BNC Text KGR

Adult education seminar: Justice for all. Sample containing about 12069 words speech recorded in educational context

3 speakers recorded by respondent number C768

PS4DV	X	m	(Frank, age unknown, tutor) unspecified
KGRPSUNK (respondent W0000)	X	u	(Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
KGRPSUGP (respondent W000M)	X	u	(Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

Tape 116801 recorded on 1994-02-03. LocationLeicestershire: Leicester ( classroom ) Activity: seminar

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[1] This particular study for so he could listen to it. [2] Erm, he had said, that if nothing else he discovered how lively the children were at my school. [3] I I I recorded it in a closed classroom during the lunch-time playtime
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[4] and you can still hear the children's voices wafting through the double glazing. [5] So, anyway, I hope it wasn't too distracting for him, and that he was able to pick out, erm, the information that he wanted. [6] So. [7] Thank you very much for leading us tonight, and all here will be interested to hear what you have to say.
Frank (PS4DV)	[8] Thank you. [9] Will I hope I'm not going to lead you astray.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[10] No.
Frank (PS4DV)	[11] Er, one of the things that I I I do wish hand-book writers would er, do, is to erm, write whenever practical, to seek out the strength of the group, at the beginning, so, that for example, how mu if there are those of us who've been magistrates or been before the court, or involved in legal processes. [12] It's to know that in advance because I think they then have a practical contribution to make. [13] Anyway, before I say any more about that. [14] I looked up the subject, Justice, in the new dictionary, and it said, To Treat Justly, or to Treat Fairly, and then it went on to talk about legal justice. [15] But the subject of justice itself, harked on mainly the legal aspect which these notes deal with, is I think one of the most penetrating subjects have affect all our lives. [16] So this little tape, this little recording, er, highlights in justice, which probably is even a more fascinating subject as justice. [17] Well the two in a way are inseparable. [18] Right, away we go. [19] All being well, that's if er,th that's if er, the electricity's on. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[20] ... beautifully written.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[21] You heard it alright down that end. [clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[22] Yes [laugh] be okay.
Frank (PS4DV)	[23] Is that in the way,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[24] Mind you don't fa no. [25] Mind you don't fall over.
Frank (PS4DV)	[26] Can I push it under the chair somewhere.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[27] I should, yes. [28] [...] because you might
Frank (PS4DV)	[29] That out of the way.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[30] Might fall over the wire.
Frank (PS4DV)	[31] It occurred to me that so many of the people who influence our lives are people who have been unjustly treated. [32] I I hope this is not a mischievous comment, but I I think it's very questionable, whether the Christian faith would be known as it is today, down two thousand years, had it not been for an innocent man, Jesus, being unjustly punished and crucified, and so many of the great reformers in the history of man, men and women have died or suffered grave imprisonment because of injustice, and in a paradoxical way, injustice in a way,yo you almost seem as if we need injustice to drive us on, to get things done in a, in a better way. [33] So that I think, had the subject been injustice, it would have just been just as er, exciting as ... justice, fact or fiction. [34] I hope therefore, we will keep in our minds the meaning, that justice means to treat justly, or to treat fairly, and remember that it's a double ed sided coin. [35] The notes that have been prepared for us go over er, rather briefly the legal systems in our land, and er, even references made to France, which has a slightly different legal system, which may be a bit better than ours ... and so that, in the notes, we not only look at the High Court, the High Court, the Criminal Court, the County Court er er, and realise what an important part of legal proceedings er, these courts fair, as well of course, as the largest courts of all, [cough] , the Magistrate's Court. [36] Now, when asked if I would introduce this subject, she said, I think I'd better mention this for the sake of the truth,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[37] of of of everything, er, she said, as you raised, you been appeared in the paper, obviously, in dealing with something, it seemed to you, unjust, our folks thought you ought to introduce this subject. [38] So I thought I'd better clear that little matter up, for starters, because you would be very interested. [39] For twelve months, I've been trying to er, when I realised that that was put on my cleaning bill, it seemed to be so unfair that the little ol and the lady who, up till now has has cleaned for me, because the home help service, no longer just does cleaning. [40] And I, er and I pretended to be incapable and I, and said I would like someone to go and help me do shopping, home health service would have, come along.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[41] Yeah.
Frank (PS4DV)	[42] because I was straightforward and said, all I want is someone to come and see my place is kept clean, and they said, we can't do that anymore,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[43] They're not trying.
Frank (PS4DV)	[44] and we will give you a er, two addresses, and so they gave me two addresses and and to reach people at [...] I've done the job quite well. [45] [...] broken down since the paper article, hadn't had a sole come since that newspaper article.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[46] [...] disappeared.
Frank (PS4DV)	[47] And now, and now. [48] Well, I reckon so, so I I've arranged for someone else to do it now.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[49] Er, but the point I wanted to make was that, after trying for twelve months, first of all, er, I wrote to my local M P. [50] I went through the proper process ... and the local MP er, er MP for Labour, didn't know much about it, and he referred it to the Postmaster General, I think it is, who took three months to answer.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[51] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[52] When eventually, he was blaming the European Union, not European Community now, boys and girls, that's right, isn't it, it's European Union now, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[53] Yeah, listen I I [...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[54] Yeah, another European Community. [55] Anyway, he said that they had imposed this, and the Government couldn't do anything about it. [56] It was the directive, the word he used. [57] On checking further with the European Union, I don't take anything for granted, not even what MPs say, er, it turned out that it wasn't a directive and that the Government had freedom of choice, whether it imposes it or not. [58] So then, of course I went to the Euro M P. [59] That's how I found out about it. [60] Then last November, I went to see her, she was out, and I see her Press Officer. [61] I gave her all the papers, and erm, she said well, and that meanwhile had, spoken to me on the phone, and said she would do what she could. [62] [clears throat] that the local MP and the, and the, couldn't do anything more about it. [63] And, er, the upshot of all that was, I got a phone call, what, three weeks ago, from one of the papers saying, we'd like to come and take your picture Mr cos we're doing this article about [...] on on er, on care services, so I said, okay, so he came and took a picture. [64] [clears throat] That's all I knew about it. [65] You've all seen, or most of you have seen the article, I was never interviewed by the press, whatsoever.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[66] Oh, typical.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[67] Yeah, typical.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[68] Yeah, yeah.
Frank (PS4DV)	[69] [cough] which, and I was quoted as well, they may, I mean, whether the Press Officer, er Press Officer, er er, quoted me, and he altered my conversation with her, I don't know. [70] But the important thing was, the impression that everyone [cough] er had, who read the paper, was that I had been interviewed by the press.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[71] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[72] In fact, it was only naming one lady on the paper.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[73] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[74] I just mention that, because that, I thought you ought to know the truth of that, you know, and things aren't what they appear in the paper.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[75] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[76] Can't believe anything, can you.
Frank (PS4DV)	[77] No harms done, really, although I wouldn't have said, what was attributed to me, I wasn't moaning about the money. [78] I never moan about hardship. [79] I was arguing about the principle, that er, I mean, the lady who came to clean for me, was a nursing auxiliary, and if I'd had rheumatism, she would have bathed me, and done sort of thing as well. [80] So that little old ladies who are, decide, or old gentlemen for that matter, want to try and live in the community, and then, they stick that on their bill. [81] It's the only, and it's only because, and this is, I mean, having to understand why Government, surely the majority of supporters of the present Government wouldn't approve of this. [82] The only exception in my case, is that I've used a firm that does more than thirty-five thousand pounds worth of work a year.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[83] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[84] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[85] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[86] And that, the answers I got from Government was, use a voluntary body, they don't have to pay that. [87] Er, use the County Council, I said, they weren't prepared to do it. [88] But they would do cleaning just cleaning, the County Council will, though it hasn't got the people to do it. [89] But of course, they've priced, they've done this by charging eight pounds an hour.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[90] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[91] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[92] Oh.
