laughing] so it took me a long time to live down my weeds the lady with the weeds [] |
| (PS45J) |
[116] that's right |
| (PS45G) |
[117] Brocklebury's a minesweeper |
| (PS45H) |
[118] minesweeper yeah |
| (PS45H) |
[119] but mind you we had much worse a problem that day because we had two sets of sniffer dogs who didn't like something [...] and the first lot that were in and didn't like something that we'd [...] |
| (PS45J) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[120] and though they went away and the bomb squad came they went away they they had a problem with their vehicles and the second lot of dogs didn't like the area either |
| (PS45J) |
[121] Oh right |
| (PS45G) |
[122] in the meantime Brocklesby was approaching and this one horrendous photograph of me looking very harassed [...] you can well imagine and my father ever pompous when he saw this photograph said huh where were your directors, wasn't one of them in charge, and I said no they were away having lunch, they were just going to arrive when they you know, anyway? |
| (PS45H) |
[123] It's all good fun royal visits I mean the last |
| (PS45J) |
[124] that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[125] one I did was with Caledonian Paper at Irvine and the Finns or the Swedes whoever own |
| (PS45G) |
[126] Finns they are |
| (PS45H) |
[127] were absolutely paranoid |
| (PS45G) | |
| (PS45H) |
[128] we rehearsed it and we rehearsed it and [...] I mean I didn't mind they were paying the bill for and I literally with a college took up residence for several days before it in a local hotel and we went through it in every fine detail |
| (PS45J) |
[129] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[130] and we knew exactly what photographs were going to be taken who was shaking who's hand and you know. [131] Right come the morning arrived and and somebody else I can't remember who though, and there we were all ready to go and were walking with the press into the massive great shed where they roll the paper and make it a massive place the size of a couple of football pitches, we were just going in the door and somebody said to me they're no gonna be using their flash guns are they? [132] I said yes why, they cannae do that mister he said it'll affect all the sensors on the machines oh ah |
| (PS45G) | [laugh] |
| (PS45H) |
[133] the whole place was gonna come to a halt if anybody fired a flash gun and furiously Fred grabbed the royal people and I grabbed the Finns and we started reorganising the present so they could take place under the enormous great windows that there are in [...] and nobody had said at any time a flash gun will stop the machines. [134] These are the sort of things that are |
| (PS45J) |
[135] oh no |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[136] where's that going to be? |
| (PS45H) |
[137] Well do here I think |
| (PS45J) |
[138] and when? |
| (PS45H) |
[139] It's March sometime erm |
| (PS45J) |
[140] do you have a rough date? |
| (PS45H) |
[141] aye |
| (PS45G) |
[142] you've got a firm date haven't you? |
| (PS45H) |
[143] [...] let's find it, you see the trouble with efficiency is that I find er so much paper |
| (PS45G) |
[144] [...] if you give me my basket I think you'll find it in there actually ... |
| (PS45H) |
[145] The fifteenth rings a bell ... |
| (PS45J) |
[146] fifteenth of Feb |
| (PS45H) |
[147] er no fifteenth of March |
| (PS45G) |
[148] no March |
| (PS45H) |
[149] rings a bell er because I [...] a circular out about it |
| (PS45J) |
[150] right |
| (PS45G) |
[151] fifteenth of March in here |
| (PS45H) |
[152] ya I thought that that sounded right okay |
| (PS45G) |
[153] right what day of the week is the fifteenth? |
| (PS45J) |
[154] It's a |
| (PS45G) |
[155] Tuesday |
| (PS45H) |
[156] [...] a Tuesday yeah okay good right |
| (PS45G) |
[157] I wonder if that [...] I'm now being serious is this room big enough if a lot of people want to come? |
| (PS45H) |
[158] A lot of people won't come, I mean I erm erm fairly confident now that if it's B A I E only we even out at about eight, I mean twenty can put their names down eight will turn up |
| (PS45J) |
[159] yes |
| (PS45G) |
[160] yes, I suppose actually really you see it's like the network evenings that there used to be in that ghastly little pub at the West End |
| (PS45H) |
[161] ah ha, maybe we should get a licence for this |
| (PS45G) |
[162] definitely |
| (PS45H) |
[163] all I'm allowed to retail in here is Morrisons [...] whisky |
| (PS45G) |
[164] well that's right, |
| (PS45H) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[165] you can provide the whisky and we'll hire the glasses |
| (PS45J) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[166] that's the way round the licensing regulations |
| (PS45H) |
[167] erm, right |
| (PS45G) |
[168] what time will it be? |
| (PS45H) |
[169] aye is it not in there? |
| (PS45G) |
[170] no, only |
| (PS45H) |
[171] then Sandy hasn't given me a time but I think I'd suggested to him between six and seven I think people like that they don't have to go home and [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[172] but talking estimating the next one is that the one that we'd originally called Talking Print Buying that I'd got [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[173] [...] yes so let's dwell on that because you've got some information Carolyn, you've got some information Ann |
| (PS45G) |
[174] yes, well I mean about two lots of minutes ago |
| (PS45H) |
[175] ah ha |
| (PS45G) |
[176] I put in a square bracket on the minutes |
| (PS45H) |
[177] right |
| (PS45G) |
[178] in October I think it was |
| (PS45H) |
[179] yes you're right |
| (PS45G) |
[180] which I couldn't find today ... did I not in the actual end approved version does it not say that I've got the tape and people fixed ... |
| (PS45H) |
[181] it's blue paper that it came off the fax machine I'm sure er [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[182] no, no, no this is the minute which was posted to you before I went to the States |
| (PS45H) |
[183] right, then it won't be on blue paper if it was posted but you did put down that two [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[184] that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[185] indicated that they're willing to come along |
| (PS45H) |
[186] right and you've got |
| (PS45J) |
[187] I've got the [...] by Manager for H M S O willing |
| (PS45H) |
[188] tremendous |
| (PS45J) |
[189] to take part which should be quite interesting I haven't really discussed it in detail with him because I wasn't sure who else was taking part and what sort of format we're thinking of having |
| (PS45H) |
[190] right , let's kick that about then Scottish Homes have offered us their facilities, they would act as host |
| (PS45G) |
[191] and would you think that was six o'clock again or would you like to make |
| (PS45H) |
[192] six o'clock seems to be a nice time, Scottish Homes said they would lay on coffee and |
| (PS45G) |
[193] and what number of people can they take? |
| (PS45H) |
[194] Again, er they were talking at the higher reach of our number |
| (PS45G) |
[195] twenty wasn't it? |
| (PS45H) |
[196] Aye |
| (PS45G) |
[197] They said something like that, they seemed fairly relaxed erm now what numbering is is this one that there would be any value opening up to others for the whole thing |
| (PS45G) |
[198] I think that if you've only got twenty spaces then that's difficult because we've got a hundred and something members most of whom are in the central belt |
| (PS45H) |
[199] but only eight of whom will come |
| (PS45J) |
[200] when you mean others who else do you mean? |
