Careers service meeting. Sample containing about 10315 words speech recorded in business context

8 speakers recorded by respondent number C784

PS21K X f (Sue, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
PS21L X m (Bill, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
PS21M X f (Sylvia, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
PS21N X m (Kevin, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
PS21P X f (Cath, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
PS21R X f (Diane, age unknown, careers advisor) unspecified
KLXPSUNK (respondent W0000) X u (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other
KLXPSUGP (respondent W000M) X u (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other

1 recordings

  1. Tape 091202 recorded on 1993-04-23. LocationNorth Yorkshire: Selby () Activity: meeting

Undivided text

Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1] [...] so
Sylvia (PS21M) [2] She was like a dog with a bone
Bill (PS21L) [3] Oh I know
Sylvia (PS21M) [4] wasn't she let it
Sue (PS21K) [5] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [6] go.
Bill (PS21L) [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [7] Well you see especially as well with the typewrite we've got at the moment
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [8] That's right, yes.
Cath (PS21P) [9] I mean it's [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [10] In fact as soon as I walked in I wasn't allowed to go to my desk until I promised her I would get the computer out
Sue (PS21K) [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [11] first, before I did anything else.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [12] If you didn't get it out at that time it'd be half past eleven and she'd lose two hours.
Cath (PS21P) [laugh]
Sylvia (PS21M) [13] Martin wasn't very happy though was he when he came
Bill (PS21L) [14] No.
Sylvia (PS21M) [15] in the morning to you?
Bill (PS21L) [16] Well she should have shifted it all up to yours [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [17] I know
Bill (PS21L) [18] She's supposed to have taken it off
Sylvia (PS21M) [19] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [20] Ooh.
[21] I don't know if it would affect
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [22] anybody in York.
Diane (PS21R) [23] [...] in there, [...]
Sue (PS21K) [24] Yes.
[25] I can't think, see Isabel's already got t quite a lot of scale two time
Sylvia (PS21M) [26] She's [...] scale two anyway.
[27] Yeah yeah.
[28] And she'll, she's one-off so I mean she'd never go to p [...]
Sue (PS21K) [29] No.
Sylvia (PS21M) [30] anyway.
Sue (PS21K) [31] Don't think she would, no.
Cath (PS21P) [32] It would only be if somebody was off on long term sickness or
Sue (PS21K) [33] Only when I keep getting her to do all this typing for me.
Cath (PS21P) [34] Yeah but look at that in a week, I mean
Sue (PS21K) [35] And look I mean she'd never spend
Cath (PS21P) [36] two hours a week.
Sue (PS21K) [37] forty percent of her time because she does it so quickly [laugh] but er oh
Bill (PS21L) [38] Being tied to reception though you see,J Julie's likely to do quite a lot because she's got to stay there so you've got to [...]
Cath (PS21P) [39] Yes yes yes yes.
Sue (PS21K) [40] Rather than giving her any other jobs.
Sylvia (PS21M) [41] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [42] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [43] Yeah.
[44] Erm
Sue (PS21K) [45] Right so I'll erm sort of see what I can do with Julie.
[46] Quite nice [...]
Cath (PS21P) [47] I don't know if she's at the top of one yet I imagine she probably [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [48] She will be yeah
Cath (PS21P) [49] Yeah I'm sure she is.
Diane (PS21R) [50] She will she's been
Cath (PS21P) [51] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [52] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [53] here four years.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [54] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [55] And I'm not sure, I can't remember which, I don't know whether she started on the bottom or the bottom I've a feeling she may be didn't start on the bottom actually
Sylvia (PS21M) [56] No I don't think she did.
Sue (PS21K) [57] Mm mm.
Sylvia (PS21M) [58] No.
Cath (PS21P) [59] so
Sue (PS21K) [60] So it would take her two increments into scale two.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [61] Mm mhm.
Sue (PS21K) [62] Which you know is an advantage in other ways as well I think, because if you know she's being paid scale two you know other responsibility comes with it as well
Bill (PS21L) [63] Yes.
Cath (PS21P) [64] That's right.
Sue (PS21K) [65] even though she's getting it for the technology.
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [66] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [67] Mm.
[68] I, I, I mean I do think that w what we would have to do is, is if people started making inroads into two via this route, it might mean then we'd get to the point where it wasn't going to cost that much more to enable other scale one people
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [69] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [70] to do that.
[71] Because I still think this is very much discriminating on the, people like Val for example, I know she's got a little bit of scale two but I still think the reception is such a big responsibility
Bill (PS21L) [72] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [73] and particularly
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [74] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [75] in a, a big office like York.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [76] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [77] The thing is a couple of increments is not a great deal of money is it?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [78] [...] you swing, you multiply it around the council it makes a difference
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [79] Yeah
Bill (PS21L) [80] but within an office
Sylvia (PS21M) [81] Yeah
Bill (PS21L) [82] it's
Sylvia (PS21M) [83] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [84] I mean what do you get paid?
[85] A pound a week extra?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [86] Me?
[87] Yeah
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [88] Yeah yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [89] That's cos I'm only half time, I'd get two pound if I were
Cath (PS21P) [90] Yeah
Sylvia (PS21M) [91] full time.
Cath (PS21P) [92] And you're [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [93] Some pe some people would think it wasn't worth it, but erm
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [94] [...] isn't is it?
Sue (PS21K) [95] Well if you look at it, if you look at it [...] , if you look
Sylvia (PS21M) [96] [...] financially [...]
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [97] at it for responsibility and financial reasons and if you log down every bit that you spent doing admin assistant and E O then you'd say stuff this for a game of soldiers but you don't
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [98] Mm mm.
Sue (PS21K) [99] do it purely for that reason do you?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [100] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [101] In
Diane (PS21R) [102] Oh no but if you look at the responsibility an E O hasn't got for scale three, why are we flogging ourselves to death on scale four?
Sue (PS21K) [103] Oh but that's, that's the same for erm Kevin as well isn't it?
[104] Especially
Kevin (PS21N) [105] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [106] when Kevin doesn't get paid overtime and careers officers
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [107] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [108] m most of the careers officers that are on si scale six are taking more money home than Kevin is.
Kevin (PS21N) [109] Yeah it's true yeah.
[110] That's right you don't want to [...]
Sue (PS21K) [111] So it's just the organization [...] .
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...] [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [112] Doesn't make it right, no but [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [113] [...] situation so mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [114] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [115] Yeah I suppose.
Sue (PS21K) [116] No I was actually getting at a certain person that works for Trident that doesn't think it's worth extra hassle for a hundred and eighty pounds more a year.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [117] Yeah and it's, the difference between that is, isn't it that somebody that's in the post will not give as much as another person in the same post
Sue (PS21K) [118] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [119] but what can you do?
Sue (PS21K) [120] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [121] It's down to that individual isn't it?
[122] How they view
Sue (PS21K) [123] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [124] you know if that person in project Trident's got a much easier [...] for her scale four than you
Sue (PS21K) [125] Mm.
[126] well I mean there's, the, the other thing is the differential around the, the county cos there was a time when when
Cath (PS21P) [127] [...] waiting for Sheila to retire cos
Sue (PS21K) [128] whe
Cath (PS21P) [129] I'm gonna love one member of staff to look after.
Sue (PS21K) [130] when the area career [laughing] [...] []
Cath (PS21P) [131] She's only got one to appraise so she can only have one [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [132] [laughing] I wouldn't let her appraise [...] []
Cath (PS21P) [133] [...] wonderful job. [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [134] Erm
Kevin (PS21N) [135] Yeah you'd have to work for Deborah then [...]
Sue (PS21K) [136] Yeah.
[137] You'd have to work for Deborah you'd love that.
Sylvia (PS21M) [138] I know and to be quite honest with you the other day
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [139] You don't have to work with Deborah [...]
Cath (PS21P) [140] [...] I'm not sure between her and Tony, Tony's so busy looking into
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [141] he's going, so busy looking on what's going on behind the question that's being asked, that you never answer the question that you're being asked in the first place.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [142] [...] me as well actually [...] I did one of your tricks Sue ... I mean we'd done something I mean [...] is it Li Liz went in and said, and would you like to report Tony on what you've discussed, and I just spoke he never even got a got chance to say one other sentence [laugh] [...] I'm just doing a [...] .
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [143] Taking over
Diane (PS21R) [144] Me that didn't know what to do I wasn't gonna participate.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [145] Yeah well.
Sue (PS21K) [146] Oh I know what I was gonna quickly go through the, I was going through the training wasn't I?
[147] So there's the
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [148] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [149] technology bit then there was managem was identified that m management training was needed for all line managers.
[150] Erm ... yes so there's a variety of things there.
[151] Careers librarians, that was quite a good point but we've actually t got a group of professionals working within the service, we need to make sure they have access to other professional librarians and staff development that would be
Bill (PS21L) [152] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [153] appropriate to them.
[154] Rather than just appropriate to the careers service.
Cath (PS21P) [155] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [156] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [157] Erm but the more general training er sort of across the board that came up for staff in general was certain things that are, are bound to happen for example on course training will happen.
[158] Update on H E C G software, negotiation skills, train the trainers, group work, resources, presentation skills, interviewing skills,m marketing our guidance, adult update for E Os, the [...] with the unemployed, employer work, personnel skills, recruitment and interviewing skills, employer legislation update, summaries of guidance, careers guidance agreements, management training, business financial management, supervisory skills, supervision of probationers, appraisal interviewing skills, careers education and guidance for careers officers in equal opportunities.
Kevin (PS21N) [159] I asked Liz specifically to put on the list this one that I try trying to do with E Os, the group work one
Kevin (PS21N) [160] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [161] Yes it's being asked all the time.