Frank (PS4DV)	[93] For someone to come and clean, and then you would have to pay V A T on it. [94] You see, cos they don't say that, and anyone else who doesn't, who does less than thirty five thousand pounds worth of, if Mrs down the street said, I couldn't do forty pound, then they don't have to pay that. [95] But that was not the issue. [96] And t and th then, since the paper talk, that's right, it's nothing to do with it, but it may have a bit to do with justice, we'll get round to it in a bit. [97] T since the the paper article, I wrote direct to the Chancellor, as he's living down the street, personal letter to him. [98] He didn't answer it personally, eventually about three weeks afterwards I got the letter from Customs and Excise, who deal with this, saying, in a rather remarkable last paragraph, We have to charge V A T right across the board. [99] In other words, if any of you were wealthy enough to employ a lady or a gentleman t do the cleaning.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[100] To do the cleaning
Frank (PS4DV)	[101] Then, they have to charge V A T. [102] But I always thought cleanliness was next to Godliness,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[103] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[104] I mean, I didn't think he had to have V A T on, I mean, if it's a millionaire, you know, and they employ la , they employ people to clean. [105] I was surprised that that is put on cleaning. [106] But because it's got to be right across the board, and they won't make exception, of people like myself and others who are living in the community that need home help.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[107] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[108] So that's the whole story, I thought you ought to know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[109] Yeah. [110] This has been happening to me, just the same.
Frank (PS4DV)	[111] Pardon.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[112] It's happened to me just the same.
Frank (PS4DV)	[113] Yes, yes, so er.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[114] What paper was you in,
Frank (PS4DV)	[115] Oh, I don't know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[116] Mercury
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[117] Mercury or Post, look,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[118] I saw it in the Herald and Post.
Frank (PS4DV)	[119] Mercury was, yes I [...] it's one in the Mercury and the other one was the one with the picture.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[120] Yeah, Herald and Post, cos I saw it.
Frank (PS4DV)	[121] Now then, back to subject. [122] Sorry about that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[123] Are they any here, who have been magistrates? [124] Yell if you have, cos I can't see your hand [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[125] Anybody.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[126] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[127] No.
Frank (PS4DV)	[128] How many of you have been to County Court? [129] ... No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[130] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[131] No.
Frank (PS4DV)	[132] What an innocent lot.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[133] We are good.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[134] We are.
Frank (PS4DV)	[135] How many of you' ve been before a Judge?
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[136] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[137] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[138] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[139] Been to courts on purpose is, the cases. [140] At one time I used to quite often go to the Castle.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[141] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[142] And they were very interesting, actually. [143] I found it very interesting.
Frank (PS4DV)	[144] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[145] But never, er [clears throat] from the wrong side of the bench, you know ... Never as a criminal.
Frank (PS4DV)	[146] Well, now,th this is where comes into his own, you see.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[147] Yeah. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[148] You would be.
Frank (PS4DV)	[149] once was tried in a way but a Judge, er, tumbled to it, and it was at Leicester Castle. [150] Had things gone wrong with me, I may ultimately have been sent to prison. [151] I was g , I was going to get to read the newspaper report in the Mercury and the Mail, and when I appeared at Leicester Castle before a Judge, but er, I think, and I was going to give you a clue. [152] But perhaps we'll forget about that now. [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[153] I can hold my peace. [laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[154] It was, it was fifty-four ago, there's your clue. [155] Anyway, so I appeared before a Judge, the only time when I've really been, he was judging me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[156] Yeah.
Frank (PS4DV)	[157] [cough] another time I, more recently I appeared before a Judge at Norwich, as a wi , as a witness for people who have been unjustly treated. [158] I only appear in court when other people have been unjustly treated.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[159] Er, I've been before, when it was the Assizes, at Newark. [160] Then I didn't anticipate, I was yanked out of the back of the court, I'd gone there to see some proceedings with people I was involved with and all of a sudden the barrister for the defendant said, is a Mr in court? [161] So I got yanked out,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[162] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[163] to go into the witness box, and that was interesting really, because that was a recorder then, now it's no longer, that's finished with now, isn't it. [164] We don't have the Assizes. [165] Th the Crown Court's taken the place of the Assizes, I think, and then
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[166] It was a shame, because it was very interesting.
Frank (PS4DV)	[167] Yes, you have a Judge now at the, of the Crown Court, I think. [168] Any anyway, I appeared there, this was interesting because, being a friend, I didn't ... swear on the Bible, it's something that's not brought up in these notes, you don't think it's quite an important thing, really, so the Clerk of the Court, [...] with his bible, would you, you know, repeat this. [169] So I said, I'm sorry, no I'm ... [...] is it, the law officer, spur of the moment, I mean, I didn't know I was gonna finish up there. [170] I said, I'm sorry I'm a quaker, I I [...] will not, we don't believe in double standards.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[171] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[172] And erm, the the Clerk was in a flat spin, because he hadn't got a card, which said, I affirm that, what I say is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the recorder himself was was [...] about
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[173] who got a paper for me to read out, then. [174] So that was the time I've been before a recorder. [175] Er, the Magistrate's Court I've been to twice. [176] The last time in Norwich about six years ago, and then there were five Magistrates out, and the sittings went on, for between two and three days. [177] The Norwich City Council wanted to get a licence to be able to sell intoxicants at a new pop centre they were going to open, mainly for young people, and was a member of the Labour Party, incidentally, and and a County Councillor, one of the City Wards, had the cheek to go and oppose the whole of Norwich City Council
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[178] I was nearly chucked out for that, I left before they could chuck me out, actually.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[179] Er, and I got up and I protested about it, on the grounds that if they couldn't run a great big pop hall for, and I wholly agreed with the idea, of of them providing the facility. [180] Could have said, if if if the finances of that, depends on selling alcohol, then, I think it's time Norwich City Council made a stand, and say we're only going to sell non-alcoholic drinks.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[181] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[182] [...] firm there, incidentally, er, that's surprised me, going to a mar court, a a a court like that, purely when it was a, a application for a er drink licence, and still have to er, er [...] . [183] Erm, the other time was, and this isn't a point, either, made in the notes, erm, when I was at, Wells Next The Sea. [184] I had been the first Chairman of Wells-Next-The-Sea, Town Council, but two or three years afterwards, we decided to turn, er, the old cinema, they wanted to turn the old cinema into a Dance Hall. [185] I was an ordinary member of the Council for that, I had done me two years Chairmanship, and here again, I was naughty really, considered naughty. [186] But next to the Dance Hall if we'd given them the licence to ha turn the cinema into a Dance Hall, there was this little old boy who lived just the other side of the road, in an old cottage, and he was over eighty. [187] I knew he, I didn't know him, I didn't know him, but I do go and see him when I saw this case was covered up, and it seems to be utterly unreasonable that this poor old chap was going to have doors slamming and banging, and then people coming out the Dance about midnight, and his whole life being disrupted, so I I turned [...] on there, unknown to my own Council, oh, they were cross with me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[188] And I went to the Magistrates and acted and and gave witness on behalf of this old gentleman. [189] The Town Council were so stupid there,we they're, the Magistrate threw it out, said, no, you can't have a licence, because it'd be too big a public nuisance, they decided to appeal. [190] So then appears at Norwich Crown Court, now the case before us, was a criminal case, so that the Crown Court can deal with civic cases as well as criminal cases, cos our cas , the next one was ours. [191] And, I forget the name, it's, the chappie was still Judge there, cos I saw his name recently. [192] But when I went up to er, was called as a witness ... I, this was I amazed me, the Jury Judge said I wish to affirm, he wanted to know why. [193] Well, I reckon that's a bit of a cheek, really, if you prefer to affirm and swear on the bible, I don't see why they should challenge why you want to do one or the other.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[194] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[195] So I said I'm a quaker. [196] Oh, that's alright then, Mr