| (PS45H) |
[201] well I was thinking not so much [...] the Edinburgh [...] Communications Group ... |
| (PS45G) |
[202] but that's now got forty six members some of whom are mutual |
| (PS45H) |
[203] yeah |
| (PS45G) |
[204] but that means you've got potentially mm a hundred and thirty people perhaps |
| (PS45H) |
[205] of whom |
| (PS45G) |
[206] why don't you wait and see what the numbers are like and then you can always ring up a few people and say we've got a space if you'd like to come |
| (PS45H) |
[207] right, ... okay, when should we try and go for that maybe at the end of April beginning of May? |
| (PS45J) |
[208] End of April's fine I think |
| (PS45H) |
[209] right, erm ... |
| (PS45J) |
[210] what [...] we're gonna have three people taking part are we, three sort of speakers or? |
| (PS45H) |
[211] Well , do we need three speakers? erm |
| (PS45J) |
[212] We've got somebody from [...] haven't we the printer |
| (PS45H) |
[213] yes we have |
| (PS45G) |
[214] so we've got one or two [...] people because they thought they'd do a duo on design and print buying from them |
| (PS45H) |
[215] How long |
| (PS45J) | [clears throat] |
| (PS45H) |
[216] I mean could they do that in about quarter of an hour |
| (PS45G) |
[217] Why don't you say to them that they each organisation I mean H M S O and have ten minutes each for a presentation |
| (PS45J) |
[218] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[219] ah ha |
| (PS45G) |
[220] and then the rest is questions and answers |
| (PS45J) |
[221] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[222] we could happily give them fifteen minutes that would take up forty five minutes |
| (PS45G) |
[223] yes, and then |
| (PS45H) |
[224] [...] H M S O |
| (PS45J) |
[225] print buyer |
| (PS45H) |
[226] print buyer |
| (PS45G) |
[227] and design and print buying ... [...] then you have a slight break in the attention span if each person's fifteen minutes |
| (PS45H) |
[228] ah ha, yes |
| (PS45G) |
[229] and then question and answers |
| (PS45J) |
[230] yes , that seems reasonable ... what's the kind of remit of their presentation going to be are they going to look at problems which arise or |
| (PS45H) |
[231] I think what what we want to know is er the estimator at . [232] Now we all know because we're print buyers to a larger or greater degree but they're clients they over-estimate they add about twenty five per cent more on than they need and you have to send them back to sharpen their pencils several times before you've seen the estimate, they of course know that all print buyers are idiots who keep forgetting all the important things and don't give them half the information they need like the weight of paper or the fact that there's to be a pocket at the back so, I think if we got the man ... I think if we maybe started off with H M S O the print buyer which is more akin to what we are and say well you know these are the problems I've got I'm sitting with a six million pound budget buying for the whole of the government of Scotland and I have problems and these are the problems that I have, then we get to the wee man from who says now wait a minute boys I get the rubbish that you send out, that was the message and let's make it funny but slightly aggressive let's highlight the real problems because that's what it's about, we're not here for a nice night we're here to learn |
| (PS45G) |
[233] yes, right |
| (PS45H) |
[234] and then finally we could finish off with Bill and Ben the Flowerpot Men or whatever they want to call themselves from and they could say well we're the guys in between we've got clients out there but we have to deal with printers and estimators and this is what life is like for us. [235] I don't know if I'm unique, I suspect I'm not but I go to my two design people and I say right blah blah blah this is what we want to do but you organise the printer I want you as the designer to find a printer that you can work with but here's my timescale and it's up to them |
| (PS45G) |
[236] erm, yes and some of the design houses will mark up what then handle some of them won't in terms of after the design stage and that I think is something that some people don't always realise |
| (PS45H) |
[237] ah ha |
| (PS45J) |
[238] yes |
| (PS45G) |
[239] but some parts of the job if you do it yourself you're gonna save some money |
| (PS45H) |
[240] mhm |
| (PS45G) |
[241] whereas certain parts of their handling are going to be about fifteen twenty per cent |
| (PS45J) |
[242] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[243] okay, right let's define this task up a little bit |
| (PS45J) |
[244] then, right |
| (PS45H) |
[245] I will unless anybody else wants to do it I'll write to Len and say this is what we want the estimator to do |
| (PS45J) |
[246] yes, I'll contact |
| (PS45H) |
[247] could you firm it up a little bit with him you firm it up with I'll talk to Scottish Homes |
| (PS45J) |
[248] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[249] and tell them what's the nice girlie at Scottish Homes |
| (PS45G) | |
| (PS45H) |
[250] she's married to an Advocate isn't she? |
| (PS45G) |
[251] Is she? |
| (PS45H) |
[252] Think so ... |
| (PS45G) |
[253] right |
| (PS45H) |
[254] she doesn't spell her name like that [...] and I'll speak to within the next couple of working days |
| (PS45J) |
[255] can we have a date end of April |
| (PS45H) |
[256] fix up a date, end of April or the beginning of May and |
| (PS45J) |
[257] do you want a little bit of [...] done about each person |
| (PS45H) |
[258] it would be helpful but I'll [...] introduction [...] |
| (PS45J) |
[259] [...] H M S O have x million clients blah blah blah blah |
| (PS45H) |
[260] yeah, yeah |
| (PS45J) |
[261] so that gives them a little bit of introduction for each one |
| (PS45H) |
[262] so that we know and also it puts the guy in context for I mean these if I remember I mean H M S O are mega bucks buyers |
| (PS45J) |
[263] and even bigger now |
| (PS45H) |
[264] aye, aye |
| (PS45J) |
[265] they have this sort of automatic estimating system with key information just goes shooting out to the [...] amazing so, yeah a wee bit about each one would be helpful |
| (PS45H) |
[266] ah ha a little potted bit |
| (PS45J) |
[267] and then a discussion afterwards |
| (PS45H) |
[268] ah ha, erm yeah, well I mean okay if we say take fifteen minutes each and we start five or six minutes late each one will overrun by three [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[269] so they will have finished their speaking by seven and |
| (PS45H) |
[270] by seven and then it's up to the members [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[271] yes is the proposal for the is it coffee and sandwiches beforehand or at the end? |
| (PS45H) |
[272] I'll ask |
| (PS45G) |
[273] do you happen to know |
| (PS45H) |
[274] but um I'm a great believer that it's rather nice to have that going on while the event is going on you know you sit and munch a corned beef butty as you dribble your coffee down the front of your shirt |
| (PS45J) | [laugh] |
| (PS45H) |
[275] you can tell [...] |
| (PS45J) | [laugh] |
| (PS45G) |
[276] right, okay, |
| (PS45H) |
[277] okay, how're we doin how we doin |
| (PS45J) |
[278] good |
| (PS45H) |
[279] right, so |
| (PS45J) |
[280] I was going to speak in terms of numbers George it was just a wee thought that if there's going to be three or four of them we want at least eight of us if not it's gonna be a bit |
| (PS45G) |
[281] that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[282] that's right |
| (PS45J) |
[283] unbalanced |
| (PS45H) |
[284] I'm very happy if I could see fifteen or sixteen coming to this |