Kevin (PS21N) [162] Because Alan said it would be I know.
[163] And er Alan keeps saying, you can do it but you have to wait to the next programme coming through and I specifically asked for Liz to put it on.
[164] Now I'm not sure [...]
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [165] come under that you think?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [166] I don't know
Bill (PS21L) [167] In fact we've had a couple of meetings recently Kevin with, with erm the employment office looking at, at their changing role
Kevin (PS21N) [168] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [169] and certainly from the, the first meeting that we had, which is only a month ago, that was one of the things, one, one of the outcomes
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [170] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [171] was that erm Jane erm has put down that [...] take place and your name and I said
Kevin (PS21N) [172] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [173] I would, I would help
Sue (PS21K) [174] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [175] if it was necessary
Kevin (PS21N) [176] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [177] So I [...]
Sue (PS21K) [178] Did she do me a note to, to raise that we've got a follow up meeting erm about this training.
[179] I think it's
Kevin (PS21N) [180] Cos I've had er you might have had the west one to me again, well not just recently but just er er a month ago saying, is it still on, is it still going to happen?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [181] It, it, it [...]
Bill (PS21L) [182] Yeah it minuted for
Cath (PS21P) [183] Yeah it was minuted for
Bill (PS21L) [184] the [...]
Sue (PS21K) [185] Have you got a date?
Cath (PS21P) [186] We've not no.
Bill (PS21L) [187] No Alan's not given me the go ahead really to, to do [...] .
[188] I mean he sort of
Cath (PS21P) [189] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [190] said it'd be for April you see [...]
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [191] next budget.
Sue (PS21K) [192] Right.
Cath (PS21P) [193] Yeah it was the two training aspects that came out of that meeting one was
Bill (PS21L) [194] That's right it was all
Cath (PS21P) [195] training in C V workshops and the other one was presentation skills and group work skills
Kevin (PS21N) [196] Oh yes yes.
[197] That's quite a good idea isn't it?
[198] Cos we have to
Cath (PS21P) [199] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [200] give that advice all the time.
Sue (PS21K) [201] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [202] Th yeah well what we said
Bill (PS21L) [203] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [204] was we wanted
Kevin (PS21N) [205] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [206] something you know
Kevin (PS21N) [207] Good idea that.
Cath (PS21P) [208] if we're going to get into helping people to draw up C Vs then we need training in that area .
Kevin (PS21N) [209] Job search skills.
Sylvia (PS21M) [210] Training, yeah yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [211] Well that, yeah good thinking.
Cath (PS21P) [212] Because it is, it's very very [...]
Bill (PS21L) [213] There's a handout there which we talked
Kevin (PS21N) [214] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [215] about an er
Sue (PS21K) [216] And said that's one of the things we can do.
Cath (PS21P) [217] [...] do
Bill (PS21L) [218] Th these are things that we need to look at
Sue (PS21K) [219] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [220] And if we can do it we need to be
Bill (PS21L) [221] So that e E Os need to be looking at how to help with interview
Cath (PS21P) [222] Okay.
Kevin (PS21N) [223] Mm mm.
Bill (PS21L) [224] techniques
Sue (PS21K) [225] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [226] er what, you know how, what to expect.
Sue (PS21K) [227] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [228] Erm use of computers er how, so al help you filling in job search, so these
Kevin (PS21N) [229] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [230] are the sort of things
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [231] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [232] that [...] also saying you
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [233] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [234] know we'd like
Kevin (PS21N) [235] Good.
Bill (PS21L) [236] training on those.
Kevin (PS21N) [237] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [238] Erm and in group sessions and also with E T you know training for work as well.
Cath (PS21P) [239] Training for work as it
Sylvia (PS21M) [240] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [241] is at the moment.
Bill (PS21L) [242] Er presentation skills
Sue (PS21K) [243] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [244] much wider role
Kevin (PS21N) [245] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [246] in [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [247] So there's quite a lot.
Bill (PS21L) [248] Sounds about right.
Sue (PS21K) [249] Follow up meeting's next Friday, a week today and I've written it in my diary so I'll make sure I bring it up then.
Kevin (PS21N) [250] Can I just say that er Ray phoned me up the other day and he said er, would you be prepared to take part in probationers', er regional probationary sort of training day er which is at [...] coming up er in a few months time, to give erm presentation skills er I part of what we were doing, erm but just those O H Ps that we did on that part.
[251] And that was quite interesting.
Sue (PS21K) [252] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [253] Erm so I said, okay.
[254] Have to go along and sort that out.
Sue (PS21K) [255] He did mention [...] to me now I'd forgotten until
Kevin (PS21N) [256] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [257] you mentioned it but he
Kevin (PS21N) [258] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [259] had mentioned to me actually
Kevin (PS21N) [260] Yeah.
[261] It was purely just on that part because Ray, Brian was doing other w other, in fact group work skills
Bill (PS21L) [262] Mhm.
Sue (PS21K) [263] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [264] the other bit to, to them and there was
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [265] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [266] a couple of sessions purely on the actual, no public speaking that's right, it was actually public speaking rather than
Sylvia (PS21M) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [267] Yeah yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [268] Have you worked with Brian before?
Kevin (PS21N) [269] I dunno, his name's so familiar.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [270] See you [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [271] See you [...] , bye.
Sue (PS21K) [272] He's alright.
[273] Right.
[274] I didn't really think it was going to take me very long to go through that, sorry.
[275] But I mean it brought up a lot of things that we perhaps
Sylvia (PS21M) [276] It did, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [277] needed to talk about anyway didn't it?
Kevin (PS21N) [278] So [...] we'd already touched on haven't we?
[279] By taking
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [280] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [281] away [...] stuff, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [282] Right, are we going to finish at half twelve?
Sylvia (PS21M) [283] Mhm.
Kevin (PS21N) [284] Yeah, sounds reasonable.
Sue (PS21K) [285] So if we try and tackle the staff appraisal, at least
Kevin (PS21N) [286] Yeah,
Sue (PS21K) [287] before lunch.
Kevin (PS21N) [288] right, no problems.
Bill (PS21L) [289] This sorted out staffing for the office Diane?
Diane (PS21R) [290] Yes [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [cough]
Sue (PS21K) [291] Right, we've been postponing this discussion, I know, erm because we've not sort of felt er we've not fitted it into previous meetings.
[292] Just to sort of update on where we're at with it.
[293] I've been done and Bill's been done.
[294] [laugh] Kevin's been done but I've not given him anything back in writing yet, which I've go to do.
[295] Erm next stage, have you done [laughing] Diane or Sylvia [] ?
Bill (PS21L) [296] No have I arranged a day with Sylvia but then I
Sylvia (PS21M) [297] The day is set.
Bill (PS21L) [298] realized
Sue (PS21K) [299] Right.
Bill (PS21L) [300] we didn't have the yellow booklets so
Sue (PS21K) [301] Ah and I've not brought them with me, they're in my office, sorry.
[302] I said I'd bring them today didn't I?
Bill (PS21L) [303] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [304] And I [...]
Bill (PS21L) [305] But I might have to cancel it on what, what Deborah's said.
Sue (PS21K) [306] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [307] Why?
[308] What does Deborah [...] ?
Sue (PS21K) [309] Cos they've not been trained yet.
Sylvia (PS21M) [310] Yeah, and then she did keep speaking
Bill (PS21L) [311] Cos they've not had a three hour training sessions.
Sylvia (PS21M) [312] out very strongly didn't she [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [313] Sorry,th they?
[314] Who's they?
Bill (PS21L) [315] They were supposed to come back to the offices and do a three hour training
Sue (PS21K) [316] Mm training
Bill (PS21L) [317] session with all staff.
[318] Remember? [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [319] Well it was talked about but, oh
Cath (PS21P) [320] [...] wouldn't be us cos we went to the
Bill (PS21L) [321] Yes
Sue (PS21K) [322] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [323] no we had to do it
Cath (PS21P) [324] [...] training.
Sue (PS21K) [325] Yeah but we've got to do the training.
Cath (PS21P) [326] We were
Bill (PS21L) [327] We were trained to train.
Cath (PS21P) [328] Yes yes but what I meant is it doesn't stop us being
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [329] No.
Cath (PS21P) [330] No.
Bill (PS21L) [331] No Sylvia wasn't there.
Cath (PS21P) [332] Can't be appraised then but I mean
Sue (PS21K) [333] Yeah no.
[334] I
Bill (PS21L) [335] Yes
Sue (PS21K) [336] [...] to my next thing [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [337] Can I have a little plaster please?
Cath (PS21P) [338] Oh what you done?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [339] Just a paper cut but [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [340] Ooh.
Bill (PS21L) [341] I'd go home if I were you.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [342] [laughing] Not my office [] . [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [343] [...] classification is stupid so all [...] altered and all
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [344] [...] plasters
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [345] the numbers are changed and
Bill (PS21L) [346] Oh no
Cath (PS21P) [347] What are you telling me for?
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [348] Have a bandage is okay?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [349] I don't need a bandage.
Bill (PS21L) [350] Are you allergic to plasters?
Sue (PS21K) [351] If there's not a little one there I've got a [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [352] You see a thin one?
[353] Just a thin one.
Sue (PS21K) [354] I've got a little one.
Bill (PS21L) [355] Do you want to do the hanky?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [356] No that's alright. [...]
Sue (PS21K) [357] Cos I've got erm maybe we need some more [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [358] Do you want a dirty hanky, wrap round.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [359] No.
Sue (PS21K) [360] Cos I hurt my finger the other day.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [361] We're [...] keep anything here now.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [362] No but technically
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [363] Oh I know technically.
Bill (PS21L) [364] You are allowed to keep them but in a centred box.