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[197] So I think, we erm, anyway, the Wells Council lost it's case and was really in the bad books over that. [198] But, er, so I've appeared in these places, purely because I'm, injustice, you know, stirs me up. [199] And it's no good moaning, so has to go and do something about it,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[200] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[201] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[202] and get into trouble. [203] Er, but I hope, for the, for the, for the right cause. [204] So that's why I've been rather, er, you know, had quite a bit of ex experience in the court. [205] Which is another point, really, that people I find ... even if they appeal for witnesses about something that's gone wrong, people are very hesitant, the majority of people in the community are frightened of being witnesses,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[206] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[207] and unless we are prepared to, you know, to do this, er, we can't complain if there is injustice, it seems to me. [208] Now, today, I'm going to break away from the notes a little bit, cos I think, there's so many things you could bring, we could bring in, and I think some of the points made in the notes will naturally come out in our discussion. [209] Er, today and every day, almost, a question of the police, at the moment, there is this business going on, er, in in London, at Stoke Newington, over the fact that, the charges against the police for corruption, being involved with all sorts of things that they shouldn't, er, and we are living through a time, where the police is ... having to fight a battle for it's own respect. [210] The police were originally formed from the community to represent the community, er, and to protect the community. [211] That that's how it it started, that's why they weren't part of the force, is, police were part of a co community, and therefore to have respect for the police, seems to me quite vital if we are to have a real sense of of of justice and and fairness. [212] I wonder what your views are, or wh what can be done, or whether anything can be done, er, to rebuild the respect for the police.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[213] Well, that would begin, I think er, in the home. [214] Teaching young children the right from wrong, and why the police are there and, accepting them as friends, like we did when I lived in the village. [215] The policeman knew everybody, and he was a very nice man, very firm, and he would deal with minor, youth troubles, you know, when we got the spate of trouble every now and then.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[216] Give you clip on ear.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[217] He knew where they were and he used to jolly well,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[218] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[219] er, give them a good clout, and also,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[220] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[221] see the fathers and mothers and tell them you see, we we've had enough of this lot, were not having any more. [222] We never had any serious trouble at all.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[223] cos it was nipped in the bud. [224] The local policeman took it in hand, and nobody grumbled, if he gave them a good clout.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[225] No, well how many of us know our local policeman?
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[226] We did, he used to come into our [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[227] Yes, but how many of us now, know our lo local policeman.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[228] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[229] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[230] Yes, how many of us now, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[231] [...] most days.
Frank (PS4DV)	[232] Have you got the local police?
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[233] We don't know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[234] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[235] I've never seen one.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[236] We don't know. [237] Nobody ever tells us.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[238] No, I sometimes see them go right down our street in twos.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[239] There is one, isn't there.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[240] Nearly always looking at the cars.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[241] There's a police car comes up here at twelve o'clock every night. [242] It tu , it comes up very quietly. [243] It turns at the top and goes straight.
Frank (PS4DV)	[244] Well, that's much use from the point of view of getting to know him, is it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[245] No. [246] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[247] Erm, there's a local policeman, er, in the area around our church, he's come to speak [...] finish in a little while. [248] [laugh] but er, [...] talk about his work.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[249] But it's, I think it's the exception.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[250] Erm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[251] [clears throat] You never see a policeman at all.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[252] If you were, if you ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[253] And they all say what a very nice man he is, too.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[254] You know, I wonder what would happen, if you went along to the Norfolk Street Police Station and said, will you please give us the name of our local policeman. [255] I wonder if they would tell you of give you any ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[256] I'm sure they would, yes, I'm sure.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[257] You think they would.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[258] I mean, we we have, er,com what they they call the Community Constable.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[259] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[260] Mm
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[261] Erm, and, he's name's Keith something,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[262] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[263] er, and if ever an incident happens in our part of Leicester, and there's a police statement about it, it's usually quoting him. [264] You know, he's, he's been involved dealing with the case and he's told the press something about what's going on.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[265] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[266] Wh
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[267] Er, I mean, we have met him, once or twice, but that's as much as I can say, and it's been er su such a span of time, that I don't even know now, whether I would recognise him walking along the street. [268] Even though I have met him a couple of times.
Frank (PS4DV)	[269] What would happen if we were to invite a policeman to come and address this group.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[270] I think he'd come.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[271] I think he'd be pleased to do it.
Frank (PS4DV)	[272] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[273] Yes, they would.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[274] Well, that's a practical thing they can do, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[275] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[276] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[277] Well we did [...] a few years ago.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[278] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[279] Didn't he.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[280] Did you, mm, mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[281] Er, they ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[282] They, they cut down at Norfolk Street. [283] You know, I mean, it's not manned nearly as often as it used to be.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[284] No, they've cut us down, and different hours.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[285] No, there's the one. [286] Where we used to live, but, I mean,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[287] [...] on the police, there, and I mean, that's the problem. [288] They've cut down,
Frank (PS4DV)	[289] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[290] Instead of having more, we've got less.
Frank (PS4DV)	[291] Yeah, that's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[292] I think we've been talking about two different interpretations of the word, respect. [293] In much the same way as people talk about being God fearing. [294] When when you talk about fearing God, you're not really talking about being frightened of him, you're talking about paying attention and doing what he wants you to do. [295] And in the same way, interpretation of the word respect, was that you paid attention to the local bobby
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[296] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[297] because you knew he meant business, and he would achieve his end
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[298] And [...] living in the area with him.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[299] Yes, but there's
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[300] [...] us.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[301] there's another meaning to the word respect, which is what is shown up by the Stoke Newington incident, and other similar incidents, in that, you can only respect somebody if they actually live up to the standards that they actually hold out to the rest of you. [302] And I mean it, there is nothing worse for someone who is supposed to be upholding the law, to be found not [...] themselves.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[303] Letting it down.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[304] I agree with that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[305] And I mean, that, I think that's the sort of respect which is draining away very quickly,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[306] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[307] You know, with every incident that gets publicised, it weakens their position even more.