| (PS45J) |
[285] me too fifteen or six I think we need to think about you know the timing |
| (PS45H) |
[286] absolute |
| (PS45J) |
[287] got fifteen |
| (PS45H) |
[288] again, I mean I maybe shouldn't do this but I tend to take a very relaxed attitude to these things and if somebody wants to bring a pal or if somebody that would be interested I see it as P R for the B A I E you know |
| (PS45G) |
[289] Yes , I mean my view is that we put it out for members we see what the uptake is and then we can always look at the list and ring certain other people |
| (PS45J) |
[290] You might get some of Sandy's might want to come along, Sandy's people |
| (PS45H) |
[291] Sure , great, ah ha |
| (PS45J) |
[292] or if we're stuck get our heads together and drag in a few extra bodies |
| (PS45H) |
[293] that would be great but it would be nice to get about sixteen people |
| (PS45J) |
[294] Yes , I think so if it were just three or four of them you've got to have [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[295] well that would make your twenty wouldn't it because if you have four speakers and you're aiming for sixteen punters |
| (PS45J) |
[296] twenty people |
| (PS45H) |
[297] I mean let's be honest if we all turned out that's five and if the rest of the Executive Committee turned out that would virtually take it up to ten we wouldn't be looking for many more after that |
| (PS45J) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[298] well the Committee is fourteen people anyway [...] isn't it or ten people |
| (PS45H) |
[299] aye but I mean some of them are on this Committee as well I mean Wendy and I for a start erm ... so that would be good right let's try and give that one a [...] |
| (PS45J) |
[300] right , okay |
| (PS45H) |
[301] let's now say that a joint event with the I P R and the E I C G I'm having a lot of difficulty making contact with the I P R |
| (PS45G) |
[302] Why? |
| (PS45H) |
[303] And I don't what I get |
| (PS45G) |
[304] I never have |
| (PS45H) |
[305] for my my hundred and ninety pounds a year |
| (PS45G) |
[306] do you mean with the I P R in London |
| (PS45H) |
[307] No with the I P R in Scotland |
| (PS45G) |
[308] well what's the problem? |
| (PS45H) |
[309] Right, the problem is that I can't seem to get through on the telephone, I phoned and her secretary came back and said you've to phone and she gave me a guy's name like and I got a number for him so I phoned it, ah he works in our Edinburgh office I phoned the Edinburgh office. [310] I'm sorry he's not in today I said that's okay I'll call tomorrow. [311] I don't like leaving messages |
| (PS45G) |
[312] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[313] on B A I E things cos I don't know how other people's offices react |
| (PS45H) |
[314] so I phoned him back the next day, ah he's in our Glasgow office today so I phoned the Glasgow, he's on the phone, I said that's okay I'll call back. [315] So I called back again and the number was engaged, so I called back again and got through and he'd left for the day |
| (PS45G) |
[316] Ah ha, I tell you |
| (PS45H) |
[317] I phoned the Edinburgh office again the nex and I thought I'm giving this up I'm gonna write |
| (PS45G) |
[318] George funnily enough the time that we did a course with I P R before |
| (PS45H) |
[319] mhm |
| (PS45G) |
[320] we actually ended up with a lot more I P R people and we'd done all the work and they got most of the money now that's fine that's the way life goes sometimes, but I must admit I think that depending on how big an event you want to make it you're maybe as well to keep it an B A I E event and open it up quietly at the end |
| (PS45J) |
[321] yep |
| (PS45H) |
[322] I mean what about the E I C G, again this seems one that I thought might interest them? [323] ... Who are by and large Edinburgh based as well |
| (PS45G) |
[324] Yes, I mean I don't think there's a problem about opening it up to them except their meetings traditionally are in the early morning |
| (PS45H) |
[325] ah ha |
| (PS45G) |
[326] erm |
| (PS45H) |
[327] Anyway I've spoken to and is tied up until February which is fine because |
| (PS45G) |
[328] right |
| (PS45H) |
[329] basically so am I, I've got to write a [...] news in the next few days so I'll see in early February tell him about the ideas, I've also been in touch with another lobbying firm, I say been in touch but it's quite easy because |
| (PS45G) |
[330] not the Westminster whatever they're called |
| (PS45H) |
[331] No um Michael Fraser Associates have now started a lobbying operation which is run for them by the former Chief Executive of the Tory Party in Scotland whose name I've forgotten but he lives down at Tiningham in East Lothian ah, now if I could get him in if Fred doesn't object and again if Fred didn't object and the other guy didn't object it might be worth getting a member of Parliament in [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[332] That would I mean that would determine which day of the week you'd try and do it probably wouldn't it? [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[333] erm well I mean there are some MPs any day of the week will do you know there anybody's for a good meal but erm |
| (PS45G) | [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[334] I mean ah I know I know but then he's pretty tied up and I know very well but even trying to get lunch with is difficult but there may be there may be I mean I know quite well but would want . [335] He is [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[336] What about somebody like |
| (PS45J) |
[337] I was gonna say he'd be very good |
| (PS45H) |
[338] yep yep |
| (PS45G) |
[339] No I find him quite helpful |
| (PS45H) |
[340] aha |
| (PS45G) |
[341] when I've taken things to him I must admit |
| (PS45H) |
[342] right well that's a possibility I mean |
| (PS45G) |
[343] So when are you thinking about that in the summer |
| (PS45H) |
[344] Well I don't know it would probably have to be May or June I think erm |
| (PS45G) |
[345] May or June right |
| (PS45H) |
[346] if we if we get it off the ground at all it may be we'd want to carry it over till the Autumn and start the new season with it. [347] So that's really just to let you know |
| (PS45G) |
[348] right |
| (PS45H) |
[349] what's going on at the moment and where I am with it |
| (PS45H) |
[350] I'll quickly rattle through the next one effectively nothing more has happened at Napier, they went off for their Christmas holidays about the fourth of November and came back about the nineteenth of January er, not quite as bad as that but nearly as I mean they've even longer holidays than we've got and we get a fortnight at Christmas and New Year |
| (PS45G) |
[351] I think you meant the fourth of December and not fourth of November |
| (PS45H) |
[352] Well November, I meant the fourth of November it seems to be for ever anyway I spoke to the Head of the Department when they came back and he said I must admit we've done nothing from the point of view of putting things on paper but a lot of thinking has gone into it I must really sit down now and commit things to paper. [353] But he reckoned we would be on course for a start in April for the er certificate er which would be twelve ... half day day release courses |
| (PS45G) |
[354] I was interested in the thing in B A I E news which you had been talking about getting grants for people to do it |
| (PS45H) |
[355] Yes, that was a bit that's been a bit hyped up erm ... |
| (PS45G) |
[356] that intrigued me because it didn't seem to me that it was to be eligible |
| (PS45H) |