Sue (PS21K) [365] What?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [366] Plasters.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [367] I know but where else do keep 'em [...] know where they are?
Cath (PS21P) [368] Cos the allergic reaction [...] not allowed to
Bill (PS21L) [369] Well
Cath (PS21P) [370] plasters are not part of a first aid box.
[371] You should not
Bill (PS21L) [372] So the only thing you've got is something just to wrap round.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [373] Oh I know.
Bill (PS21L) [374] That's about it.
Cath (PS21P) [375] [...] useless but I mean they should come out of somebody's drawer under their own personal supply.
Sylvia (PS21M) [376] Yeah same with paracetamol.
Bill (PS21L) [377] Along with the paracetamol. [laugh]
Cath (PS21P) [378] Yeah if they have a reaction
Bill (PS21L) [379] Bottles and bottles [...]
Cath (PS21P) [380] it's their own fault.
[381] It hasn't come out of a first aid.
Sue (PS21K) [382] Office, yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [383] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [384] Well we unofficially have paracetamol in there but that's why [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [385] As long as it's not in that green box it doesn't, they have been to check on us I mean [...]
Bill (PS21L) [386] I think all staff have their big bottles in their drawers somewhere.
Sylvia (PS21M) [387] Yeah we did but a while ago
Cath (PS21P) [388] [...] Health and Safety yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [389] co couple of years of ago
Cath (PS21P) [390] Safety inspectors yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [391] Well I don't know who put that box of plasters in there.
Cath (PS21P) [392] No I don't.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [393] [...] Jackie husband's doing it, I'm sure that we'll
Sylvia (PS21M) [394] Yes yes.
Cath (PS21P) [395] all be investigated.
Bill (PS21L) [396] Yeah they can actually just turn up and say let's have a look at your box.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [397] Right if we can get back to the appraisal.
Cath (PS21P) [398] Oh we'll take it out after.
Sue (PS21K) [399] Erm
Bill (PS21L) [400] Husband got a job?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [401] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [402] Yes, training to be a factories' inspector.
Kevin (PS21N) [403] Oh right.
[404] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [405] Right, yeah i I've got a, I need to set a date with Catherine, an appraisal and then we'll be, are you not looking forward to it?
Diane (PS21R) [406] I am not.
Sue (PS21K) [407] It'll be good, it was good wasn't it Kevin?
Kevin (PS21N) [408] Actually I, I, I thought it was fun, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [409] It's just that I dunno I mean
Sue (PS21K) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [410] the ones I've
Kevin (PS21N) [411] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [412] so far had
Kevin (PS21N) [413] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [414] got erm, well we never got anywhere, I never got anything back and it was just a total, I was a guinea pig
Sue (PS21K) [415] Well we do get a positive f
Kevin (PS21N) [416] I think a I think actually who you have 'em with like with Sue I mean I was quite positive about this er I can understand you sort of just w who did you have 'em with before?
Diane (PS21R) [417] [...] my two best friends Jeff and Peter.
Kevin (PS21N) [418] That's right
Sue (PS21K) [419] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [420] so
Diane (PS21R) [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [421] they're, I don't, I have a f you know they're I dunno.
Sue (PS21K) [422] Well i I mean I think I certainly feel positive based
Kevin (PS21N) [423] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [424] on the experience so far really
Kevin (PS21N) [425] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [426] and
Bill (PS21L) [427] What I'm sorry I switched off a couple of minutes ago
Sue (PS21K) [428] Of, of, of the, of the [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [429] We're talking about C E T.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [430] What do you think?
[431] [laugh] No appraisal.
Bill (PS21L) [432] Appraisal, yes.
Kevin (PS21N) [433] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [434] Yes I found it useful, yeah
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [435] And you written your targets for me yet Bill?
Bill (PS21L) [436] No I've started them though.
Sue (PS21K) [437] Right.
Bill (PS21L) [438] I've started I've not written I know but I've started [...]
Sue (PS21K) [439] Thinking about it okay.
[440] Well I have, I have a problem with spending three hours training staff in the office.
[441] I mean let's face it it's not realistic.
[442] Kevin and Bill and I have discussed this, we don't think it's realistic.
[443] I mean whether we think it's necessary or not is another matter.
Kevin (PS21N) [444] Yes t I can't see that happening [...]
Bill (PS21L) [445] Everybody's supposed to have a go at
Sue (PS21K) [446] How
Bill (PS21L) [447] appraising somebody and being appraised
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [448] so they can appreciate what the situation is.
Sylvia (PS21M) [449] Well I mean I did those pilot appraisals
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [450] Mm.
Sylvia (PS21M) [451] here last year [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [452] Well yeah cos everybody's
Sylvia (PS21M) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [453] gone through it here.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [454] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [455] I mean
Bill (PS21L) [456] Yes we had quite a lot of pilot [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [457] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [458] in York.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [459] What we'd proposed
Sylvia (PS21M) [460] And [...] me
Sue (PS21K) [461] what we were going to propose was that K when Kevin, Bill and I met and we, we talked about this we said, let's prepare, I volunteered actually, to prepare a summary sheet
Bill (PS21L) [462] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [463] of the main points that that training would cover.
[464] And that we would issue those summary sheets at a staff meeting and we would go through it at a staff meeting and that that, probably that was as much as we could do
Bill (PS21L) [465] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [466] by way of ensuring staff knew what was going on and had something by way of training.
Bill (PS21L) [467] But
Kevin (PS21N) [468] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [469] [...] managed it.
Sylvia (PS21M) [470] And Skipton.
Kevin (PS21N) [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [471] Would they have had the three hour thing?
Sue (PS21K) [472] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [473] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [474] Away from the office as well wasn't it?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [475] night out [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [476] [...] I agree I'm, was winding you up. [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [477] I mean that because Deborah kept going on and on and on about this three hour thing didn't she?
[478] All the time she kept coming back to it.
[479] When you go and do your three hour training sessions, didn't she?
Diane (PS21R) [480] Well the point she was trying to make was that the, it d the, the appraisal interview would be so s so easy because the staff will know exactly what
Sue (PS21K) [481] What
Diane (PS21R) [482] to do you know so what be these sort of
Sue (PS21K) [483] and what to expect and what
Diane (PS21R) [484] queries and barriers that you're, you're bringing out.
[485] It's going to be all so smooth because they've had three hour training.
Sue (PS21K) [486] But as soon they've had an appraisal then they will know what it involves.
Kevin (PS21N) [487] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [488] And because you're having the pre-appraisal thing
Diane (PS21R) [489] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [490] it's to set it all in context they understand before they come
Diane (PS21R) [491] That's right.
Bill (PS21L) [492] I mean that's like the, really the training isn't it?
[493] For them.
Diane (PS21R) [494] But surely if they got the yellow book and had, we sent them off in, in a room to actually read that book.
Sue (PS21K) [495] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [496] Three hours.
Sue (PS21K) [497] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [498] T No
Sue (PS21K) [499] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [500] but instead of try and fit it
Sue (PS21K) [501] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [502] while they're doing something
Sue (PS21K) [503] Yes.
Diane (PS21R) [504] else but give everybody an hour off
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [505] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [506] their rota to go and read the
Sue (PS21K) [507] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [508] book somewhere quiet.
[509] And as you saying a summary sheet and
Sue (PS21K) [510] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [511] a quick half hour's
Sue (PS21K) [512] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [513] any questions.
Sue (PS21K) [514] That should be enough.
Diane (PS21R) [515] Should be enough for anybody.
Sue (PS21K) [516] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [517] You see my, my point was I'd, I mean I kept saying to her, has this got to take place?
[518] And she kept saying, yes, and I kept saying, in every division?
[519] And she kept saying, yes.
[520] So whatever we, we'd said to her she was coming back all the time wasn't she?
[521] That this had got to take place.
[522] Cos only [...]
Cath (PS21P) [523] You mean she'll be gunning for me then?
Kevin (PS21N) [524] But because that I mean that b
Sue (PS21K) [525] [...] Harrogate.
[526] No she'll be gunning for everybody else because only Harrogate and Skipton [...]
Bill (PS21L) [527] But we can say also that the we're not new appraisals th we've been through the pilot
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [528] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [529] I mean
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [530] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [531] we can use
Sue (PS21K) [532] That's right.
Bill (PS21L) [533] that argument to
Cath (PS21P) [534] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [535] to support I think [whispering] for [...] [] .
[536] I'm just say
Cath (PS21P) [537] But was it only those two that had done it or was it
Diane (PS21R) [538] No Scarborough's not done it.
Cath (PS21P) [539] And who's [...]
Diane (PS21R) [540] Northallerton [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [541] Well I asked for those [...] [...]
Sue (PS21K) [542] I get there the impression that Northallerton spend half of their time in staff meetings so I'd be surprised
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [543] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [544] if they'd not done it.
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [545] We asked our employer, our employment officers' group yesterday
Sue (PS21K) [546] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [547] and Phyllis hadn't had the opportunity to discuss anything with
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [548] a lot of careers officers meetings then.
Cath (PS21P) [549] Oh right, well definitely not employment staff because they've not even managed to even [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [550] she's not even managed to show it anybody.
Kevin (PS21N) [551] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [552] Well that makes me feel a, a lot better.
Bill (PS21L) [553] Yeah it made me feel better actually because I had the same impression as [laughing] you [] .
[554] [laugh] Anyway.
Sue (PS21K) [555] Anyway.
[556] [laugh] When Bill and Kevin and I looked at how we could cope with appraisal in our division, the numbers didn't work out as badly at least as I thought they were going to originally.
[557] Erm the way that we see it is that I would appraise Kevin, Bill and Cath, initially and that, oh this is just York's isn't it?
[558] And that Bill appraise who are you going to appraise?