Frank (PS4DV)	[308] Yes, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it, I mean, we we should teach our young people to respect the police, at at the same time, the police should be ready to earn their respect.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[309] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[310] Quite.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[311] I think most of them are, but it's ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[312] It's up, it's up to them to clean their act up.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[313] It's the minority that
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[314] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[315] get in papers, and we read all about, I mean it,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[316] It's the same in every situation, isn't it, that the few
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[317] It is. [318] It is.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[319] can spoil it for the many.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[320] Oh, yes. [...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[321] I think we might remind ourselves that justice begins in Court, not on the street.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[322] No, I think if [...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[323] We are not talking about the police, we are talking about justice for all. [324] If the police start trying to administer justice, in the way of trying, by planting drugs on innocent people, for example.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[325] oh yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[326] while they, well, we can say that the police are being unjust, but the police have nothing to do with justice. [327] The police are only concerned with catching the offender and delivering him or her to the law so that justice can be done.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[328] That's not strictly true, because in our country, the police are also involved in gathering evidence which is largely put to the service of the prosecution, rather than the defence. [329] So they an invidious position in this country, that they are not only catching the suspect, but they're also siding against the suspect even before he's gone on trial.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[330] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[331] This, I think, was the point that was trying to point out, about the Scottish system and the French system, that they have this independent investigating magistrates structure, so that erm, the police don't so much become involved in one side of the case. [332] But whatever the police discover, erm, is made available to both sides more readily.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[333] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[334] And hopefully, justice is is done.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[335] And if we're gonna start talking about paying the police by results, that's going to encourage them, isn't it, to er, to to press for for for conviction.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[336] Well, this is, this is point, isn't it,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[337] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[338] that they're really, they're to arrest first and foremost, they're, they're to arrest the suspect, [cough] and bring that person before the er, judging magistrate, or the judge, whatever the case may be, and the, and has made, made out [...] that it is a disadvantage therefore, if they are also expected to bring evidence, as, for the prosecution.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[339] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[340] Mm. [341] cos you get the situation now, where they, choose not ... to charge ... a person, because it isn't worth it. [342] Because they know that by the time he gets to court, he'll be thrown out, and all the time will be wasted,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[343] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[344] you know. [345] So ... [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[346] Is it the magistrate who issues the search warrant, er, and the police go in and search the house for drugs or anything.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[347] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[348] Is it the magistrate or ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[349] It used to be.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[350] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[351] I'm not sure wh g who who grants the warrant, do you.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[352] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[353] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[354] Used to be the magistrate, at one time, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[355] But I mean, people see the police go in, breaking somebody's door and going in. [356] Naturally they probably think the police are up to no good. [357] They probably don't realise wh , they've got er, er, a warrant from the magistrate to go and do that,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[358] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[359] or evict someone. [360] The police have to do that.
Frank (PS4DV)	[361] Can I jump from this, they're all interconnected, over to question of magistrates, one of the questions in the notes, really, it points out that there are about, not quite, but er, about two third of magistrates are men, and about a third women, erm, is there, is that because of history, and shall, because they're are more women than men, I mean logically, because there are more women than men in the community, there should be more women magistrates than men, shouldn't there, on the on the basis of presentation, I take it that, I don't know the figures, but I take it that er, more and more women now are er, being, accepting, [...] the called, of course, to be magistrate, you didn't have any choice once, do you in a way.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[362] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[363] You can't volunteer, you have to be, you have to be chosen.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[364] [...] to be chosen, women.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[365] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[366] Quite a lot of women, on the prosecution side.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[367] Well look,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[368] [...] representatives, I've known three magistrates in my life. [369] One was a a a business man, the other was er, trade union official, and the other was a housewife, which seemed to me to be badly representative
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[370] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[371] of, if you take that as a as a reasonable example.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[372] The the [...] variety doesn't make the point, that it is the Chancellor er, who er, the Lord Chancellor, I should say, who who appoints magistrates, but it isn't, that make the point, which I think, is very important, is how do the names get to the Lord Chancellor's office.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[373] Yes, I was, I was going to ask that, try and explain that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[374] Well, it's bound to be some body, but, I mean, what we [...] movement, could erm,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[375] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[376] partition the the Lord Chancellor that we think so and so
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[377] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[378] would be a jolly good magistrate.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[379] But would, would [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[380] You find often, it's the erm, political party, I mean, I know two and who were both erm, names put forward by the Labour Party
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[381] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[382] in Rochford and in Huddersfield, you know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[383] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[384] That's a point I was going to make, but as far as I can tell in en masse, the main, the main nominated bodies have been of political parties.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[385] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[386] They often have a very small percentage of the population anyway, and er I'm glad we've brought this matter up, because I think that is something which ... needs further investigation, that the the ordinary public and the many little,or the millions of voluntary organisations ought to be encouraged to have a more output in forwarding names.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[387] Yes, quite, I agree.
Frank (PS4DV)	[388] We ought to be forwarding names.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[389] [...] if there was anybody young enough, for [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[390] I agree.
Frank (PS4DV)	[391] [clears throat] I don't know what record the Adult Schools have of nominating [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[392] I don't, I doubt whether we've ever nominated anybody,
Frank (PS4DV)	[393] On Leicestershire.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[394] Nationally.
Frank (PS4DV)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[395] I would think so. [396] I would be very surprised if [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[397] It it smacks surely, of of whether these many old boy networks, that we're famous for in this country,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[398] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[399] I mean, if you don't tell anybody that their, that they can submit names, they're not going to submit names, because they don't think they're eligible to do so,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[400] No, I don't ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[401] and so the whole thing perpetuates itself.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[402] No, I think a lot of the nominations are made by the existing bench ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[403] So in that sense, it's that we're incestuous.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[404] Yeah, yes, it's, it's the old boy network, again, in in a way.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[405] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[406] Er, it's ... I I maybe wrong about that, I mean.
Frank (PS4DV)	[407] Can we ca will the Chancellor accept, er, er, er ap an nomination from this group, for instance.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[408] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[409] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[410] Oh, yes.
Frank (PS4DV)	[411] Or, or a street,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[412] Oh, yes.
Frank (PS4DV)	[413] why shouldn't a street do it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[414] Would he? [415] Oh.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[416] Oh, yes.
Frank (PS4DV)	[417] But.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[418] I didn't realise that, no.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[419] I mean, I don't, we don't know what the process is, of get you know, the step by step until it gets to the Cha Lord Chancellor, do we.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[420] No, [...]
Frank (PS4DV)	[421] It's obviously civil servants deal deal with it. [422] What's your view about. [423] Do you think there should be as many women as men as magistrates?
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[424] No, I don't think so. [425] I mean, put
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[426] I think it's
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[427] Depends on personality and character.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[428] Yeah,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[429] It's quite im It's quite important in the same way, that it's quite important that we have so few women M Ps. [430] I mean, I think it, I think it says quite a lot about our society. [431] I'm not suggesting that erm, women magistrates would necessarily be any more just than men magistrates. [432] But on the other hand, if they are supposed to be representatives of our society, then there's obviously something wrong, when there are so few women, compared with so few men. [433] Just as it's wrong that there should be so few women M Ps.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[434] But can
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[435] Because we are fifty per cent, if not more so, of the population.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[436] At the same time, if we accept, accept the principle of the equality of the sexes, the proportions no longer matter. [437] You can't have it both ways.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[438] If you're thinking of something like, administering justice,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[439] I'm thinking general.
Frank (PS4DV)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[440] No, I, if you let me finish what I'm saying.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[441] There is, everybody has to acknowledge that there is a difference in the interpretation of what constitutes justice ... and one only has to see er, the sorts of attitude that are put across by certain judges, as to, erm, rape cases, and abuse cases, and how they, the press would have us believe, pat people over the head and tell them to go away and not do it again. [442] I mean, I think, there is something there that needs pursuing, I'm not accusing all judges of being, inherently, you know, nutty, or, whatever, but, the number of cases that have come to light in the last few years, whether it's because the press have just decided to home in on them,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[443] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[444] or whether there is really a situation there, which probably has been going on since time in memorial, that we've only just started to hear about it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[445] Mm. [446] Well, you you're, you er, [...] have us believe, er ra raises a very important issue, I think. [447] I mean, what we know about what goes off in the courts,i is is entirely dependent on which particular reporter happens to be reporting.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[448] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[449] Er, I mean, if if you take an an average case, which may last three or four days, and there's a lot of evidence of one sort or another, that's heard and weighed, and considered, and it it boiled down to one paragraph in the newspaper, and who, who chooses to its, to report wh , to report which, the reporter.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[450] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[451] You know, if if he's got a particular bias, then he'll, he'll weight his report in the favour of that bias. [452] Irrespective of wh what's gone on over the whole period of the trial. [453] So it's very deli dangerous, I think, to take too much notice of what appears in the press.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[454] It's it's the only thing you have ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[455] It's the only thing you have, but if you're
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[456] [...] television [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[457] If you were in court, and under trial, you might come to an entirely different conclusion.