[357] well the the [...] have a training roll and it may well be that the [...] will be able to I mean I haven't spoken for example but they have taken over the functions of the old Manpower Services Commission training agency. [358] Also organisations like ours are members of the Construction Industry Training Board so for instance if was going along we might get a [...] from the C I T B so I mean grants might be available if people rout around for them. [359] So that basically is it how would we see the course's structure I don't think we've got time to do that today I wanted really to just to throw some ideas with you good folks and get the benefit of your thoughts and experience so that I could go back to Napier and say this is what my committee says |
| (PS45G) |
[360] Yes, I haven't brought the modular things I mentioned to you on the phone the other day but I think it would be very useful to sit down and look at structuring that |
| (PS45H) |
[361] yeah |
| (PS45G) |
[362] which is what I've done for something else and what we simply did was to take an A 4 landscape sheet erm and carve a syllabus over I think that was sixteen or eighteen weeks or something up, and divide it into you know units of competence, elements of competence and the assignments and the homework |
| (PS45H) |
[363] to my mind probably the most hardest part of teaching somebody something at Napier will be actually how to write ah, everything else is a mechanical function that they can learn layout, scaling photographs like that. [364] How do how do you teach somebody to [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[365] well there's an interesting chap who lives in South Queensferry who does writing courses for the public library |
| (PS45H) |
[366] ah ha |
| (PS45G) |
[367] and my Japanese [...] when I was in the States found the leaflet and when I cam back she said wouldn't this be of interest to you for my own [...] and then she said and what about your project because there will be people there who write and dead dead true. [368] You know I've got quite a lot of material from the corpus from it. [369] Nice chap and he teaches creative writing in [...] Glasgow, used to be a teacher then a teacher trainer and then I think took early retirement and he does this but made the point that he simply uses it for extra income for pleasure and interest as opposed I suppose to a way of writing you know so |
| (PS45H) |
[370] But he's never been a journalist |
| (PS45G) |
[371] No, but again in terms of creative writing and feature writing, that's maybe you could get two people to do a duo, one from the journalist side and one from more general side |
| (PS45H) |
[372] okay I think what we might think about doing is maybe just having a meeting for an hour one evening on that one subject |
| (PS45J) |
[373] yes brainstorming , I think so |
| (PS45H) |
[374] I mean Wendy's ill and Gordon's got stuck in Manchester |
| (PS45G) |
[375] right |
| (PS45H) |
[376] both of whom phoned in this afternoon. [377] I think it would be nice if we all got together so will we aim to do that sometime in the next month or so and I'll tell Napier that that we're doing that |
| (PS45J) |
[378] let's do that |
| (PS45G) |
[379] Would you like to see a sample page of this other thing |
| (PS45H) |
[380] aye, why not, why not the final thing was |
| (PS45G) |
[381] Is it going to be based really on what's in the |
| (PS45H) |
[382] Editor's Handbook |
| (PS45G) |
[383] Editor's Handbook in part |
| (PS45H) |
[384] yeah, that's the core but it needs fleshing out more and a has agreed that you know it's if you just stuck to the Editor's Handbook it's too narrow and it does need, I mean B A I E in London thus far are being extremely helpful if slightly cautious and I've to go down and talk to the revamped education committee when the revamped education committee gets around to having a meeting |
| (PS45G) |
[385] Well it's due to have one very soon |
| (PS45H) |
[386] I mean there are all sorts of little peculiarities for example you do not have to be a member of B A I E at any level to sit B A I E exams. [387] That's daft |
| (PS45G) |
[388] I thought you did because to do |
| (PS45H) |
[389] exactly |
| (PS45G) |
[390] I know, hang on I'm not sure whether that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[391] well I have it I have it from the words of himself er |
| (PS45G) |
[392] because I thought you had to be in post this is what we had a problem with with Napier's request for recognition |
| (PS45H) |
[393] You can take a B A I E examination without being a member of the association at any level because I've said that what we should do is we should insist because Napier want to bring a lot of students in on this |
| (PS45G) |
[394] mm |
| (PS45H) |
[395] and they want to make it an elected module for people doing other things |
| (PS45G) |
[396] Ah yes, but now that's very interesting because that's not the same as was the old regulation with the H N D recognition with Napier, and it used to be as I understood it that you had to actually be in membership and leave a period of time between doing the certificate and the diploma. |
| (PS45H) |
[397] Anyway, there we are, erm so I mean there are things like that also er we need to work out how we divvy up the exam fee, I mean I've said to B A I E but they haven't so far [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[398] the exam fee |
| (PS45H) |
[399] yeah, they haven't so far [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[400] what do you mean by the exam fee? |
| (PS45H) |
[401] the forty pound fee to sit the exam |
| (PS45G) |
[402] ah you mean divvy it up with who? |
| (PS45H) |
[403] With Napier, B A I E charge [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[404] but Napier are going to be teaching the course Napier |
| (PS45H) |
[405] sure |
| (PS45G) |
[406] aren't going to be conducting the examination |
| (PS45H) |
[407] Ah well you see that's what I'm talking about as well, Napier are saying if your guys want to set the exams fine but we did in fact in the last exam paper find a fundamental flaw. [408] There was a question that could not be answered by students outside London because |
| (PS45G) |
[409] who sat that |
| (PS45H) |
[410] a London colloquialism has been used, Napier were saying that we're doing the tutoring we would be happy to set the exam paper but with say [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[411] but the exam paper was common for the United Kingdom |
| (PS45H) |
[412] sure, well er |
| (PS45G) |
[413] so you're saying you want to make a different exam paper for Scotland |
| (PS45H) |
[414] no, what I'm saying is I think that's something that the B A I E education committee nationally should sit down and have a look at, I mean it may well be that at the end of the day Napier would set a better exam paper than they would er, also I've suggested to them and again they haven't [...] that Napier validate the course do the marking but with perhaps two B A I E fellows |
| (PS45G) |
[415] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[416] as part of the team |
| (PS45G) |
[417] yes, that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[418] and if we divvied up the exam fee on a fifty per cent basis it would mean that B A I E were getting twenty quid for doing nothing but probably more twenty quids than they would get normally because students who would be attracted in through Napier would be paying their forty quid as well |
| (PS45G) |
[419] mm |
| (PS45J) |
[420] right |
| (PS45H) |
[421] so all of these things are put so finally |
| (PS45G) |
[422] Can I just go back [...] |