Bill (PS21L) [559] The careers offices, Sylvia and Diane here.
Sue (PS21K) [560] Right.
Bill (PS21L) [561] We actually said Rosy as well but Rosy lo probably have left Selby
Sue (PS21K) [562] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [563] by the time I get back to it.
Sue (PS21K) [564] Yes.
[565] Right.
Bill (PS21L) [566] And I did Charlotte eventually.
Cath (PS21P) [567] You could always do her first so that that doesn't
Sue (PS21K) [568] That's a good idea Cath.
Bill (PS21L) [569] Well [...]
Sue (PS21K) [570] Remember that.
Cath (PS21P) [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [571] I don't er I don't see any relevance in that because she's not, you
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [572] can't set targets for
Cath (PS21P) [573] No.
Bill (PS21L) [574] her that I'm
Sue (PS21K) [575] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [576] not going to be responsible for.
Cath (PS21P) [577] No, you're right.
Sue (PS21K) [578] But Bill's going to do Charlotte?
Bill (PS21L) [579] Yeah, when she's been here long enough.
Sue (PS21K) [580] Yes.
[581] But you don't do anybody until they've be here for six months.
Kevin (PS21N) [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [582] And you don't do any
Bill (PS21L) [583] Six [...] twelve
Kevin (PS21N) [584] She [...] down the other day didn't she? [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [585] No it's six months.
Bill (PS21L) [586] Alright.
Sue (PS21K) [587] And you don't
Cath (PS21P) [588] I wasn't here Kevin I missed it.
Sue (PS21K) [589] and you don't bring do anybody that's in er
Kevin (PS21N) [590] She's coming down next month. [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [591] [...] C G part two.
[592] So that eliminates a few people you see.
Cath (PS21P) [593] Or temporary contracts [...] .
Sue (PS21K) [594] Or temporary contracts yeah.
[595] Well that, that eliminates
Kevin (PS21N) [596] Not that [...] quite a few.
Sue (PS21K) [597] quite a lot at the moment but hopefully won't shortly.
[598] So when we went through it, Kevin was going to do all of the careers officers in York but didn't need to do Mary because she's part of the adult team and therefore Jane and Julie will have to sort her.
Kevin (PS21N) [599] Thank God for that.
Sue (PS21K) [600] Won't happen to j [laugh]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [601] Wouldn't have to do Norma because she's a probationer, wouldn't have to do Denise.
[602] Cos we don't know what her situation's going to be.
Kevin (PS21N) [603] Not really worth it is she? [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [604] And that if Cath did all of the clerical staff and then eventually Monique and Mary once they become in service long enough, oh they probably are already aren't they?
Cath (PS21P) [605] I think they are, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [606] Yeah.
[607] Well Mary and Monique.
[608] But that I, Kevin would stick with the careers officers cos it fits in very well with his team leader role with the careers offices in York.
[609] So that I wouldn't get involved with careers officers I'd actually make a jump and that I would do the three wise monkeys and Hilary.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [610] [laughing] The three wise monkeys [] .
Bill (PS21L) [611] They sit in a long line in York, yeah?
Sue (PS21K) [laughing] [...] []
Bill (PS21L) [612] We don't have to mention names. [laugh]
Cath (PS21P) [613] The one thing that
Diane (PS21R) [614] No you don't have to I've seen them.
Cath (PS21P) [615] does worry me and I don't think any provisions have been done for it and that is Isobel.
Sue (PS21K) [616] Right.
Cath (PS21P) [617] And I think it would be very useful for her to have an appraisal.
Kevin (PS21N) [618] Oh yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [619] I mean having great
Sue (PS21K) [620] Oh yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [621] difficulty in working out whether she's understanding what we've said now in the way of instructions until it comes back.
Bill (PS21L) [622] But you're down
Cath (PS21P) [623] S
Bill (PS21L) [624] to do her.
Sue (PS21K) [625] So what sort of provision do you mean Cath?
Cath (PS21P) [626] [...] taught her how to do.
[627] Write it down [...] we're supposed to do.
Kevin (PS21N) [628] Does she sign or not?
Cath (PS21P) [629] I'm not sure [...]
Sue (PS21K) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [630] Cos we could have somebody in to help that's all I'm thinking if she says yeah I'm sure you could get something from
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [631] Mm mm mm.
Cath (PS21P) [632] Well that's why I'm asking what do I do?
Kevin (PS21N) [633] social services.
Sue (PS21K) [634] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [635] But I don't think she is very good at signing, I don't think it's her main way of communicating.
Sue (PS21K) [636] She's quite good at lip reading.
Kevin (PS21N) [637] It'll just take you longer to do.
Sue (PS21K) [638] It's a it's, it's more you understanding
Cath (PS21P) [639] Because she I can't understand what she says to me.
Sue (PS21K) [640] No that's the trouble.
Cath (PS21P) [641] That's the embarrassing
Sue (PS21K) [642] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [643] thing.
[644] I can't understand a word.
Kevin (PS21N) [645] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [646] Well you see as part of the appraisal thing, if you get w w when we've done it so far we've got people to actually, and I did myself, one of the stages after the preliminary meeting is to complete a self assessment, or to go through some self assess assessments, self appraisal.
[647] Now certainly when I did it, I wrote some notes which I then talked through with Alan, Kevin wrote some notes which he then talked through with me.
[648] Now obviously if Isobel did that, she could write some notes in a form that was actually readable for you so that you could actually I mean I know the discussion would be more difficult ... but you would have quite a lot of information from her to go on.
Kevin (PS21N) [649] I wonder whether it might be useful to get somebody in from social services side anyway to help to identify some other problems that I'm having
Sue (PS21K) [650] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [651] perhaps and how you might overcome them.
Cath (PS21P) [652] I think, I think she will probably have an aw she's a very bright girl, I'm sure she'd have an awful lot to contribute.
Sue (PS21K) [653] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [654] Yeah.
[655] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [656] So but that might be one of the things that you need to look at I mean once sh she may have dif because of the difficulties in communicating with other staff and
Cath (PS21P) [657] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [658] yourself.
[659] That might be a target to overcome.
Cath (PS21P) [660] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [661] And social services will be able to advise on that.
Sue (PS21K) [662] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [663] I mean there must
Cath (PS21P) [664] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [665] be a social worker for the hearing impaired.
[666] Jackie should be able to recommend somebody
Cath (PS21P) [667] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [668] erm that that could come up, come along to that meeting, with Isobel's agreement.
[669] Erm
Bill (PS21L) [670] Or even to talk to Isobel specifically abo about that and h how to approach
Kevin (PS21N) [671] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [672] something like this
Sue (PS21K) [673] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [674] so that
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [675] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [676] they, you know, they could talk together perhaps, having been briefed beforehand and then maybe work out how to approach appraisal interview.
Kevin (PS21N) [677] I mean it's an issue that needs to be looked at anyway isn't it?
[678] Regardless of appraisal.
Cath (PS21P) [679] Yeah yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [680] With anything yes. [...]
Bill (PS21L) [681] Cos then the spin-offs, you know if we can get her to be able to communicate back to us
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [682] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [683] it's great.
[684] Erm
Sue (PS21K) [685] It's certainly, the appraisal interview is a good opportunity to, to address the issue of because communication is difficult
Cath (PS21P) [686] Mm [...] she's not
Sue (PS21K) [687] she's being under-utilized in a sense.
Cath (PS21P) [688] Yeah mm.
[689] It's not pulling it out just out of thin air
Sue (PS21K) [690] That's right.
Cath (PS21P) [691] it, it's
Sue (PS21K) [692] Yeah,
Cath (PS21P) [693] I mean contacts
Kevin (PS21N) [694] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [695] Yeah.
[696] I mean I, I, I think maybe Cath if we sit down and, and talk that through beforehand.
[697] I mean I'm obviously happy to sit down and talk through any of it beforehand anyway with you.
[698] Erm and you might want to do that formally, you might a if you have pre-meetings with some of these people you might want to say that you are going to sit down and talk it through with me in advance ar and are they happy about that?
[699] But I mean it, we can talk things through in principle anyway just to think because you know until we build up
Cath (PS21P) [700] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [701] more experience.
[702] But ... I you know hopeful I know that th th th quite a large and high numbers but what we agreed was if we were working on the basis of something like on one person every six weeks
Cath (PS21P) [703] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [704] which wasn't an unreasonable sort of target, erm we would get through everybody we had to get through in a year.
[705] Other than the issue of Isobel ... are you unhappy with that? ...
Cath (PS21P) [706] No, I don't want to do it but I mean I'm not ... I'm certainly happier than I have been about it if
Sue (PS21K) [707] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [708] that's any help.
[709] I just want some help with these, writing these forms and target setting.
Sue (PS21K) [710] Yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [711] It's easier once you've been done.
[712] Actually it's easier once you've been done cos then you have an appreciation of what's to [...]
Cath (PS21P) [713] Well I think you know [...]
Sue (PS21K) [714] Yes I think you'll feel a bit better once we've done you
Cath (PS21P) [715] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [716] really.
Bill (PS21L) [717] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [718] Yeah I think [...]
Sue (PS21K) [719] Because
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [720] I, I didn't really
Cath (PS21P) [721] The [...] thing's I've had two attempts at me and I've never had any feedback whatsoever.
[722] All I did was spend my time tell telling them how they could do their job better.
Bill (PS21L) [723] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [724] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [725] You know so I mean so I've never had a, it's been a bad experience for me, not a good one.
Sue (PS21K) [726] Oh God, [laughing] I can't cope with the pressure [] .
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [laugh]
Sylvia (PS21M) [727] And as far as [...] in the appraisals I mean I found when I did the three s part staff and, and I was, it was that pilot and, and I know
Sue (PS21K) [728] Mm.