Frank (PS4DV)	[458] And in any case, it's most likely that it was a completely misleading headline in the press.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[459] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[460] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[461] Yes.
Frank (PS4DV)	[462] Can I
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[463] I would still find it very hard to believe that any evidence of mitigation would justify a non-custodial sentence, to someone who has broken twenty-three bones in their child's body.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[464] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[465] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[466] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[467] A babe in arms. [468] What sort of mitigation could justify that?
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[469] Nothing.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[470] Well, that's amazing, and that's an, that's an extreme case, I think, I don't ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[471] There is no mitigation for things like that. [472] They should be, I think they should be finished. [473] We ought not to have to keep them until they're about seventy, in nearly the lap of luxury. [474] Just top 'em, get rid of 'em.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[475] What happens to Christian mercy then.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[476] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[477] What happens to Christian mercy then, and hope that rehabilitation
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[478] [...] to do it. [479] See them off. [480] If I was, er, at the time of Elizabeth, she'd had had their head off. [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[481] I I wouldn't have them hanging out, and we've got to keep them. [482] I don't believe in 'em. [483] I believe in seeing them off. [484] Getting rid of 'em.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[485] I mean, they are scum, after all, people that do these dreadful things.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[486] Well, apparently, then,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[487] They're not fit to be alive,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[488] apparently so, but as, as er, says,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[489] but as far as I'm concerned, they not.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[490] they they could have their reasons. [491] We might have caused it to happen to them. [492] When I say, we, I mean, you know
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[493] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[494] what they've experienced previously in society.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[495] In society.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[496] Society, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[497] Society.
Frank (PS4DV)	[498] Can I, can I connect this with the notes, because it does raise the point about er, the judges, whether they should have retired er earlier, and it also involves another matter, I think. [499] They have come in for quite a bit of stick, particularly when they've been dealing with rape cases. [500] Er, of course, it is, the er, it is a self perpetu situation where, the law lords are are the highest er, the highest level of justice in the land, aren't they, the law lords,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[501] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[502] and the one very much questions er, really their suitability for taking some decisions, and I would like to know your views about, where you've got rape cases, wouldn't it make sense if there was a a male judge and a female judge taking the case. [503] Now I've not seen this suggested, but it seems to me a fair way of doing it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[504] It should be, I think it should be so. [505] It should be more than one person deciding it. [506] I think.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[507] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[508] Are we thinking of the court of appeal ... or are we thinking of a trial by jury. [509] Now there's a difference here,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[510] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[511] soon as you start talking about more than one judge, you you getting into the appeal court area, aren't you.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[512] I I was thinking of it now, as as normally as a normal crown court case,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[513] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[514] and having two, where normally reside over a judge, I mean, there aren't many women judges yet, but there are qui er increasing numbers,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[515] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[516] and I think in rape, it does seem to me, quite absurd that an old gentleman of seventy-five should be judging it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[517] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[518] Now erm,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[519] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[520] knowing, knowing the tremendous changes in our society. [521] He can't really be in touch with the twenty years olds.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[522] Do we, do we think that generally speaking, our judges ... are in touch with public opinion, generally.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[523] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[524] Or is it, is it that they've become a sort of exclusive club, arising al almost always through the ranks of the of the law, and gradually, gradually got withdrawn from the way that ordinary people think and feel.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[525] I I I I think that there is a peculiar problem here, and, and that is, that whilst I will fully agree with that judges should be kept or keep in touch with the usages and habits of modern society and how it's changing. [526] At the same time, it is essentially, if justice is to be done, and this is what we're talking about, that a judge should also be detached and how you can balance detachment with knowledge.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[527] Mm. [528] It's not easy.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[529] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[530] It's not easy, is it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[531] No, it's not easy, by any means.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[532] But the de the [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[533] has arisen where a judge has passed a personal view about a woman, hasn't he. [534] This is what's caused the trouble.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[535] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[536] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[537] He's not been given a legal decision, he's passed an opinion, saying oh, this, this woman, was, you know, encouraging the man, and things like that, and that's what gets people's backs up, I think.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[538] One wonders, how much
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[539] erm, and to use a word that would be used in other areas, retraining goes on, amongst the judiciary or do they just get to this pinnacle, and then hold it against all comers, until they choose to retire, I mean, in any other, er, job where you have a peculiar expertise, like that, you would be expected to update yourself, to keep up with the trends, you would be sent away to conferences, and retraining courses.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[540] I think that does happen.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[541] I mean, I I I I wonder how much does go on, of that nature.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[542] Well, something goes on, I I'm I do know,th there was a reference to it recently.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[543] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[544] About a judges, I think it's a one-day, just a one-day seminar, or something like that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[545] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[546] Where they have retraining, but it didn't amount to very much. [547] I didn't think.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[548] But but at the same time,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[549] [...] disappointed, for one thing because he is experienced,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[550] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[551] he's worked he's way up through various branches of the law, he he's practically certain to being a Q C and then a recorder, you know
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[552] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[553] worked up the ladder, but, what's required in a judge, I would say,put putting for the moment, what we've just been discussing on the side, that is, any question of bias, or sex bias, [...] a judge is there in court, to perform an intellectual [...] . [554] He is there to listen to the evidence, to present the evidence to the jury, the jury then, say, whether the ... man in the dock or woman in the dock or whatever's in the dock, is guilty or not guilty. [555] The judge then, bearing in mind, all that he knows, and all that he's been told about the guilty person, proceeds to pass sentence. [556] Now I say, that that is an intellectual exercise, as soon as it becomes an emotional exercise
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[557] that's the end of justice.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[558] That's right, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[559] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[560] Or it could be the beginning of justice and the end of administering the law, because, how much of what goes on in court is actually administering the law, rather than determining natural justice. [561] I mean, you have had cases, of people who have killed somebody. [562] Perhaps they've given an overdose of pain killers, or sleeping tablets to an ailing elderly relative. [563] Perhaps at that requ , perhaps at that relatives request. [564] Now in the eyes of the law, they have committed a crime, but if you put that situation before a jury, and even though the judge may instruct the jury, a crime has been committed, you must find them guilty, the jury's inclination will probably be to say, natural justice, you, that you you done what was required of you, that you don't deserve to be either convicted or sent to prison for it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[565] Yes, right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[566] So what, there is a difference between administering the letter of the law and and the real justice of a particular situation, being achieved.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[567] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[568] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[569] Of course, the the essential thing in a case like that is , that it's been established who administered the tablets and why or whatever, and why they ad why why they administered them, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[570] Mhm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[571] This is what, this is what we're looking for, we're not thinking now particularly about either what recommendation they, the jury foreman makes, or what sentence the judge passes, the fact is that the truth or one would hope so, has been established. [572] Then you can start to think about, in what way can justice best be done in this particular case. [573] I say it, we're we're all the time, we're we're mixing up justice and law and all kinds of things.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[574] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[575] It's very difficult to separate them, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[576] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[577] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[578] It is.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[579] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[580] Could I, what, what is not, touched on in the notes, but is, I I think the other side of the coin ... is that, if justice means treating people fairly, this is on the basis of treating the accused fairly. [581] But what about people who had the wrong, inflicted upon them, isn't that equally a matter of justice [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[582] we only now seem to be getting round to recognising it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[583] Recognising, that's true.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[584] That's right, yes [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[585] It isn't brought up in these notes, which I ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[586] I mean, who funds them, are they completely charitable, or