| (PS45J) | [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[423] you've got children to collect |
| (PS45J) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[424] what I don't understand though is if Napier students get a certificate or a diploma are they going to be able to call themselves D I P M A I E without being a member of the organisation. [425] That seems to me a complete and utter nonsense |
| (PS45J) |
[426] that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[427] well if yes if you can sit the exam already without being a B A I E member presumably you can do that already ... [whispering] it seems daft [] Carol please [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[428] George I'm not being [...] but is he sure he's right |
| (PS45H) |
[429] yes |
| (PS45J) |
[430] do you want to set a date for another meeting just now or do you want to get in touch later George? |
| (PS45H) |
[431] I think it'd be better [...] it's just than I'm under a wee bit of pressure at the moment to be in thirty five different locations [...] |
| (PS45J) |
[432] okay give me a shout then |
| (PS45H) |
[433] I will do, I will do I mean it's actually easier [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[434] Carol give me your number |
| (PS45J) | |
| (PS45G) |
[435] and your address |
| (PS45J) | |
| (PS45G) | |
| (PS45J) |
[436] I've got a phone and a fax |
| (PS45H) |
[437] How's by the way? |
| (PS45J) |
[438] slim, [...] I'm still involved with the prison service thing but I need something else |
| (PS45H) |
[439] ah ha |
| (PS45J) |
[440] bits and pieces but I need something else of the same size, you know |
| (PS45H) |
[441] right, right |
| (PS45J) |
[442] so I'm looking for one other thing which is not too big and not too small |
| (PS45G) |
[443] How |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[444] does the prison service come out? |
| (PS45J) |
[445] Quarterly |
| (PS45H) |
[446] is looking for a job if you need an assistant |
| (PS45J) |
[447] [laughing] I'm sure he is [...] [] |
| (PS45H) |
[448] i was talking to him yesterday |
| (PS45G) |
[449] he's con how's his convalescence going? |
| (PS45H) |
[450] I haven't heard David sounding so lively |
| (PS45J) |
[451] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[452] and chirpy for many many years |
| (PS45J) |
[453] yes much more relaxed |
| (PS45G) |
[454] but did somebody else say to me that he's taking action against the Scottish Office |
| (PS45J) |
[455] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[456] according to a daily letter he and |
| (PS45J) |
[457] [...] a quarter of a million, I'm not sure of the figures |
| (PS45H) |
[458] post traumatic stress, I have my own views about what will happen there |
| (PS45J) |
[459] yeah. [460] the lawyer, the Admiralty lawyer seems to think they've got a good case |
| (PS45G) |
[461] who's doing it? |
| (PS45J) |
[462] the fellow who did the [...] |
| (PS45H) | [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[463] ah the people who do the the |
| (PS45H) | [...] |
| (PS45J) |
[464] what erm what was the name of the disaster |
| (PS45H) |
[465] Piper Alpha |
| (PS45J) |
[466] that's the one so they seem to think we've got a good case so |
| (PS45H) |
[467] when I mean |
| (PS45G) |
[468] the interesting thing about that is why didn't somebody of his maturity and experience ask for it |
| (PS45H) |
[469] well, that's a good point you see somebody who has slogged their way for a decade through messy complicated family litigation or have even represented myself in court in front of a judge in the court of session and one, and I'm very proud of this I did this last May um I know how tough the going is |
| (PS45G) |
[470] yes, yes |
| (PS45H) |
[471] er, when you know you go home and lying on the doormat on the Friday night is a great tome of paper that came second post which made me out to be the biggest idiot philanderer, thief, cheat and liar in the world |
| (PS45J) |
[472] of course |
| (PS45H) |
[473] and after a time you know you say ha and you just [...] because the lawyer for the other side always goes for the very worst scenario |
| (PS45G) |
[474] yes, yes |
| (PS45H) |
[475] and I can't see the two people involved being able to stomach that very easily because questions like why did you not ask for counselling at the time or you were in charge and why did you not ensure he had any adequate [...] |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) |
[476] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[477] I could see this getting very nasty very quickly |
| (PS45J) |
[478] I think I'd probably settle out of court [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[479] aye |
| (PS45J) | [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[480] aye |
| (PS45J) |
[481] [...] very happy |
| (PS45H) |
[482] aye |
| (PS45J) |
[483] shut them up |
| (PS45H) |
[484] aye |
| (PS45J) |
[485] quarterly [...] |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS45H) |
[486] right |
| (PS45J) |
[487] it's just about to come out in three weeks time |
| (PS45G) |
[488] oh really because it would have been nice if you could have put something in the corpus about the prisoners who help with the corpus actually |
| (PS45H) |
[489] or a bit in the B A I E Communicators Newsletter in Scotland you know here's a member that's launched a new publication for the Scottish prison service |
| (PS45J) |
[490] yes we could do |
| (PS45H) |
[491] but it won't be read by the cons it'll be read by the screws |
| (PS45J) |
[492] that's right |
| (PS45H) |
[493] who are in some cases worse than we thought |
| Unknown speaker (KGKPSUNK) | [laugh] |
| (PS45H) |
[494] Carol thanks very much for coming in okay |
| (PS45J) |
[495] thanks a lot be in touch give me a buzz, any time okay bye |
| (PS45G) |
[496] goodbye [...] home right the structure of the course |
| (PS45H) |
[497] aye, let's have a separate meeting on that I mean I've largely left it up to and and one or two others that I've met up there |
| (PS45G) |
[498] who else have you met up there because I was so surprised [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[499] hellish on names I can't remember |
| (PS45G) |
[500] because I'm so surprised that and said they didn't know anything about it |
| (PS45H) |
[501] there were four people at the last meeting er and two others from the department a male and a female who looked after the bits of the department but I cannot now remember what their names were let me just see if I've got my notes which were written on the inside of a British Airways flight ticket ... [door knock] come in, hi ya |
| (KGKPS000) |
[502] hello |
| (PS45G) |
[503] you're being recorded |
| (PS45H) |
[504] the ill one enters the room |
| (KGKPS000) |
[505] what's her name again? |
| (PS45G) |
[506] Bella |
| (KGKPS000) |
[507] just one message for you |
| (PS45H) |
[508] oh |
| (KGKPS000) |
[509] aye, he's off now |
| (PS45H) |
[510] I'll call him tomorrow |
| (KGKPS000) |
[511] [...] finished transcribing those notes |
| (PS45H) |
[512] but you must be fairly near the end |
| (KGKPS000) |
[513] aye hope so |
| (PS45H) |
[514] aye |
| (KGKPS000) |
[515] they seem to be going on and on and on |
| (PS45H) |
[516] right okay |
| (KGKPS000) |
[517] I'll do that first thing tomorrow morning |
| (PS45H) |
[518] bless you |
| (KGKPS000) |
[519] [...] come in which will be about what lunchtime |
| (PS45H) |
[520] I would reckon I'll be finished with Norman about ten o'clock it takes me an hour and a half to drive down half past eleven say I'm in here about twelve o'clock right, cheers |
| (KGKPS000) |
[521] okay thanks a lot goodbye |
| (PS45H) |
[522] we have I mean this company |
| (PS45G) |