Sylvia (PS21M) [729] and I don't, don't know whether the forms were, I don't think they were quite as complicated as, as these but I found that
Sue (PS21K) [730] I've got a [...] if you want to borrow [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [731] Well I've got copies of them all.
Kevin (PS21N) [732] It's easier now to be honest.
Sylvia (PS21M) [733] Yeah I mean I felt once I got going, it just seemed to flow naturally.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [734] Mm.
Sylvia (PS21M) [735] And, and it was, and even deciding on where the training needs were and writing them down and, and setting targets it, I don't know it just seemed to happen, erm [...] difficult at all.
Kevin (PS21N) [736] The form [...] complete is much easier than the the
Sylvia (PS21M) [737] Is it?
Kevin (PS21N) [738] form you had to, that you had to
Sylvia (PS21M) [739] Oh right.
Kevin (PS21N) [740] last time.
Sue (PS21K) [741] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [742] As
Sylvia (PS21M) [743] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [744] an individual you
Bill (PS21L) [745] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [746] know what your needs are.
Sue (PS21K) [747] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [748] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [749] It's much more clearer
Sue (PS21K) [750] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [751] than the previous
Sue (PS21K) [752] Yeah.
Sylvia (PS21M) [753] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [754] one.
Bill (PS21L) [755] Mm.
[756] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [757] I think the other thing is it's very much an appraisal of the working relationship between the appraiser and the appraisee the way we're doing it.
[758] It's not entirely focused on the appraisee, you know cos I think
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [759] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [760] you're talking as much a about y it's reflecting on you as the line manager, how much are you communicating with this
Sylvia (PS21M) [761] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [762] person,
Cath (PS21P) [763] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [764] what are you actually
Cath (PS21P) [765] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [766] failing to do that's making this person's job more difficult.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [767] Mhm.
Sue (PS21K) [768] Should you be giving them more support?
[769] Should you be recognizing this need or this skill or this strength or whatever that you're
Sylvia (PS21M) [770] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [771] not.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [772] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [773] And it's very much a two way thing.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [774] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [775] In fact in some ways I feel I almost got more out of appraising Kevin and Bill than I did out of Alan appraising
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [776] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [777] me.
[778] [laughing] And I almost sort of
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [779] Mm mm.
Sue (PS21K) [780] [laughing] [...] you know it i it's []
Kevin (PS21N) [781] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [782] [laughing] so two-way. []
Cath (PS21P) [783] Yeah, yes.
Bill (PS21L) [784] It's a lovely way of understanding how are, your staff are feeling and getting on.
Sue (PS21K) [785] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [786] Yeah
Bill (PS21L) [787] You know communication
Diane (PS21R) [788] Right.
Bill (PS21L) [789] wise,
Sue (PS21K) [790] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [791] at the end of it I, you know I felt mm well wh when I did the C Os and the pilot
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [792] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [793] I felt as though I understood their picture.
Sue (PS21K) [794] And you do talk about things that you don't normally.
Cath (PS21P) [795] C Os are probably more likely to open up and talk aren't they?
[796] Than
Bill (PS21L) [797] Yeah.
[798] But even so
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [799] even a bit of opening up
Cath (PS21P) [800] [...] and people like that.
Bill (PS21L) [801] Yeah, but even a bit
Sue (PS21K) [802] You see you're going to have all the extracting later on.
[803] Don't say it's a bad thing [...]
Sylvia (PS21M) [804] Yeah but [...]
Bill (PS21L) [805] Some people like to talk.
Sylvia (PS21M) [806] If he said that
Sue (PS21K) [807] Careers officers have verbal diarrhoea don't they, [...] the other extreme aren't they?
[808] Let's be fair.
Bill (PS21L) [809] Yeah but if, it's a structured discussion because they've
Sue (PS21K) [810] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [811] done
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [812] Yes.
Bill (PS21L) [813] some preparation.
[814] So it's what they want to talk about anyway
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [815] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [816] If it
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [817] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [818] doesn't, if it [...] last half an hour [...]
Cath (PS21P) [819] They're not coming into it cold.
Sue (PS21K) [820] This is, this is where Deborah will then go back, this is, comes into your three hour training so you won't have this problem cos they'll all have been, they'll all know that they're just talking about certain things.
Sylvia (PS21M) [821] But they will because that's what you'll have [...] agreed in your preparation meeting.
Kevin (PS21N) [822] You've got to prepare yeah you've got to prepare.
Bill (PS21L) [823] The pre-meeting I think is really quite important.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [824] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [825] Yeah, you know.
Cath (PS21P) [826] But we almost got down to saying the other day that probably need to have an action plan or a structure for the pre-meeting as well.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [827] You've go to know in your mind what you're going to talk about.
[828] I think
Cath (PS21P) [829] Yeah that's more or less what she was
Diane (PS21R) [830] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [831] saying.
[832] The mental picture
Sylvia (PS21M) [833] But once we've been through, once we've had our pre-meeting,
Bill (PS21L) [834] Mm.
Sylvia (PS21M) [835] it'll take all the mystery out of it.
Bill (PS21L) [836] Actually it will.
[837] I, I mean
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [838] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [839] th
Sylvia (PS21M) [840] Ten minutes is all it takes.
Bill (PS21L) [841] you'd be surprised.
[842] You can just
Cath (PS21P) [843] That, that was one of the pitfalls she was saying wasn't it?
[844] That if you don't talk frequently to your staff on an informal basis, then there will be a mystery regarding appraisal.
Sue (PS21K) [845] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [846] Because it it seems as if it's a mystery.
Sue (PS21K) [847] And Deborah does talk frequently to [...]
Cath (PS21P) [848] W
Sue (PS21K) [849] regulations does she?
Cath (PS21P) [850] She was [...] training Sue that said one of the pitfalls
Bill (PS21L) [851] Disciplines
Cath (PS21P) [852] was infrequent er informal discussions with your er
Sue (PS21K) [853] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [854] with your staff so
Bill (PS21L) [855] She just delegates the whole lot.
Sue (PS21K) [856] I just, I talk to, often to some of them and not enough to [laughing] others. []
Cath (PS21P) [857] To others.
Sue (PS21K) [858] [laughing] And I don't control that [] . [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [laughing] [...] []
Sue (PS21K) [859] [laughing] [...] never darken my door [...] [] .
[860] Oh.
Bill (PS21L) [861] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [862] Mentioning no names.
Bill (PS21L) [863] I mean we have no choice really, some of these things have to happen, you know it has to be done, [...]
Cath (PS21P) [864] Well that's, I mean that's what it boils down to.
Sue (PS21K) [865] That's right.
Bill (PS21L) [866] is going to happen, it's a question of whether we g go for three hours' training we I think we're agreeing that some sort of preliminary training is going to come forward but not necessary three hours.
Sue (PS21K) [867] Yeah. [...]
Cath (PS21P) [868] I don't see how they can definitely say anyway, this is going to take
Bill (PS21L) [869] No.
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [870] [...] guarantee lack of training [...] [...]
Sue (PS21K) [871] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [872] Exactly.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [873] I feel that people like Josie
Bill (PS21L) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [874] you know
Cath (PS21P) [875] [...] think they're quite easy [...] what you want
Sue (PS21K) [876] Yes yes.
Cath (PS21P) [877] but I'm just saying.
Sue (PS21K) [878] And if it ends up being a fairly low key thing i it doesn't matter.
[879] With other people
Cath (PS21P) [880] No.
Sue (PS21K) [881] it'll be
Bill (PS21L) [882] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [883] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [884] I me [...] going to be a significant event, well it
Cath (PS21P) [885] [...] extremes while
Bill (PS21L) [886] That's right.
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [887] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [888] whoever I mean it's going to be a day's job isn't it?
[889] Mavis?
Kevin (PS21N) [890] If she comes with notes like that.
Cath (PS21P) [891] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [892] Well if I don't talk them all through five times there's something wrong.
Cath (PS21P) [893] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [894] But if you're int limited to only three subjects surely she
Kevin (PS21N) [895] No she ain't no there's no, there's no way Mavis'll just talk about three subjects.
Diane (PS21R) [896] No.
Sylvia (PS21M) [897] That's negotia
Cath (PS21P) [898] I, I thought you were supposed to.
Sue (PS21K) [899] No.
[900] Not at all it's negotiable.
Kevin (PS21N) [901] That's negotiable, [...] talk about what
Diane (PS21R) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [902] It's true actually, yeah.
[903] I think you, I think what it's [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [904] It's just that most people have got m quite a lot so it's a limiting factor.
Cath (PS21P) [905] So you want to limit it.
Bill (PS21L) [906] I think you need to set a time actually.
Sue (PS21K) [907] The targets have been limited to three Cath, around three.
Cath (PS21P) [908] Three or four.
Kevin (PS21N) [909] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [910] Three or four.
Diane (PS21R) [...]
Bill (PS21L) [911] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [912] thought that the work areas were s to, supposed to limit them because when you do the ... one next year in a year's time then you bring on board two more topics
Sue (PS21K) [913] Other areas.
Diane (PS21R) [914] and then the year after that two more topics.
Kevin (PS21N) [915] Well that's going to depend on
Sue (PS21K) [916] Is
Kevin (PS21N) [917] a person's duties isn't it?
Cath (PS21P) [918] Is that, yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [919] I mean if, if, if Josie's main role is [...] is, is, is
Cath (PS21P) [920] [...] say that then [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [921] wordprocessing and, and, and typing, alright?
Diane (PS21R) [922] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [923] [...] says it's target.
Sue (PS21K) [...] [laugh]
Kevin (PS21N) [924] Then, then really that, that's an area that you've got to concentrate on cos,
Cath (PS21P) [925] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [926] okay she's got some time on reception as relief but the majority of work is n is not that varied is it?