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[587] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[588] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[589] Some of it comes from the Government, and some from the local authorities, but it's been cut back.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[590] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[591] [...] done it with probation service, paid money to them, but now, they can't do that, they've got to give the money for the prisoners, er, not for the, not for the victims of the crime.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[592] That's right. [593] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[594] Which seems all wrong.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[595] I think there is some room for suggesting that, erm, in certain circumstances, the actual perpetrator of the crime, could make retribution to the victim. [596] You know, where where it's been a case of vandalism or petty theft.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[597] Yeah
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[598] But you also have to take into consideration, the feelings of victims, I mean, it it would have to be, erm,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[599] only with their agreement,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[600] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[601] I mean, if somebody was petrified of setting eyes on the youth again, then it wouldn't do them much good, for him to be sent to make good what damage he's done to their house, or,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[602] Yes, it wants very delicate handling, I suppose.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[603] Well, the this friend of ours, the er, Director of Victims and Crime, er, we we have somebody at church who was burgled. [604] She is an elderly person, lives on her own, and er, he made a suggestion to her that she went with him to prison, to face the man, well, I don't whether it was the actual man, but men that had done burglaries, you see. [605] And she said she'd go, in fact, I I I had [...] fellowship on, because, remember we started on that Tuesday, I said, well, you'll all be surprised to know that going to prison tomorrow.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[606] [...] er, but she went, and she was, she said, that the men that she faced, one out of those, had never realised what he'd done, the trauma he'd caused, that [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[607] what he was getting, because he'd never given a thought to the people he was erm, burgling. [608] And when said what it had meant to her, loosing personal jewellery and things that was sentimental value to, you know, the family that had died, and they were the only things she'd got to remember them by, and so on. [609] He really was brought up in his tracks, and said, when he brought her home, well if that only made one person think, it's been worth it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[610] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[611] So,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[612] you know, but he's he's very bitter er, he's an ex-policeman, himself. [613] And he's very bitter about the way the victims are treated.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[614] Think about it and
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[615] The way the criminals are treated too.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[616] Yes, yes, that's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[617] In fact, he was telling me only the other week, about the the number of criminals that he knows, they're serving their they're serving sentences, and they're only ... one thing they're longing and hoping for, it is get out, so they can knock another old lady down,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[618] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[619] and and go and get some money and sell it, sell it in the car boot sale, and get back to prison all over again. [620] Nothing to worry about, no expenses, everything's taken care of, the only thing they haven't got is their freedom, but they've got everything else.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[621] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[622] They've got
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[623] more than the people have outside.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[624] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[625] I think, I think most criminals, I mean, there there must be one or two who er er, too dangerous to be let loose on society,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[626] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[627] but I think most criminals would probably benefit more, from being made to face, er,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[628] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[629] what they've done to society. [630] I mean, if somebody can't actually go back to the person they've harmed in a in a one to one situation, there's no reason why they shouldn't be doing some other form of community service.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[631] That's right, I agree.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[632] cos, as you say, if if they do have to come to grips with their fellow man, [...] to be at least some of them who are going to be impressed by that. [633] But how you can expect people to become more sociable by just being, you know, shut behind closed walls, and and not having to actually, fend for themselves and cope with life outside prison walls. [634] It doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[635] I think there's also the type [...] very often these people have left a family, a wife and children behind
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[636] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[637] and maybe they're not facing up to that responsibility.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[638] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[639] It could be seen in some cases as, maybe escapism, [...] we don't give enough thought to the wife and kids who've got dad er, er, in in court.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[640] No that, that's very true.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[641] [...] but I wonder having said that justice is a matter of treating people fairly, not only punishing them, presumably, in a fair way, deciding what is a fair way to treat, justly whether a person who's done something anti-social, is part of that fairness, trying to get them to see the the evil that they've done. [642] But, or is it just punishment, full top.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[643] [...] no you can't lock them up and throw away the key, that's that's, in a Christian society, that's not on, you've got to do something to help them to rehabilitate themselves. [644] [...] want to repent, for what they done. [645] But how far that that goes in prisons, I I don't know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[646] But there are people that go into prisons, aren't there, to to help them, I mean, there are councillors, and er, and people going into to give them interest in life, [clears throat] I mean, goes into teaching erm, er,Park Parkway, doesn't he.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[647] But it's
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[clears throat]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[648] again one of those things which appear to be under financial pressure, I mean, one of our most respected adult school members at national level was actually awarded the M B E for his work in Wandsworth Prison, where he ran an adult school for thirty years. [649] Erm, he finally had to shut the adult school, not because the prisoners weren't interested in in attending any more, but because the prison officers and the governor weren't able to provide the man-power to to cover the existence of that class.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[650] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[651] Erm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[652] There's a little bit more to it than that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[653] Yes, there is,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[654] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[655] Yes. [656] Oh aye.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[657] It was cos the prison, the warders, resented somebody going in and and doing this [...] for them.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[658] If anybody went into the prison, they had to be paid. [659] They weren't having any volunteers in. [660] Th this this was putting it very simply.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[661] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[662] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[663] I mean, if anyone saw that television programme a couple of weeks ago, about those prisoners who put on Guys and Dolls,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[664] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[665] where they were, the the prisoners were the chorus and and they had a local operatic society made the [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[666] erm, and [...] they did remarkably well, you know, taking it over, they were really very acceptable at the end, but the whole programme had this sub-plot of how antagonistic most of the prison officers were, not all of them, cos they obviously has some support to keep it going, but a lot of them were antagonistic towards what was going on, and not only that but just the the prison system, you know, this chap got transferred from one prison to another, when he was mid-way through rehearsals, you know, I mean why shouldn't he have stayed there,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[667] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[668] and completed this, this wonderful piece of thera therapy, which it was for him,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[669] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[670] before they transferred him to another prison. [671] I mean,wh what was the common sense of that sort of bureaucracy stamping on people.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[672] Well he must have been transferred for some reason or other.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[673] Oh, why.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[674] We
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[675] Well, that's something we don't know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[676] There may have been other prisoners.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[677] I mean they wouldn't [...] willy nilly, would they.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[678] Perhaps he was being treated badly.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[679] I mean, in fact, in fact.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[680] The implication was that there was no flexibility in the decision, it could have been held back, perhaps because he was involved in this, if you like, opportunity of a lifetime.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[681] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[682] Well, not to so long, er, I was going to Hampshire's to get bread, and as I was going in, and this fellow was coming out, he hands with me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[683] Ooh, [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[684] And then he got, he got on the bus, it was a Midland Red and it was going to erm, er where, it was going out of town, anyway, and he shook hands with the driver, because I couldn't help but, you know, notice what he was doing, and when I got [...] when I was in the shop and getting the bread, the girls in there were telling me that he shook hands with them, because he had just got out of prison, and he was a born again Christian.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[685] Ah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[686] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[687] And that's what had happened to him in the prison, because someone said, I wonder how long that will last.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[688] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[689] I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[690] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[691] But that's what he was saying.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[692] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[693] Can I touch on another thing, which I think, hasn't been mentioned in the notes, but is very much in our minds. [694] That is the long period where people are remanded. [695] There has been some very unfortunate suicides,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[696] Oh, yes, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[697] which is all our responsibility, presumably that delay is because we aren't providing sufficient judges or sufficient services to er, er, to try them in a much shorter term. [698] That seems to me, a very evil thing, if people are kept in prison for months before they've been found guilty.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[699] For years sometimes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[700] No, they've not even been charged.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[701] No, they're, they're