[523] you've got N V Q stuff there, which is that? [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[524] this company moves at such a rapid rate of knots that I have a meeting tomorrow morning with the Managing Director Building and Property Development at his house in Pitlochrie which is the only time he's literally coming back to change his shirt before he goes wandering round the world again so the only way I can get him is to go up and stay with the in-laws over night and see him at breakfast time tomorrow. [525] I haven't in fact got [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[526] right don't worry |
| (PS45H) |
[527] so, erm I mean think we're in their hands and that's why I was a bit apprehensive about doing publicity for it at such an early stage because I like to see i's dotted and t's crossed er but however I'll chase them up again in the next few days |
| (PS45G) |
[528] but are the point about how it's structured is if for example it's going to be open to students at Napier |
| (PS45H) |
[529] Napier |
| (PS45G) |
[530] what about the students in the Communications Department at Queen Margaret College? |
| (PS45H) |
[531] if they wanted to come along to it they could |
| (PS45G) |
[532] But why don't you allow them to run a similar course there because it would mean more student members |
| (PS45H) |
[533] two things |
| (PS45G) |
[534] and more students doing the exam |
| (PS45H) |
[535] right, two things first of all I mean I think this is the first one and once Napier get it up and running I think it's exportable |
| (PS45G) |
[536] yes but I think when you look at how it's structured and whether it's modular structure and its content it's got to be written that it will be United Kingdom exportable not merely |
| (PS45H) |
[537] sure I mean yes Napier have |
| (PS45G) |
[538] Well I think it's been open to any higher education institution to grab this idea because it's been around for a long time, the great beauty of Napier is to some degree it's a centre of excellence it's got its B A course so has Queen Margaret but at the bottom end but why should I say the bottom end at the bottom end it's got the B A communications course at the top end it's got apprentice training for printers. [539] So everything's there, printing presses repro separation houses, sheet film, computer set up and Apple Macs and everything is there, it's actually a very impressive set up erm, the Queen Margaret's course, I'm slightly dubious about I once had a colleague I'm going back a decade who had been employed on the basis of doing the communications course at Queen Margaret I think, and it turned out that it wasn't communications as we understood it, it wasn't our sort of communications P R newspapers and things like that, it was communications on a much broader, broader front so [...] it didn't actually fit in to the world of P R and what happened was I then had to sit down and train this woman from scratch and get rid of a lot of the preconceived notions that she had come in with she had brought from Queen Margaret's College. [540] I mean I've had Fife College on the phone as well saying you know why can't we do it and Alec [...] we're really now we can do no more until Napier come up if for some reason Napier fell down on the job then I think I've got enough knowledge about what we're doing now but I would start running it round the other colleges including Telford who are doing a distance learning course |
| (PS45H) |
[541] Oh yes but they've been doing distance learning course they've got the biggest distance learning course in Europe |
| (PS45G) |
[542] Yeah but they're doing the distance learning course at the moment on publicity and P R I think erm I had some papers about that somewhere |
| (PS45H) |
[543] well this is the open learning opportunities here they've got erm various things including the [...] communications and so on |
| (PS45G) |
[544] right they're doing an H N C in communications for business and there are modules in that that would actually suit some of our |
| (PS45H) |
[545] who have you met down there |
| (PS45G) |
[546] I haven't met anybody they mail shot us um I thought I'd brought it with me |
| (PS45H) |
[547] cos I've met I've met with them before |
| (PS45G) |
[548] aha |
| (PS45H) |
[549] on some of their things and in fact two of their people came to the intellectual property thing [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[550] right |
| (PS45H) |
[551] so I think in a way it would be quite nice to sit down with somebody from each of the colleges to hammer out the syllabus because Napier will see it from Napier's point of view about what's easiest for them to teach and what this and what the other whereas I suspect if you also sat down with and and people you might get a broader discussion base |
| (PS45G) |
[552] I have a built in um caution of those who wander in the groves of academe I always feel they're a bit divorced from the real world |
| (PS45H) |
[553] I don't think you would I certainly don't think you would find divorced from the real world because he's involved in consultancy work and research work with the national companies out with the organisation |
| (PS45G) |
[554] [...] I'd like to see what hard nosed er B A I E people would make of it you know people who are making a living from doing the same well you know when I employ somebody coming into the business this is what I want them to be able to do um this has always been of course an [...] a criticism |
| (PS45H) |
[555] yes could we sit down and write the two of us some pages to put to this next meeting so that we have actually got some meat in front of us? |
| (PS45G) |
[556] Well we could try and do that my I've got a workload that would choke a camel at the moment because I'm also the admin officer at the moment for the Public Relations flight of the R A F E R. [557] Because of a lecture I gave last weekend I've to write a paper on how P R audits can be applied to the military which is great fun and an acknowledgement that people of a senior level were listening to my lecture but, um it's put quite a bit of work on me. [558] But by all means if you've got something bring it along and that would give us a starter for five ... I'm keen to see us also trying to once we've got this going going down the S P Q road ah had lunch with the other day at [...] I mean it was I mean she wasn't meeting him necessarily wearing a B A I E hat of not um and I think she I think she touched on that though while while while they were lunching. erm I put down progress because I was thinking of the Pilgrims Progress at the time |
| (PS45H) |
[559] erm Yes it's quite interesting I mean the if you go and look at the computerised facility that I'd found about communications training, there are something like three hundred and ninety two sources of training in Scotland. [560] Those obviously include all the further education colleges that do the basic um [...] and the basic [...] things and then the H N C H N D it gives you the open learning things which includes then the private sector people [...] communicate and all sorts of other agencies, erm it depends really what you see as a beginner, do you mean a beginner in the communications field in its entirety, or do you mean a beginner as an in-house industrial editor or a freelancer by definition a beginner is not likely to be a freelancer? |
| (PS45G) |
[561] Aha That's right, it would be somebody of ... one rung down perhaps from and half a rung down from if you can put that in context I mean is an absolute beginner she knew nothing about this business two and a half years ago |
| (PS45H) |