Cath (PS21P) [927] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [928] Is it?
Cath (PS21P) [929] I would say that [...] on reception is the one that probably needs more support [...] let her down all the rest of it.
Sue (PS21K) [930] Yeah in which case, in which case that's your, one of your motivations in talking to her.
Cath (PS21P) [931] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [932] Say you'll actually negotiate that in, in the erm preliminary meeting
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [933] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [934] and you sort of say, do you think it would be useful if we talked about reception because that's something y you're not doing quite as frequently but it's obviously, it must be difficult for you to fit in to that because you're not doing it all the time.
[935] Do you think it would be useful if we talked about that?
[936] And to be honest
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [937] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [938] if she doesn't want to talk about that then you
Cath (PS21P) [939] Yes I think she would do.
Sue (PS21K) [940] you know I think she would do.
[941] But that's the sort of negotiation
Diane (PS21R) [942] I think she has to be one of the easiest ones to do, [...]
Sue (PS21K) [943] I mean like with Kevin and Bill, we negotiated but even that we wouldn't talk about their professional work as a careers officer
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [944] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [945] because that's really in a you know was far less appropriate.
Cath (PS21P) [946] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [947] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [948] We actually talked about the difficulties that it causes
Cath (PS21P) [949] Combining them both.
Sue (PS21K) [950] of combining the two things.
Cath (PS21P) [951] Mm, mm.
Sue (PS21K) [952] But we actually talked about things at an appropriate level.
[953] Now with careers officers obviously that'll sort of come into it
Kevin (PS21N) [954] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [955] more.
Kevin (PS21N) [956] I found it invaluable last time I was doing i b you know if, if you say to somebody y you know come beforehand with what you're doing well, what, where the difficulties are, what the obstacles are.
[957] And they came and [...] you know I find it difficult here, here and here.
[958] I mean that was really valuable to understand that, cos Ian thought oh yeah that's something that we really have to address you know
Sue (PS21K) [959] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [960] because if someone else says that and then all of a sudden I didn't know this and now I know it.
[961] A y y it's really I,
Sue (PS21K) [962] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [963] I felt I got a lot out of it.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [964] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [965] Even though initially I thought, cor all this time where are we going to find it from?
Sue (PS21K) [966] That's the two way
Cath (PS21P) [967] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [968] thing you see
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [969] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [970] I would a the difficulty is the perception of the person that Kevin appraised would be, well I told Kevin about this and, and nothing's happened.
[971] [knocking] But in fact
Kevin (PS21N) [972] Come in.
Sue (PS21K) [973] Kevin's perception has been increased and he
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [974] and he does have a better understanding of that person's role, even though
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...] [door closing]
Sue (PS21K) [975] it might not be blatantly obvious to them that there, there's been an improvement in communications.
Kevin (PS21N) [976] I know it's what happens next, afterwards.
Sue (PS21K) [977] It's difficulty
Kevin (PS21N) [978] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [979] difficulty in getting back.
[980] But the good thing about follow-up is these targets [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [cough]
Sue (PS21K) [981] something very tangible
Cath (PS21P) [982] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [983] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [984] to follow up on.
[985] I mean I know in about four months' time I've got a meeting in my diary with Alan.
[986] That we're reviewing what progress I've made in the targets that I've set myself.
Kevin (PS21N) [987] That's good, that's good.
Cath (PS21P) [988] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [989] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [990] And I've not looked at them since I wrote them.
Kevin (PS21N) [991] But you know that you have to, you know you can't just
Sue (PS21K) [992] But I know I've got to.
Kevin (PS21N) [993] ignore it and that you have to work on it and you have to
Sue (PS21K) [994] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [995] sort of really go along with the process.
[996] Which is good.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [997] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [998] So what sort of targets do you see yourself setting? ...
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [999] I don't know I mean what wh
Kevin (PS21N) [...] [laugh]
Sue (PS21K) [1000] We didn't really
Cath (PS21P) [1001] What, what are we talking about?
[1002] Increasing the amount of interview you get through in a day?
[1003] I mean what
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [1004] No, certain obstacles and areas where you feel you're not er giving, you know you don't feel as though you're doing it the best for whatever reason.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1005] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1006] You may set that as a target to try and work at it this way to overcome that or to do it better.
Diane (PS21R) [1007] Yes, say if you're looking at an E O that feels that they're really happy with the client group, and things like that that's fine.
[1008] But for some reason they feel that they're not as hot on employer work or something like that, so one of the targets might be to get them more used to dealing with employers is to go out and see more, and to set time
Sue (PS21K) [1009] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1010] aside
Sue (PS21K) [1011] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1012] for them to be able to that.
[1013] So a lot of, a lot of the problems with some of the areas of the work is because you do it so infrequent it's not that you can't do it, it's that you feel
Sue (PS21K) [1014] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1015] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1016] incapable of doing it
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1017] Mm mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1018] it's this fear, insecurity when you
Cath (PS21P) [1019] [...] when have to do it, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1020] when you have to do it.
Kevin (PS21N) [1021] Right, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1022] So one of the ways to overcome that is to set yourself a target to do more
Kevin (PS21N) [1023] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1024] so that you become more
Sue (PS21K) [1025] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1026] familiar with it.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1027] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1028] There's other that's right
Diane (PS21R) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1029] there's other things you can do though, like for example, I mean once you've identified
Diane (PS21R) [1030] Training.
Sue (PS21K) [1031] the target, yes it's, if any training comes up to do with work with employers, you as a line manager know that's your person that's got to
Diane (PS21R) [1032] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1033] get on that training.
Diane (PS21R) [1034] That's the one.
[1035] That's the prioritized
Sue (PS21K) [1036] Yes.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [1037] Cos you have to negotiate [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1038] But also an another target would be to identify, let's say a careers officer or a more experienced E O.
[1039] Or just a colleague it doesn't have to be someone that's m just
Kevin (PS21N) [1040] They may say
Sue (PS21K) [1041] someone that's more confident to go arrange
Cath (PS21P) [1042] Arrange
Sue (PS21K) [1043] to go out on an employer visit
Bill (PS21L) [1044] Mm mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1045] with them during the next two
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1046] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1047] months.
Diane (PS21R) [1048] I see you see the way that they have
Sue (PS21K) [1049] And that you know
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Diane (PS21R) [1050] fulfil a target, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1051] Yeah you're building steps towards actually meeting the need that you've identified.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1052] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1053] I mean my targets were, I can only remember two of them offhand.
[1054] I'll perhaps remember the third one as I talk.
[1055] One of them was to tackle the staff meeting problem in York.
[1056] Erm and that you know I wrote to, I, I discussed that with Alan as a problem but then I took it away with the pro forma that says and you, now the target pro forma 's got columns you've got to fill in and I
Cath (PS21P) [1057] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1058] just, I thought
Diane (PS21R) [1059] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1060] it through myself.
[1061] Then I met up with Alan and, and he read though it and challenged me on a few things and we changed one or two bits, but I've got my sort of target set out.
[1062] And the other one was to strengthen the divisional management team.
[1063] And by that I was looking at er things like discussing with Alan that I felt we were un under, had, had less management time than we should.
[1064] So I've already begun to fulfil some
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1065] of those things And, and
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1066] write down on the target sheet.
Sue (PS21K) [1067] Wh it must have been hard?
Cath (PS21P) [1068] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1069] I didn't find it particularly hard actually.
Cath (PS21P) [1070] So how can you in you know to increase [...] .
[1071] The only way you can do it is by pleading.
[1072] So why do you fill in all the rest of them silly columns in?
Sue (PS21K) [1073] No no it isn't the only way you can do it.
[1074] It's, it's by actually looking at, well I, in Bill and Kevin's appraisal I actually tackled it through their appraisal because we discussed, in quite a lot of depth, erm what their workload and ways in which they could change their workload
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1075] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1076] to enable them to have more management time, like we're looking at trying to get them to reduce their work their case loads
Cath (PS21P) [1077] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1078] school case load work.
Diane (PS21R) [1079] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1080] With, with both of you we talked a lot about delegation and things that you were doing that maybe you shouldn't be doing, erm
Kevin (PS21N) [1081] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1082] Yeah I think I've just got a mental block about writing them.
Sue (PS21K) [1083] It certainly doesn't come easy until you've got a bit of practice in it but
Kevin (PS21N) [1084] Have yours
Sue (PS21K) [1085] I didn't find it as hard as I thought.
Kevin (PS21N) [1086] have this discussion after you've had
Cath (PS21P) [1087] Yeah yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1088] yours
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1089] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1090] and then if your st
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1091] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1092] you'll find that quite a lot of what you're saying is then seen
Cath (PS21P) [1093] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1094] and you can see that
Cath (PS21P) [1095] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1096] it's not a major problem.
Cath (PS21P) [1097] I mean [...] was quite keen
Sue (PS21K) [1098] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1099] you say that she wouldn't, she certainly wouldn't mind doing a follow-up document and
Sue (PS21K) [1100] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1101] and target setting?
Sue (PS21K) [1102] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1103] Yes she did and I think that would be quite useful for people.
Sue (PS21K) [1104] I think a lot of it's fear of the unknown though until you've done it, yeah.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1105] Exactly,
Sue (PS21K) [1106] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1107] It is.
Cath (PS21P) [1108] exactly
Sue (PS21K) [1109] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1110] it's fear of the unknown.
Kevin (PS21N) [1111] Once you've done about five you'll be alright. [laugh]
Cath (PS21P) [1112] And it's fear of the [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [laugh]
Cath (PS21P) [1113] of the thing as well isn't it?