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[702] I mean, they're not, they're not criminals, [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[703] In the eyes of the law, they're innocent until they're proved guilty.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[704] They're innocent until they're proven guilty.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[705] Is it the fault, is it the fault of the judicial system, though, or is it the fault of the lawyers.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[706] It's partly the fault of the lawyers, it's partly the fault of the police, who have lots and lots and lots of paperwork to do
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[707] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[708] before these, before these cases can be brought to the court. [709] And an an and very, very often
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[710] But in Scotland they seem to manage to [...] with them.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[711] they haven't got the man-power to to do all this paperwork. [712] That, that is one reason for the delay.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[713] Another reason is, the lawyers. [714] used to say, that cases used to come before her court in in Rochdale, and it was an absolute disgrace ... that they ever came to court. [715] And that, the lawyers would spin them out
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[716] Mm. [717] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[718] for about three days, when they could have been one day.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[719] cos they're being paid by the hour.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[720] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[721] Yeah, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[722] Said it was an absolute disgrace.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[723] Yeah. [724] Er, this refers back to something said, a little while ago, talking about the fitness of judges, having come up through the legal system. [725] I mean, having heard criticisms of how lawyers behave, and having heard people say, how can you defend someone when you know jolly well they're guilty and this kind of thing. [726] How does that fit you to become a judge. [727] If you've actually be wangling system on your way up, which is what most of us seem to do at one time or another.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[728] Oh, they do, they definitely could do.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[729] Mm. [730] I think regarding the number of people who are in prison, whether on remand or otherwise, erm, reminds me of something that that I keep noticing, either hear it on the radio or in the paper. [731] But somebody has been sent to prison, they are the sort of person who you would think of, should never be sent to prison, somebody who has diddled his firm out of a couple of thousand. [732] That man is not a menace to society, and there are a great many other similar people who should never be in prison. [733] I don't know, I don't know how you could deal with them justly. [734] How any reparation could be made, and talking about reparation, this business over absent fathers, er, has just killed that idea of us getting more and more [...] in that kind of way, but I'm sure there are many people, and I'm not thinking about those who have been, committed an act of violence, and said, well they might do it again, but say, I'm pretty sure people who have been committed in effect of what you could call civil crimes, that is putting their hand in the drawer, should never be in prison. [735] If anybody wants to employ them, they should know before, and then employ them at their own risk.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[736] And they can, I mean, they can even continue with original employer and work as you might say, for nothing, until they've paid back, what they took.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[737] Well, that's [...] could do.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[738] Yes, that's right. [739] There's plenty of room for that sort of thing.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[740] Mm. [741] I mean, that flies in the face of all the current pressures, all of the current political [...] about, if you're a naughty boy, into prison you go, and for the longer the better. [742] And now we have another er, sub-crop of people who have been discharged into community care from mental hospitals,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[743] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[744] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[745] Who are not sufficiently in control of themselves to take their medication, and then they become paranoid or manic, and they, erm, commit social crimes again, and so they're
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[cough]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[746] part part of the treadmill, too.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[747] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[748] They're not criminals in the real sense of criminality, but that's where they end up, because that's the only dustbin they can send them to.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[749] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[750] Who was it that said, The Law's an Ass.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[751] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[752] [...] one thing, times ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[753] No. [754] It was the Beadle in Oliver Twist.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[755] Oh, yes, yes, that's right. [756] Mr Bumble.
Frank (PS4DV)	[757] Times running out, but the local thing, not the local, that's the thing, er, appeared on on, er, the news tonight, er what happened, announced by ... Home Secretary, I think it was, there, I'm not quite sure, where children under [...] er, children under sixteen, if they er, do not er, abide by the instruction of the juvenile court where they have conducted misdemeanours. [758] The parents can now be fined up to a thousand pounds for the children, because they haven't carried out the instructions of the court. [759] That seems to me, to need a lot of thinking about, because if you've got difficult children,ra the last thing we want to do is think you've got a thousand pound fine or so. [760] Anyway, if you can't pay it, what do they do with them.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[761] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[762] I I'm, this doesn't seem to me, a very intelligent way, I I, somehow or other you've got to get the parents, win them to behave properly towards the children without the threat of a heavy fine on their head. [763] I mean, there's a, I mean, the consequence of a heavy fine, the next thing is they'll be in prison, cos they haven't paid a fine.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[764] Where does it end.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[765] But the story goes that money speaks, and some people, some parents, if they get hit in the pocket, will probably take more notice of their child,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[766] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[767] than they've taken for months or years before.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[768] Yes, I think that's [...] If you, if your dog goes and bites somebody,an , you're in trouble, because you've let him get out of control, and [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[769] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[770] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[771] but if your child goes and burns a a school down, he he gets away with it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[772] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[773] That doesn't seem right to me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[774] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[775] They shouldn't, they shouldn't. [776] Parents should be held to some degree, not necessarily to a tune of a thousand pound, but they should be made in some way, to be responsible for their [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[777] Yeah, but I agree, it's just a question of the way you do it. [778] It seems a very clumsy way of, just thinking of terms of financial.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[779] Well, well it's it's what, as has said, it's
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[780] it's the best way to get people. [781] Pay up.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[782] They are some parents that do ... [...] bringing out a book.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[783] Oh aye, well [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[784] will will know, and my daughter says, if she's got children that are a real problem, she'd want to know what their homes like, and that usually gives an answer, which you [...] too.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[785] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[786] Erm, we've got a friend that was erm, a store detective, in fact, it's the wife of the er, Victim of Crime Support Group. [787] She was a store detective and she caught a child, at shop-lifting. [788] The the ruling is, that if you catch a child you take her and keep her in the office and send for the parents. [789] Well she sent for, her mother came, and er, when she came in, explained to her, why she'd sent for her, and she smacked the child across the face, and said, there was no need to do that. [790] She said, that's for getting caught.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[791] Oh.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[792] Yeah. [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[793] Well, now what, now what chance does that child have of of growing up. [794] Now those sort of parents need [cough] something [...] to
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[795] I mean [...] yes, that's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[796] to catch them.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[797] I mean, in a much more, erm, a le a less severe example, but we're having a Road Safety Week, at school, this week, erm, and it was my class's turn, yesterday afternoon, so I was just there keeping a watching brief with my my children while the, road safety representative was talking to them, and she put them us through the usual hoops of erm, did any of them play on the roadside ... un unattended. [798] Had any of them crossed the road on their own. [799] Bearing in mind that they're only six and seven in my class, er, and then talking erm, about how they travelled in cars, and and how many of them had ridden in the front seat, er, and most of them put their hands up, and I mean, the recommendation is that if you're under twelve years of age, you should never ride in the front seat, and so on and so forth. [800] Erm, and I mean, I I was just cringing after that, hearing all these, minor horror stories coming coming out, and then to cap it all, one little girl put her hand up and said erm, my daddy was stopped by the police once for not wearing his seat-belt. [801] Presumably he was driving.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[802] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[803] Erm, er, and ... he got a ticket, and he had to, you know, you have to take this ticket to the Police Station for not having worn his ... seat-belt. [804] Erm, so he always looks out for police cars now, but he still won't wear his belt.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[805] Oh.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[806] So I mean, several of us, as teachers, have got together today, and said, it's not the children who need road safety instructions it's the parents,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[807] The adults [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[808] and in the same way, if if they're being given that example,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[809] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[810] of how to worm their way round things all the time, rather than follow the rules.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[811] Mm, yes, that's right.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[812] Well, they're going to be brought up dishonest.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[813] It starts small, and it gets big.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[814] Yes, it does, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[815] Well, I [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[816] I mean, we all bends the rules to our own advantage from time to time, I mean, nobody pretends they're whiter than white. [817] But, there are vary degrees in everything, aren't there.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[818] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[819] Well, the concern is to to er, punish the children in a way, that they will realise they're going to wrong way. [820] But at the moment, you feel as if they're getting patted on the head [...] and it's giving them a push down the wrong way.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[821] I feel very sorry for for the parents of Jamie