[562] What had she done before she came to you? |
| (PS45G) |
[563] She was the office junior |
| (PS45H) |
[564] right |
| (PS45G) |
[565] And she had one or two hires including higher art and then somebody said oh that would be good for the P R department is looking for staff so she now is doing a superb job running a marketing operation, editing an internal newspaper [...] it all herself and erm ... all of that I taught her, now I want to move her on to the stage where she can get professional recognition for this, now that is what I call an absolute beginner |
| (PS45H) |
[566] yeah so do the certificate |
| (PS45G) |
[567] to do the certificate |
| (PS45G) |
[568] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[569] and then with great rapidity after that the diploma so that she could be erm |
| (PS45G) |
[570] do you know I'm still foxed about [...] saying [...] to do it |
| (PS45H) |
[571] well but the important thing is she's engaged to be married I would reckon by the time she's about twenty-six she'll be looking for time out to have a family but by that time hopefully she's [...] and when she's thirty-two or thirty-three can come back into the business and say I've got a [...] and the door opens that much more easily |
| (PS45G) |
[572] Of course, I mean the government view is that people will come back with S V Q's and that is what's going to do it. [573] Being [...] certainly lost an opportunity by not being it's only body there is an editing element in the book publishing section from the P G B and there are elements relating to us in the S P G [...] of the Periodical Training Council and there will be bits of them in the public relations in the marketing one of which I've got a copy of the draft, but ... you know there is nothing all embracing B T E C do graphics and journalism but there is no single forum, I mean that's what so astonishing and interestingly somebody at B T E C told me the other day there's been a bit of a problem about the the book editing part of the editing level three element um, and that's partly political as to editing versus production because production's level four and editing is level three, and that has made some problems apparently |
| (PS45H) |
[574] right, right what I see as an interesting possibility the papers that we got in this week from Telford College that came to me |
| (PS45G) |
[575] About open learning |
| (PS45H) |
[576] About open learning and they've got an H N C in Business Communications, now they also say that you could do this as a student at the college. [577] There are three elements of that that fall within the scope of B A I E type learning one is an interviewing technique, one is an introduction to public relations |
| (PS45G) |
[578] yeah interviewing in terms of staff interviewing |
| (PS45H) |
[579] I don't know it was a two liner, um an intro an introduction to marketing and P R and an introduction to internal communications [...] were talking about you know the house newspaper, now that's the |
| (PS45G) |
[580] and this is distance learning? |
| (PS45H) |
[581] yeah |
| (PS45G) |
[582] yes |
| (PS45H) |
[583] This is three elements out of about nine or ten, now if they could be persuaded that if people phoned us up ... and said blah blah blah I want to learn this we could say well Telford will let you do this one unit of the course, they learn the one unit of the course, they say right I'd now like to learn about let's say photography and we find out that Queen Margaret's College in their course have an element on photography so we point the student in that direction and then they do this [...] hold on a second |
| (PS45G) |
[584] but you can't you can't dip into modules of that can you don't you have to do the whole thing? |
| (PS45H) |
[585] Why can't they dip into modules because once they've learned that they then come to us and we say right you're at the stage where you can do the certificate in Industrial Editing sit our exam |
| (PS45G) |
[586] But I think the difficulties buying into sections of an H N C course |
| (PS45H) |
[587] [clears throat] Well that would be up to the colleges, if they're commercially astute they'll say right yeah twenty-five quid for that, in fact it would be a lot less because it's only for three months [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[588] but I don't think, I don't think [...] I think you have to pay a candidate fee as well as the course fees so you |
| (PS45H) |
[589] right, well that's the sort of things that I think we want to find out and in slower time I was actually going to ring the yeah at Telford and say speak to me about this and maybe pop in one morning on my way into town and just say this is the idea how does it grab you and if they say you're not on fine, but it's things like that that I think we want to explore. [590] Napier have said that once they get this course up and running there's absolutely no reason why experienced people like us can't dip in and out for a one off |
| (PS45G) |
[591] ya the other people who I think would be quite interested at looking at something like that would be the new Business Development Centre at Queen Margaret I think that's much more up their line |
| (PS45H) |
[592] is this erm is this Ann Packard enterprises this? |
| (PS45G) |
[593] No, no no this is them wanting to get off a course off the ground |
| (PS45H) |
[594] right |
| (PS45G) |
[595] in fact the girl who did the mailing for them didn't do it properly so in fact it's unlikely to happen erm ... they asked me because I know that since she's now leaving the Vice-Principal through network erm ... and and they were thinking of getting something together like that, I didn't write this that's not my writing but just let me tell you I don't write a twenty- four clock, twenty-four hour clock with full stops in it |
| (PS45H) |
[596] aha right it's a bit odd isn't it? |
| (PS45G) |
[597] erm ... so no certainly they asked me about it and so on but I think that rather like their food forum they might like to get a communications forum going erm because they've been thinking about having a Business Club and various other things because they're involved with the [...] Management Programme and all sorts of things and they maybe going to do some training for heads and people like that |
| (PS45H) |
[598] I mean [clears throat] this is something that we could maybe be of help to in fact maybe something that I could be of help to them on because I actually do lectures on public relations how to assess what I mean at a very basic level you want to communicate with press how do you do it but before you do it why do you want to do it. [599] Have you made up your mind what your message what've you got to tell the press this is how you go about targeting |
| (PS45G) |
[600] I know I had to explain to somebody in Chambers the other day something to do with the Corpus that it wasn't where was the story there wasn't a story |
| (PS45H) |
[601] right |
| (PS45G) |
[602] erm |
| (PS45H) |
[603] people get great ideas we want to give this a big show at the press to which I say well ho ho ho step back |
| (PS45G) |
[604] but they are going to be running short courses there about |
| (PS45H) |
[605] well, if they were interested in speaking to me I could probably put them on to not just myself but members of my flight, it isn't my flight it's flight erm and there are several of us in Scotland who could come in and do things like that for a modest remuneration erm |
| (PS45G) |
[606] ya, they're feeling their way it's only been open |
| (PS45H) |
[607] I mean you know well is probably just about to become a member of our flight I mean he's going through he's just about to go to the R A F College in Cranwell |