Diane (PS21R) [1114] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1115] I think that's the other thing I mean
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1116] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1117] we we're easy enough to say, right let's [...] well we just don't get
Diane (PS21R) [1118] I i it [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1119] the time.
Sue (PS21K) [1120] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1121] If you're gonna
Cath (PS21P) [1122] Well you've got to withdraw that time, you've
Sue (PS21K) [1123] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1124] gotta make sure it happens haven't
Sue (PS21K) [1125] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1126] you?
Diane (PS21R) [1127] If you've got to do this you've got
Kevin (PS21N) [1128] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1129] to do it right otherwise it's
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1130] Well that's right, that's right.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1131] I'm gonna have to do it
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1132] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1133] I'm gonna have to do it.
Sue (PS21K) [1134] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1135] It, it
Kevin (PS21N) [1136] [yawning] Yeah [] .
Diane (PS21R) [1137] it may be one of the ways th that [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [yawning] [...] []
Diane (PS21R) [1138] to get together and communicate that because it's set down as target you've got to do it so you will, you will set the time aside where it's easy enough to
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1139] Mhm.
Diane (PS21R) [1140] say, oh well we'll do it a week on Friday and that week on Friday never comes.
Sue (PS21K) [1141] [laugh] You, you can set as your tar as one of your targets to er you know just t t to sort of make it in smaller steps that you will have appraised two of your staff in th in
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1142] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1143] the next six
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1144] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1145] months.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1146] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1147] And you you know you could almost use the appraisal as an, as an area that you wanted to concentrate
Kevin (PS21N) [1148] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1149] Yeah.
[1150] It's not, it's not me it's the ones that you're seeing that are [...] target setting for.
Sue (PS21K) [1151] Yeah.
[1152] You feeling happy enough with the target setting to get acro
Diane (PS21R) [1153] Yes, [...] .
Sue (PS21K) [1154] Yes.
[1155] I think that's a good point actually and that maybe target setting is sort of a training that we ought to do with all staff, I mean and I don't know how much of that comes into this magic three hours.
[1156] You know if part of that was target
Cath (PS21P) [1157] Exactly.
Sue (PS21K) [1158] relating [...]
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1159] Well it was.
Diane (PS21R) [1160] [...] yeah it was actually,
Cath (PS21P) [1161] Was it?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1162] W was, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1163] It was b practising being an appraisee and an appraiser.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1164] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1165] And setting each
Diane (PS21R) [1166] Er an
Cath (PS21P) [1167] other targets [...] .
Diane (PS21R) [1168] Targets.
Sue (PS21K) [1169] I don't remember doing much of that on the day thing.
Cath (PS21P) [1170] Well we did didn't we cos sat 'em
Diane (PS21R) [1171] Yeah [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1172] all.
Diane (PS21R) [1173] Ah yes you did cos I was with the, actually mine was quite a good
Kevin (PS21N) [1174] Oh yes.
Diane (PS21R) [1175] group I got
Sue (PS21K) [1176] This is [laughing] [...] []
Diane (PS21R) [1177] er Teresa and Liz were the three of us that were [...] .
Cath (PS21P) [1178] Obviously we didn't, he can get a third when we can only get, when there were only two of us because there weren't enough, enough threes to go round and I mean [...]
Diane (PS21R) [1179] Yeah So I must admit
Sue (PS21K) [1180] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1181] I must admit that was quite good cos she'd got Liz who was
Sue (PS21K) [1182] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1183] e she was used to putting ideas forward as well.
[1184] I think Teresa felt very much as well that she could have done with more training on target setting and things like that.
[1185] It, it depends on what you've done before as well.
Sue (PS21K) [1186] This smart thing is really useful for target setting, to bear that
Diane (PS21R) [1187] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [1188] in mind.
Cath (PS21P) [1189] Yeah, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1190] And you know you go back over what you've written and say, is it specific?
Cath (PS21P) [1191] Can [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1192] How can I measure it?
[1193] Is it really you know realistic?
[1194] Can I actually
Cath (PS21P) [1195] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1196] achieve it?
Kevin (PS21N) [1197] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1198] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1199] Is it actually gonna help me do my job better?
Diane (PS21R) [1200] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1201] And have I put a timescale on it?
[1202] And if you've done all of those things
Diane (PS21R) [1203] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1204] then you've got a really good target.
Cath (PS21P) [1205] Yeah cos if it's not achievable it's pointless setting it
Sue (PS21K) [1206] That's right.
Cath (PS21P) [1207] in the first place isn't it?
Bill (PS21L) [1208] Yeah if any of those things fall down you know that [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1209] That's right.
Bill (PS21L) [1210] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1211] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1212] Yeah, that's, that's a very, yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1213] I think that's really the key
Cath (PS21P) [1214] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1215] to, to target
Bill (PS21L) [1216] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1217] setting.
[1218] And at least you've got the questions.
[1219] What, what do I need to do?
[1220] And who, who can help me?
[1221] How will I know when I've done it?
[1222] How long will I allow myself to achieve it?
[1223] Who ne who else needs to know about it?
[1224] They're the sort of things that you've got to know.
Bill (PS21L) [1225] [...] answer those questions
Cath (PS21P) [1226] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1227] as you put the target forward, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1228] Another thing that did come up at that training day the other day was that we all need a, a, a, anybody that's going to do any sort of appraising will need to know what the erm training programme is
Sue (PS21K) [1229] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1230] for next year cos if somebody asks for a specific training
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1231] Mm right.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1232] Mm mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1233] you say oh yes you can have it and then you look on the training and it's not there
Bill (PS21L) [1234] I know no
Sue (PS21K) [1235] I know that's, yeah that's right
Diane (PS21R) [1236] er then that's a problem.
Kevin (PS21N) [1237] I had that problem last time.
Sue (PS21K) [1238] It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing really.
Kevin (PS21N) [1239] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1240] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1241] Because we had a long discussion about training needs, audits and all this sort of thing.
[1242] Whe whether Alan should write out and ask everybody and we said, oh no people have done that ad nauseam and they'll only write back and say, well I've done this before and you've still never listened to me.
Cath (PS21P) [1243] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1244] And we thought we knew enough about, at the moment there are still a lot of needs that people had already raised that had not been addressed.
[1245] So once Alan gets his er I
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1246] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1247] think after our meeting next Friday he'll, he will issue a dr a programme
Cath (PS21P) [1248] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1249] so people will have that by the time you get
Cath (PS21P) [1250] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1251] round to doing individual
Diane (PS21R) [1252] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1253] staff.
Diane (PS21R) [1254] You've got to look at the other positive thing as well though that if it comes out as a target and there are specific training needs there throughout the
Sue (PS21K) [1255] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1256] county.
[1257] You know say if you've got a number of E O saying well I would like training in this
Sue (PS21K) [1258] Yes.
Diane (PS21R) [1259] even if you have to say to them, well I'm
Sue (PS21K) [1260] That's right.
Diane (PS21R) [1261] sorry it's not available at the moment.
[1262] It's highlighting what everybody is
Sue (PS21K) [1263] I think what Alan will
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1264] probably do, that's right [...] I think probably
Bill (PS21L) [1265] Yes.
[1266] Yeah.
[1267] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1268] in about six months' time
Bill (PS21L) [1269] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [1270] what Alan intends to do is write to all line managers and ask them to go back and review their appraisal erm documents for every member of staff they've appraised.
[1271] Erm and write a summary of all of the training
Diane (PS21R) [1272] [...] training needs.
Sue (PS21K) [1273] needs that have
Bill (PS21L) [1274] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1275] cropped
Diane (PS21R) [1276] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1277] up.
Cath (PS21P) [1278] Because even if somebody said I would like that training if it's not available you can't just turn around and say well tough it's not available you can't
Sue (PS21K) [1279] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1280] have it.
Kevin (PS21N) [1281] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1282] You've got to note that this training, you would like this training
Sue (PS21K) [1283] That's right.
Diane (PS21R) [1284] unfortunately it's not available at the present time.
Bill (PS21L) [1285] At the moment.
[1286] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1287] But
Sue (PS21K) [1288] Well that's what I did wasn't it?
[1289] When, when I did those
Diane (PS21R) [1290] Yes.
Sue (PS21K) [1291] appraisals last year.
Diane (PS21R) [1292] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1293] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1294] We still didn't get, yes
Sue (PS21K) [1295] [...] said I, I will put forward
Diane (PS21R) [1296] Yes and
Sue (PS21K) [1297] but
Diane (PS21R) [1298] we still didn't get it.
[1299] But yes you di you did put it forward.
Sue (PS21K) [1300] No that's right I
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...] [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1301] I think, I think the other thing is that if there is a need that's, that's quite common erm you know talking amongst ourselves, I think sometimes we're gonna have t just do more within the division, you know I, I,
Cath (PS21P) [1302] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1303] A
Sue (PS21K) [1304] something I've realized recently is that because I've sort of, in a sense the C S M T side of things that I, because that's a big area for me, I tend to think county wide about everything
Diane (PS21R) [1305] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1306] that I do.
Diane (PS21R) [1307] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1308] and I think that's right but it means that things are more difficult to achieve in a lot of ways.
[1309] I think I ought to start thinking, well never mind if everywhere else isn't doing it.
[1310] Let's
Diane (PS21R) [1311] Yeah just
Sue (PS21K) [1312] get it right ourselves
Diane (PS21R) [1313] here
Sue (PS21K) [1314] first.
Cath (PS21P) [1315] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1316] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1317] And I think you know that, that if th that we have got the skills between us to actually tackle some issues locally
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1318] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1319] [laughing] as long as we can get the staff together to do it [] .
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1320] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1321] And that we can try and meet some training needs locally.
Cath (PS21P) [1322] Oh I'm sure we could.