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[822] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[823] I mean, who can help but feel other than sorry for them, but for them to to burst out and say that those two little boys, which is all that they are,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[824] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[825] let's face it, you know, deserve to be locked up for the rest of their natural lives. [826] That's not going to serve any purpose whatsoever
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[827] [...] right, no.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[828] On the other hand,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[829] unless they get help while they're locked up,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[830] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[831] you know, [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[832] They won't be any better.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[833] they won't be any better.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[834] That's the whole point, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[835] In any case, even though they chose a a minimum sentence, they'll be twenty or twenty one [...] yeah, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[836] It's it's as long as they've lived already, practically, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[837] But it's perfectly natural, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[838] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[839] Oh, absolutely.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[840] I mean, it's perfectly natural for his parents to be like that.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[841] Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[842] I mean, wouldn't we think.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[843] Oh certainly would.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[844] I mean, we would, we would, [...] probably want to come out and [...] you know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[845] Coming down to children er, are doing wilful damage and er graffiti and all this sort of thing. [846] I do think when they're caught, they are, to me it seems as if they ought to be made to clear up some graffiti and and realise what they're doing because, I don't think half the time, they realise the the upset they cause.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[847] No. [848] We had some little boys at the end there, throwing sticks up at a chestnut tree, or you know,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[849] Oh yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[850] and erm, I went along, look at all this mess. [851] Oh, we're we're clear it up. [852] I said, erm, what you doing throwing sticks up, where where the stick. [853] Oh, it's up there, [...] it fell down and erm, went along and picked it up, so I took it off them, and said, how would you like it if I threw sticks at you, [...] anyway, they said, oh I'm sorry, you know, they they sort of cleared everything up and went off. [854] But, I mean, often when you go and approach children like that, you find, that you know, all you get is a mouthful of [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[855] Yes, that's true, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[856] I'm afraid, you know, that it's it's a shame because of, I I feel that ... if they are stopped like that, to be talked to and quietly and point out, you know, what they
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[857] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[858] doing wrong, and that, you know, they'll go away, but so often these days, of course, the parents all they all take no notice, yeah, silly old fool, you know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[859] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[860] Well, I was going to say, at [...] last year at my friends house, and they have all open front, beautiful frontage, nice big house they are, and two kiddies on bikes started riding down the, across the front gardens instead of on the pavement, or the road, and she said to me, oh, I'll stop this, I'm not having this. [861] cos there was lawns and flower beds and everything, you see, and they was going over it. [862] And her husband, go and give them a clout, so she said, no, and she walked up to them, and quietly said,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[863] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[864] Where do you live? [865] [cough] They told her where they lived, just up the road. [866] Well, she said, I think I'll get my bike out,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[867] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[868] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[869] and come and ride over your mother's front garden and and see what she thinks.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[870] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[871] And they said, oh no. [872] She said, oh yes. [873] This is where I live and you're running all over it like this and spoiling it. [874] I shall have to come and do it to your mother and see what she thinks. [875] And they they went away like lambs, you know, really they was shocked.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[876] Their their mother's front lawn could very well been a wilderness. [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[877] That's true. [878] [laugh] couldn't spoil it if you tried.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[879] No, that's true.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[880] Oh.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[881] Well, I think ...
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[882] [...] she said, she had found when dealing with some of these of kids up where they live, that erm, a quiet talk there and then, only talk.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[883] Well, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[884] Better than if you shout.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[885] Better than if you shout.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[886] I think that depends on where you live.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[887] Well, there very posh houses in the road.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[888] Yeah, but I mean, can you imagine paying for that, some of the lot that live on
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[889] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[890] an estate, you know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[891] Well, I [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[892] Well, it's worth trying, anyway, I mean.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[893] I came out of church one day, to do some visiting, from the over sixties, and there was a boy with a a great chunk of rock in his hand, and he was looking at the window. [894] Well, we've had an awful lot of damage to the church. [895] In fact, on all the windows wired up now, and I walked up to him, and I just said, would you like to give to me, son, and he turned round and looked at me, and to my great surprise he gave it to me.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[896] I didn't know what to do with it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[897] [...] so surprised [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[898] But I said, well look, I think I'd better put it in my bag, don't you, it won't do any harm there. [899] And, he looked at me, and said, I'm sorry. [900] But then behind me came a lot of other lads,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[901] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[902] You great fool, what did you do that for. [903] And when they're all together, that that's when the problem is.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[904] That's when the trouble starts.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[905] That's that's when the trouble is.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[906] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[907] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[908] But that's the same with any group, whatever age, isn't it.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[909] [...] you're being encouraged from being [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[910] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[911] Yeah. [912] Oh, yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[913] But I, I mean, I I think it's true to say, that ninety-nine times out of a hundred, if you do approach these so-called yobs as if they're human beings, they usually react like human beings.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[914] It pays to do it [...]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[915] It does, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[916] I think so.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[917] It is not easy to approach them in a situation like that, without being angry.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[918] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[919] No.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[920] [...] the clue, I I'm sure if I made a mistakes like that, it's because it's, you know, maybe angry and I made the wrong approach.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[921] Mm.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[922] I must tell you that when we lived in Morley, in, up in Yorkshire, we erm, we were having trouble with some yobbos coming up from Leeds, you know, and we had, there was an old sergeant in in Morley, you know, [...] for years, and tall. [923] Well, very well known, I can't remember his name now, but he he had two methods of getting rid of them, erm. [924] One they were going into a pub, and going into the toilets, you know, making a, so he had a a policeman waiting in and the toilets, for them you see, and the o one other, notable occasion he was seen chasing them down the main street in Morley, he got his cape on, you see,
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[925] he was boom, whacking them with his cape, sort of chasing them out of town, you know, and I must say, they never came back. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[926] It's like a matador
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[927] Yes. [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[928] I know.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[929] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[930] Well
Frank (PS4DV)	[931] The subject was, was er, Justice for All, Fact or Fiction.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[laugh]
Frank (PS4DV)	[932] and we had a bit of both. [933] Would, would. [934] We they guessed, has anyone guessed.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[935] Yeah, well, I might.
Frank (PS4DV)	[936] You you know, then.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[937] Yeah.
Frank (PS4DV)	[938] Would you like to hear the cutting. [939] It's only fifty old years old.
Unknown speaker (KGRPSUNK)	[940] Mm.
Frank (PS4DV)	[941] But it's in my little green bag somewhere, do you know where it is. [942] Put on floor here, my little green plastic bag. [943] You should read it, it's f