| (PS45G) |
[608] yes to do what? |
| (PS45H) |
[609] There is a specialist Public Relations Flight in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserves |
| (PS45G) |
[610] yes and in the Air Force Reserves |
| (PS45H) |
[611] he's just about to come into it |
| (PS45G) |
[612] Oh really |
| (PS45H) |
[613] Yes |
| (PS45G) |
[614] He's the young lad who was at S T D he's now working for himself |
| (PS45H) |
[615] that's right, that's right and now that he's shaken off the Scottish Office I invited him to come along to it as well so we may find |
| (PS45G) |
[616] but how do you I mean do you have to be taken on as officers of the R A F |
| (PS45H) |
[617] You have to go through a short course at the R A F College Cranwell and then once that that teaches you the R A F side of it makes you into an officer because at the end of the day you maybe there to do public relations but if the spaghetti hits the fan you're an officer and you're a combatant and you know you carry a gun around when you're in a war zone and you know you're expected to use it and if the senior officer of the unit next to you gets shot and you're the most senior officer then you take over |
| (PS45G) |
[618] you're then commanding the unit |
| (PS45H) |
[619] it's always a bit a it came home to me ... with great a vigour and enthusiasm when I was walking round the kitting station at R A F Innsworth with a supermarket trolley getting it filled with kit and when I got to the end they handed me my dog tags and my gun, I thought what have I let myself in for ... because I'd never worn dog tags before and I'd never had a gun with live ammunition in it that got strapped to my hip and you suddenly realise, I'm going into a real war it was quite a nerve racking experience for a few days |
| (PS45G) |
[620] But had you had presumably training in all these things |
| (PS45H) |
[621] oh I trained in all of these things yes |
| (PS45G) |
[622] where did you do your training here or down [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[623] Catterick usually |
| (PS45G) |
[624] Oh really, yes |
| (PS45H) |
[625] with the R A F regiment yes um I mean that's where we do the military side of things in fact I'm just organising that now for the flight for February but we have the probably the most famous member of the flight for it was founded in nineteen forty was H E Bates |
| (PS45G) |
[626] Oh really |
| (PS45H) |
[627] erm |
| (PS45G) |
[628] now I was reading about him a few days ago |
| (PS45H) |
[629] that's right because they've just released papers after thirty years of work that he was doing for the M O D he was actually doing it in his role as a member of the P R flight, Beaver Brooke sold the government this idea |
| (PS45G) |
[630] just so can we get back to research about beginners because I'm worried about how much there is on the tape and you're about to drive to Pitlochrie erm ... basically you have to define a beginner to see what they want to do |
| (PS45H) |
[631] sure that's right but I mean I think the beginners are the people coming in new to the bis |
| (PS45G) |
[632] when you say new to the business do you mean new in terms of employment as opposed to say graduates from Queen Margaret or Napier or anywhere else? |
| (PS45H) |
[633] I would say in employment yes, or people that want to get employment example would be yeah at [...] M D secretary suddenly shot into the job of producing the company newspaper now I mean somebody like very quickly has to get to grips with this obviously cannot give up six months to go and do it so you do it on a half day release basis. |
| (PS45G) |
[634] but she's had quite a lot of training in other things actually and with the man marketing department that they've got there they might not need that the [...] thing coming up I've just had what's interesting about that and what I don't like about it is not to [...] because I have a lot of respect for her. [635] But they don't tell you who is actually doing the delivering so you're buying blind |
| (PS45H) |
[636] There is nothing here either that I see that is immediately um relating to the B A I E type of business |
| (PS45G) |
[637] effective writing skills, presentation skills and working with the media I've got here Thursday twenty second nineteen ninety four |
| (PS45H) |
[638] Now I've got here ah learning outcomes erm some topics preparation and agenda type management issues [...] the meaning control skills that doesn't |
| (PS45G) |
[639] well time management could be for a lot of people |
| (PS45H) |
[640] yeah |
| (PS45G) |
[641] that was something people had asked for working for the media here |
| (PS45H) |
[642] but it wouldn't [...] er now you've got a different programme to me, I've got Learning Outcomes again is that the same one? |
| (PS45G) |
[643] No this |
| (PS45H) |
[644] I've got the [...] I've got |
| (PS45G) |
[645] this is ... |
| (PS45H) |
[646] right I've probably [...] that one [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[647] no that's just the [...] |
| (PS45H) |
[648] I really just wanted to see er just wanted to see the sort of range of things they did now this is more like it you see Effective Writing, Report Writing, Technical Report Writing, Business Sales Corres , Editing House Journals ... Writing for Publication, Desk Top Publishing, things like working with the media these are more the sort of things that I would see people [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[649] Oh that's for in-house training for actual customers in their own organisations isn't it? |
| (PS45H) |
[650] sure but again I mean if there was a market for this I am sure that to take that and splinter it off into a unit it costs money to get people that want to come into this business [...] |
| (PS45G) |
[651] but the interesting is I was talking to one of the training people at one of the big finance houses recently about whether or not one could piggy back on some of their courses or whether in fact some of the in-house stuff they do they would like to deliver to external B A I E people |
| (PS45H) |
[652] right |
| (PS45G) |
[653] so that's something else to look at, but it takes time |
| (PS45H) |
[654] but I've got this C I T B N V Q stuff really to sort of to see what went into an N V Q's package |
| (PS45G) |
[655] well if you'd like to come to Dunderth Street one day you can see twelve inches of it |
| (PS45H) |
[656] I see ... erm it also misheard me here because I'm involved in designing a television series as well on the construction industry also gives me some interesting data about the industry ... was it ten per cent of the nation's workforce works for the construction industry which in an average year will turn over thirty five billion pounds |
| (PS45G) |
[657] well the industry [...] C I T B industry training board premises are just near one of my sister's houses erm in Norfolk isn't it in Norfolk somewhere? yes |
| (PS45H) |
[658] Kings Lynn Kings Lynn |
| (PS45G) |
[659] well you drive through it on the main road and it goes both sides of the road |
| (PS45H) |
[660] I've never been to Kings Lynn |
| (PS45G) |
[661] Can I ask you em ... age |
| (PS45H) |
[662] [...] R A F [...] me |
| (PS45G) |
[663] please to complete the form thank you |
| (PS45H) |
[664] fifty two |
| (PS45G) |
[665] thank you sex, we think you're male, accent, do you have an accent? |
| (PS45H) |
[666] Yes, Scottish |
| (PS45G) |
[667] erm ... do you happen to know |
| (PS45H) |
[668] about thirty two ... and female |
| (PS45G) |
[669] [sigh] ... um ... right I think I need you to sign it actually so if you could just sign here |