Sue (PS21K) [1323] And particularly things like linking people up with other members of staff.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1324] Mhm.
Sue (PS21K) [1325] You know getting employment officers to go on a visit with each other or with careers officers or whatever.
[1326] And meeting training needs on an individual basis.
Diane (PS21R) [1327] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1328] Rather than having to get people together in a
Cath (PS21P) [1329] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1330] central venue every time
Cath (PS21P) [1331] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1332] and seeing training only in that light really.
Cath (PS21P) [1333] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1334] A thing that I've heard from a few directions recently is erm the thought of work shadowing.
Sue (PS21K) [1335] Yes.
Diane (PS21R) [1336] Actually going along with a careers officer
Sue (PS21K) [1337] Yeah
Diane (PS21R) [1338] for a whole day and the careers officer
Sue (PS21K) [1339] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1340] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1341] a whole day [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1342] That's part of Alan's new induction programme.
Bill (PS21L) [1343] That's quite a nice idea isn't, yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1344] Yeah [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1345] [...] you know try for a better underst total understanding of
Sue (PS21K) [1346] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1347] of each of us needs [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1348] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1349] Yes.
Kevin (PS21N) [1350] Yeah that's nice, I like that.
Diane (PS21R) [1351] I, I think, I think that one of the major
Cath (PS21P) [1352] [...] employment office because
Kevin (PS21N) [1353] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1354] they feel that C Os don't, don't understand them and they're probably
Sue (PS21K) [1355] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1356] I think that
Cath (PS21P) [1357] Won't admit it but they probably don't know all [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1358] [...] mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1359] that there is to know about [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1360] There's a lot more mystery about what the careers officers do cos they don't do it in front of the noses of the employment officers
Cath (PS21P) [1361] I, I think that's
Diane (PS21R) [1362] But that's a good, it's a form of training that should
Sue (PS21K) [1363] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1364] be easy to organize.
Sue (PS21K) [1365] That's right.
Diane (PS21R) [1366] Yeah, yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1367] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1368] And I said this the other day that's
Sue (PS21K) [1369] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1370] one of the major problems, people don't understand the other person's role.
Sue (PS21K) [1371] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1372] So they don't say you know it, it's like in York you'll have it worse than somewhere like here cos we can see the careers officers running around
Sue (PS21K) [1373] Mhm.
Bill (PS21L) [1374] Yes that's right.
Diane (PS21R) [1375] so we'll say, so we'll say to them do you want a hand, and they will also see
Cath (PS21P) [1376] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1377] The C Os may actually be working for a week or two and never see an E O.
Cath (PS21P) [1378] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1379] But they can, they can
Cath (PS21P) [1380] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1381] also see that sometimes, even if we wanted to help them
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1382] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1383] i the
Sue (PS21K) [1384] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1385] logistics of it are just
Sue (PS21K) [1386] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1387] impossible.
Sue (PS21K) [1388] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1389] Whereas you don't have that, you'll probably have the careers officers walking in when your E Os are having a cup of coffee and they think, [whispering] well they do sod all [] .
Sue (PS21K) [1390] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1391] And then you'll walk into the careers officers when they come in from school and they go, ah
Sue (PS21K) [1392] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1393] and the E Os walk in and they think,
Kevin (PS21N) [1394] [laughing] That's right [] .
Diane (PS21R) [1395] [whispering] they do sod all [] .
Sue (PS21K) [1396] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1397] So you've got this thing
Kevin (PS21N) [1398] It's true [...] .
Diane (PS21R) [1399] that nobody understands what the other person's role is
Sue (PS21K) [1400] Absolutely Yeah yeah.
[1401] [someone knocking] Come in
Diane (PS21R) [1402] And that, that's the most awkward [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1403] Yeah [...]
Bill (PS21L) [1404] Trouble is once you
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [laugh]
Bill (PS21L) [1405] And when you're very busy
Sue (PS21K) [1406] Don't worry.
Bill (PS21L) [1407] and you, it's quite easy to switch your mind on [moan] you know
Cath (PS21P) [1408] [...] would it become insular to your own needs Kevin don't you?
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1409] Yeah [...]
Bill (PS21L) [1410] Either, either, either [...] sort of feel that the other is not as busy as they are.
Cath (PS21P) [1411] Exactly.
Sue (PS21K) [1412] I've
Bill (PS21L) [1413] And it's
Sue (PS21K) [1414] The last student we had in er in York
Bill (PS21L) [1415] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1416] I had difficulty in fitting in
Bill (PS21L) [1417] Alison.
Sue (PS21K) [1418] any time to talk to her.
Bill (PS21L) [1419] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1420] And she ended up spending, it was the best part of the day with me and she came with me to a couple of meetings I went to.
Kevin (PS21N) [1421] Ah right, that's good.
Sue (PS21K) [1422] And it was more like shadowing me.
Cath (PS21P) [1423] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1424] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1425] And I thought at the time, oh I'd not done anything about it,
Kevin (PS21N) [1426] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1427] I think I'll say to yourself and to Bill, students in future
Kevin (PS21N) [1428] Nice idea that.
Sue (PS21K) [1429] I'll identify a day,
Kevin (PS21N) [1430] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1431] or a co or a half day
Kevin (PS21N) [1432] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1433] that the student can spend with me and I'll
Kevin (PS21N) [1434] That's great.
Sue (PS21K) [1435] try and talk to them in you know in the car
Diane (PS21R) [...]
Sue (PS21K) [1436] or whatever and
Cath (PS21P) [1437] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1438] in between.
Kevin (PS21N) [1439] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1440] But they'd actually get a
Diane (PS21R) [1441] Yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1442] much better view. [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [1443] Yeah, [...] I like that.
Cath (PS21P) [1444] And it's not taking you as much time either.
Sue (PS21K) [1445] No that's right.
Diane (PS21R) [1446] No [...] manage to get on with your work
Sue (PS21K) [1447] And to some extent I think we can do that with new, new
Kevin (PS21N) [1448] In fact
Sue (PS21K) [1449] staff as well.
Kevin (PS21N) [1450] I'm wondering whether we ought to do that with trainees anyway.
[1451] In
Sue (PS21K) [1452] Yeah
Kevin (PS21N) [1453] while they're just you know whatever
Sue (PS21K) [1454] Do a bit more
Kevin (PS21N) [1455] whatever happens today
Sue (PS21K) [...]
Kevin (PS21N) [1456] you're with that person.
Sue (PS21K) [1457] Yeah.
Diane (PS21R) [1458] Yeah.
[1459] And similarly Jackie
Bill (PS21L) [1460] You reckon?
[1461] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1462] you know who
Kevin (PS21N) [1463] Mm.
Diane (PS21R) [1464] it must, she gets a lot of demand doesn't she really?
Kevin (PS21N) [1465] Yeah so I ask an E O, a C O, Jackie and all the different sort of sorts
Sue (PS21K) [1466] Me.
Kevin (PS21N) [1467] of people in the office to do, to offer me one day for work shadowing a
Sue (PS21K) [1468] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1469] student.
Cath (PS21P) [1470] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1471] And they just work shadow for two weeks.
Cath (PS21P) [1472] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1473] And bingo.
Sue (PS21K) [1474] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1475] [...] interesting that isn't it?
Sue (PS21K) [1476] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1477] Well yeah
Kevin (PS21N) [1478] Oh
Cath (PS21P) [1479] because if you've got
Kevin (PS21N) [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1480] somebody, again like you say to er some of the students that say, can we come in on some of your interviews.
Kevin (PS21N) [1481] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1482] That's fine if you say yes, but your client comes in, you forget all about Joe Bloggs sat at the back
Sue (PS21K) [1483] Yeah.
Kevin (PS21N) [1484] Mm.
[1485] Mm
Cath (PS21P) [1486] And before you realize it you're halfway through your interview, and [whispering] you think, Oh God [] .
Sue (PS21K) [1487] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1488] Whereas if they're with you.
Kevin (PS21N) [1489] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1490] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1491] And they
Kevin (PS21N) [1492] And they watch you through lunch they
Sue (PS21K) [1493] Mm.
Kevin (PS21N) [1494] they watch you writing up, they watch you doing all the other discussions and stuff and they just sort of go with you.
Sue (PS21K) [1495] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1496] As opposed to going in for just the interviews.
Cath (PS21P) [1497] That's right.
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1498] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [1499] Actually that would be a better representation of what it's like to be the [...]
Cath (PS21P) [1500] A I was going to say they'd probably get a more realistic [...]
Diane (PS21R) [1501] Yes they would.
Cath (PS21P) [1502] And I think it's less
Sue (PS21K) [1503] Yeah.
Cath (PS21P) [1504] demanding on on
Kevin (PS21N) [1505] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1506] the people, because you know normally if a student comes to see me, I sit down and have an hour and half's discussion
Diane (PS21R) [1507] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1508] with them.
Diane (PS21R) [1509] Mm.
Sue (PS21K) [1510] Mm.
Cath (PS21P) [1511] Which is not perhaps a very good use of time.
Bill (PS21L) [1512] The only trouble is when you're doing your administration and some days you know y you may have to really get stuck in
Diane (PS21R) [1513] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1514] and what are they gonna do, just sit and watch you
Cath (PS21P) [1515] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1516] writing?
Diane (PS21R) [1517] Mm.
Bill (PS21L) [1518] You feel
Diane (PS21R) [1519] That's right.
[1520] yeah.
Sue (PS21K) [1521] You've got to pick your day.
Bill (PS21L) [1522] that the day you choose
Unknown speaker (KLXPSUNK) [1523] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1524] [...] got to be more active
Diane (PS21R) [1525] Yeah.
Bill (PS21L) [1526] rather than writing.